Wayne: Yeah, it's really interesting, actually. The last couple of years has created some havoc. And as we're returning to the office and and this is information coming to us from our clients you know, it was originally when people got sent home during the COVID Diaspora, we got- they said, well, it's just like working in the office except.

Marisa: And if you've never worked in the office...

Wayne: Well, that's the problem is over the last two years, we have brought in a whole group of people who maybe don't have that experience.

Marisa: Yeah. Or they've only done an internship. So it's not quite the same thing.

Wayne: Yeah, exactly. Right. And so, you know, you can't say, well, it's just like when you were in the office and they go, Yeah, OK.

Marisa: Exactly.

Wayne: And it's interesting because this often falls under the generational differences problem, right? And the grumpy old guys like me are like these darn kids don't know how to, you know, how things are done and they don't know how things are done in the office and and we're not wrong.

Marisa: But how can they know if they've never been there?

Wayne: Yeah.

Marisa: So I think we're not giving them enough grace either.

Wayne: When you're absolutely not giving them enough grace. That's that's a grumpy old man problem.

Marisa: Yeah. "OK, Boomer." Kind of deal.

Wayne: Going back to the dawn of time, right? But it's a real thing. And one of the ways of combating this that organizations are doing, which makes a lot of sense, is that they are allowing remote and flexible work based on how long you've been around. So when you are new to the organization, we're going to want to keep you close to the mothership.

We're going to want you to meet people. You're going to want you to see how things are done here. We're going to want you by mentoring and by just osmosis. It's amazing how much stuff we suck up out of the air around us that nobody ever says out loud. But if you work here, you just know.

Marisa: Yeah, you figure it out.

Wayne: We talk about culture a lot, and culture is a $10 word for it. This is how we do stuff here.

Marisa: Yes.

Wayne: The problem is that here the definition of here has taken a beating.

Marisa: Yeah.

Wayne: Do you mean this is how we do it in the office at 8021 Westover. Or do we mean this is how we do it as the Kevin Eikenberry group as an organization. And a lot of this hasn't been planned. I mean, leaders were thrown into the deep end. We're trying to make it work. We're hiring people.

You know, the people we're hiring know technology better than we do in some cases. So we assume that along with knowing how to use the technology, they know how to use the technology. And that's not necessarily true.

Marisa: Right. You've talked about this in previous episodes that. Yeah, just because you know how to how to technically use a program, email, whatever, doesn't mean that you know how to use it effectively in an organization or professionally.

Wayne: Exactly. Right. And so if we think about new people coming into the office and working from home, right?

Marisa: Yes.

Wayne: When somebody comes into the office for the first time, they often have to adjust. What is my working schedule like? It's a little bit unfair to take somebody who has never worked nine to five and let them send their own work schedule.

Marisa: Right. They don't really have anything to compare it to.

Wayne: You don't have anything to compare it to. You don't know what works real well and what doesn't. You don't know you're probably betting that more things can be done asynchronously than probably can fair. And that's assuming that you know what you're doing and you don't have the kind of panicky questions that newbies at any job are going to have, let alone people who are brand new to the workforce.

So I'm actually fairly sympathetic to organizations that say no, when you come to work for us, you're going to start in the office and then we're eventually going to take the reins off. And assuming your productivity is up and your professionalism is maintained and all of that stuff, we're going to then let you have more flexibility and get your life back.

But we want you fairly close at the beginning.

Marisa: Right? That absolutely makes sense there.

Wayne: I have a lot of sympathy for that. It does create an issue, though, when you are hiring people who are remote first. You know, as we start to the beautiful thing about being able to hire remote workers is that you are not bound by geography.

Marisa: Yes.

Wayne: Right. If the best available person is in Denver or Belize or whatever. Right. And more and more people are choosing to be digital nomads that's great. The thing is, what a lot of people are telling us is when we're hiring remote first we are not taking kids out of school.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: We are refusing to hire anybody who hasn't already worked remotely for a couple of years.

Marisa: Yeah. So that way they kind of know what they're doing a little bit.

Wayne: And so we've created this black hole in the middle and it's you know, it's the time honored tradition. We only hire people with experience. Well, how do you get experience if you don't?

Marisa: Exactly.

Wayne: And this is a very big deal if you're talking about diversity and inclusion and hiring nontraditional people in your organization, yes. Whether those are people with physical disabilities, you know, people who culturally have not been part of your organization, and that's a very real thing.

