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Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Managing Holidays on Remote Teams

During this time of year, we find that lots of offices either have employees taking time off or the office might actually shut down completely for a period of time. Wayne and Marisa discuss how this can work on remote teams, what international teams might need to be aware of, and how employees can help team members know that they're not going to be in the office.

**In this episode we accidentally said that Christmas Day fell on a Saturday this year, but it's actually on Sunday.**

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Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

No Hello Club

For many remote workers, seeing an instant message with nothing but “Hi” in it is a huge pet peeve. Which is why many are beginning to talk about something called the No Hello Club. Wayne and Marisa discuss what the No Hello Club is, why it’s important to be cognizant of the medium you’re communicating with, and why “treat others the way you want to be treated” is actually bad advice when it comes to communication.

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How To Avoid Relationship Strain When Working From Home

For some of us, working from home means having your home to yourself. But for many, including hosts Wayne and Marisa, there are other people at home while you're working. In this episode, we talk about some of the struggles that can happen when you can't separate your home and work life, how to create boundaries between you and others in your home so you can get some work done, and ways to connect with others throughout the day so they don't feel neglected.

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How to Conduct Performance Reviews for Remote Employees

Performance reviews can be hard enough, but how do you conduct them remotely? Wayne and Marisa cover how to give feedback when you can't see what or how they're doing the job, tips to make remote performance reviews effective, and what is the same compared to in-person reviews.

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Quiet Quitting and How to Handle It

Quiet quitting is a problem. When put on the spot, most remote team leaders agree that it's a problem. Remote workers are vulnerable to it - they can hide their failures or slip-ups from their team leader or colleagues - and that's where the problems start. Wayne and Marisa share what quiet quitting is, why it's happening, and how you can spot (and handle) quiet quitting in your organization.

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How to Spot and Combat Burnout When You Work Remotely

We're in an age of burnout. And a majority of those employees experiencing it, work from home full time. Wayne and Marisa discuss if working remotely is making us more stressed, what burnout looks like, how leaders can spot and prevent burnout on their remote teams, and what employees can do to prevent burnout themselves.

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Mandatory Office Days

Marisa asks Wayne about mandatory office days. What's the strategy behind them? Is this a way for management to bring everyone back to the office full time? Are we resistant to it because it's mandatory?

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Are Sick Days a Thing of the Past?

When you work from home, does it still make sense to take a sick day? Wayne and Marisa discuss why some think that sick days are a thing of the past, and why it is important for you to take your sick days when you need them. Even if you are working from home.

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Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Working Remotely

Busting the Myths of Remote Work

Wayne and Marisa chat about some remote work myths and whether or not they're true. They cover: whether or not brainstorming is impossible if you're remote, not being able to collaborate remotely, and whether or not innovation is stifled remotely.

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View Full Transcript

00:00:08:02 - 00:00:26:14
Wayne Turmel
Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Long-Distance Work Life Podcast, the place where we discuss what it takes to work and thrive and survive and keep the weasels at bay in remote and hybrid work. With me is my co-host and buddy Marisa.

00:00:26:14 - 00:00:27:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Hey, everybody.

00:00:27:05 - 00:01:01:15
Wayne
Hello. Hi, Marisa. And this is one of those episodes that we actually have been told by you that you really enjoy where Marisa goes to the giant pile of questions and there are piling up about remote work and chooses some more or less a random and gives me just enough warning that I'm prepared but not enough to be rehearsed on and so, Marisa, we have a couple of questions today with the same theme.

00:01:02:05 - 00:01:16:18
Marisa
Yeah. So this week I thought we would kind of take some of these remote work myths and kind of bust them essentially because we know that they're not true. But goodness knows on seeing it everywhere. So I thought we would start with those today. Is that alright?

00:01:17:11 - 00:01:21:22
Wayne
It's fine. I actually have been accused of looking like one of the guys from Mythbusters.

00:01:22:06 - 00:01:24:05
Marisa
So this is perfect.

00:01:24:06 - 00:01:25:14
Wayne
This is perfect. Yes.

00:01:26:21 - 00:01:49:10
Marisa
So one of the first myths that I see a lot is that brainstorming is impossible if you aren't in the office and, you know, I know for me personally, I actually got into a small LinkedIn disagreement with somebody about this a couple of weeks ago. And this idea that, like, we'll just because you're not in person doesn't mean you can't pick up the phone or start a zoom call.

00:01:49:14 - 00:01:51:10
Marisa
So do you have anything else about that?

00:01:51:16 - 00:02:19:10
Wayne
Yeah, I think that we have certain pre judgments about what brainstorming is and we have this image in our head of a bunch of people in a room gathered around a whiteboard or a flip chart, and everybody's kind of shouting out ideas and we're writing them down, right? And that's where all the good stuff happens.

00:02:19:10 - 00:02:19:18
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:02:19:18 - 00:02:23:06
Wayne
And it's based on some science.

00:02:23:23 - 00:02:31:23
Wayne
You know, there are things that we do in those situations, writing things down so that our brain continues to think about the.

00:02:32:01 - 00:02:32:09
Marisa
Course.

00:02:32:13 - 00:02:38:23
Wayne
On them and the idea of the energy that somebody says something and you go, No, but what about this?

00:02:39:14 - 00:02:41:10
Marisa
There is killed off of each other.

00:02:41:11 - 00:02:53:17
Wayne
There is a lot to that. And traditionally that's what brainstorming is. We forget, though, that those kind of brainstorming sessions also have some built in problems.

00:02:54:05 - 00:02:55:09
Marisa
Okay, so what are.

00:02:55:09 - 00:02:59:20
Wayne
Your things such as power dynamics at play?

00:03:00:04 - 00:03:00:20
Marisa
Absolutely.

00:03:00:22 - 00:03:27:13
Wayne
Where Marisa has this great idea and she's willing to go to the mattresses and I think she's insane. What I'm not going to fight with her about is, first of all, I have to sit next to her every day, and I'm not going to fight with her. You know, so-and-so's been here a long time and they're their ideas carry more weight or they are just frankly, a bit of a jerk.

