September 2023 - The Long-Distance Worklife

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Month: September 2023

Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Is Asynchronous Video Killing the Meeting Star?

Marisa and Wayne discuss pet peeves related to remote meetings. They address the issue of team members not turning on their cameras during meetings and the value of having cameras on. Wayne explains that while there are advantages to being on camera, it's important to consider the context and purpose of the meeting. For larger groups, the value of seeing everyone may be limited, but for smaller teams, having cameras on can enhance engagement and collaboration. They also discuss the responsibility of the audience to pay attention and the importance of being present during meetings.

The conversation then shifts to the topic of recording presentations and sending them out for asynchronous viewing. Wayne suggests that while this can be a useful alternative to meetings, it's important for individuals to take responsibility for engaging with the content and not simply ignore it. They also explore the idea of using asynchronous video as a form of communication, highlighting its potential benefits in terms of richness and accessibility.

Key Takeaways

1. Cameras on during meetings can enhance engagement and collaboration in smaller teams.
2. The responsibility of the audience is to pay attention and actively participate in meetings.
3. Asynchronous video can be a valuable form of communication, providing a richer experience than email or written messages.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:19:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife. Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:19:05 - 00:00:20:21
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marisa. How are you?

00:00:20:22 - 00:00:22:05
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00:00:22:07 - 00:00:27:15
Wayne Turmel
I am well, actually, this is I think this is going to be a fun conversation.

00:00:27:17 - 00:00:55:16
Marisa Eikenberry
It usually is when we talk about pet peeves. But that being said, we had some of you send in pet peeves about meeting specifically. And so we're still continuing to dive into those, including in this episode. So I'm going to start with one that we got from Facebook from Brianne and it says It's been three years since the pandemic and I would have better luck demanding that someone procure me a unicorn before getting every single team member on a call with their camera on.

00:00:55:18 - 00:01:10:22
Marisa Eikenberry
So I know that we've talked several times about if it's a town hall kind of situation. Not everybody needs their cameras on. But what about if it's a team of three or four people and you're wanting engagement? Like, what can we do to get cameras on? Should we be trying to get cameras on?

00:01:11:01 - 00:01:26:21
Wayne Turmel
Oh, man, this quest, it's so funny. Before the pandemic, we push and push And push what? Your camera on. Put your camera and get people to put their camera on. And then they did. During the pandemic, some begrudgingly, some willingly. And we were.

00:01:26:21 - 00:01:27:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Lonely.

00:01:27:07 - 00:01:48:01
Wayne Turmel
It's kind of weird because we're desperate for human companionship, and any pork in the storm is fine. But then it's kind of reverted. And I'm going to say there are two parts to this conversation, right? The first part is, are there advantages to being on camera? The answer is, of course there are.

00:01:48:05 - 00:01:49:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:01:49:02 - 00:02:24:23
Wayne Turmel
Right. And it's funny because most people like seeing the other party. They just don't like being on camera. Right now, it is true that the larger the group, the less value there is in seeing everybody, because we are working from home. It's also possibly true that depending on time zones and what's going on in the place that you live and work, that there may be distractions and things going on that don't work really well.

00:02:25:02 - 00:02:56:16
Wayne Turmel
You know, I just got back from the gym. You know, the kids are running around. It's lunchtime and I've got to eat. Nobody needs to see that. All of those things are the kind of excuses that we get. And you need to stop and say, Why don't I want to be on camera? Some of it is, as you know, if I'm trying to present information and out of the corner of my eye, I see four people all kind of answering emails and visibly checking notes.

00:02:56:21 - 00:03:30:11
Wayne Turmel
Well, there are two sides to that coin. The one coin, the one side is, yeah, it's this whole thing is mostly going to be me talking, and it doesn't add a lot of value because most people are going to be passively listening. So do I need to see that? The other side of that, of course, is if you can't be trusted to pay attention and focus when the camera's on, you, what makes you think I am going to trust that you are paying attention when I can't?

00:03:30:13 - 00:03:49:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. To your point, like I have heard about, I don't agree with this, but I have heard about people who, when it is, you know, a town hall type meeting and maybe it's something where they don't have to have cameras on or whatever. They're posting pictures on LinkedIn of, oh, look at me cooking dinner while I'm listening to this town hall or something like that feels weird to me.

00:03:49:09 - 00:03:52:12
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm sorry. And that might be an unpopular opinion.

00:03:52:14 - 00:04:23:05
Wayne Turmel
Well, it gets back to something we spoke about a week or two ago on this very podcast, which what is your responsibility when you are allowed to work from home? You are being asked to do certain things and certain things are inside your bailiwick. I have a kind of rule that if I wouldn't do it in the conference room with everybody there, why would I do it?

00:04:23:07 - 00:04:24:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00:04:24:07 - 00:04:47:14
Wayne Turmel
When I'm working from home, do I you know, if I'm in the conference room, do I check my phone more than I should? Sure. I do. But I'm also there and I'm, you know, at least paying some attention to the person who's speaking. If you are turning off your camera because you don't want to get busted doing something, why are you doing something you don't want to get busted for?

00:04:47:14 - 00:04:49:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Like, use your head.

00:04:49:12 - 00:05:04:04
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, one quick. Oh, somebody sends a teams message and you respond real quick. Nobody cares. Nobody cares about that. What they care about is if you are very obvious, as, like, not paying any attention.

00:05:04:06 - 00:05:04:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:05:04:20 - 00:05:28:09
Wayne Turmel
So this becomes does the camera need to be on for all of this? Right. Is the question. Well, I think that again, where does it add value? Where it adds value is seeing people reading their body language. So on team meetings, for example. I'm a big fan of everybody has their camera on at the beginning, everybody says hello.

00:05:28:14 - 00:05:52:14
Wayne Turmel
Everybody greets everybody. And then as the meeting goes on, you know, if you need to eat, if you have something going on, right, then there's no need to be on camera because it's stressful being on camera for an hour and worrying about where do I put my hands and oh, look, I'm paying attention, but I need to look like I'm paying.

00:05:52:14 - 00:05:58:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Attention, right? Or like I really am writing notes about whatever this is, but I don't want to look like I'm not paying attention. Yeah.

00:05:58:17 - 00:06:25:03
Wayne Turmel
God forbid. I'm actually looking up and referring to something that we're talking about, right? I mean, you are a machine. When we are on meetings, if we just average the dual screens, everybody needs a Marisa anyway in their life. But, you know, if we're talking about something. And so when was that meeting that we had 30 seconds later up in the chat, Marisa will have the answer to that.

00:06:25:04 - 00:06:31:18
Wayne Turmel
She's quite wonderful about that. But if the camera was on her all the time, you see a lot of her looking off.

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:32:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, yeah.

00:06:32:06 - 00:06:33:00
Wayne Turmel
So I do it.

00:06:33:02 - 00:06:39:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Because, you know, I've got a screen here, but I have a screen here too, which is usually where I've got whatever I'm looking up.

00:06:39:06 - 00:07:02:11
Wayne Turmel
Right. But if I'm paranoid about whether or not whereas is paying attention, that could be sending the wrong message. Mm hmm. Some of this is what is the responsibility of the audience? The responsibility of the audience is to pay attention, to contribute to the work to do. You need to be on camera all the time. No, you don't.

00:07:02:13 - 00:07:12:08
Wayne Turmel
And if you constantly refuse to be on camera, if this becomes a thing at some point, why?

00:07:12:10 - 00:07:13:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:13:08 - 00:07:22:03
Wayne Turmel
Why don't you want to be on camera? Why don't you want to help your teammates connect with you? Well, I don't want to.

00:07:22:05 - 00:07:23:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Is not a good enough reason.

00:07:23:16 - 00:07:25:08
Wayne Turmel
It's not a great reason.

00:07:25:09 - 00:07:28:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Stop being a baby and turn camera on.

00:07:28:12 - 00:07:54:06
Wayne Turmel
Now, again, do you need to do it all the time? No. This should be something that is discussed and agreed. If you are doing a brainstorming meeting where it's really important that people see each other and make sure that we understand what the other person is saying. My rule generally is the bigger the audience, the less important it is that the passive audience members be on camera.

00:07:54:08 - 00:08:10:14
Wayne Turmel
The smaller the group. And this goes back to the richness of the communication, the smaller the group, the more active the discussion, the more we need to collaborate and cooperate, the more I want to see who I'm working with.

00:08:10:16 - 00:08:29:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. Well, and we talked about this off off this recording, but it was this idea of, you know, well, I don't want people looking at me. I don't want my boss to see me, even if it's on a one on one. And it was like, do you walk into a conference room with a bag on your head? Because if you don't, the what are we talking and.

00:08:29:11 - 00:08:42:05
Wayne Turmel
And it also is part of your responsibility as a worker. I mean, the most common thing is, well, I'm not really dressed to be on camera. You knew there was a meeting today. And if you help.

00:08:42:05 - 00:08:45:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Out to one. Okay. But like.

00:08:45:10 - 00:09:03:07
Wayne Turmel
If the boss says, I need to talk to you for a second and you say, well, I'm not really camera ready. And she says, I don't care. I just need to talk to you for 2 seconds. That's a different conversation. But if, you know, there is a meeting at 10:00 in the morning and you're still in your pajamas.

00:09:03:12 - 00:09:06:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Get a pajamas, you're going to be done.

00:09:06:08 - 00:09:08:01
Wayne Turmel
I'm going to get judgy.

00:09:08:03 - 00:09:09:10
Marisa Eikenberry
But do it.

00:09:09:12 - 00:09:29:22
Wayne Turmel
Particularly if there are people in the office who have had to shower and dress and commute and do all the rest of that stuff. And again, you only need to be dressed from the belly button up. How lazy are you that you can't put on a shirt with buttons when you know there's a meeting?

00:09:30:00 - 00:09:51:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and in the interest of time, I'm going to pivot a little bit to our next question, but it's related to what we're talking about. So Mike McBride from LinkedIn says, you know, it's not necessary to have a screen full of people who are clearly reading and responding to email while others are presenting information. Just record the presentation and ask for written feedback so we can all go back to working.