Marisa: Yeah, I've seen a lot of people talk about that recently as far as inclusivity goes, especially with people who, you know, have some sort of physical disability or mental disability or something that working from home or working remotely is more inclusive to them, even though they're not in the office all the time. So you might think that's the other way around.

Wayne: Yeah. Theoretically, remote work should be more inclusive. The fact of the matter is, though, if you are concerned about cultural fit, if you are concerned that they need to have X amount of experience you are no longer going to people who aren't already in that job pool, which defeats the whole purpose.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: So how do we then help these darn kids who don't know what it's like to work in an office? And we forget, for those of us that have done this our whole lives, that it is a completely unnatural experience. And we need to learn things like doors opened, doors closed, you know, when you just walk down the hall and bother somebody in accounting and when you go through chain of command.

Marisa: When do you pick up the phone versus the Slack message?

Wayne: Exactly right.

Those types of things which you often pick up kind of in the air or you start to do something. And old Bob, who's been there 20 years you know, gives you the hairy eyeball and you go, Oh, maybe I shouldn't do that, right?

Marisa: But you don't know any better.

Wayne: But so what happens in this is the point I think that we're trying to get to with this question is it's important that you work with your new employees to say These are the things that absolutely need to happen. How are we going to quickly involve you in the real work of the team and help you get to know people and get you comfortable to the point where it's OK to ask people questions and people will be proactive about mentoring you?

Marisa: Yes.

Wayne: And that kind of thing, I think and I know we've talked about this before, but I'm also not foolish enough to think that everybody slavishly listens to every one of these episodes.

Marisa: Fair.

Wayne: One of the things that we do at the Kevin Eikenberry group that to me is so natural and so many people don't is when somebody joins our organization, the first thing they do, their first job is to individually reach out to every member of the team and set up a half hour. Webcam conversation has to be a webcam conversation, and it has to be with every member of the team, regardless if you're going to work with that person or not.

Marisa: Absolutely. And well, and some of us who I know, I work in Indianapolis, so when I started, I was in Indianapolis. And so there are a few of those people. I actually did those conversations face to face. But we're also talking about pre-COVID times.

Wayne: Well, and you know, when you can do that, the problem with the face to face piece is that it usually happens much earlier than the rest of it. Yeah, I mean, think about what happens we have a team meeting. Everybody's in the building. We have a team. Hey, everybody, Marisa's joined the team. Everybody say hi to Marisa and everybody says, "Hi Marisa" and then they scatter and some are working in the office and some are working remotely.

And Marisa may never talk to the people who work remotely until they come back into the office.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: How do we intentionally jump start those connections? How do we intentionally identify the people that Marisa is going to be comfortable going to? I can assign somebody as a mentor, right? Oh, Bob's been here a million years. We're going to make Bob her mentor.

Marisa: But if we don't click, that could be a problem.

Wayne: But you don't click, you know, for whatever reason, right? Right. And it doesn't have to be anything traumatic, really, does it? You just don't.

Marisa: We just might have different communication styles.

Wayne: Exactly. Right. So, you know, makes sure that the more people you're interacting with as richly as possible and then identify who are the people. You know, one of the things that managers don't do is debrief those conversations. So what did you learn? And you're going, what is Wayne's problem? That's where I or you know, I really like Angie.

What's her story? And that helps me as the manager to think, aha, maybe we need to foster this relationship, which I wouldn't normally think of.

Marisa: Yeah. Because clearly those people click. Yeah, absolutely.

Wayne: And also talk to the people who, you know, she seems really but she doesn't have a lot of experience in this or she was asking a lot of questions about a certain topic that should tell me a ha. We need to bolster her experience and her training in that particular area. It's really interesting when people join the workforce, they come in at all kinds of different places some have.

I was lucky my mother was a secretary back in the days when there were secretaries and she taught me what it is to work in an office. Even though I'd never worked in an office, I knew how to take a phone message.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: Right. Even at home. We answered the phone. Wayne Turmel speaking, Who do you wish to speak to.

Marisa: So you were ready.

Wayne: And you knew when you take a phone message, this is what I knew, that when I got into the office, I was like, OK, I'm going to take a phone message.

Marisa: Yeah.

Wayne: If you if that wasn't part of the air you breathed.

Marisa: Then you'd be at a disadvantage for sure.