00:03:27:13 - 00:03:54:14
Wayne
And if you disagree with them, it's going to get personal. So you sit back. Mm hmm. We have a lot of power. We are finding in certain surveys that, for example, some women and minorities prefer to work virtually because there isn't that physical energy. There isn't that dynamic. There isn't some guy getting loud and belligerent to get in the way of discussion.

00:03:55:03 - 00:03:56:08
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:03:56:08 - 00:04:27:05
Wayne
You know, synchronous meetings are not always productive and true brainstorming sessions. So what makes brainstorming work? You have to have people understand what it is they're trying to solve. So there has to be kind of a common mindset about. They have to be able to really contribute ideas and capture them and have them where people can see them and build off of them.

00:04:27:14 - 00:04:42:14
Wayne
Right. You have to be willing to go back and reexamine. You have to make sure that everybody understood it. So somebody needs to be moderating and kind of leading it. And you have to know when it's over.

00:04:43:06 - 00:04:45:19
Marisa
Right. Yeah, exactly. Otherwise it'll go forever.

00:04:46:02 - 00:05:13:12
Wayne
Otherwise it goes forever. Well, can you do those things asynchronously? I happen to believe that the best answer is kind of a mix of this and asynchronous. Not all brainstorming sessions need to be a meeting. That's one reason I have too many meetings. But there are ways, for example, that you can have. I'll just give you an example.

00:05:13:20 - 00:05:39:02
Wayne
One kind of process. You have a quick meeting. You define the problem. You say, this is what we need to do. By Thursday, we need to have an answer. And it goes back and they they think and they cogitate and they noodle and they put their ideas in a common place where everybody else can see them similar to writing them on a whiteboard, whether that's a slack or a team's channel or whatever it is.

00:05:39:19 - 00:05:56:04
Wayne
And people assuming that they are motivated and want to solve the problem and want to be part of the brainstorm course entirely separate conversation. But if they are motivated, they can look at that and they could. Then maybe it's time for another synchronous meeting.

00:05:56:22 - 00:05:59:14
Marisa
Right? Yeah. Now you have all the ideas. Let's go through.

00:05:59:16 - 00:06:31:12
Wayne
This. What the heck was that? Right. What are you talking about? Yeah. Or what did you mean by this? And so you clarify it, you talk about it, you kind of eliminate the things that aren't relevant. And then you go on, you do a second batch of thinking about it. Okay. One of the things about traditional brainstorming, which has always frustrated me, is I'm one of those people, the minute I leave the room and go, oh, man, you know what I just thought of?

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:33:14
Marisa
Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:33:14 - 00:06:59:15
Wayne
Synchronous brainstorming sessions don't allow for that. Right. This pressure of, hey, great, we reached consensus here. We're out of here. On to the next problem, and there's no time to go back and add more thought to it. So there are ways of doing synchronous and asynchronous brainstorming that don't involve everybody being in the room at the same time.

00:07:00:02 - 00:07:04:15
Wayne
What it does require, though, is a high degree of engagement and motivation.

00:07:05:00 - 00:07:05:13
Marisa
Of course.

00:07:06:08 - 00:07:34:16
Wayne
What that generally means is you have fewer people working on the brain stem, bringing in the whole team. You bring in the people who are most highly motivated, who have a high stake in that. There is an inherent danger of that is that you don't get the outsider opinion. Mm hmm. On the other hand, how often in a team meeting does somebody who isn't involved with this process really contribute?

00:07:35:01 - 00:07:36:13
Marisa
Right. Yeah, it's a little bit of both.

00:07:36:21 - 00:08:02:03
Wayne
In a perfect world, it would, you know, you want that outsider opinion. But generally, asynchronous brainstorming is a little bit smaller group tighter timeframes, not as tight as we're going to walk into the meeting. We're going to brainstorm. We're going to walk out with an answer, of course, but some tight time frames and people are expected to hold up their end of the bargain.

00:08:02:14 - 00:08:05:00
Marisa
Of course. Yeah. You want them to give their input.

00:08:06:17 - 00:08:18:08
Wayne
And you expect it and it's a performance expectation. There are no shortage of teams who can prove that on a regular basis, not the least of which is us.

00:08:19:00 - 00:08:19:09
Marisa
Right.

00:08:20:17 - 00:08:39:15
Wayne
I mean, on a very small scale, this podcast was originated, hosted, all put together wi find guests. We figure out what we're going to talk about. We run the thing, and you and I have not seen each other.

00:08:40:08 - 00:08:48:17
Marisa
Uh, did we see each other last year, right before the team meetings? Nope. So two years, three years.

00:08:48:17 - 00:08:59:02
Wayne
And two years since we've been in the same room. You know, not all brainstorming is equal. Not all problems are equal.

00:08:59:10 - 00:08:59:22
Marisa
Of course.

00:09:00:18 - 00:09:13:05
Wayne
So let's be reasonable about that. But it can, in fact, be done. There's a simple example. Same with Well then what's the next question on your list here?

00:09:13:13 - 00:09:31:20
Marisa
Yeah. So two going on with that and that absolutely coincides with what we were just talking about. Like there's this myth that you can't collaborate remotely either. I mean, you and I have been collaborating about this podcasts, you know, since last December when I brought it up to you. And we haven't seen each other in person in two years.

00:09:32:10 - 00:10:06:22
Wayne
All right. Can you collab? Yes, you can collaborate asynchronously. Mm hmm. We see plenty of examples of this in technology. We see plenty examples. You know, my favorite example always is the Hubble telescope, which went into space, and it wasn't like people could actually go to the telescope and fix it. It was fixed at a pretty good distance by people all over the world and they made the darn thing work.

00:10:07:03 - 00:10:07:13
Marisa
Yeah.

00:10:08:10 - 00:10:15:16
Wayne
There are plenty of examples of having it work. Here's the challenge and here's why people say it doesn't work.

00:10:16:01 - 00:10:16:09
Marisa
Okay.

00:10:17:12 - 00:10:44:05
Wayne
Very similar to the brainstorming thing. Number one is the social norms and the shorthand that happens when people know each other and they know each other's work style and they know that you don't bug Marissa in the morning and that Wayne is completely useless in the afternoon. And if you give Wayne too much detail, his head will explode.