00:09:51:19 - 00:09:57:04
Marisa Eikenberry
So yeah, I mean, we've talked about this secret as before. Yeah. This actually video.

00:09:57:06 - 00:10:22:00
Wayne Turmel
When you told me that this question was coming, I actually got jazzed because it's a conversation that we haven't had on this podcast and is worthy of discussion. Mm hmm. So I'm going to kind of take this in a couple of parts. You know, a bunch of people are paying attention. The message obviously isn't that riveting. They're probably making announcement of some kind.

00:10:22:02 - 00:10:25:02
Wayne Turmel
Does that need to be a meeting, period?

00:10:25:04 - 00:10:26:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And that's a good question.

00:10:27:04 - 00:10:33:23
Wayne Turmel
And these are the same people, though, who say things like, I just survived another meeting. That could have been an email.

00:10:34:01 - 00:10:34:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:10:34:16 - 00:10:50:17
Wayne Turmel
And when we talk to the managers and say everybody says this could have been an email, why did you hold a meeting? And their answer, in all seriousness and with tears in their eyes, is because nobody reads the damn email.

00:10:50:19 - 00:11:14:18
Marisa Eikenberry
I was on a meeting once, thankfully not for this company, but I was on a meeting once where they set a Google document that they wanted everybody to read, and because they could not confirm that people were going to read the document, they had a meeting where they literally verbatim read the document. Now, granted, I want to take forks and poke my eyes out, but I understood why they did that.

00:11:14:20 - 00:11:47:06
Wayne Turmel
Right. So, again, do we need a meeting to make this particular announcement? Possibly not. But what was really interesting at the end of Mike's comment is, can you just record it, send it, and ask everybody to acknowledge that they've seen it? Well, we know that that's no guarantee that anybody has actually read or understood. And it does, though, raise the specter of we're really big on asynchronous communication.

00:11:47:08 - 00:12:00:17
Wayne Turmel
Right. Send chat messages. People don't need to respond to written things right away. You can communicate this. We can contribute to meetings. You can do things. What we haven't talked about is asynchronous video.

00:12:00:20 - 00:12:03:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Which has been such a big topic lately.

00:12:03:08 - 00:12:26:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, it's funny. It's a big topic now. I remember ten years ago people telling me that video email was going to be the wave of the future that you would push a button and the camera would come on and you could say, Hey, Marisa, I need you to do this, this and this today. You know, if you have any questions, give me a call.

00:12:26:22 - 00:12:53:02
Wayne Turmel
Click set. And it was clunky and it was huge and it never really caught on because it's time consuming, right, to do that kind of stuff. But now that we work in a hybrid world, now that the bandwidth and things aren't nearly the problem that they used to be, and the fact that everybody has cameras on their phone and you don't need a great setup to do that.

00:12:53:04 - 00:13:23:14
Wayne Turmel
Is there value in making a richer form of communication than another email? I know one organization where every morning the manager records a12 minute video. Hey, good morning. I'm out of the office today. Here's what you need to know. If you need to get to know me. You can reach me here. And by the way, don't forget, we have a meeting on Friday, and I need everybody to read that thing.

00:13:23:17 - 00:13:24:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay, Fair.

00:13:24:14 - 00:13:51:21
Wayne Turmel
And it's very short, but she sends that out every morning. And, yeah, you can do read receipts and you can see if it's been clicked on. You can see who read it, and you can do all of that, you know, semi fascist documentation stuff. But if you develop a rhythm and if people demonstrate that they do in fact treat these messages seriously and do take the required action.

00:13:51:23 - 00:13:52:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:13:52:21 - 00:13:59:11
Wayne Turmel
It's not a bad idea. It's something to think about. Slack, for example, could not be easier.

00:13:59:13 - 00:14:10:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. They even add captions to the video or transcripts To the video. I don't remember when they did that, but like, there's another accessibility point that isn't there in a regular meeting usually.

00:14:10:09 - 00:14:40:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, I'm not walking around with subtitles of clearing, of course, on my shirt, although Lord knows, I probably should. So we have these forms of communication. People are becoming more and more comfortable. Certainly generationally, people face time and do all kinds of things video wise. Tik Tok. So it's actually asynchronous video is something worth exploring, you know, even if it's a monday morning.

00:14:40:16 - 00:15:09:14
Wayne Turmel
Hi, it's Monday. Here we go, team. How are you? Right. Or if you want to send a quick message to your boss. Right. Hey, I've got a question. Can we do this? You know, it's just. But it needs to be short and it needs to be easily accessed, which means it needs to be a link in teams or Slack, something that no matter what their device on, they can click it and watch it.

00:15:09:16 - 00:15:13:19
Wayne Turmel
The more hassle it is, the less valuable it's going to be.

00:15:13:21 - 00:15:30:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, I was going to add on to this, too, because, I mean, you know, we were talking about video and this idea of like some people, like I don't want to be on camera or whatever, which we've already set our pieces on that. But I do know that some of these platforms also allow audio clips, too. So maybe whatever you're talking about, you don't need it to be a video.

00:15:30:21 - 00:15:43:07
Marisa Eikenberry
To your point, you know, Hey, I got a real quick thing for my boss, but it's way easier to explain it than it is to type it out here. I'll just send an audio clip really quick and then you don't even have to mess with the video part at all if you didn't want to.

00:15:43:10 - 00:16:08:02
Wayne Turmel
The problem with that, of course, is that we have an entire generation of these darn kids with their rock and roll and their Foo Fighters who don't listen to voice mail, which again, there is no excuse for that. It is a tool. It is an expectation of the job you don't like. It is not a legitimate excuse.

00:16:08:04 - 00:16:16:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay. But as the one of the kids with the rock and roll, if I'm not listening to voice mail, wouldn't I also not turn on a video too?

00:16:16:19 - 00:16:26:16
Wayne Turmel
Which is where Mike's point about accountable and he comes in. Right. If you don't want meetings that don't have to be meetings.

00:16:26:18 - 00:16:27:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:16:27:13 - 00:16:42:04
Wayne Turmel
If you say I'm not an idiot, just tell me what you want and I'll do it. Then you'd better do it. Because if you don't, we are going back to entire meetings where I read the memo to everybody.

00:16:42:06 - 00:17:05:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and I can't help but come back to this idea, too. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a here. I'll watch the video on my own time or listen to the audio clip in my own time. Like, I get all that. But regardless, the time is spent. Either way, if it's a 20 minute meeting or a 20 minute video that you watch asynchronously later, it's still 20 minutes that you have now spent.

00:17:05:07 - 00:17:26:17
Marisa Eikenberry
So it's like, is it better if it's already scheduled and you're, quote unquote, forced to do it rather than, okay, yeah, I'm going to try to make time in my schedule to watch this 20 minute video at some point, which I think sometimes might also be why some of these videos and audios and things like that don't get watched or listened to.

00:17:26:19 - 00:17:53:10
Wayne Turmel
They don't watch videos, but they don't read the email and they don't pay attention in the meeting. I mean, if you are blithely ignoring communication that's on you at some point, that's a performance management issue, right? If your boss is sending emails of your teammates or sending out emails and you start every meeting with, I didn't see that right.

00:17:53:14 - 00:17:55:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, how do you expect your job to.

00:17:55:19 - 00:18:04:11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, that's a performance management issue. At that point you are not taking your responsibility. The rest of the world can only do so much.

00:18:04:17 - 00:18:06:23
Marisa Eikenberry
We can give you all the tools.

00:18:07:01 - 00:18:21:04
Wayne Turmel
We have all the tools at our disposal. There is no excuse for not getting a message anymore except time and attention. And that is on you. And that's end of the lesson.

00:18:21:06 - 00:18:25:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, we could wax poetic about this for ever, but.

00:18:25:20 - 00:18:27:21
Wayne Turmel
Whatever it is that we're waxing.

00:18:27:23 - 00:18:47:01
Marisa Eikenberry
You know. Yes. So, anyway, I do want to thank Brianne and Mike for sending in their pet peeves for meetings. And we have a few more that we're going to go into. And I'm so excited to get to those as well. But, Wayne, thank you so much for talking to us about these two very important topics and listeners.

00:18:47:01 - 00:19:02:14
Marisa Eikenberry
I hope that you got a ton out of it and thank you for listening to the long distance work life for shownotes transcripts and other resources. Make sure to visit us at long distance work life dot com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review.

00:19:02:16 - 00:19:14:16
Marisa Eikenberry
This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our shownotes. And let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic or pet peeve for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00:19:14:16 - 00:19:28:13
Wayne Turmel
And if you haven't figured it out by now, Marisa actually pays really close attention to that stuff. We are digging what we're hearing from you. So questions, pet peeves, vicious personal attacks. Bring it.

00:19:28:15 - 00:19:45:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Follow me on all the social media. I yes, I will bring you all the stuff you like to learn more about Remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long Distance Team. You can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team Book Dotcom. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:19 Discussion about getting team members to turn on their cameras
02:25 Advantages and disadvantages of having cameras on during meetings
03:30 Importance of trust and attention during meetings
04:23 Responsibility of remote workers during meetings
05:28 Value of seeing body language and greetings at the beginning of meetings
06:25 Challenges of being on camera for long periods of time
07:02 Importance of active discussion and collaboration in smaller groups
07:25 Addressing concerns about appearance and being seen by others
08:45 Responsibility of workers to be prepared for meetings
09:03 Dressing appropriately for video meetings
09:30 Importance of considering if a meeting is necessary
09:51 Recording presentations and asking for written feedback
10:22Exploring asynchronous communication and video
12:00 The value of asynchronous video communication
13:23Using short daily videos for communication
14:10 Accessibility benefits of video transcripts
15:09 Exploring audio clips as an alternative to video
16:42 Accountability and the need for meetings
17:05 Considering the time spent on meetings and videos
17:26 Ignoring communication is a performance management issue.
18:07 No excuse for not getting a message anymore.
18:47 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

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Guests, Hybrid Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Benefits of Co-Working in Remote and Hybrid Workplaces with Taylor Harrington

Taylor Harrington, Head of Community at Groove, joins Wayne Turmel to discuss the concept of co-working and how it can be applied in both physical and online spaces. They explore the benefits of co-working, such as accountability, social connection, and the opportunity to meet new people. Taylor explains how Groove facilitates online co-working sessions, matching individuals with similar interests and goals. She emphasizes the importance of transparency and vulnerability in building meaningful connections. Taylor also highlights the value of physical co-working spaces in providing a change of environment and fostering community.

