Remote Work Rants: Holding Attention & Harnessing Breakout Rooms on Long-Distance Worklife Podcast with Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry
Ask Wayne Anything, Technology, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Holding Attention and Harnessing Breakout Rooms

Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel delve into the realm of remote work pet peeves, with a particular focus on virtual meetings. As they banter in their signature casual-yet-business-oriented style, Marisa and Wayne discuss the ups and downs of attention spans, attention-grabbing tactics, and the intricate dynamics of breakout sessions. Sharing insights from their own experiences, they highlight the importance of intentional meeting behavior and how to make breakout rooms truly effective. Tune in to gain valuable tips on managing meeting frustrations and optimizing remote team interactions.

Key Takeaways

1. Attention spans are shorter in virtual meetings, so facilitators should change things up every 6 minutes to keep participants engaged.
2. Meeting behavior is a performance management issue and should be addressed by managers.
3. Breakout rooms can be effective for generating better discussion and involving all participants, but they should have a specific outcome and be relevant to the topic at hand.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:09:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife.

00:00:09:13 - 00:00:19:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I’m Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:19:04 - 00:00:21:03
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marisa. How are you?

00:00:21:04 - 00:00:24:21
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. We're talking pet peeves today. Are you excited?

00:00:24:23 - 00:00:31:02
Wayne Turmel
You know, I love when people get a chance to vent. That makes me so happy.

00:00:31:04 - 00:00:51:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, I'm happy that we get to do this because. Oh, my gosh, I put out a question on my personal social media. So Twitter, LinkedIn, and my Facebook and said, What do you hate about virtual meetings? And nine of you responded, which does not sound like a lot, but in podcast world, that's a pretty big number. Which also tells you connect with me to get on the show.

00:00:52:01 - 00:00:54:03
Wayne Turmel
But you are.

00:00:54:05 - 00:00:54:10
Wayne Turmel
You.

00:00:54:14 - 00:01:03:17
Wayne Turmel
Know, when we started this show a year ago, she was like, I guess you could kind of contact me if you want. Now she's now she's like the queen of social media.

00:01:03:20 - 00:01:04:06
Marisa Eikenberry
I try.

00:01:05:16 - 00:01:28:06
Marisa Eikenberry
But anyway, so we asked you guys, what do you hate about virtual meetings? So many of you responded, Thank you. We're not going to be able to get through all of them in the show. So we're going to have multiple episodes just like we do with our other pet peeves. So keep sending those in. But I'm going to start with Sam Roberts from Twitter, who says Attention spans are shorter and we're fighting against countless distractions.

00:01:28:12 - 00:01:50:11
Marisa Eikenberry
This means facilitators need to do more prep and think of how to keep the agenda moving, to keep things interesting. I pressed a little harder just to say like, okay, so you're saying to keep things interesting, like our facilities are supposed to do that. She said that for her, she changes up what she's doing every 6 minutes. So thoughts on that as a facilitator for longer than I?

00:01:50:16 - 00:02:20:20
Wayne Turmel
Well, I think the instinct is right, which is that people do have short attention spans. Now, some of this is it's amazing. Attention span is within the normal realms, like if you keep it inside an hour or if you. Yeah, the attention span is discretionary. People are really good at paying attention to things that matter to them. Right.

00:02:21:00 - 00:02:28:12
Wayne Turmel
We are really good at tuning out things that our brain goes, don't care, don't want to know. Oh, look, Squirrel.

00:02:28:14 - 00:02:29:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:02:29:16 - 00:02:40:22
Wayne Turmel
Right. So some of this starts before the meeting. I wrote a book, and I know it's a little bit outdated, so this is not a plug for the book, but the title of the book was Meet Like, you mean it?

00:02:41:00 - 00:02:42:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:02:42:14 - 00:03:09:10
Wayne Turmel
Still pretty good advice. Right. Right. Why are we meeting? Is this something that needs to happen? Does the people that do the people that we've invited need to be there? And will they add value to the time to gather? Is this the best alternative as opposed to discussion threads or other asynchronous kind of things? But let's assume for a moment that you have actually made a conscious decision that this meeting matters.

00:03:09:14 - 00:03:13:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. And I assume you have an agenda for said meeting.

00:03:13:19 - 00:03:27:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, that's the next part is do people know why they're there? Do they know what's expected of them? Do they know what the desired outcomes are? You know, have you prepared them to hit the ground running?

00:03:27:23 - 00:03:29:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:03:29:05 - 00:03:44:15
Wayne Turmel
And all of that is before you even start your presentation. Now, her point, about every 6 minutes we try to change this is absolutely right. I have said before and gotten in trouble for saying that human beings are like raccoons.

00:03:44:17 - 00:03:45:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:03:45:04 - 00:03:47:22
Wayne Turmel
We're attracted by color, light and motion.

00:03:48:00 - 00:03:50:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:03:50:11 - 00:04:07:03
Wayne Turmel
Are there things going on? And there's a fourth thing on there, which is sound. One of the cardinal sins of online meetings is people hear the same voice for a very long time.

00:04:07:05 - 00:04:08:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:08:20 - 00:04:23:09
Wayne Turmel
And after a while, our brains can only physically maintain focus on a single voice for a short period of time. After that, you turn into Charlie Brown's teacher. More, more, more, more.

00:04:23:09 - 00:04:23:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:24:00 - 00:04:25:20
Wayne Turmel
And it's very, very difficult.