00:10:44:15 - 00:10:49:04
Wayne
Right. You don't give Guy enough detail. He will take your life and you need to.

00:10:49:05 - 00:10:51:03
Marisa
He'll just ask you questions until you get the.

00:10:51:03 - 00:10:54:12
Wayne
Dynamics of how we all work together.

00:10:54:22 - 00:10:55:08
Marisa
Right.

00:10:55:08 - 00:11:12:21
Wayne
You learn that kind of by osmosis when you work with people every day. You develop that shorthand, that helps make work happen and bring ideas and create great results.

00:11:13:09 - 00:11:13:15
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:11:14:07 - 00:11:21:06
Wayne
Can that happen in a virtual environment? Yes. Does it happen as easily? The answer is no.

00:11:21:15 - 00:11:23:18
Marisa
Right.

00:11:24:13 - 00:11:50:04
Wayne
So it means that your team has to take the time to understand each other. Things like. And this isn't a panacea by any stretch of the imagination, but things like. Do you all know each other's desk profiles? Right. And your work is, you know, your work styles, whether that's disc or 16 types or whatever.

00:11:50:19 - 00:11:53:18
Marisa
Yes. We'll have a link in the show. Notes to desks, personality testing.

00:11:53:23 - 00:12:15:04
Wayne
You know what? And I will confess to being a little cynical about all of those, because the purpose of them is not that one is brilliant and the rest are all wrong. Of course, that it's a snapshot in time that gives you enough information that you can be informed how to best work with this person.

00:12:15:10 - 00:12:21:13
Marisa
Yeah, it's a tool, just like anything else. And it's also not a way to pigeonhole people. But that's a totally different conversation, right?

00:12:21:20 - 00:12:33:09
Wayne
Right. But if I know, oh, this person is a big detail person, I might pick that up in conversation. But if I know that going in, it's going to help me.

00:12:34:01 - 00:12:34:16
Marisa
Of course.

00:12:34:17 - 00:12:50:17
Wayne
Be more effective in working with that person. There are plenty of organizations that work virtually and managed to collaborate and create good work. Here's the thing about that. It's not natural.

00:12:51:14 - 00:12:51:23
Marisa
Okay.

00:12:52:08 - 00:12:55:19
Wayne
It is literally unnatural. We are social creatures.

00:12:56:02 - 00:12:56:11
Marisa
Right.

00:12:56:14 - 00:13:12:00
Wayne
Want, you know, most of us, most human beings get little dopamine blasts of being with and laughing and having fun and sharing a pizza and, you know, being silly and all of that stuff.

00:13:12:01 - 00:13:12:15
Marisa
Of course.

00:13:12:16 - 00:13:24:15
Wayne
Helps us collaborate and we are overcoming some of that with distance. Again, though, it requires a higher level of proactivity from the people involved.

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:49:05
Marisa
Right. I was going to say some of the tools. I mean, I know that we've been talking about asynchronous work a lot here recently, but like some of the other tools that I've seen too, like I know Zoom whiteboards, if I remember correctly. Now, they have an asynchronous option for those. Another tool that we've utilized a little bit here, other than Zoom is Slack has something called huddles.

00:13:49:05 - 00:14:13:06
Marisa
Now that if you if you're talking to somebody in a Slack chat and you're like, hey, actually, this would be way better as a voice chat, you hit a button. And it's I mean, it's faster than a phone call at this point, and they're going to add video later this fall. So, I mean, there are ways to simulate this simulate this whole concept of coming down the hallway and, hey, knock on your door.

00:14:13:13 - 00:14:15:14
Marisa
I need to talk to you about this.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:24:00
Wayne
Here is the challenge with that. And it's okay, real challenge. And I know because I am one of those people who are challenged by this.

00:14:24:05 - 00:14:24:12
Marisa
Okay.

00:14:25:17 - 00:14:29:04
Wayne
Technology works. If you use it.

00:14:29:16 - 00:14:30:05
Marisa
Of course.

00:14:30:20 - 00:14:54:22
Wayne
If you know how to use it, if you understand why it adds value. And it's not just something else I need to learn. Right. And collaboration is a whole lot easier, as you say, with slack huddles, you're able to get a voice call and soon the video call with the push of a button that doesn't require, hey, let's get on a different tool.

00:14:54:22 - 00:14:56:16
Wayne
Let's log into something else.

00:14:57:02 - 00:14:58:01
Marisa
The scheduling.

00:14:58:02 - 00:15:11:20
Wayne
For it. The more it fits into the workflow and the fewer log ins and passwords and extra things and oh, good. I need to learn a whole new tool.

00:15:12:01 - 00:15:12:11
Marisa
Right.

00:15:13:03 - 00:15:45:07
Wayne
Right. The less of that that goes on, the more people are likely to adopt and use the tool quickly and efficiently. The problem with a lot of technology, and I talk to technology people all the time who say we've got a great solution to this time. And I go, okay, show me. And he shows me. And yeah, it does exactly what they say it's going to do, but it's a separate license, which means I have to get somebody to pay for it.

00:15:45:23 - 00:15:51:14
Wayne
It's more like this tool than that tool. And we use that tool here.

00:15:52:03 - 00:15:52:14
Marisa
Right.

00:15:52:15 - 00:16:04:09
Wayne
Right. Or it's based on this platform. But we don't use that here. It's Google based. But we're a microsoft House or vice versa.

00:16:04:11 - 00:16:04:22
Marisa
Right.

00:16:05:05 - 00:16:16:23
Wayne
And they don't always play well together. So the technology exists. But let's not pretend that just because the technology exists, there aren't barriers to that happening.

00:16:17:07 - 00:16:18:00
Marisa
Of course, and.

00:16:18:00 - 00:16:37:19
Wayne
They're very real. I am an old man with a lot going on. If what I am doing works, it takes a fair amount to get me to adopt a new tool or a new technology until I see proof of concept, until I see that it's not a big deal, or until I am forced kicking and screaming. Yes.

00:16:38:12 - 00:16:42:13
Marisa
Yeah. You really have to convince you why it's a better option. I totally understand that.