Key Takeaways

1. Co-working provides accountability, social connection, and a sense of community for remote workers.
2. Groove offers online co-working sessions, matching individuals with similar interests and goals.
3. Transparency and vulnerability are essential in building meaningful connections.
4. Physical co-working spaces provide a change of environment and opportunities for community building.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:36:11
Speaker 1
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Long-Distance Worklife. This is the show where we try to make sense of remote hybrid working wherever the heck you are, and in trying to make sense of it and helping us not just get through it, but to really thrive under those circumstances. My name is Wayne Turmel. I am a master trainer here at Kevin Eikenberry Group.

00:00:36:13 - 00:01:01:14
Speaker 1
If you are a regular to this show, you know that we do two types of shows. We do episodes with myself and my co-host and producer, Marisa. This is not one of those. This gives me a chance to talk to really cool people about things that are happening that you might not know about. And that's certainly the case today, is something I don't know a lot about.

00:01:01:15 - 00:01:26:08
Speaker 1
And we're talking about co-working. Not that I don't have coworkers, but the idea of co-working as third locations or alternatives to being in the office. And in order to do that, this is me bringing in Taylor Harrington. Hi, Taylor. Who the heck are you? And what the heck does Groove do That brings us to this topic.

00:01:26:10 - 00:01:50:00
Speaker 2
Amazing. Thanks so much, Wayne, for having me and for Marisa recommending that I. Come on. I'm so excited to talk about co-working. I love this topic. Clearly, I have had a co-working journey myself, having had experiences being in offices and then moving remotely and trying to find that awkward space in between and what that means. Back in college, I was in an incredible co-working space that I'm sure we will talk about more.

00:01:50:01 - 00:02:15:11
Speaker 2
And so when I heard what Groove was building, which was really this idea of taking the best parts about a physical co-working space and bringing it online so that people from all over the world could be a part of it and could co work together. I was so excited. So we do 50 minute co-working sessions in the Groove app where folks get matched up in small groups with people like them, whether it's friends or people who are relevant doing similar things.

00:02:15:13 - 00:02:39:06
Speaker 2
It's mostly people who don't have teams and just want good vibes and high fives, as we like to say, from people who understand that they're on these maybe career paths. So me as a whole, I'm living in New York City. I love hosting gatherings. I'm a party host. I love creating this feeling of what I call the opposite of loneliness, which there's not really a good word for.

00:02:39:06 - 00:02:52:23
Speaker 2
So my my life mission is to help people feel the opposite of loneliness. And I do that through gatherings online in person. And you can usually find me wandering into tiny coffee shops or bookstores.

00:02:53:01 - 00:03:23:11
Speaker 1
All right. So using very small words, because I struggle with this, I will tell you the truth, when we talk about co-working, obviously our frame of reference is the office You work in the office, people are sitting at desks next to you. There are conversations sometimes these are wonderful, enlightening social activities and very productive work things, and sometimes they are what drives us to work remotely.

00:03:23:14 - 00:03:39:03
Speaker 1
But when you talk about co-working in an app, help me out here. What does that look like and why in heaven's name, if I'm just, you know, how is this different than being on a teams meeting which is already killing us?

00:03:39:05 - 00:04:05:13
Speaker 2
Yes, I hear that. So, like I said, a lot of people that are on Groove don't have teams, so we know how good it can feel to have those coworkers and camaraderie of doing things together. And even just the accountability or the goal setting that happens with coworkers. When you say, okay, this is what we need to get done this week, and having those regular scheduled meetings or goal planning sessions, whatever that looks like inside of group, the folks that are attracted to it are people that don't have that type of structure in their day.

00:04:05:14 - 00:04:25:20
Speaker 2
So there are people who are designing their days as, let's say, a freelancer and they're wondering, okay, what time do I really need to start working? Because they've created a flexible schedule where they work for themselves. So a typical groover might hop onto the app on their phone and click start a groove, right as they've got their coffee in hand, opening up their laptop for the first time.

00:04:25:20 - 00:04:42:09
Speaker 2
And it's really that push to get into the zone to do the thing. So they might hop into one session. Like I said, it's 50 minutes. They'll be joined by three other people and get to it. And so immediately they've got this burst of social connection that there are other people around them, which is typically quite a lonely day.

00:04:42:09 - 00:05:01:11
Speaker 2
If they're by themselves as a freelancer, they might work with clients and work with other people who help them out on specific projects, but they don't have that camaraderie of going into the office or those Zoom meetings that you might have on working on a on a remote team. So that's typically the target user of something like Groove.

00:05:01:11 - 00:05:24:06
Speaker 2
There are a lot of other apps or platforms out there that are made for remote co-working, for folks that are remote coworkers. So you might hop on with your full team and it's more like a focus session where you're coming to get stuff done in a series of a certain sprint. So it's like, okay, let's get together four of our coworkers and hit the button and all co work together.

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:53:23
Speaker 2
That's a little bit different because you're not there for the discovery of meeting other people, whereas on Groove, a lot of folks are there to meet other people. They're there to find who these, as a griever calls them, chosen coworkers are because they don't have those coworkers. So there's a discovery part to it, there's a friend's part to it, inviting people that maybe you met at a conference last year and you thought they were really cool, but you didn't really know A meaningful, meaningful way to connect with them regularly and grouping together allows you to do that.

00:05:54:01 - 00:05:59:16
Speaker 1
Okay, so there are several things that you've said here that give me great angst.

00:05:59:19 - 00:06:00:12
Speaker 2
That sometimes.

00:06:00:12 - 00:06:11:10
Speaker 1
I don't think they're desirable just because I can't, for the life of me, imagine doing it. Know when you're five and you see somebody on the playground that you've never seen and you go, Oh.

00:06:11:10 - 00:06:11:22
Speaker 2
I want to.

00:06:11:22 - 00:06:40:06
Speaker 1
Be friends, okay? And off you go. As you become an adult, that becomes harder and harder to do. Right? So I guess, you know, the idea of, hey, there's a bunch of us and we all run our own little one man shops and it would be kind of cool to hang. I get that part. Talk to me about just involving complete strangers in this craziness, that process is just so foreign to my being.

00:06:40:08 - 00:06:58:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, so it's funny because it's grown over the last two years, you know, And we started our community was super tiny and it was mostly friends of the team that were doing this. And then I remember when our first groover came from the wild on Google and was like, I found you and I want to start co-working on Groove.

00:06:58:00 - 00:07:18:16
Speaker 2
And we were like, Oh my gosh, someone found us. And so obviously that's happened again and again now. And I think that that stranger danger is something that people bring up a lot when they're brand new to groove and when they're hearing about it. However, a lot of the people that join Groove and really love it have had some sort of an online experience where they are meeting strangers.

00:07:18:16 - 00:07:37:17
Speaker 2
So that's one thing that tends to be a commonality, whether it's they are someone who have done online workshops, so they've taken some sort of an online class where they were paired up with people in a Zoom room and they know what that experience is like, or they've done some sort of other focus app. Like I've mentioned before, or some sort of co-working.

00:07:37:17 - 00:08:01:21
Speaker 2
Even if it was a friend that started a Zoom Room or a mastermind and they were in a room co-working together for a certain amount of hours. So a lot of people have those experiences with within that. I think that one of the best parts about Groove is that people have really cool, transparent, wacky bios. So if you go on groove and you click on someone's bio before you happen to agree with them, you get to understand a little bit about who that human is.

00:08:01:23 - 00:08:23:19
Speaker 2
I like to say they're very anti LinkedIn. It's not like, Hi, I'm Taylor and I run this company. It's like people saying, Hey, I have a green thumb in a garden I can't stop paying attention to or I love to roller skate in my free time, or I've got three kiddos running around and my dog's name is Pudding and like, you just learn these funny things about people through these bios.

00:08:23:19 - 00:08:37:00
Speaker 2
So that starts to eliminate that, that scared nature of it. When you've started to create a culture of this is how we show up here and people showing up with that vulnerability and that transparency about who they are as full humans, not just what they do for work.

00:08:37:02 - 00:08:58:07
Speaker 1
Great. And we will have links to Groove and all of that stuff and you can check it out for yourself if you're so inclined. We will have those on. Oh dear. On the website. Long distance work like Dot. We will be doing that. So we will have that for you. What are some of the acts you mentioned a couple of things.

00:08:58:07 - 00:09:13:03
Speaker 1
You mentioned sprints and what are some of the activities that if I knew to coworking, what are a couple of the things maybe that you can do to kind of get started and get a get comfortable with that?

00:09:13:06 - 00:09:38:02
Speaker 2
Yes. So I think that one of the basic things is just the accountability in public. So even as simple as starting to say, okay, maybe you follow some really cool people on social media. So whether it's your Instagram stories or your Twitter account or threads or whatever you're on these days, if you want to start sharing publicly, hey, these are some things on my to do with that I'm getting done today and then celebrating any wins from the week publicly.

00:09:38:04 - 00:10:01:12
Speaker 2
I think that starts to help you feel that that shared social connection of putting it out there, Hey, this is what I want to get done today. People responding, reacting to it. And then at the end of the day or the end of the week, closing that loop with these are some of the things that I did this week or celebrating it so that I would say it's like a very easy way to ease into it without having to get on a camera, but starting to feel the benefits of it.

