The Return-to-Office Backfire: Why Scare Tactics Don’t Work

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:18:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife. Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:18:15 - 00:00:20:06
Wayne Turmel
Hi, Marisa. How the heck are you?

00:00:20:10 - 00:00:22:00
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00:00:22:02 - 00:00:30:14
Wayne Turmel
I am really, really well. Looking forward to this conversation nation, because we have been talking about it internally at work for like a week.

00:00:30:17 - 00:00:51:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Right. So for all of you listening today, we're actually going to be talking about scare tactics and ways that we are actually being scared back into going into the office. So there's been a lot of news that's come out in the last week or so. I know that we've been talking about it internally at work. We hear this concept about the war on remote work and work from home is ending.

00:00:51:14 - 00:01:07:07
Marisa Eikenberry
And is remote work a thing of the past, which we both know that it's not. And as we say frequently on the show, remote work didn't start in 2020 and it's not going to end because the powers that be decided that it was over. So, Wayne, do you want to start with this New York Post article that we talked about the other day?

00:01:07:08 - 00:01:39:07
Wayne Turmel
This is this warms the cockles of my heart because lately I've been cutting businesses a lot of slack and saying, no, there are reasons to go back to the office. Like I've been trying to be very gracious, gracious about this. And then this happened, the short version, and we will have a link to this in the show notes at longdistanceworklife.com and The New York Post ran an article a couple of weeks ago.

00:01:39:09 - 00:01:47:12
Wayne Turmel
But what started it is a furniture company in the UK did research and you've.

00:01:47:12 - 00:01:48:00
Marisa Eikenberry
That’s a good way to put it.

00:01:48:00 - 00:02:11:12
Wayne Turmel
If you can’t see the air quotes you can certainly hear them and basically said this is what if we continue to work from home, we are going to look like by the year 2100. And they had this avatar named Anna and Anna. I didn't realize they had work from home coal mines, but apparently this is what she got because she looked awful.

00:02:11:12 - 00:02:29:08
Wayne Turmel
And there are certain things you can imagine, like the eyes are red and sunken because she's been staring at screens too long and, you know, she hasn't been getting up to exercise. So there's a potbelly. But they were not kind. In this particular video simulation.

00:02:29:14 - 00:02:33:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. I didn't realize that working from home meant my skin was all going to sag.

00:02:33:18 - 00:02:55:05
Wayne Turmel
Oh, your skin is going to sag. Anna apparently does her work from her bed with half eaten food sitting around her and a laptop not even on a bed desk. Yeah, on the bed. And she basically looks like she should have Carrie Fisher chained to her.

00:02:55:07 - 00:02:57:21
Marisa Eikenberry
She looks like the epitome of goblin mode.

00:02:57:23 - 00:03:10:19
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, it's really, really unflattering for poor Anna. You know, at first I kind of laugh and I went, Well, of course they're going to do that because this is done by a company that sells office equipment.

00:03:10:21 - 00:03:13:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. They're trying to get people to come back.

00:03:13:08 - 00:03:38:20
Wayne Turmel
People need to go back to the office because who else are they going to sell to? Right. And this is part of a larger pattern of people trying to scare essentially people back to work. The most famous example lately was Jamie Dimon’s keynote in Australia from JPMorgan Chase, who said, this is nonsense. We are banking, this is how it's done.

00:03:38:22 - 00:04:06:05
Wayne Turmel
Get your butts to the office. We're not going to fire you if you choose flexibility. But you have taken yourself off the career track and you are just on the work track and that's how it's going to go. And two months later, of course, the rumblings are people are quitting, people are not applying in the numbers that they're used to, having people apply to them, too.

00:04:06:05 - 00:04:15:19
Wayne Turmel
Right. You know, there are consequences to this. The problem, when people take these kind of draconian steps is the inevitably backfires.

00:04:15:21 - 00:04:16:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:16:15 - 00:04:35:08
Wayne Turmel
And it backfires for a couple of reasons. It seems to me. And, you know, feel free. I mean, what would you do if somebody said this to you? Right. The first thing is, well, when we hired you, you were expected to come into the office and nothing has changed, to which the whole world says, Oh, really?