00:16:43:04 - 00:16:51:23
Wayne
You know, I have. I have survived. The Betamax is better than VHS wars.

00:16:51:23 - 00:16:53:04
Marisa
And we see how that went.

00:16:53:21 - 00:17:05:16
Wayne
Right. And we see how that went because not only but Betamax is a superior system. I don't care. I know how to use VHS. I can get VHS at the corner store. I'm going to use the.

00:17:06:03 - 00:17:08:20
Marisa
Right, right. And we've seen examples of that for a long time.

00:17:09:03 - 00:17:13:20
Wayne
It's gone forever anyway. And now it's CDs. And now it's something else.

00:17:14:03 - 00:17:14:11
Marisa
Right.

00:17:15:13 - 00:17:21:05
Wayne
So, yes. Can you collaborate? Yes. I know. There's a third one.

00:17:21:13 - 00:17:40:02
Marisa
Yeah. So there's a third one. It really kind of falls under this whole concept of also like that innovation is stifled when working remotely. There are some people out there that think there's no way you can be innovative because you're remote and you're not right there in front of everybody. And Bob, we both know that's not really true either.

00:17:40:16 - 00:18:15:03
Wayne
I actually have some sympathy for people who say this because innovation is a different animal. Okay. Brainstorming, collaboration, there is a defined problem and trying to address that defined problem. And we're all focused on that innovation is usually incremental. It's looking at something in a different way, looking at ways something can be improved or and it very seldom comes from the people on the inside.

00:18:16:01 - 00:18:16:11
Marisa
Okay.

00:18:17:05 - 00:18:28:19
Wayne
And one of the dynamics that happens is that the nuclear team, when we work remotely, can become very, very strong and very, very tight.

00:18:29:06 - 00:18:30:07
Marisa
Of course.

00:18:30:07 - 00:18:56:17
Wayne
What doesn't happen, though, is the conversations with people in other departments and the people in the organization who might be in the building. But you don't have the hallway conversation with the person from marketing or the person from engineering who, you know, has this kind of crazy idea. And that conversation generally doesn't happen the same way when we're remote.

00:18:57:15 - 00:18:57:23
Marisa
Okay.

00:18:58:12 - 00:19:27:06
Wayne
I think that and I don't know quite how to do this. There are organizations that are doing this just fine. But I think that for most people, innovation action comes from the edges and from comes from the outside. And I think that in a remote and a hybrid world, we have to find ways to have those conversations outside of our nuclear team.

00:19:27:11 - 00:19:42:00
Wayne
We need to find ways to cross-pollinate ideas within departments. We need to be free to have conversations that aren't transactional. To just have those. She Wouldn't it be cool conversations?

00:19:42:16 - 00:20:04:03
Marisa
Because I know that something I've seen a lot of people talk about and I mean, granted, it's slightly different. It's before the conversation is this idea that well because we're working remotely now, we're not getting quiet is interrupted as much or we have the ability to, you know, shut off your notifications for a bit and do this deep work thinking that you may not have been able to do when you were in the office, because now nobody's bothering you.

00:20:04:03 - 00:20:25:15
Marisa
And now there's not Susie Crunch in or chips to cubicles down or whatever. And so there is this ability to to think about these larger things and to think about this big picture stuff and to maybe come up with some of those innovative ideas. But you're absolutely right. Like, okay, I have this idea, but if I never talk to Joe in engineering about that, well, then who cares?

00:20:25:20 - 00:20:50:17
Wayne
That's the thing is, yes, we have the chance to daydream and we do have the chance. But do you have a the motivation? What's in it for you to raise the topic? Of course. Bring it up. Right. And the second thing is, is there a mechanism is there a way to share this and have these conversations? Is it encouraged in the organization to have Blue Sky conversations?

00:20:51:03 - 00:20:51:11
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:20:52:04 - 00:21:27:07
Wayne
And those generally don't happen in a remote environment because we are very transactional and we are focused on tasks and what's happening at the moment. So for innovation to occur, we need to be far more proactive about sharing those ideas and seeking out the opinions of others. And then we need a mechanism to actually talk about the fine and skunkworks, the problem or the innovation.

00:21:27:16 - 00:21:28:21
Marisa
Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:29:01 - 00:21:36:01
Wayne
And so can innovation be done? There are plenty of examples.

00:21:36:06 - 00:21:40:01
Marisa
Yeah, there are big companies that have been completely remote for a long time doing the same thing.

00:21:40:02 - 00:21:46:08
Wayne
Birds. Angry Birds was not created by people who up to the same office every day.

00:21:46:20 - 00:21:50:17
Marisa
Right. Yeah. And was. And look how large that is. Yeah.

00:21:52:02 - 00:22:11:14
Wayne
And the innovative I mean, nobody had an idea like that as a way to run a game in that way. So can you innovate? Yes. Is it easy? No. And I think innovation is perhaps tougher than brainstorming and collaboration, which are much more task and outcome defined.

00:22:12:02 - 00:22:16:17
Marisa
That totally makes sense. It's more big picture thinking. It's harder to do. Absolutely.

00:22:16:19 - 00:22:17:03
Wayne
There.

00:22:17:19 - 00:22:24:16
Marisa
So can we consider all three of these myths busted with a little bit of here and there?

00:22:25:00 - 00:22:31:13
Wayne
Two of them, I think. Two of them, I think, are busted. One is slightly damaged.

00:22:31:20 - 00:22:51:08
Marisa
Societally damage. I'll take it. I will take it. If you guys have any other myths that you would like us to talk about, whether we confirm that they are true or bust them, by all means, let us know. And I want to thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life and for shownotes transcripts and other resources.

00:22:51:08 - 00:23:07:16
Marisa
Make sure that you're visiting longdistanceworklife.com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and reveal that helps our show reach more teammates and leaders just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our shownotes.

00:23:07:21 - 00:23:40:17
Marisa
And let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest one of these myths for us to bust in a future episode. And lastly, if you'd like to gain greater confidence free with your virtual team, sign up for our Demystifying Remote Leadership video series at long distance work life dot com slash video. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

Ask Wayne Anything, Working Remotely

What is a Head of Remote?