00:10:01:14 - 00:10:30:11
Speaker 2
If you do want to start doing it with someone else, I would say that the easiest way is to just do it with a friend. I even recommend two groupers that are brand new to group. Hey, if you are not interested in meeting someone new for the first time, use that little invite link and just hop into a private group with a friend so that you can experience it together because it is quite easy to get the hang of so I think that there are other platforms like that where if you are interested in this or if you want to do it with a coworker, for example, and you're like, Hey, this thing sounds interesting.

00:10:30:11 - 00:10:58:04
Speaker 2
Coworking online. There are a bunch out there where you can do it with someone that you already know. And then as you get used to just the process of it, it makes it way easier to do it with more people that you haven't met yet or have some sort of a commonality with it. But I think that that commonality and making that that transparent is one thing that I'm really looking forward to doubling down on with Groove, whether it's the fact that we both hop into a groove and I can now see that you're a podcaster and it's like right in my face, like, Hey, this person's a podcaster.

00:10:58:06 - 00:11:19:16
Speaker 2
It just breaks the ice. I think about relationships, kind of like peeling back an onion where if we had this onion of trying to get to the core of why we should connect is to humans. It's hard to do that when you have no context on that person. So if I met you on the side of the street and we were both walking in different directions and I said, Hey, I'm Taylor, you would be like, Why is a stranger talking to me?

00:11:19:21 - 00:11:37:19
Speaker 2
Versus if I was walking and I had a tote bag that had one of your favorite podcasts on it, you might say, Hey, I also listen to that show. What's your favorite episode? And we suddenly are layered deeper into that onion. And so you can take that even further and say, What if we're both standing in an elevator going to our friend's birthday party?

00:11:37:19 - 00:11:53:00
Speaker 2
And so now it's like, not only do I have that tote bag, but we both know we're going to the same place. And so you keep peeling back that onion. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity in connection in this space of remote work where we can be more transparent about helping people get through those layers.

00:11:53:03 - 00:12:08:16
Speaker 2
They can connect on something more meaningful, quicker. So that's something I'm keeping top of mind as we build group. But I'm sure that other other spaces are like that too. Even teams that are working remotely wondering how they can peel back the layers for coworkers to connect over meaningful topics.

00:12:08:18 - 00:12:51:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, one of the things and again, you know, when you know this, when you're writing or you're creating a podcast, you kind of have an avatar of who that person is, right? Yeah. But there are people who don't fit that. And in the remote workspace, this is particularly true. I mean, we think about people in companies that are working apart from each other, but there are a ton probably listening to this solopreneur or people who are loosely affiliated with others and need that social interaction and they're just not being alone with your own brain, which if you're like me, is something nobody wants for any length of time.

00:12:52:00 - 00:13:25:04
Speaker 1
You said something really early on in this conversation that I did pay attention to, and that is that you were a fan of traditional co-working spaces. And I will be honest, when we talk about remote work, most people or a lot of people at least think it's binary. You're in the office or you're working from home, but there's places and of course, anybody who saw the series on We Space, you know, is running away with their fingers crossed, you know, with nightmares.

00:13:25:06 - 00:13:42:16
Speaker 1
But these things exist and they exist for a reason. Talk to me a little bit about the advantage of working in a shared workspace with complete strangers and how you maximize that.

00:13:42:18 - 00:14:00:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, first off, I'll just say that sometimes getting out of the house is just a healthy thing to begin with. To have a commute to work, even if it's 10 minutes that you're walking. I live in New York City, so I could walk in any direction and be at a physical co-working space within 10 minutes. And so I think that that's that's part of it.

00:14:00:04 - 00:14:21:14
Speaker 2
I think that there are many different kinds of co-working spaces physically, and a lot of them oftentimes, people say, are quite cold. They're not really social co-working as a term. Sounds quite social. You're co-working next to people and yet you get to this big office space and you're next to someone on their laptop with their headphones in and no one's talking to you.

00:14:21:14 - 00:14:26:18
Speaker 2
And so I think there are lots of spaces like that. And in order.

00:14:26:18 - 00:14:47:01
Speaker 1
To get that's kind of been my limited experience with this is, Oh good, So you know, I can stay at home and put my earphones in and, and work or I can go somewhere else with unfamiliar physical surroundings and put my earphones in and work. I'm failing to see the benefit here.

00:14:47:06 - 00:15:20:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think that there are other ones that I find are more curated. They're often more expensive too, that are focused on community and helping you get to know other people in that space. So back when I was in college, I had the privilege of being able to go to one of those. I went to Penn State, which is in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania State College, and I went to this space called the New Initiative, and it was all focused on local entrepreneurs, which automatically, once it's a curated space for a specific kind of person, it just attracts a certain level of connection.

00:15:20:01 - 00:15:44:08
Speaker 2
But the community events that happened in that space were so well done where they brought in guest speakers. They even had salad bowl Fridays where they had folks bring in different ingredients for their salad bowl. So you could bring in carrots, you bring in lettuce, you bring in dressing and co-create a salad together. So there were just like all different things that this space did that fostered connection and foster real conversations.

00:15:44:10 - 00:16:00:22
Speaker 2
I attended an event where we had to figure out how to explain our ground truth, who we are at our core, and those types of things really allow people to open up so that when you hop into the coworking space the next day, you're not sitting next to strangers. You're having a conversation with someone who you know something meaningful about.

00:16:01:00 - 00:16:20:12
Speaker 2
So I do think that's a rare experience in the physical coworking world. But I do know there are a lot of spaces in Brooklyn, for example, that are tinier and have that. So it exists. It's just harder to find. And I think that the more narrow the spaces about who it's for, the better it can deliver on that community experience.

00:16:20:14 - 00:16:30:17
Speaker 1
And we have a number of digital nomads who listen to this. And the nice thing is that there are these places literally everywhere.

00:16:30:17 - 00:16:47:22
Speaker 2
Yes, yes. And I think that even digital nomads have such incredible resources out there. I know so many nomads from from group that have traveled to all these different places and they keep in touch with those people as they go to the next place, even if that person isn't there, because it's such a connected web of, Oh, you're going to be in Portugal.

00:16:47:22 - 00:17:08:20
Speaker 2
Let me tell you about this cool digital man I met last year, who's in Portugal right now. So I do think that even setting up in a coffee shop with a small group of people is another alternative to co work with people and make that experience special. It doesn't have to be something that you pay for. You know, you're enjoying a cup of coffee and a piece of coffee cake and you're hanging out with some good people as you get stuff done.

00:17:08:20 - 00:17:29:23
Speaker 2
And maybe even bringing a specific project, like a writing project that might take a couple of hours. So that's another alternative to do some co-working in-person. Just get out of your physical space, because I do think that that is is really healthy. And just having that connection. I mean, there's so much great research out there about how human connection throughout the day can really change your mood, but also that other person's mood.

00:17:30:01 - 00:17:54:21
Speaker 1
That's terrific. Lots to think about. Taylor, thank you so much. I'm going to wrap up the show now, but thank you. And we will have links to Groove and Taylor's LinkedIn page and all of that good stuff on the long distance work life dot com page. In the meantime, thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed the conversation.

00:17:55:01 - 00:18:27:20
Speaker 1
We try to judge it up a little bit and change topics constantly. And this was something that honestly I don't know a lot about being the anti social curmudgeon that I tend to be, but I will not be an anti social curmudgeon next episode because Marissa will be back. And if you have questions, show ideas, topics you want discussed, especially pet peeves, Marissa is constantly collecting pet peeves about remote work and and flexible and hybrid work.

00:18:27:22 - 00:18:54:21
Speaker 1
Drop us a line. Our emails are Wayne at Kevin Eikenberry icon Marissa Kevin Eikenberry dot com. LinkedIn or the show's LinkedIn page is a great way to find us. And of course if you are thinking about how should we be working and maybe rethinking how your team functions, check out my Kevin Eikenberry's new book, Long-Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone's Success.

00:18:54:21 - 00:19:17:13
Speaker 1
You can learn more about that at Long distance team book. Dot com If you listen to podcasts, this is the obligatory please like and subscribe. That's how people find us and we hope that you are telling your friends about us. So there you go. That's it. My name is Wayne Turmel. Thank you so much for being with us.

00:19:17:14 - 00:19:24:14
Speaker 1
Come back next week for another fun and interesting episode and don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to the show and topic of co-working
01:26 Groove app provides online co-working sessions for freelancers
03:23 Difference between co-working on Groove and team-focused platforms
05:01 Groove attracts users who don't have coworkers and want connection
06:40 Overcoming the initial discomfort of co-working with strangers
08:58 Exploring activities and sprints to get started with co-working
09:38 Benefits of using a platform like Groove for remote work
10:01 Ease into remote work by sharing goals and achievements online
10:30 Start using Groove with a friend or coworker
11:19 Importance of commonality and transparency in remote work connections
12:08 The challenge of connecting with coworkers in remote teams
13:42 The advantage of working in a curated co-working space
14:47 The struggle of finding meaningful connections in physical co-working spaces
16:30 The availability of co-working spaces for digital nomads
17:08 Alternatives to physical co-working spaces, like coffee shops
18:27 Ways to connect and provide feedback to the podcast hosts

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Taylor Harrington, Head of Community at Groove

Name: Taylor Harrington

What She Does: Head of Community at Groove

About: Taylor Harrington is the Head of Community at Groove, an app that brings the concept of co-working online. She is passionate about creating connections and helping people feel a sense of community, both online and in-person. Taylor has experience in physical co-working spaces and understands the value they bring to remote workers.

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

The Spider-Man Paradox: How Remote Workers Balance Power and Responsibility

Marisa and Wayne discuss the Spider-Man Paradox, which is the idea that with great power comes great responsibility. They explore the responsibility that remote workers have in managing their own schedules and demonstrating their trustworthiness to their employers. They emphasize the importance of proactive communication, setting expectations, and taking ownership of one's work. They also discuss the need for remote workers to take responsibility for their own development and seek out opportunities for growth.