00:04:35:09 - 00:04:39:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I was sorry. The last three years suggest otherwise.

00:04:39:03 - 00:05:03:09
Wayne Turmel
Seems to me a lot to change. And and so some of that is is true. There are also reports there was a big thing in Fortune and you expect this from fortune. It's like with anything in the news you need to consider the source and where the information comes from. Fortune magazine is Fortune 500, very establishment, New York centric, whatever.

00:05:03:15 - 00:05:20:11
Wayne Turmel
And they're saying, no, no, no,.You know how for the last years we've been saying people have actually been just as productive or more productive. Now, magically, they are 30% less productive working from all CFOs. And people are grabbing this information and waving it in the air going, Aha, told you.

00:05:20:13 - 00:05:35:01
Marisa Eikenberry
I had somebody do that on Twitter with me today. And I was like, “And if you also look at that article, it will also tell you that part of the reason why there is an issue is because they don't know what they're doing. They don't know how to manage the team. There's communication issues. It's like, Oh, crazy. We teach all of those things.”

00:05:35:04 - 00:05:37:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Those are all fixable problems.

00:05:37:16 - 00:06:14:23
Wayne Turmel
They are. I mean, yes, you can certainly come to the Kevin Eikenberry Group and we would love to have that conversation with you, dear listener. But I think that speaks to the larger issue, which is, is the lack of collaboration, is the lack of productivity, is the kind of shirking responsibility a function of people working from home? Is it a function of the workers kind of the nuts are running the asylum kind of approach, or is it a failure of leadership?

00:06:15:00 - 00:06:48:01
Wayne Turmel
And when we talk about a failure of leadership, we talk about things like have the expectations been expressed? Are the realist patients, are the expectations realistic, exact right. If you're comparing productivity to the beginning of the pandemic, it probably is that because of the beginning of the pandemic, people had zero boundaries and they were actually working way more hours and it settled down to where they have now figured out whatever their schedule is going to be.

00:06:48:03 - 00:06:56:23
Wayne Turmel
Right? So if you're measuring productivity against 18 months ago or two years ago, it probably is down a little bit.

00:06:57:01 - 00:07:13:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, in real quick before you move on, like I'm noticing that in a lot of these articles, they are citing studies for 2020, not just because of like work hours and things like that, but it's also like, you know, oh, well, in 2020 we did a survey and and people that were working from home had had a really bad mental health experience.

00:07:13:05 - 00:07:31:10
Marisa Eikenberry
And it was like, of course they did. We all did like you, like we're pros at this. And I struggled. Why? Because I wasn't used to working in the same room with my husband because the world was on fire outside like 2020 is not a good representation of what remote work is or was.

00:07:31:12 - 00:07:59:04
Wayne Turmel
Or let's assume that that shouldn't be the baseline for anything. But but to your point, the other reason for that is this research. Ah, lag involved lagging indicators, right? We're just now getting the numbers from 2021. It takes time to gather, collate, process and look at the numbers. So the numbers are always lagging behind where the current state is.

00:07:59:06 - 00:08:00:01
Marisa Eikenberry
What makes sense.

00:08:00:03 - 00:08:32:19
Wayne Turmel
What isn't lagging behind is the employment numbers and the number of people voting with their feet. And I want to be careful while we're talking about this, that we are not talking about legitimate requests for time in the office. We are not talking about we are talking about going so far overboard in painting a picture of doom and gloom that you are setting yourself up for tension with your employees that do not need to exist.

00:08:32:21 - 00:08:38:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. I mean, to your point, earlier, you mentioned Jamie ‘Demon’ like or Dimon, I think.

00:08:38:23 - 00:08:43:03
Wayne Turmel
Nice Freudian slip. Thank you. Nicely done.

00:08:43:05 - 00:08:45:17
Marisa Eikenberry
My bad. That was legitimately not intentional.

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:48:08
Wayne Turmel
That's why it's a Freudian slip.

00:08:48:10 - 00:09:05:16
Marisa Eikenberry
But anyway, but asking the managing directors back to the office five days a week, why does it have to be five days a week? And your gut instinct of, well, this is how, you know, the brainstorming discussions and impromptu meetings and like, you know, all of those things suck actually.