Head of Remote, Chief Remote Officer, Director of Remote Work, we've heard this position called many things. But what is a Head of Remote anyway? Marisa asks Wayne about what a Head of Remote does and if companies need this position or not.

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00:00:09:06 - 00:00:21:18
Marisa
Welcome back to the Long-Distance Worklife where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker, and joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Say hi, Wayne.

00:00:23:02 - 00:00:27:05
Wayne
Hi. And yes, please call me an expert. And everybody immediately goes.

00:00:28:19 - 00:00:30:07
Marisa
Okay, well, compared to me.

00:00:30:20 - 00:00:32:13
Wayne
Well, if we but we we

00:00:32:13 - 00:00:33:03
Marisa
You wrote the book!

00:00:33:03 - 00:00:40:07
Wayne
We're having this discussion about the fact that the minute you call yourself a guru, you automatically put this giant target on your back.

00:00:41:11 - 00:01:10:06
Marisa
Guru ninja, that's a little different. Expert is a totally different ball game. But speaking of titles, I wanted to talk about head of remote. So you know, we see this under many names. You see head of remote, you see chief remote officer, director of remote. There's plenty more that I could go on and on with. But I wanted to boil it down to let's just start with what is a head of remote anyway?

00:01:10:11 - 00:01:20:15
Wayne
What is a head of remote? If you think about the unique challenges of remote work in an organization.

00:01:20:15 - 00:01:21:03
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:01:21:03 - 00:01:22:12
Wayne
There are a lot of moving parts.

00:01:22:19 - 00:01:23:06
Marisa
Of course.

00:01:23:16 - 00:01:39:10
Wayne
There's as. How do we hire and find people? There's. What technology should we be using? There's what are the processes that we're going to institute? What infrastructure do we need to all those things. Right.

00:01:39:10 - 00:01:39:17
Marisa
Right.

00:01:40:05 - 00:01:48:03
Wayne
And they all belong to different pieces of it. A lot of organizations leave all the technology decisions to it.

00:01:48:17 - 00:01:52:02
Marisa
Mm hmm. Which may or may not be the greatest decision.

00:01:52:06 - 00:02:38:00
Wayne
I love to love and respect to the i.t people, but they should not be making all the decisions. Right? Right. I t doesn't really know and work every day with the same processes and tools that the sales team does, which is different than the accounting team, which is different than somebody else. And this is how organizations wind up with moderately okay tools because i.t is looking for one thing, one ring to rule them all so that they're not having to learn and support eight different tools and and they may or may not be doing the right thing for the various business units.

00:02:38:00 - 00:02:41:13
Wayne
That's just an example. Right. Not to pick on them.

00:02:41:13 - 00:02:43:23
Wayne
Yeah. Not a criticism. Goodness knows, I'm IT too.

00:02:45:07 - 00:02:52:11
Wayne
But the fact remains that in most organizations, nobody owns this stuff.

00:02:52:22 - 00:02:53:06
Marisa
Right.

00:02:53:17 - 00:03:16:22
Wayne
It's nobody's job. Right. And so you've got H.R. desperately trying to put policies in place and you've got managers who are just running their little fiefdoms. The way they're running their little fiefdoms. Right. I'm going. No, this is the tool you're going to use. And I'm probably going to say a lot of really bad things about Microsoft teams today.

00:03:17:14 - 00:03:18:03
Marisa
Okay.

00:03:19:02 - 00:03:24:22
Wayne
But it's because Microsoft Teams is the attempt to find one ring to rule them all.

00:03:25:09 - 00:03:25:21
Marisa
Gotcha.

00:03:26:10 - 00:03:28:14
Wayne
And it wasn't ready.

00:03:29:10 - 00:03:31:16
Marisa
Right. We've talked about this in the previous book.

00:03:31:16 - 00:03:41:00
Wayne
We're down. We'll go down that rabbit hole, I'm sure. The point is that the idea of a head of remote crow, whatever you want to call.

00:03:41:00 - 00:03:41:15
Marisa
It, right.

00:03:41:15 - 00:04:11:05
Wayne
Is a desperate attempt for somebody to take ownership of this particular challenge. And at the moment, you know, people stuck their fingers in the dam kind of as best they could when pandemic hit. And hey, I always said, you know, before the pandemic, I talked to so many organizations that, oh, yeah, we're putting our plan together, we're putting our strategy together.

00:04:11:09 - 00:04:15:01
Wayne
In the next six months, we're going to create a strategy.

00:04:15:09 - 00:04:15:18
Marisa
Yeah.

00:04:16:01 - 00:04:21:08
Wayne
And then they got thrown in the deep end and strategy was replaced by survival.

00:04:21:16 - 00:04:25:14
Marisa
Yeah. Six months became six days. What's the calories in something?

00:04:25:14 - 00:04:38:17
Wayne
Remember in January of 20? Talking to a client this big law firm that was very proud of the fact that by June, they were going to have, I think, 60% telework.

00:04:39:04 - 00:04:39:10
Marisa
Okay.

00:04:39:20 - 00:04:54:02
Wayne
As they called it at that time. And by March 17th, it was 100% right. Right. I mean, this pandemic is kind of the perfect example of if you want to hear God laugh, tell them your plans.

00:04:54:09 - 00:04:55:13
Marisa
Right. Absolutely.

00:04:56:14 - 00:05:15:21
Wayne
And so, you know, everybody was treading water and thinking about it and doing the best they could. And some organizations are very nimble and fast and figured it out. Of course, smaller organizations have an easier time making those decisions than larger organizations.

00:05:15:21 - 00:05:17:00
Marisa
Right. Less people to manage.

00:05:17:19 - 00:05:40:07
Wayne
Well, there's less people to manage. There's fewer moving parts. And it's fewer people with more responsibility. I mean, let's just take Kevin Eikenberry group. Yes. 13 people. Kevin's name is on the door. Ultimately, he makes the big, important decisions. Right. We advise and consent and do all that good.

00:05:40:12 - 00:05:41:06
Marisa
We do the research.

00:05:41:06 - 00:05:43:13
Wayne
At the end of the day. Kevin makes the call.

00:05:43:20 - 00:05:46:00
Marisa
Right.