Key Takeaways

1. Remote workers have the power to control their own schedules, but they also have the responsibility to demonstrate their trustworthiness.
2. Proactive communication and setting expectations are essential for building trust with employers.
3. Remote workers should take ownership of their work and be proactive in seeking out opportunities for growth and development.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:18:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:18:18 - 00:00:21:03
Wayne Turmel
Hi. That would be me. Yes.

00:00:21:05 - 00:00:37:17
Marisa Eikenberry
So today we're actually talking about something that you've talked about several times, including on this podcast, which is called the Spider-Man Paradox. And we're going to talk about what remote workers can learn from Spider-Man, basically. So let's dive right into what exactly is the Spider-Man paradox anyway?

00:00:37:19 - 00:01:05:13
Wayne Turmel
Well, the Spider-Man paradox on some level is an old man trying to sound relevant, but what it truly is, is there is this line in Spider-Man, canon and mythos and keeps showing up in all the origins stories. And that is, as you know, Uncle Ben is dying. And he says to Peter, with great power comes great responsibility. Right.

00:01:05:13 - 00:01:20:02
Wayne Turmel
And that is good advice anyway. But it generally gets directed to managers and leaders. And I am going to stir the pot a little bit, which is so unlike me.

00:01:20:06 - 00:01:22:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. We never do that on the show.

00:01:22:07 - 00:01:52:06
Wayne Turmel
But here's the deal. A lot of remote work advocates, a lot of remote work literature, talks about people's right to work from home, people's need to balance their lives and the power that we have to control our own schedules and to manage our time a little bit differently and get some of our life back. That's great power. But there is also responsibility associated with that.

00:01:52:09 - 00:01:56:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. It's not entitled things that we just have access to.

00:01:56:17 - 00:02:21:06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, a lot of the remote work literature support stuff just sounds really entitled. And I have heard from several employers legitimately want to make this thing work, but they're like every time we make a request of the people who work from home, we're the bad guy.

00:02:21:08 - 00:02:24:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And sometimes it's warranted.

00:02:24:07 - 00:02:53:14
Wayne Turmel
And sometimes it's warranted. I will be the last person to constantly leap to the defense of employers and, you know, corporations and like that. And workers have a responsibility here. And I have found myself doing it of late. I've been working from home for the better part of 20 years, you know, as far as I know. Our boss, Kevin, has no worries about the way I work or whatever.

00:02:53:19 - 00:03:10:07
Wayne Turmel
But I remember one afternoon I was eating lunch and my phone pinged and Kevin was like, Where are you? And I'm sitting on the couch eating a sandwich watching sports center. And it's like, how dare he question whether I'm working right?

00:03:10:11 - 00:03:14:03
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm eating lunch right now. This is my time. But it's not that right.

00:03:14:04 - 00:03:34:19
Wayne Turmel
It's like I'm sitting at home. I got a ham sandwich stuffed in my face. I'm watching Sports Center, and it's like, how is this for a how is he supposed to know that? And B, if I said to him, I'm on the couch watching SportsCenter, what do you want? Wouldn't make me sound like a really involved, committed worker.

00:03:34:19 - 00:03:40:01
Wayne Turmel
Right? And by the way, lunch had run a little long. To be fair.

00:03:40:03 - 00:03:42:04
Marisa Eikenberry
That SportsCenter must have been really good that day.

00:03:42:06 - 00:03:51:15
Wayne Turmel
Yes, In general, I am very you know, I'm committed and I'm a good worker and all of that stuff. And sometimes not so much.

00:03:51:17 - 00:03:52:20
Marisa Eikenberry
We all have our days, right?

00:03:52:20 - 00:04:16:16
Wayne Turmel
We all have our days. So do we accept that with all of this newfound stuff that we didn't have until fairly recently? Mm hmm. Right. Usually when you went to work, you physically went to another location, you went to work, you stayed there for the required amount of time to get paid, and then you came home.

00:04:16:18 - 00:04:17:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:17:05 - 00:04:43:12
Wayne Turmel
Well, we now have considerably more power than we had, and there's a responsibility that goes with that. Now, it can get a little tricky because all some organizations are addressing that by and I'm putting this in imaginary air quotes by making them earn the right to work from home.

00:04:43:14 - 00:04:45:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. I've heard that a lot.

00:04:45:17 - 00:04:54:17
Wayne Turmel
Which I know what they mean when they say that. Have you demonstrated rated sufficient skills that you can be left on?

00:04:54:19 - 00:04:55:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Will we trust them?

00:04:56:01 - 00:05:09:08
Wayne Turmel
Can we trust you? And trust, as I have said so many times, is evidence based. Right. Scripture will tell you that faith is the evidence of things. Unseen trust actually requires.

00:05:09:10 - 00:05:09:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Some.

00:05:09:17 - 00:05:10:19
Wayne Turmel
Backup.

00:05:10:21 - 00:05:14:23
Marisa Eikenberry
And yeah, it's not just like inherently you've been hired, so therefore, we trust you.

00:05:15:00 - 00:05:37:14
Wayne Turmel
Right. It's, you know your job well enough. Right? If you have a question, can you get it answered? If you're in the office with the manager, the answer is usually pretty quick. Mm hmm. You know, we're not going to make you work from home and then not give you resources and help you get your work. Of course. So there are lots of ways that organizations are doing that, bringing people in at first.

00:05:37:16 - 00:06:00:10
Wayne Turmel
Gradually, you can work from home one day to day. If it looks like there's no problem in your performance is good and your production is fine, we extend the leash, right? So there's lots of ways to do that. But a lot of people who work from home get very defensive about this notion of What do you mean I am responsible?

00:06:00:14 - 00:06:06:17
Wayne Turmel
How dare they question my work ethic? How dare they question whether I'm working? You know.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:30:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, there's a there's a bit on both sides. So I guess with this. So I know that one of the things that you've talked about, you know, talking about things like it's not all on the employer, like there's responsibility between need to be doing as well. So how can we demonstrate these responsibilities? How can we act on these responsibilities so that way, you know, our employers do trust us.

00:06:30:06 - 00:06:36:13
Marisa Eikenberry
So that, you know, as you've said in a previous episode and I'll I'll link it in the show notes that, like, we don't screw this up.

00:06:36:14 - 00:06:47:04
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I think a lot of it goes back to the three piece model that we've talked about before from a long distance team, and Marisa will have.

00:06:47:04 - 00:06:48:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Links.

00:06:48:11 - 00:07:07:13
Wayne Turmel
To all of that good stuff. But the three part P model says to be a great teammate, you need to be productive, you need to be proactive and you need to take a long term view and see the potential in the third piece. And proactivity is really a part of this. Does your boss know when to expect you there?

00:07:07:13 - 00:07:22:02
Wayne Turmel
You know, it's one thing to say, Oh, it's the middle of the day. I'm going to make a quick target running them out. It's another thing to actually say, I'm going to be out of the office for an hour. Yeah, it's a simple thing, but then they're not worried about it.

00:07:22:04 - 00:07:41:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, it's like you just talked about earlier with, you know, lunch and stuff like that. And it's like, well, how is Gavin supposed to know that you're eating lunch like, I know many of us on our team do it. I know I do it specifically, too, but like, I put up a slack statuses as I'm eating lunch and I put my do not disturb on for an hour and everybody knows that if they need me, I'll come back in an hour.

00:07:41:19 - 00:07:53:23
Wayne Turmel
And it does two things. First of all, oh, she's not there. So if I need something right away, I'll go bug somebody else. Right. But the other thing is, here's why I'm not here and here's when to expect me home.

00:07:54:01 - 00:07:54:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:54:12 - 00:08:07:13
Wayne Turmel
Home to the office. Dr. Freud. To the front desk, please. But it's those little things, right? Because you got to think. What is the other person? What does the other person know?

00:08:07:16 - 00:08:10:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. They go back to the. You're not there.

00:08:10:11 - 00:08:27:10
Wayne Turmel
It goes back to the Johari window. We talked about her. I know where I am. I know that I did yeoman service on that project before I left. So I don't feel bad about taking a break, but they don't. All they know is they have a question. And when it's not there, he's supposed to be there. What's he doing?

00:08:27:12 - 00:08:33:07
Wayne Turmel
Oh, he's not answering me. As opposed to, Oh, he's at lunch. I'll bug him right, later on.

00:08:33:09 - 00:08:35:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, you're on a client call or whatever. It doesn't matter.

00:08:35:13 - 00:08:43:06
Wayne Turmel
You're taking you're taking responsibility for not creating problems that don't need to be there.

00:08:43:10 - 00:08:46:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, you're. You're communicating what's going on? So then. Right.

00:08:46:17 - 00:08:58:18
Wayne Turmel
One of the things one of the things that we don't do often enough is check with our managers about the priorities of things, because it's not. Are you working? It's. What are you working on?

00:08:58:20 - 00:09:08:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Yeah. If you've been on a rabbit hole for something that was not a high priority, but this other project that needs to be done next week is been left drowning in a corner.

00:09:08:07 - 00:09:27:15
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I do this fairly frequently. You know, we've established on this show, Kevin and I are in different time zones, and so my day starts very early by West Coast standards, and every morning I send them a quick hello. Sometimes I send them a hello. Here's what I'm working on today.

00:09:27:16 - 00:09:28:10
Marisa Eikenberry
That way he knows.

00:09:28:10 - 00:09:44:07
Wayne Turmel
It's not a big deal. It's just he knows if I'm not terribly active on Slack, if I'm not, you know, if I've got my Do not disturb on whatever, he at least knows what's going on. And unless he has a problem with it, he trusts me to do what he needs to do.

00:09:44:09 - 00:10:06:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I know. I've had situations where, you know, I mean, pretty much my entire job is task based. I don't do a lot of meetings other than like this. And so there are times that I get overwhelmed with tasks. And when Kevin was my manager, although now Adrian is, I would be like, okay, here's my task list, but I don't know what the bigger picture is and how these tasks relate.