Wayne: Be at a disadvantage. And then people think you're an idiot, which is not fair, right? You can't you know, you can't say a bear is smarter than a fish because a fish can't climb a tree.

Marisa: Right. Kind of in a similar fashion. You know, in your case, like you learn how to work in offices beforehand, like I watched my mom work in nontraditional environments and small businesses my entire life. And so for me, you know, thankfully, I started working in an organization that technically is a little bit nontraditional. I went to the office.

The office is a house. Nobody lives there, but it's a house, you know, and so some of those little cultural things, but not corporate things I was already used to anyway. It's a different thought process. It's on the opposite spectrum, but it is kind of similar in a way.

Wayne: So I think to, you know, make this practical for people because they're not that fascinated with our childhood furniture. Although why? Why not? I say I think if we're going to make this practical for people, a couple of things. One is find out what is what experience do people have working in the kind of environment that you work in.

Ask them what their concerns are yes. You know, during the interview process, having the interview process may not be the right time necessarily. Simply because people tend, oh, I have no flaws, you know, what's.

Marisa: Maybe onboarding.

Wayne: What's your biggest flaw? I care too much. Oh.

Marisa: I'm a perfectionist.

Wayne: Yeah, you know, it's not. But we've been trained to answer these questions. But as part of the intake process, you don't take the time to ask people what has been their experience with. And this is where experience based interviewing is so important it's not just your attitude, it's what have you done? Or in this particular, you know, if you're working on something and you realize that there's a problem, who's your first call?

Gotcha. Right? Those types of things will help set this up. And if you're in h.R. Or learning and development, these are the kinds of trainings that people are going to need and they don't some of it should be done in a class environment, whether that's a virtual or an in-person, because the social learning component is so important and there's so much to be said for learning in cohorts for working across the organization and building relationships and all of that stuff.

But really, as we're bringing in people who don't have that workplace environment, listen for where there are gaps in the knowledge.

Marisa: And maybe also kind of think about what those could be. And, you know, as an example, you know, I've been working for this organization now for eight years but when I hit right around year five, year six, it never occurred to me that I should have been talking to my manager about, Hey, I've been working here for five years now.

Like, you know, do people get more days, more days off at this point, or are there other negotiations that need to happen? That would have never occurred to me because this is my first job. And I had another coworker who had talked to me later and she was like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even think about the fact you wouldn't have even known to ask this.

You know, here's what you need to do next time or something like that. So, I mean, even if they're not, quote unquote, new, you may want to consider those things as well.

Wayne: Well, one of the things that we do and we're near the end of our time is when we set up mentors. We assume that people are only going to need those mentors for the first month month and a half.

Marisa: And even after.

Wayne: And then the mentor gets.

Marisa: Don't know.

Wayne: The mentor gets sprung to go back to work and not have to worry about, you know.

Marisa: Mentor somebody else.

Wayne: And suddenly you're expected to fly instead of doing what I should do is make you somebody else's problem.

Marisa: Yes.

Wayne: Because the mentoring and the learning and the things that we need for our careers and such are ongoing forever. So that's probably if again, if you're taking stuff away and looking in our show notes and you should jolly well be looking on our show notes at longdistanceworklife.com, that's the thing is how long does your mentoring go on?

And, you know, at different stages of people's onboarding and career, do we need to reexamine who does that for that?

Marisa: Absolutely. Yeah, it needs to be an ongoing conversation.

Wayne: Speaking of longdistanceworklife.com, that's where you will find the show notes for this show. You'll also find on that page at the bottom a place to ask questions. And Marisa is actually doing a great job of scanning these every week and picking out the questions that might become one of these ask, me anything kind of interviews so in the meantime, please, like and subscribe.

If you have not yet read The Long-Distance Letter and The Long Distance-Teammate, that's probably a really good place to start. You can buy those Amazon or wherever fine books are sold. You can also reach out to me Wayne@KevinEikenberry.com or Marisa@KevinEikenberry.com. That is this week's episode of The Long-Distance Worklife.

Marisa Anything you want to say before we release people into the wild?

Marisa: I do also want to say that we also have a free video series called Demystifying Demystifying Remote Work, correct?

Wayne: Yes. Yes.

Marisa: It's a four video series. Sorry, I forgot the name for half a second. It's a four video series. It's totally free. We'll also have a link for that in the show notes too, to help you guys continue to live and thrive in a remote and hybrid team.

Wayne: There you go. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next episode.