00:05:46:02 - 00:05:58:01
Wayne
Well, you know, does the CEO of Chase Bank need to be down in the weeds about implementing hybrid work?

00:05:58:07 - 00:06:00:04
Marisa
Right. He's going to delegate that to somebody else.

00:06:00:10 - 00:06:05:20
Wayne
It needs to be. But now who gets it? Is it the head of major? Is it right?

00:06:06:05 - 00:06:07:11
Marisa
Hence, head of remote. Okay.

00:06:08:07 - 00:06:37:06
Wayne
And so it's just a way of making sure that somebody owns it, that somebody is connecting the human piece, the technology piece, the process piece, the paperwork piece. You know, there are things that most of us mere mortals never think about. If you've got people in different states, have you file taxes in those states, and what are the labor laws in one state that doesn't allow massive amounts of overtime in another?

00:06:37:13 - 00:06:56:14
Wayne
And, you know, there are so many moving parts as we move to hybrid work that somebody needs to own that. Now, you know. Head of remote. Chief Remote Officer I mean, any time you put a chief in front of anything.

00:06:57:14 - 00:06:59:01
Marisa
Yeah.

00:06:59:01 - 00:07:18:01
Wayne
Because some organizations have a vice president of h.r. Others have a chief human resources officer. What that does is it's kind of like in government, it's the president or the prime minister's cabinet. When you give somebody a C title, you are ensuring them a place at the table.

00:07:18:13 - 00:07:20:22
Marisa
Right. Yeah. They're part of the C-suite now.

00:07:21:01 - 00:07:27:17
Wayne
And somebody with that responsibility is communicating at the very highest levels.

00:07:28:08 - 00:07:29:09
Marisa
Right. That makes sense.

00:07:29:22 - 00:07:48:15
Wayne
So it's and it gets a little bit crazy. I am not a big believer in titles. You know, the example is always in the banking industry. You know, we'll give you in title a title in lieu of a raise. And so everybody in the bank is a vice president.

00:07:49:00 - 00:07:49:08
Marisa
Yeah.

00:07:50:19 - 00:07:59:17
Wayne
You know, and a lot of organizations, people make up their own titles. I mean, we were making fun of people who call them so well for a while.

00:07:59:19 - 00:08:01:11
Marisa
Yeah, I was a web guru.

00:08:01:22 - 00:08:06:23
Wayne
That was a web guru. That's what it said on your card. That's how we introduced you to everybody.

00:08:07:06 - 00:08:10:23
Marisa
That was the job title when I applied. So that's.

00:08:11:00 - 00:08:25:02
Wayne
What I said. I'm going, What? What are we looking for? Oh, we're looking for a web guru. Oh, look, there's your job title. That's right. You know, because titles don't mean anything to the rest of the world.

00:08:25:13 - 00:08:26:06
Marisa
Right. Kevin.

00:08:27:06 - 00:08:38:02
Wayne
Who is, you know, one of the world's leading experts on leadership and it's his company. So he would normally be the CEO or the president. He is the chief potential officer.

00:08:39:13 - 00:08:41:17
Marisa
Yup. Which is nothing to anyone else.

00:08:41:23 - 00:08:48:19
Wayne
I have busted his chops more than once. I mean, what does that even mean?

00:08:48:23 - 00:08:50:06
Marisa
And his response was.

00:08:51:06 - 00:09:14:10
Wayne
I don't know that he's ever really responded. I mean, I'm assuming that it's about bringing out the best in people. And, of course, that's what we do here. And, you know, Kevin is all sunshine and light as opposed to Mr. Cynical here. And it is something different than chief executive officer or president. I mean, first of all, it's the Kevin Eikenberry group.

00:09:14:10 - 00:09:19:06
Wayne
You don't need to be a business strategy genius to figure out that he's the boss.

00:09:19:23 - 00:09:20:11
Marisa
Right.

00:09:21:00 - 00:09:37:03
Wayne
So, you know, call it Fred for all it matters. It's it's the job. So I'm not a big fan of titles. Right. And we know this in our work with leaders, you can be a manager and not be a leader.

00:09:38:02 - 00:09:40:00
Marisa
And you can be a leader and not be a manager.

00:09:40:01 - 00:09:53:01
Wayne
Well, and we kind of differentiate that. And maybe folks have heard us talk about this before on the podcast. But there are large AL leaders and small leaders. And the large AL leaders are the ones with the job description.

00:09:53:22 - 00:09:54:15
Marisa
That we are.

00:09:54:15 - 00:10:03:21
Wayne
Leaders. We are senior leaders. We are managers. We are small l leaders are actually far more powerful. These are the people who exhibit leadership behavior.

00:10:04:13 - 00:10:06:07
Marisa
They have influence and potential.

00:10:06:12 - 00:10:23:22
Wayne
They have influence and they make an effort and they do what they can to make the organization and the people around them better. They exhibit leadership behaviors, but they don't have the nametag that says leader. I mean, not to embarrass you. You are a very good example of.

00:10:24:03 - 00:10:24:15
Marisa
Thank you.

00:10:24:15 - 00:10:42:09
Wayne
I mean, if you look at the org chart of Kevin Eikenberry group, you know. Oh, yeah. Or somewhere between plankton and kelp. Absolutely. Actual food chain. Um, if you look at your importance to the organization, how people respect you, how they work with you, you are far more important.

00:10:42:19 - 00:10:46:02
Marisa
Yeah, I lead projects. I don't necessarily lead people.

00:10:46:02 - 00:10:55:00
Wayne
I don't have you don't have anybody answering to you. Exactly right. But there is no doubt in anybody's mind in this organization that you are a leader.

00:10:56:07 - 00:10:58:22
Marisa
As could be said of many others of us do well.

00:10:59:12 - 00:11:07:16
Wayne
But we hire for that course trait. And, you know, we teach this stuff. It would be really awful if we had a bunch of sheep.

00:11:08:02 - 00:11:08:16
Marisa
Right here.

00:11:09:00 - 00:11:33:00
Wayne
In your organization. But to get back to the point of yes, sation, which is around title. So what does a chief remote officer ahead of remote? There are a couple of things at this stage of where organizations are. This is a combination of project management.