00:10:06:20 - 00:10:14:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Can you help me decide what the priority of this is? Because right now I'm looking at the list and going, all of it needs done and I don't know where to start.

00:10:14:15 - 00:10:38:13
Wayne Turmel
Well, there's a perfect example, though. You have said, help me with this. I have given you let's say I'm your manager. I have given you guidance on this. You obviously know what needs to be done. I have given you the guidance. You acknowledge that? Silly me. I'm going to assume that when we ring off, you are actually going to work on those things, right?

00:10:38:15 - 00:10:47:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and, you know, taking the responsibility of, hey, I know this needs done, but I need help like asking for help is not something that we do very often either.

00:10:47:10 - 00:10:55:22
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that's a problem. That's part of the proactivity thing, right? Is we get really caught in the headlights sometimes.

00:10:56:00 - 00:10:56:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:10:57:00 - 00:11:11:13
Wayne Turmel
And we don't want to look like we don't know what we're doing. We don't want to appear helpless and stupid. We think somehow we'll just magically figure it out until it's too late. Now it's a problem.

00:11:11:14 - 00:11:20:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. We're so afraid of seeming like we're incompetent or we don't know how or how to do our jobs that later we look like we're incompetent. Don't know how to do our jobs.

00:11:20:17 - 00:11:45:20
Wayne Turmel
Now, some of this is if you are proactive about communicating, you know, like I say, Kevin and I talk by chat at least once a day. Some days that's all it is. But we do it every day. And because I know where he is, he publishes his schedule and lets people know. And we're very good about letting everybody know where we are and what's going on.

00:11:46:00 - 00:12:12:15
Wayne Turmel
It's fairly easy to be proactive. I know when he's there. I know that he's, you know, he's in the office today, so if I have a question, I can probably get him sharing schedules, letting people know who's where. And especially when you're in a hybrid situation where some days you're in the office, some days you're not. Some days those days are scheduled, some days it's, you know, left up to the gods.

00:12:12:16 - 00:12:13:17
Wayne Turmel
Right.

00:12:13:19 - 00:12:32:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. But I mean, to the to your point, so, you know, I'm a hybrid employee. I think at this point, I'm the only hybrid employee that our company has. Just because I'm in Indianapolis. And so, you know, most of the team knows I'm in the office Tuesday and Thursday. Sometimes I'm not in on a Tuesday or Thursday because Kevin's traveling or whatever.

00:12:32:22 - 00:12:55:11
Marisa Eikenberry
And so I know sometimes I'll get a message. Are you in the RH today or as we referring to you, remarkable house. And you know, sometimes the answer is yes, because they need something, you know, that they can only be found in remarkable house. And I'm right there to be able to answer it. And so while I don't publish that necessary, I do have on my Google calendar, if somebody looked, they would be able to know.

00:12:55:13 - 00:13:09:04
Marisa Eikenberry
But but like I don't change my slack status to say I'm in the office today or not because it's typical that if it's a Tuesday or Thursday, I'm probably there and maybe I should. But also, as we're talking, I should probably communicate that more than I usually do.

00:13:09:07 - 00:13:36:19
Wayne Turmel
But all teams develop a rhythm. But so to get back to Spiderman, I mean, the big thing is what is your responsibility as the employee? Right. It's no great mystery that the more engaged you are and the more you like your coworkers and the more you like your work, the more of that you tend to do, right? You tend to own it When here's what I would say.

00:13:36:22 - 00:13:54:04
Wayne Turmel
Going to dig this too much, but that's okay if you are being called out before you get your hackles up. As with any feedback, is it valid? Right. Right. Are you in fact, you know, my boss doesn't trust me. He says as he's driving to Starbucks.

00:13:54:06 - 00:13:55:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Know thyself is.

00:13:55:14 - 00:13:59:10
Wayne Turmel
Going. Right. How dare he not think I'm working?

00:13:59:12 - 00:14:04:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Have I given them reason to believe that I am not working? Oh, well. Okay.

00:14:04:12 - 00:14:18:19
Wayne Turmel
And. And what has to happen at that point is the coaching conversation. And this needs to come from both the manager and the employee is. What do you need to say?

00:14:18:21 - 00:14:19:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:14:19:23 - 00:14:30:05
Wayne Turmel
What are you seeing that is creating this lack of trust? And what do you need to see? What would establish that trust and make you comfortable?

00:14:30:07 - 00:14:32:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, we're not mind readers.

00:14:32:17 - 00:15:02:01
Wayne Turmel
And it may be as simple as use your status updates and keep people apprized. It might be as simple as you know, if you're going to do something out of the or if you go spend your day doing something out of the ordinary, you need to be heads down over a project or whatever. Send up a flare, let the team know, let your manager know so that there isn't all this whitespace that gets filled up with paranoia and not knowing.

00:15:02:03 - 00:15:23:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, so, you know, we just talked about the responsibilities of remote workers and how it's not all on the employer, but like one of the responsibilities as remote workers, as workers in general is our own development. So now that you know, you're not in the office anymore, so it's not quite as easy as, okay, I'm the boss, I'm sending you to training.

00:15:23:11 - 00:15:28:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Like how can remote workers improve the development on their own? Like what are some. Yeah, they can do.

00:15:28:21 - 00:15:47:01
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that gets to the third P in the model. The potential is if you want to get better at your job, if you want a better job, if you want a career track, you have always owned that. Ultimately that's always been on you.

00:15:47:03 - 00:15:47:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:15:47:22 - 00:16:16:05
Wayne Turmel
And it's been easier to do when everybody is in the office and everybody goes to the same training together. And and there's this constant visibility and these little side conversations and things that support those behaviors. You don't have those, right? So when they send out notifications, hey, there's this class coming up, it's really easy to delete it and go back to work right?

00:16:16:09 - 00:16:51:21
Wayne Turmel
Right. Is this something I need to do? Is this something I could benefit from? Have I taken any classes this year? Because if not, whether I think I need them or not. And that's a question you really should be examining, whether I think I need it or not. What message does it send? Yeah, I am not working visibly, noticeably working on things that are important to the leader, to the organization, to the perception of me as an engaged, committed employee.

00:16:51:21 - 00:16:56:22
Wayne Turmel
I have the responsibility to look like I care.

00:16:57:00 - 00:17:19:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and back to your proactivity point. Like not only is it, you know, hey, this class is available, you know, should I take it kind of thing. But you can also find your own courses, trainings, webinars, whatever. And you know, you may tell your manager, Hey, I just found out about this webinar on X, Y, Z. You know, I'm going to attend that on Friday and I will let you know what I learn.

00:17:19:05 - 00:17:39:13
Wayne Turmel
And by the way, a great thing to do is to share that with your teammates. If your group has a Slack or a microsoft teams channel on cool stuff like family or learning stuff, whatever you want to call that, right? Some people call it the so.

00:17:39:14 - 00:17:42:02
Marisa Eikenberry
I think we call ours continuous learning.

00:17:42:04 - 00:17:57:19
Wayne Turmel
Well, that sounds appropriately consultant ish, right? But we share that with each other. And hey, I'm going to be at this class, I'm going to be on this webinar. So not only don't come to me until it's over.

00:17:57:19 - 00:17:58:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:17:58:14 - 00:18:32:01
Wayne Turmel
Right. But also if you want to know about this, I'll share the slides. I'll give you the recording link, I'll do whatever is the appropriate thing to do. So to wrap this up, the Spider-Man paradox essentially is this thing about with great power comes great responsibility. And yes, as leaders, we have a great responsibility and as remote workers, we need to own more than we often do.

00:18:32:01 - 00:18:34:21
Wayne Turmel
If we're going to make this a success.

00:18:35:00 - 00:18:55:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. Wayne, thank you so much for talking to us about this. I'm actually going to link a video in our Shownotes listeners about Wayne talking about this quite a while ago about lessons from Spider-Man for remote workers. There's a couple of things that we didn't get to cover today, so hopefully that'll fill in some extra gaps. But listeners, thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life for notes, transcripts and other resources.

00:18:55:12 - 00:19:15:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit long distance work life dot com if you haven't yet subscribed to the show so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes and let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00:19:15:15 - 00:19:28:16
Marisa Eikenberry
We'd love to hear from you. And if you'd like to learn more about remote teams or Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at LongDistanceTeamBook.com. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction
00:00:37 Explanation of the Spider-Man Paradox
00:02:21 Remote workers getting defensive about responsibility
00:03:10 Demonstrating responsibility as remote workers
00:05:09 Trust is evidence-based
00:06:00 Three P model
00:07:07 Being proactive in communication with boss
00:07:41 Using Slack statuses to communicate availability
00:08:07 Importance of considering what others know
00:08:27 Misunderstandings when communication is lacking
00:08:27 Proactive communication and taking responsibility for creating problems
00:08:46 Checking with managers about priorities of tasks
00:09:27 Communicating daily tasks and work progress to managers
00:10:06 Asking for help and guidance when overwhelmed with tasks
00:10:38 Fear of looking incompetent leads to inaction and problems
00:11:46 Establishing a rhythm and clear communication within teams
00:12:12 Hybrid work situations and the need for schedule transparency
00:13:09 Need for better communication regarding office presence
00:14:04 Reflecting on one's own actions and trustworthiness
00:15:23 Taking ownership of personal development and career growth
00:16:57 Finding and sharing your own courses and trainings
00:17:19 Sharing learning opportunities with teammates
00:17:39 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

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Hybrid Work, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Technology

How Tectonic Forces Are Reshaping the Future of Work with Phil Simon

Wayne Turmel interviews Phil Simon about the trends that are reshaping the workplace, particularly in the context of remote and hybrid work. They discuss the dispersed workplace, employee empowerment, and the need for new metrics to measure productivity. Phil emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the shift towards remote work and the need for organizations to adapt to this new reality. He also highlights the role of employee engagement and the changing contract between employers and employees.