Wayne: Well, we probably should. The first thing to remember is that we track the buzzwords so you don't have to. Dear listener, I have been in this business in the virtual remote work space well over 15 years and listened to the way things change. I remember when we used to telecommute and before that or after that, it was teleworking.

And the government actually has big binders full of telework policy that they then had to go in and do a search and replace because now it's work from home or WFA. And one needs to be very careful with the acronyms when you start using those letters in some combination. So there are a bunch of buzzwords that we should probably tackle.

But let's start with remote-first and remote-friendly. Remote-friendly basically means we're open to the idea of people working remotely. It suggests that there is an office, there is a central location, but we've got people that work elsewhere and we do our best to not make it suck.

Marisa: So in a way, it's almost kind of saying we're a hybrid company, kind of.

Wayne: Well, you're willing to be a hybrid company. Remote-friendly kind of presumes that the default is the office. But we will still love you if you don't come in every day and you work somewhere else. We're going to talk about hybrid, I suspect, in just a minute. Remote-first basically means we are set up as a remote company.

Marisa: So the primary is remote.

Wayne: It's primary remote. We hire people with that notion. We build our systems around that. There may or may not be an office where a couple of people sit, maybe an admin or two, but basically we are a remote company. And where you see that a lot is in engineering and especially I.T., coding, those types of companies.

Marisa: Yeah, I just saw that Robinhood recently advertised it. I say recently it may have been a few months ago but that they are now advertising themselves as a remote-first company.

Wayne: And it's interesting because just for the record, for Canadians, we are talking about the banking app, not about the flower company, Robinhood Flower being very near and dear to my heart.

That's a really good example because there are certain industries. I'm trying to remember, I think it was Bloomberg just did a report on which industries are more likely to have remote work. And if you look at financial services and I.T. services, it's well over 75% of the jobs associated with those tasks could be done remotely.

Marisa: Gotcha.

Wayne: Which is interesting because I.T. companies have embraced it and financial services companies have kind of freaked out and rebelled, even though they have the largest percentage of jobs that theoretically could be done remotely. I mean, as we've said before, if your job is fight traffic, get to the office, hang your coat over the chair, sit at your computer, get up at the end of the day, pick up your coat, get back in the car.

There is a pretty good chance you could do that remote at least part of the time. But that's the difference between remote-friendly and remote-first. Remote-first recruits sets up systems, processes. They assume that everybody's going to be remote. And if you want to come into the office and say hi to people, that's great. But that's not the way that they are built.

Marisa: So I guess as an add-on question, and I know that companies like Buffer are like this, what's the buzzword now for a company who's entirely remote? Or is there a buzzword for it yet?

Wayne: They basically have embraced remote-first.

Marisa: Okay, because I know that companies like Buffer, I think WordPress might be also and have been since way before pandemic even happened, but they were remote only. There is no office to go to. Everybody's remote.

Wayne: Yeah, absolutely. And so they've embraced- This week the word is remote-first.

Marisa: Gotcha. I know I've seen it a lot more lately.

Wayne: If you look at our good friend Chris Dyer, who has been on VLC and will probably be on this show eventually.

Marisa: For those that don't know, VLC is our conference Virtual LeaderCon, which we do once a year and we'll do again in September of this year,  2022.

Wayne: And Chris has built several virtual companies, and they used to be virtual companies. That was the buzzword. Right?

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: And all of a sudden, he started using with his company, and I can't remember the name of it right now, or I would say it. [Chris Dyer's company is PeopleG2.]

Marisa: We'll make sure it's in the show notes. Yeah.

Wayne: Make sure it's on the show notes. Thank you. All of a sudden, you know, he was a we are a remote-first company, so that's the buzzword du jour.

Marisa: Okay. So it's getting companies encompassing both processes, essentially.

Wayne: Yeah. But it's a different mindset.

Marisa: Absolutely.

Wayne: It's a different mindset. It's, you know, as we choose these buzzwords. Right. Telecommute. Presumed that you were kind of somewhere else, but you were coming into the office that there was a central hub.

Marisa: Okay.

Wayne: And that's where the buzzwords can get a little muddled. And the most muddled word at the moment is hybrid.

Marisa: Okay. That makes sense.

Wayne: A hybrid is getting, you know, it's kind of like the Princess Bride. You use that word a lot, but I don't think it means what you think it means. You know, hybrid often gets conflated with blended or flexible work or a bunch of other terms.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: That basically imply what you had said earlier on. This notion that there is an office and some people are in the office and some people are out of the office. And that's kind of what it means. It usually means that there's some mix of that.