00:09:05:18 - 00:09:24:08
Wayne Turmel
Well, and it's two martini lunches. And, you know, there's lots of things that happen when people are in the office and they're not all brilliant. And some of this is legit pining for the before times. I can blame nobody for wanting to pretend the last couple of years of not happened.

00:09:24:10 - 00:09:25:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:09:25:06 - 00:09:53:15
Wayne Turmel
I can blame nobody for that. That's a mental health coping mechanism and I understand that and we're looking forward to what's next and how are we going to run our company and how are we going to become an employer of choice? And and there are very real issues to be addressed. One of the most important things and I interviewed Phil Simon, the author of The Nine Tectonic Forces Reshaping Work.

00:09:53:16 - 00:10:22:04
Wayne Turmel
And if you get a chance to read that book, do it. But one of the things that he kind of low key highlighted, what is super important is what are the metrics when people are saying productivity is down defined is what? Right. I mean, if I have a call center and I expect people to handle X number of calls a day or handle X number of tickets, that's a legitimate assuming it's a legitimate, realistic number to start with, of course.

00:10:22:04 - 00:10:24:01
Wayne Turmel
But that's a legitimate metric.

00:10:24:03 - 00:10:26:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. If it's down, it's down, right?

00:10:26:08 - 00:10:55:02
Wayne Turmel
If it's down, if people aren't servicing enough customers, if call times have gotten so much longer, that's a legitimate thing. Now, is that a function of being from home? Is that a function of not being properly coached and trained? Is that a function of. I haven't spoken to that employee since the last numbers came out. Right. Which means I'm not coaching them and I'm not developing them and I'm not giving them feedback on their performance.

00:10:55:04 - 00:11:04:11
Wayne Turmel
So the metrics that we choose to measure productivity and unfortunate way they are not easy to come up with.

00:11:04:13 - 00:11:09:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I mean, I would say productivity, but to your point, like, what does it mean?

00:11:09:12 - 00:11:26:07
Wayne Turmel
Right? And the problem is that the minute we measure something that then becomes the standard. So if it's are you logged on and do you stay available to your coworkers all day, that becomes the metric.

00:11:26:09 - 00:11:29:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Which is great. But you could also do that and be watching Netflix all day.

00:11:29:07 - 00:11:41:16
Wayne Turmel
Do Exactly. If you know, if you've got your little mouse jingle or you've got keystroke software, and for every keystroke monitoring software, somebody in their basement comes up with a way to beat it.

00:11:41:18 - 00:11:42:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, of course.

00:11:42:11 - 00:11:48:09
Wayne Turmel
Right. And and we've talked before about kind of, you know, workplace theater.

00:11:48:11 - 00:11:48:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:11:48:20 - 00:12:23:04
Wayne Turmel
This notion that I will pretend to be available all day and you will pretend that everything is fine. All right. So we really, really, really need to get smart, not just about creating the metrics, but stating expectations and explaining why they matter and are these the metrics that are really important? And honestly, we are in a period of chaos where a lot of the metrics that we've used in the past just don't make sense.

00:12:23:06 - 00:12:25:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay. So can you describe some of those?

00:12:25:19 - 00:12:42:12
Wayne Turmel
Well, I'm I'm talking about things like, you know, logging in at a certain time, logging off at a certain time, being available. Right. Participating in meetings, for example. Participating in meetings is an expectation of the job.

00:12:42:14 - 00:12:43:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00:12:43:16 - 00:13:11:17
Wayne Turmel
Why do you have any business in that meeting? Do you legitimately have things to contribute? Does it matter that a 9:00 meeting in Indianapolis is a 6:00 meeting for me and maybe I don't need to be there or I don't need to be there at that time. I can watch the recording and and still contribute asynchronously to things.

00:13:11:22 - 00:13:16:02
Marisa Eikenberry
And does it need to be a meeting at all, or could it have been a video for everyone?

00:13:16:04 - 00:13:24:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Does it have to be a meeting at all those types of things? We're still figuring them out and we all need to cut each other some slack.