Key Takeaways

1. The dispersed workplace is here to stay, and organizations need to embrace the opportunities it presents.
2. Employee empowerment is crucial for attracting and retaining talent in a remote and hybrid work environment.
3. Traditional metrics for measuring productivity may not be effective in a remote work setting.
4. Companies should create a work environment that employees want to engage with, rather than forcing them to come to the office.
5. The contract between employers and employees is changing, and organizations need to adapt to the new expectations of workers.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:09 - 00:00:35:11
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the long distance worklife the podcast where we try to help people thrive and survive in the crazy changing, never quite the same world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. I'm with Kevin Eikenberry Group. This is a Marisa-less episode today. She will be with us next week. But I am really lucky.

00:00:35:13 - 00:01:02:06
Wayne Turmel
I get to talk to really smart people on this show. And one of them is my longtime friend and colleague, Phil Simon. And we are going to take a very high level look at some trends that are going to dictate whether exactly or generally where especially remote and hybrid work is going. And there's nobody that I would rather have this conversation with.

00:01:02:06 - 00:01:16:01
Wayne Turmel
So, Phil Simon, real quick, buddy, introduce yourself and then we're going to get down to the nine. The tectonic forces reshape in the workplace.

00:01:16:02 - 00:01:26:01
Phil Simon
Anyway, thanks for having me on. And let me just say that of all my podcasts, I think this is the first one in which the word chrysalis has been used well.

00:01:26:03 - 00:01:43:11
Wayne Turmel
And I think people tolerate me and like her is kind of out this year. So they tune in for Marissa and then they tune in for the people I talk to, and I am the necessary right way to that happening.

00:01:43:13 - 00:01:57:12
Phil Simon
I set the bar low. But anyway, thanks for having me on. My name's Phil Simon. I've written a bunch of books. The last four have been about the future of work and I write and speak and consult companies about how to navigate the chaos.

00:01:57:14 - 00:02:22:14
Wayne Turmel
And this book in particular, I like it. And you say, right on the cover of the book, this is not a tactical book. If you're looking for, you know, do this, don't do this, probably not the thing. But if like me, you spend a lot of time trying to figure out where is this going and what's impacting it and how the hell did that happen, I think this is an excellent book.

00:02:22:14 - 00:02:51:04
Wayne Turmel
And you outlined nine things that you think are kind of driving the workplace. And some of them are things like blockchain and generative A.I. and immersive technologies. But I want to focus on a few that are specific to this show and the people who listen. And I think I want to start with the dispersed workplace and what that really means.

00:02:51:04 - 00:03:13:17
Wayne Turmel
I know in the book you kind of said, look, the battles over people are working remotely, get over it. But what does that actually mean to organizations that are have been functioning in the before times and are trying to function now? What what what's the big aha. There?

00:03:13:19 - 00:03:36:09
Phil Simon
Well, I don't know if there's a single big aha moment, but as I write in chapter ten of the book, basically distilling some of the lessons from the nine into a number of strategies, pretending that COVID didn't happen and that people are going to gleefully return to the office five days a week is insane. And you could look at that as a negative because sometimes it can be difficult to do certain things remotely.

00:03:36:09 - 00:04:03:03
Phil Simon
You and I both know that if you're going to write all day, I don't need to be in office to do that right. If I'm going to code, if I'm going to do graphic design, But if I'm doing anything collaborative, you can do things sharing screens and design with Figment and those sorts of things. But, you know, for a collaborative session to receive a performance review, to brainstorm, to get to know your colleagues, you want to do that in person.

00:04:03:05 - 00:04:25:09
Phil Simon
So one of the consequences of that way in, as you know, is that if you only have employees coming in on a hybrid basis, that A, you may not need an entire office to yourself. So you might just want part of an office and B, you can actually hire from a larger talent pool if you're in San Francisco and you say, no, all of our coders have to be local.

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:45:05
Phil Simon
Well, good luck with that, because there are any number of tech companies, and as I write in the book, the head of machine learning at Apple, I think it was in March of last year, didn't take too kindly to Tim Cook's mandate that everyone return, at least on a hybrid basis. So he promptly quit. And I think by the end of the day, Google hired him.

00:04:45:07 - 00:05:06:01
Phil Simon
So that's a challenge. But if you look at it as an opportunity, well, now we aren't restricted to San Francisco, so it might be cheaper for us to pay someone who lives in Iowa a salary commensurate with other people in Des Moines and fly that person out once a month and still come out ahead, particularly if you then factor in lower real estate costs, even though the market has a bounce back yet.

00:05:06:01 - 00:05:25:18
Phil Simon
So all of these forces are related. But the most direct answer to your question, Wayne, is that it is silly to pretend that this hasn't happened. If COVID had been two or three weeks, it's a snow day. It's been two or three years of working remotely. The data is in. We have been productive. No, you don't want to hire people who will never come into the office.

00:05:25:20 - 00:05:37:04
Phil Simon
But if you think that you're going to find capable people who long term say, sure, sign me up for an hour or half commute each way, like it's 2018, ain't going to happen.

00:05:37:06 - 00:06:12:03
Wayne Turmel
What do you think this means to the individual worker? I mean, part of what the office provided, I think about new new hires and interns and people just out of school who are learning what it means to go to work right. What do you think this means organizations are going to have to do to help people prepare to work here, here being whatever that company is?

00:06:12:05 - 00:06:31:07
Phil Simon
Lots of things. First, and I think you recently wrote a post about this, about proximity bias that's alive and well. I mean, they've done studies controlling for performance. People who go into the office tend to be promoted and just thought of as harder working than people who are remote. Even though that may not be true. That's a legitimate concern.

00:06:31:07 - 00:06:49:08
Phil Simon
And I don't see it going away soon because it just taps into psychological biases. You could be cranking away at home. I don't see it out of sight, out of mind. But you're in the office till six and you take a couple smoke breaks and a two hour lunch. And boy, Wayne's a really good worker, but I think it's imperative for companies to find people who are willing to come to the office.

00:06:49:08 - 00:07:05:03
Phil Simon
I'm not saying that you have to be there a certain number of days per week because you can argue that that's arbitrary. But I think it's equally insane for companies to say you have to be in the office to work as it is for employees, say, I'm never coming to the office. So to me, that's an interview question, right?

00:07:05:03 - 00:07:26:01
Phil Simon
And then test people, you know, if they're not willing to come in, maybe it's time to cut the cord with them, because I agree with you, there is something to be said for that. And if I were 30 years younger, I would schlep into an office even when I didn't have to, to build that social currency, to establish reactions to relationships with folks, to collide with folks.

00:07:26:01 - 00:07:47:20
Phil Simon
Right. To have that random conversation about the bear in the hallway. And now, Oh, yeah, when you see the bear last night, I believe strongly love to get your thoughts on it, that those types of social ties matter. And if my manager likes me and my colleagues treat me well, maybe I'm less likely to leave for a 5% raise without having to move because I can now work anywhere.

00:07:47:22 - 00:08:21:09
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think that that's true. I also you know, I was talking to somebody about people returning to the office and she was bemoaning the fact that her people have basically gone feral and they don't know how to you know, they don't know how to act in an office setting anymore. And I think for young workers who've never had that experience, and if we're going to hire people from different backgrounds and people whose daddy didn't work at IBM, right.

00:08:21:11 - 00:08:47:04
Wayne Turmel
So it's kind of certain behaviors and certain tacit knowledge has been passed on. We have to create what it's like to work here and we have to teach people boundaries. And I know that it can be done with less physical proximity. But I think depending on where you are in your career, the demand for flexibility is going to be different.

00:08:47:06 - 00:09:12:22
Phil Simon
Oh, 100%. I mean, you could argue that the pandemic was ultimately a net positive for working mothers because to work from home and to not have to pay in some cases 20 $500 a month in childcare, and it should be a more present parent is beneficial. I'd also argue that companies there is a certain onus on employees. I agree with you there, but I believe that companies have to make the work a destination.

00:09:13:02 - 00:09:47:00
Phil Simon
Don't make me come in because I have to make me come in because I want you researching the book. I found many examples of companies that have completely rethought the office. My favorite example is Cisco. In the Manhattan office pre-pandemic 70% of the workspace Wain was allocated to individual workstation cubicles, desks, whatever they inverted that they spent a ton of money making it 30% individual workstations because they understand that if you're going to be coding or doing individual work all day, we don't want you there, right?

00:09:47:02 - 00:10:11:16
Phil Simon
It's actually better. It's a more flexible, collaborative environment so we can demonize employees all we want. And there certainly are many examples of slackers and quiet quitting. But if I were running any company of consequence, I would absolutely make it a cool place to be or people would want to hang out. And even though that mandate might be two days a week, people come in three or four because it actually is a better environment.

00:10:11:17 - 00:10:38:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that ties to employee engagement. One of the things that this show is very big on is that engagement isn't something companies can do. They can create an environment that people want to engage with. But engagement comes from inside the individual person, right? You choose. I can get down on one knee and give you a ring, but you're not engaged until you say yes.

00:10:38:23 - 00:11:00:03
Phil Simon
So I think we're now at my my prediction for laughing twice with your questions. But yeah, I mean, we could talk about nature versus nurture all day long. If I had to give a pithy 140 character answer, I'd just say do the opposite of what Musk is doing with Twitter and you'll probably be in a good spot.

00:11:00:05 - 00:11:11:04
Wayne Turmel
Safe enough. But this gets to one of your nine things, which is employee empowerment. Tell me what you mean by that.

00:11:11:06 - 00:11:35:22
Phil Simon
Yeah, as I've said before, when I think it's silly to believe that employees will return to their relatively docile states and forget what I think. Union approval ratings, I believe, are at 72%. Last time I checked. That's the highest rate in something like 40 or 50 years. Amazon famously is facing a number of union votes, and I think a few of them have been successful, even employee friendly companies.