Marisa: Okay.

Wayne: What we need to do, though, I think when we focus on this notion of the office and then others.

Marisa: Mm hmm.

Wayne: It does a couple of disservices and people that are listening to that. Please. You know, we'd love your comments and your questions about that. The challenge is and if you've read A World Without Email by Cal Newport, you know, his thing is the reason we get in trouble with too much email and too many meetings and Zoom Fatigue and all of this stuff is we're trying to recreate the office environment.

Marisa: Right?

Wayne: When we do that, we create constrictions around time. Yeah. I joke that in America, if you live on the West Coast, you better be an early morning person because the sun revolves around the Statue of Liberty and everything is based on East Coast time, no matter where you are. Well, that kind of takes out the flexibility. If you need to be available during East Coast hours.

That's not true flexibility. If you default to the home office in your systems, you know, yes, you can work anywhere you want. But as so many organizations used to say quietly and now places like Morgan Stanley are saying, the quiet parts out loud. Right? If you can't be bothered coming into the office we will continue to hire you.

And you can do good work, but don't expect to be promoted and don't expect to be on the fast track.

Marisa: Which is so unfortunate now that we're getting more and more data all the time about productivity is going up. And some of these people who are working from home and I realize it's not everybody but some people who are working from home are thriving and doing so much more work, so much more engagement than they ever did when they were in the office.

Wayne: Yeah, far be it from me to defend senior leaders ever. That is so not my default position.

Marisa: That's a great place to start.

Wayne: I am at heart a bomb throwing radical who's just found himself with a job title. But the challenge is you can't take something that has made a lot of people really rich and really successful and has entire cities built around it. Mm hmm. And say, Oh, we don't need that anymore and expect everybody to be cool with it.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: And, you know, you can't just say, "Hi, London and New York, it's been real. But, you know..."

Marisa: Yeah, absolutely.

Wayne: I'm moving to Montana, and here's my IP address. You can't really do that.

Marisa: Right. And that's some of what you talked to Laurel about in the last episode, too.

Wayne: Yeah. This notion that it's all going to be utopian and whatever. And that's the thing about hybrid work is hybrid started out being just this messy blend. And I guess that's what that kind of traditional arrangement is, is a blended approach, a true hybrid. If you if you look at the biologic definition of a hybrid is it's two species that are brought together and they actually create a new species that is capable of breathing among itself and.

Marisa: Doing other things.

Wayne: Doing other things. And so that's the Holy Grail. Now, for companies that want to have a physical presence and want to be remote-friendly.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: Right. They're not going to be remote-first as long as they're building buildings and investing in infrastructure, physical infrastructure.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: But there's this new thing that we have to find ways to. For example, right now, we have an overreliance on synchronous communication. The reason that I have to be functional at seven in the morning is because people insist on being online at seven in the morning. And if I'm not there, I'm losing out.

Marisa: Mm hmm.

Wayne: Are there ways to collaborate and meet and share information asynchronous so that the amount of time we actually have to spend connected, talking, holding meetings, doing that kind of thing, it's a different form of workflow. Right. It's a different expectation on how people should work.

Marisa: Absolutely.

Wayne: And it's a brand new thing. And like all hybrids, it hasn't existed before. We may do and some people have said we're going to be remote-friendly. And others have said, well, we're going to do this blended thing and we're going to. And what happens when you blend like that is the default goes to the office, almost always the default right to the office, the systems, the times that you meet.

Marisa: Where the meetings happen.

Wayne: Who gets a promotion where you hold the meetings? When you do get together, where is it?

Marisa: The birthday celebrations.

Wayne: You know, there's cake in the break room. It's a long drive to the break room. So you don't get cake or you don't get to eat cake with everybody else.

Marisa: Mm hmm.

Wayne: And then by the way, the weasels in the office get cake on their birthday, and I don't. And so they, like, you know, mom likes them better than they like me.

Marisa: Absolutely. Almost breeds a feeling of resentment, too.

Wayne: Well, it can. And we actually should do a conversation about that dynamic, right? Yes. Don't actually create something new. What does that? Because there's a whole show and conversation about those potential landmines, but that when we talk about hybrid, we're still trying to define it.

When we eventually define it, it will become a buzzword and then be out of fashion in about a week. And we'll have to find something new because that's the way it is with everything.