00:11:33:12 - 00:11:33:21
Marisa
Okay.

00:11:34:09 - 00:12:03:17
Wayne
Because organizations are putting i.t. Decisions in place. There's h.r. Is updating its policies on performance reviews and and how we onboard people and all the stuff that h.r. does. It is doing its thing. You know, we've got to put the financial processes in place to make sure people get paid and get their taxes taken out and, you know, their benefits apply and all that good stuff.

00:12:04:03 - 00:12:11:00
Wayne
So there's a lot of moving pieces. And so essentially a a good head of remote is the project manager.

00:12:11:02 - 00:12:12:14
Marisa
Okay. For not just.

00:12:13:19 - 00:12:26:03
Wayne
Now, who do they answer to this? Depends whether it is a big enough project, but it's a big enough project that in most organizations they need at least answer to a VP.

00:12:26:17 - 00:12:27:00
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:12:27:18 - 00:12:35:04
Wayne
And in a medium sized or a small organization, they're going to want access to the C-suite.

00:12:35:13 - 00:12:36:19
Marisa
Absolutely. That makes sense.

00:12:37:03 - 00:12:44:11
Wayne
So it's partly project management and to be really effective. It's also change management.

00:12:44:22 - 00:12:45:07
Marisa
Okay.

00:12:45:11 - 00:12:52:23
Wayne
Which is a project management is a piece of that. Change management is largely a people skill.

00:12:53:10 - 00:12:58:02
Marisa
Yes. Yeah. Because you have to walk people through those changes and let's get real. Not everybody likes change.

00:12:58:09 - 00:13:40:14
Wayne
Not everybody likes change. You know, it's the whole move my cheese conversation. It's but so there is this very big leader, people, leadership, pieces, project leadership. And then there's the people leadership piece. So, you know, does your organization need a head of remote? Do they need somebody needs to own it? I think in a lot of organizations, probably the kinds of organizations, the size of organizations that the people listening to this podcast are in, it's probably a project manager piece.

00:13:41:07 - 00:13:42:08
Marisa
Okay. That makes sense.

00:13:42:08 - 00:13:45:21
Wayne
And the question then becomes, is this a temporary.

00:13:46:22 - 00:13:49:18
Marisa
Yes. I was going to ask you about that. Like, I know.

00:13:50:13 - 00:13:51:00
Wayne
I saw the.

00:13:51:04 - 00:13:55:01
Marisa
I know you're answering all my questions before I can ask them.

00:13:55:01 - 00:14:00:12
Wayne
We're trying to make this sound like it's an actual conversation.

00:14:00:22 - 00:14:03:20
Marisa
Yes. So is this a long term? Yeah, I.

00:14:03:20 - 00:14:07:14
Wayne
Think, again, it will depend on the organization.

00:14:08:00 - 00:14:08:12
Marisa
Makes sense.

00:14:09:01 - 00:14:29:13
Wayne
You know, because once the pieces are in place, once we have MHR policy and a hiring policy and onboarding policy and you know, we know are people supposed to come into the office X number of days or not and all that stuff gets figured out? It's pretty much just keeping the plates spinning.

00:14:30:15 - 00:14:31:06
Marisa
That makes sense.

00:14:32:01 - 00:14:40:16
Wayne
Now, that is presuming that we reach some kind of Stacey's right. Right.

00:14:40:16 - 00:14:42:11
Marisa
Some of us are still trying to find the station.

00:14:42:16 - 00:15:03:03
Wayne
That at some point we reached something that becomes the new normal, which people have even stopped saying even. Right. Like they're beyond hoping that there actually is a new normal. But at some point, the organization, each organization will reach a point where the music stops and everybody's found the chair.

00:15:03:09 - 00:15:05:07
Marisa
Right. Yeah. We're slowly getting there.

00:15:05:23 - 00:15:08:19
Wayne
And it's going to be longer than people think.

00:15:08:23 - 00:15:09:10
Marisa
Of course.

00:15:09:17 - 00:15:32:21
Wayne
But at some point, do you does your organization reach a point where, oh, okay, we know how this works. We know what our culture is. We know how we're going to work together. We know how all the different departments fit together. And we're maximizing our people and their ability to have flexible and hybrid work.

00:15:33:07 - 00:15:33:11
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:15:34:07 - 00:15:46:17
Wayne
Then does the piece of that go back to H.R.? Right. Go back, you know. Or does that get rolled under something like chief operating officer?

00:15:47:04 - 00:15:48:11
Marisa
Right. Okay. That makes sense.

00:15:48:16 - 00:15:59:19
Wayne
Which is a role that already exists that is supposed to do the day to day operations of the organization. Well, realistically, I guess this stuff fits under there.

00:16:00:10 - 00:16:02:00
Marisa
Gotcha. I hadn't thought about it like that, but.

00:16:02:00 - 00:16:11:14
Wayne
The average Chibok chief, chief operating officer and Dr. Floyd to the front desk, please. The average chief operating officer.

00:16:11:14 - 00:16:11:21
Marisa
Right.

00:16:12:15 - 00:16:21:15
Wayne
Now has enough on their plate that they don't need to be focusing on this specific head of remote role.

00:16:21:23 - 00:16:22:10
Marisa
Gotcha.

00:16:22:10 - 00:16:26:22
Wayne
Right. That person probably logically answers to the CEO.

00:16:27:20 - 00:16:28:21
Marisa
That totally makes sense.

00:16:29:09 - 00:16:40:23
Wayne
So this is all part of a larger thing, which is we are and people are underestimating what a seismic change we've gone through.

00:16:41:21 - 00:16:42:06
Marisa
Yeah.

00:16:43:03 - 00:17:02:16
Wayne
The world has changed completely. It's never going back to what it was. And I know a lot of people want to. And, you know, Boris Johnson can say everybody needs to come back to the city of London and the mayor of Seattle can say, for the love of God, everybody come back to Seattle and, you know.

00:17:02:20 - 00:17:03:19
Marisa
It's just not happening.