00:11:35:22 - 00:12:10:12
Phil Simon
In the book, I write about Kickstarter and Trader Joe's have had to deal with unions, and I start off the book with the example of Google and how employees and contractors there basically staged a walkout over what happened with Andy Rubin from Android Frame fame and some sexual impropriety charges with the whole MeToo movement. It was remarkable to me watching that whole thing play out back in 2018, because Google employees aren't steelworker employees in the minds of Pennsylvania dying on the job or facing lung disease.

00:12:10:14 - 00:12:33:23
Phil Simon
They get free massages and dry cleaning and food, and here they are. So I think, again, all of these forces are related. And if you take for granted the fact that we do have a more dispersed workplace than a natural extension of that is I don't want to commute an hour each way. Prior to the pandemic, the average American commute was 37 minutes.

00:12:33:23 - 00:13:00:15
Phil Simon
I get that back twice per week. That's how is my math 168 minutes. That's close to 3 hours that I could spend walking my dog or watching TV shows or spending time with my family or whatever. So I. I couldn't separate the two. That's why they go in that particular order. But we've seen this with employees, this whole notion of bringing your whole self to work and maybe the pandemic contributed to that.

00:13:00:17 - 00:13:23:21
Phil Simon
If we saw you at home and you had a dog or a cat or a Breaking Bad poster in the background like I do, you got to know people a bit. And employees, right or wrong, started to develop this expectation. And without getting all political, we see how say would Salesforce, after Roe v Wade got overturned, the company more or less said, We will work with you to find alternatives.

00:13:23:23 - 00:13:55:22
Phil Simon
That to me, Wayne was unfathomable. Ten years ago. So progressive employers are responding to this because they realize it's just good business. That doesn't mean that you can placate employees as I said before, I think it's completely reasonable to expect people to come to the office once in a while. But I just don't think, particularly in this country, if you look at our labor laws compared to your home country, Canada, our countries in Europe that are much more employee friendly, I think it's going to be incredibly difficult to attract employees if you just say, we're giving you a paycheck now, shut up and do as you're told.

00:13:56:00 - 00:14:18:00
Wayne Turmel
Well, and there is a three beverage conversation to be had about the changing contract in the workplace. Right. This notion that for years the lip service has always been it's supply and demand. And when demand is up, you know, one side has leverage over the other. But it's been 60 years since Labor actually had any leverage.

00:14:18:02 - 00:14:39:06
Phil Simon
Yeah, it says it's funny. My masters is an industrial labor relations. I could bore you for more than three beverages on this topic, but I, I do think that a shift has taken place and that to me it's not a binary. So the pendulum will maybe swing back and forth a little bit, but I do think that employees in general and particularly talented folks will have no shortage of alternatives.

00:14:39:06 - 00:14:56:09
Phil Simon
And for you, if it's a deal breaker to only go in the office once or twice a week, you'll be able to find jobs like that from the previous book. Or maybe it was two books ago, I forget. But there was a story of a company that recruited a guy and he was thinking about the offer accepted on a Friday.

00:14:56:09 - 00:15:22:03
Phil Simon
But on Monday morning he emailed the recruiter and said, I'm sorry, I can't do this. Okay. Why you use Microsoft teams? I'm a Slack guy. To me, that is just a particular data point. But the very idea and I'm a big Slack fan or Slack for Dummies, I use it almost every day. The fact that you could say basically I like Miller Lite, not Bud Light, therefore I'm not going to watch that team no matter how much I like them.

00:15:22:04 - 00:15:37:22
Phil Simon
Does signal that the pendulum, I believe, has swung to employees, at least for the time being. And if you take a look at some of the other forces in the book, I just I'm not saying it's going to stick at 80% or 90%, but I don't think it's going to shift completely to the other way any time soon.

00:15:38:00 - 00:15:43:03
Phil Simon
But maybe generally I will prove me wrong.

00:15:43:05 - 00:16:10:16
Wayne Turmel
There are about five rabbit holes in that sense that I desperately want to go down and I'm not because I am a professional, darn it. But what I do want to do is talk about something that you spend some time on. And it's interesting to me that you broke it out as a separate item, okay? Because to me, this is part of the empowered employee thing and it's certainly important.

00:16:10:16 - 00:16:42:12
Wayne Turmel
And that is the idea of the analytics that we use to manage people and measure success and reward people. Are we are still using horse and buggy metrics and, you know, what's his face following people around in the factories in Buffalo doing time studies the idea that we're using the metrics, what's wrong with the metrics? We're using and how should we be measuring work instead?

00:16:42:14 - 00:16:47:11
Phil Simon
Oh, you want to talk about rabbit holes. That's all the time out of the way.

00:16:47:11 - 00:16:49:17
Wayne Turmel
Fluffy.

00:16:49:19 - 00:17:14:03
Phil Simon
I think you're thinking of Frederick Winslow Taylor from that. Sam Yep. There you go. You know, by way of background, I'm not anti data. I've written books about analytics, big data, data visualization. I think that data can certainly informed decisions. But when it comes to productivity, we've got a number of problems. First off, and Rodney Malar from Vox wrote a great piece on this.

00:17:14:03 - 00:17:33:18
Phil Simon
Of course, after my book came out and it was just a month ago, it was something about how companies are obsessed with productivity, but they can't define it. So what does it mean? Does it mean being in the office? Well, that's not true because we saw during the pandemic you could not go to an office and we struggled at first with Zoom and different tools, but we were, by all accounts, productive.

00:17:33:19 - 00:17:53:22
Phil Simon
Microsoft's done some fascinating research about not only were we as productive, but as possibly more so. In fact, they coined the term second shift. People were putting in another hour or two after dinner, so they weren't get deluged in the morning with messages or they could prove that they were working hard and not watching Game of Thrones or Better Call Saul.

00:17:54:00 - 00:18:23:11
Phil Simon
So there's that. But generally speaking, and this isn't limited to the world of remote work, but I am fascinated with good hearts, lore and Campbell's lore. And to paraphrase them, they kind of overlap. But the minute that you begin measuring something, it ceases to become an effective measure. So by way of example, as a former college professor in part, I was not tenured, so I would receive an offer in part, again based on my student evals because students know what they want.

00:18:23:12 - 00:18:39:23
Phil Simon
Right? Okay, I can get my student evals up from a five to a six. On a scale of seven, I'll just make it easy. You know what, Wayne? I know you missed your assignment. What the hell? Have another crack at it and you're going to give me a higher rating If I'm a hardass and I am, I'm not going to do that.

00:18:40:01 - 00:18:58:09
Phil Simon
And you're going to give me a lower rating. But I'd argue that I'm actually doing you a favor. Now, higher education aside, once you know that they're grading you on how often you come to the office, you can come to the office and check out right. I'm pretty sure that in an era of bring your own device, you can find ways to slack off.

00:18:58:11 - 00:19:18:11
Phil Simon
Then you see companies countering that with surveillance software, particularly for remote employees. And then there are programs that you can download that will basically enter keystrokes because of course, if you're doing things you and I both know, that means you're super productive. And if you're thinking and not touching your keyboard, then you can't be doing something worthwhile. So I don't have all the answers.

00:19:18:11 - 00:19:40:12
Phil Simon
But I do think that when we tend to quantify things, and especially if you're working in a remote or hybrid capacity and we're entering things, we're using applications, you're going to be able to come up with certain numbers, but they're not necessarily effective ones. And if you tell me what the numbers are going to be, I don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out how to game them.

00:19:40:14 - 00:20:05:14
Wayne Turmel
Thank you so much. That's fabulous. I told you people that this would be a very high level conversation and give you what's to think about. And I hope your head hurts right now. I really do. The book, The Nine, The Tech Talk. Tectonic Forces Bet Reshaping the Workplace is an excellent, excellent read. If you want just stuff to generate your thinking.

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:45:22
Wayne Turmel
Phil, you and I have had much longer conversations. They are much deeper rabbit holes and I hope that will continue. But thank you so much for being with us and just introducing some of these topics to us. I truly appreciate it. For those of you listening, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you want links to Phil's book and his work and to him, if you want a transcript of this show, because so much good stuff flew by fast visit long distance worklife dot com you can also by the way, speaking of Marisa, we are currently taking pet peeves and questions.

00:20:45:23 - 00:21:12:16
Wayne Turmel
Those episodes people really seem to enjoy and you don't have any problem complaining, so get those in there. We want to hear from you if you have not yet checked out. Kevin’s and my new book, The Long Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone's Success. By golly, please do so. We really appreciate it. If you're listening to this, this is unlikely to be your first podcast, so you know the drill.

00:21:12:20 - 00:21:40:11
Wayne Turmel
Like subscribe, tell your friends. If you didn't like it, keep your mouth shut. And if you want to reach us on either LinkedIn or by email, wayne@kevineikenberry.com, marisa@kevineikenberry.com. Phil Simon. Thank you so much, man. Good to talk to you. We really appreciate it. And for the rest of you, we will be back next week with another episode.

00:21:40:16 - 00:21:42:06
Wayne Turmel
Don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction to the podcast and guest Phil Simon
00:01:16 Discussing the nine trends shaping remote and hybrid work
00:02:51 Focus on the dispersed workplace and its impact on organizations
00:06:12 Importance of helping individuals prepare for remote work
00:07:26 The value of in-person collaboration and social ties
00:08:47 Teaching boundaries and creating a work destination
00:09:47 Example of Cisco rethinking the office space
00:10:38 Engagement comes from creating an engaging environment
00:11:00 Conclusion on creating a positive work environment
00:12:10 The dispersed workplace and the desire for flexibility
00:16:10 Outdated metrics and measuring productivity
00:17:14 Defining productivity and the shift in remote work
00:18:23 The flaws of quantifying and gaming productivity metrics
00:19:18 The ineffectiveness of quantified numbers in remote work
00:20:05 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Name: Phil Simon

What He Does: Workplace technology expert and author of The Nine: The Tectonic Forces Reshaping the Workplace

Notable: He also hosts the podcast, Conversations About Collaboration

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