Marisa: So given this given this, you know, hybrid, remote-first and all that, and I know that we've talked a little bit about when companies maybe should use certain options, but I guess if companies have not necessarily said which option that they should use yet, what should they be thinking about? As they're trying to create their remote-friendly, remote-first, hybrid, blended, whatever, as they're trying to think through those processes and figuring out, okay, this is the word we're using.

Wayne: Come back to me in a year when The Long-Distance Team comes out and.

Marisa: There we go!

Wayne: We can have this conversation because Kevin and I just finished that book.

Marisa: Love it.

Wayne: Nice plug.

What should they think about? I think it always starts with what is what do we do? What is the job that we do? Right. What are our outpits? Outpits? Outputs. What are the tasks that create those outputs? What are the roles that are necessary to do the tasks that create those outputs? And then once you and I would suggest visually mapping that and then once you've mapped it you start looking at is that a place that needs people co-located or at least synchronous at some time?

Marisa: Okay. That makes sense.

Wayne: And this is not. You mentioned the conversation with Laurel, and we're going to have a link in the show notes to that previous show because I am less rosy about a lot of this and I am less focused on remote-first. Remote-first is great. If you have the kind of company that can do that.

Marisa: Okay.

Wayne: If you have chosen to have a company that can do that, right. There is something to be said about being a small group of people co-located working together in physical proximity. It is not like that is evil and must be destroyed.

Marisa: Absolutely.

Wayne: But it's a choice.

Marisa: Yes.

Wayne: It limits who you recruit. It puts constraints on what you spend money on because you need a location. It it needs to be a conscious decision. And it's not always a wrong one.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: But that's the thing. What is the. It always starts with what is the work? Form follows function. What's the work that needs to be done? Who needs to do it? Then you get to what do those people do and where do they need to be when they do it?

And that is about all the time we have for what could easily be a three beverage conversation.

Marisa: Before we end, though, I do want to ask you. So you mentioned that you're not as rosy about remote-first, which I'll admit surprises me given, you know, the blog posts that you've done, the books that you've written already, and we'll have links to those in the show notes as well. But why are you not remote-first, are you more remote-friendly then?

Wayne: I am very remote-friendly that that is my default position and I have benefited from everything.

Marisa: Absolutely we both have.

Wayne: Right? The fact that Kevin works in Indianapolis. You work in the office with him at least part of the time.

Marisa: Yes.

Wayne: You have a very flexible working arrangement there. And when I was in Chicago, the dynamic was different. I could pop in the car and in 3 hours be in Indianapolis.

Marisa: Very true.

Wayne: Right. I can no longer do that. Without hopping between COVID and the laws of physics. I have not been in Remarkable House in quite some time.

Marisa: Right.

Wayne: I just think here's why I'm not rosy and the reason I'm not rosy about most things, and it's the reason that I am a grumpy old man is I there has never been any system, product or tool invented by humans that they have not managed to make suck.

Marisa: So engineers out there, challenge for you.

Wayne: It's just that everything can be used for good or used for evil, and it can be thoughtfully applied and maximized or you cannot think about it very hard and take the easy way out and get less than optimal results. And that's just the way human beings operate.

Marisa: That makes sense. And I know that you've had some conversations about similar stuff, not only with me, I think also with Pilar recently too, about this idea that we're implementing these technologies without really having any idea of how to implement them. And so it's backfiring.

Wayne: Well, and time is flying away. And this is another conversation that we should definitely have. And we are actually going to have with some of the people who make the technology. We've done it with a Hoyin Cheung at Remo and some others, so we will continue to do that. Which brings us to we really, really, really need to wrap this up.

Thank you for listening to worklife. Long-Distance Worklife Podcast. Please, if you've enjoyed this like and subscribe and most importantly, tell your friends we will have show notes as well as and this is important a place for you to ask your questions. Marisa is coming up with killer questions and I'm digging these conversations, but we want to know what you want to know.

Marisa: Yeah, I'm not the only one out there that has questions. I know that for sure.

Wayne: So on our show notes page is a place to get questions in queue. Please take advantage of that. You can reach Marisa and I at The Kevin Eikenberry Group. Wayne@KevinEikenberry.com. Marisa@KevinEikenberry.com. That's it. Thank you for listening to the Long-Distance Worklife podcast. We really, really, really need to go. Marisa, thanks as always.

Marisa: Thank you for answering my question today.