00:17:04:01 - 00:17:27:17
Wayne
Jamie Dimon can say, if you come into the office, you're great. And if you don't come into the office, you've basically derailed your career. And they can say that all they want. And in certain industries and certain organizations, that may be true. I think they are just a little late catching up to how seismic the change has been.

00:17:28:04 - 00:17:28:14
Marisa
Yes.

00:17:30:00 - 00:17:50:09
Wayne
But people need leadership to go through this kind of seismic change. They need leadership in terms of providing accountability. Right. Who's responsible for this? Right. They need leadership in terms of giving people confidence in the organization that somebody is actually looking at this stuff.

00:17:50:09 - 00:17:52:20
Marisa
Yeah. Somebody is advocating for the remote workers.

00:17:53:19 - 00:18:21:17
Wayne
And they need they need to feel confident that the information coming from that person is going to be accurate and transparent. For any of you who are listening to this going, oh, I should try to be you know, I should see if they'll make me chief remote officer, which by the way, I am all about people creating jobs.

00:18:21:21 - 00:18:30:12
Wayne
Oh, yeah. So if you're listening to this and you go, you know what, somebody needs to do this in our organization and I'm that person. God love you have at it.

00:18:31:01 - 00:18:33:06
Marisa
And if you do it successfully, tell us about it.

00:18:34:03 - 00:18:34:14
Wayne
Yes.

00:18:34:14 - 00:18:36:02
Marisa
We want this to be a great story.

00:18:37:12 - 00:19:04:09
Wayne
And one of the hardest parts about that job is going to be that there is so much uncertainty and ambiguity. Right. There is going to be a lot of we think this is what's going to happen. And then you get the big reality pie in the face or the technology Warren supported or whatever. And you have to come back to people and go, okay, it's not going to be exactly what we thought.

00:19:04:21 - 00:19:06:08
Marisa
Yes, you deserve the right to change your mind.

00:19:06:17 - 00:19:33:14
Wayne
If you are not careful, it's very easy to look like you were lying. Yeah, like you were blowing smoke up people's skirt. They. You were, you know, trying to not give them the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is sometimes circumstances change and how you communicate that. And this is a whole other topic for a whole other show is communicating change and doing all that good stuff, of course.

00:19:34:03 - 00:19:53:14
Wayne
But, you know, that's going to be the hardest. But yes, you need the project management graphing org chart skills to do the job as a project manager. But the biggest piece is going to be dealing with the ambiguity in a way that still builds trust and by it.

00:19:54:15 - 00:20:15:18
Marisa
Okay. That makes sense. So if we've established that some organizations or maybe many that don't necessarily think that they need one, you know, would benefit from hiring a head of remote. How does somebody go about hiring that position anyway? It's not like we've had this position around for a long time. How?

00:20:15:18 - 00:20:18:06
Wayne
I am not an expert on recruiting.

00:20:19:02 - 00:20:19:13
Marisa
Okay.

00:20:19:18 - 00:20:20:15
Wayne
I really.

00:20:20:19 - 00:20:21:02
Marisa
Yeah.

00:20:21:09 - 00:20:38:18
Wayne
But it seems to me that it's going to be, you know, you want to cast a wide net. You may or may not want to offer that position internally first. But it's described the job is part project management. It's part change management.

00:20:38:23 - 00:20:39:05
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:20:40:08 - 00:20:55:09
Wayne
You know, you're going to be dealing with this area of the food chain. We may or may not want you in the office. Ironically fair because of access to the people that you're going to be working with.

00:20:56:00 - 00:20:59:16
Marisa
Well, I'm sure there'll probably be a technology piece along with that to bring you.

00:20:59:16 - 00:21:00:00
Wayne
Know.

00:21:00:05 - 00:21:02:01
Marisa
Bring some knowledge of some technology.

00:21:02:12 - 00:21:19:23
Wayne
Yes. You lay out the job description and you don't get must have a master's degree course. It's about hiring for the competencies and the skills is not for the degree because there is no degree in chief. Remote Officer.

00:21:20:13 - 00:21:20:22
Marisa
Yes.

00:21:21:10 - 00:21:37:04
Wayne
We are actually working with an MBA program at Mount Mercy University who is now at it now. So, you know, 2022 adding a remote piece in there. Mm hmm. In their MBA.

00:21:37:23 - 00:21:38:21
Marisa
That's fantastic.

00:21:38:23 - 00:21:46:21
Wayne
But nobody has this figured out yet. So quit worrying about degrees and focus on skills and vision.

00:21:47:22 - 00:21:50:17
Marisa
That totally makes sense.

00:21:50:21 - 00:22:27:00
Wayne
And so there you go. That is all the discussion. I love Marisa episodes. Marisa episodes are where she comes to me and goes, So I've got these questions and I go, Right, and there we go. But that being said, a couple of things. First of all, the book Long Distance Leader and Long Distance Teammate and relative to the CHR discussion, the upcoming Long-Distance Team is certainly something that you should look into if you haven't read those books yet.

00:22:27:22 - 00:22:54:21
Wayne
Also, if you are looking to develop the leadership skills necessary to lead long distance teams and projects, we would like to recommend shamelessly our Remote Leadership Certificate Series. And if you come to KevinEikenberry.com or remoteleadershipinstitute.com or even longdistanceworklife.com. We will have a link to that class. It's a six session, 2 hours a session.

00:22:54:21 - 00:23:33:11
Wayne
Virtual Training Program Introduction to Long Distance Leadership. We would love for you to join us on that. And we have public programs coming up soon. Marisa, thank you so much. You know, you know the drill I love Marisa manages our our page longdistanceworklife.com. Please like and subscribe. Leave comments reviews your questions. By the way, there's a spot on our website where you can submit your questions, which then become Marisa's questions.

00:23:35:00 - 00:23:39:12
Wayne
It's been a blast. Anything you want to say before we hit the road?

00:23:39:12 - 00:23:50:11
Marisa
The only thing I would also add is that our LinkedIn and email addresses are also in the show notes and feel free if you want to. You can also send us questions that way and we'll tackle them in a future episode.

00:23:51:06 - 00:24:13:09
Wayne
So that's it. Keep the weasels at bay. Have a wonderful day. We will see you or you will see us on the next episode.

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