00:13:24:19 - 00:13:25:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:13:25:13 - 00:13:53:08
Wayne Turmel
You know, if I have. I mean, I keep doing the math and it disturbs me, but basically I am 30 years, give or take, into my big boy management career. I have developed some habits. I have developed some default assumptions about how things happen. Some of them may still be valid, some of them may just be the result of being raised by wolves.

00:13:53:13 - 00:14:16:03
Wayne Turmel
Some of them might. I mean, there's lots of reasons why I think the way I think and what we need to do senior leadership managers, team members, we need to sit down and look at what is the work that needs to be done, who does the work, when does the work need to happen to achieve the outputs that we want to have?

00:14:16:03 - 00:14:23:13
Wayne Turmel
And if we focus our metrics on outputs, it becomes less important what happens where.

00:14:23:15 - 00:14:24:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:14:24:05 - 00:14:36:08
Wayne Turmel
As long as the outputs get met and if the outputs require being in the same place at the same time. If I'm great clips, I need to be in the store where people's heads are in order to make this happen.

00:14:36:11 - 00:14:48:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, there might be some things that you need to come to the office a couple of times a week. You know, we've talked about this several times that we are not anti office, we are pro remote work and those are two very different things.

00:14:48:04 - 00:15:10:12
Wayne Turmel
They are and that kind of gets lost in the in the discussion. So, you know, we've been talking about the scare tactics and I always come back and I know your eyes roll every time I do this. I always come back to the Spider-Man point, which is kind of, you know, with great power comes great responsibility.

00:15:10:12 - 00:15:11:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Okay.

00:15:11:15 - 00:15:27:09
Wayne Turmel
And this applies to the workers. We are at a new age where we have more flexibility than ever before. I don't like to say the word earn it, but we have been like, screw it up.

00:15:27:11 - 00:15:28:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:15:28:05 - 00:15:47:08
Wayne Turmel
And that's going to take maybe a little more effort. It's going to take a little different focus. It's going to take some training and learning to do things maybe better or different or faster than we did. And so it's not all on the employers. We need to step up from our end as well.

00:15:47:10 - 00:16:04:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. And I think also, you know, for our leaders and stuff, when we see these scare tactic articles that come out and if they have this moment of, oh, no, I have to bring everybody back to the office, look at who did the study, because it's probably a corporate real estate agent or in this case an office furniture person or.

00:16:04:13 - 00:16:05:22
Wayne Turmel
Or I mean, the case.

00:16:06:00 - 00:16:07:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Lab. Well, somebody who's.

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:37:00
Wayne Turmel
Anything coming from Coldwell Banker or. Yeah, see, Ellis, Anything. You got to recognize that in major cities, the buildings are still occupied, but they're at 50% capacity on average, right? So even if they are having people come back to the office on any given day, 50% of the offices are empty and the deaths are empty overtime. That's unsustainable.

00:16:37:06 - 00:16:43:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, of course. And that's why, you know, some companies have, you know, downsized their office spaces or things of that nature, I guess.

00:16:43:13 - 00:17:07:17
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, it's easier at first blush to wave the wand and say, okay, let's get back everybody in so we can look around and feel better about ourselves. But ultimately they're going to have to be over time, some very hard choices made. So the return to office, the scramble to get everybody back is a needed three step to the long term considerations that are going to happen.

00:17:07:19 - 00:17:28:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, they're treating the symptoms, not the problem. Well, Wayne, thank you so much for this discussion. I had a lot of fun and I hope our listeners got a real kick out of it, too. And so, listeners, thank you so much for listening to the Long-Distance Worklife. For show notes, transcripts and other resources make sure to visit longdistanceworklife.com if you haven't yet subscribe to our show so you won't miss any future episodes. While you're there

00:17:28:22 - 00:17:44:05
Marisa Eikenberry
be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our shownotes. And let us know you listen to this episode or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode, including pet peeves. We'd still love to hear yours.

00:17:44:07 - 00:18:01:11
Marisa Eikenberry
If you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long-Distance Team. You can learn more about the book at LongDistanceTeamBook.com. Thanks for joining us. As Wayne likes to say, don’t let the weasels get you down.