00:04:25:20 - 00:04:27:21
Marisa Eikenberry
So we all had one of those teachers.

00:04:27:23 - 00:05:02:06
Wayne Turmel
The six minute rule is is fine. It's a perfectly valid rule. I try to do that by not making people hold their questions till the end. Mm hmm. Right. Doing check ins and not just any questions. Okay, good. But legitimate at check ins every little bit. You know, if you are presenting a slide deck, for example, I actually decide during my as I'm building my presentation where I want to stop and take questions.

00:05:02:08 - 00:05:12:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. You actually coached me on this on something I'm going to do this weekend. And and that was the idea that in between we're asking them questions about stuff that's relating to what I'm talking about.

00:05:12:20 - 00:05:37:14
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And so and I know I've mentioned this before. There's this concept called the horror limit, which is that we can only take in seven pieces of information because information comes into our short term memory. We process it. We decide what we need to keep and what we don't and what's worth remembering. And we move that to the oh, yeah, got to remember that pile and that makes room for more stuff.

00:05:37:16 - 00:05:38:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:05:38:12 - 00:05:48:14
Wayne Turmel
If, as is often the case, because we're trying to cram a bunch of stuff into a short period of time, you just turn on the firehose.

00:05:48:16 - 00:05:49:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:05:49:16 - 00:05:58:18
Wayne Turmel
And just one way. Push information to people. You are going to hit that horror limit wall very early.

00:05:58:19 - 00:06:01:14
Marisa Eikenberry
And then wonder why they forgot X, Y, Z.

00:06:01:16 - 00:06:27:12
Wayne Turmel
And then wonder what I told them. Now, there are a couple of things I'm going to say to this specifically about attention span, because I know we've got a bunch of other cool stuff that we want to address. Number one is don't be afraid of handouts, reference material, stuff that people can look at later.

00:06:27:14 - 00:06:29:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:06:29:07 - 00:07:07:07
Wayne Turmel
You don't have to give them everything and walk them all through it at that point. Right. If you can give them the information beforehand, that will be immensely helpful. But that requires something else. And this is something that managers don't want to talk about, but it's really important. Okay. And that is that meeting behavior is a piece of their job performance.

00:07:07:09 - 00:07:24:10
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And it needs to be coached like a performance management issue. And that covers both ends of the spectrum. If people are dominating the meetings and not being respectful and not giving people a chance to talk. That needs to be addressed.

00:07:24:12 - 00:07:25:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00:07:25:16 - 00:08:04:10
Wayne Turmel
If people are constantly logging on and and I'm talking about a convergence of problems, none of these are in and of themselves deal breakers. But if they come on to the meeting and they don't get there, you know, they're not on camera and they don't participate and they're constantly on mute the whole time. And, you know, they basically whine and complain and don't contribute in the chat or anything else.

00:08:04:12 - 00:08:13:20
Wayne Turmel
At some point in your one on ones as a manager, you should go, you know, you're awful quiet on the meetings. What's going on?

00:08:13:22 - 00:08:17:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. It makes you look like you're not a team player.

00:08:17:09 - 00:08:38:18
Wayne Turmel
And the problem is that that becomes a perception problem. Mm hmm. Right. And when you address that, why aren't you speaking up in meetings? You actually learn stuff. Right, Right. Like, I probably shouldn't be on that meeting anyway. Or I don't want to say anything, because you know how Bob is.

00:08:38:20 - 00:08:39:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:08:39:12 - 00:08:54:05
Wayne Turmel
Right. Which tells you that there's a team dynamic issue that needs to be addressed. Yeah. You know, it's like with the camera. Why don't you want to be on camera? Well, I just hate it now. Sucks to be you.

00:08:54:07 - 00:08:57:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Or is it a bandwidth issue? In which case you can't really happen.

00:08:57:15 - 00:08:58:11
Wayne Turmel
With the issue.

00:08:58:13 - 00:08:59:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Or anyone else.

00:08:59:12 - 00:09:10:06
Wayne Turmel
My kids are running around. It's it. I just got back from the gym, and if it's. I just got back from the gym, Maybe a little more notice. Mm hmm. Before you call me.

00:09:10:08 - 00:09:11:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:09:11:10 - 00:09:24:02
Wayne Turmel
Right. None of these things individually are dealbreakers, but when you put them all together, it starts to affect people's ability to pay attention in the meeting.

00:09:24:04 - 00:09:24:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:09:24:20 - 00:09:47:05
Wayne Turmel
So if you meet, like you mean it. Yeah, right. And you plan it, and you do the work up front and you hold people accountable or. I'm sorry, I use bad language when you help people be accountable. I don't want Kevin on my case.

00:09:47:07 - 00:09:49:18
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm going to send just that clip to him directly.

00:09:49:22 - 00:10:16:04
Wayne Turmel
What, you. Yeah, that would be great. Thank you. When you help people be accountable, if will make a difference. The thing is that meeting behavior over time has kind of devolved because we've allowed it to be devolved. We haven't addressed it. Mm hmm. Nobody says anything. I'm so busy trying to get through the meeting that, you know, I'm just as glamorous.

00:10:16:05 - 00:10:18:11
Wayne Turmel
Kept your mouth shut because I got to get stuff done.

00:10:18:13 - 00:10:42:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. You only have so much time to do it. Well, I'm going to go ahead and move on to the next question. But thank you, Sam, for sending that in. And so chat tsunami on Twitter said the stereotypical jokes that we said pre-COVID. And, you know, we get it. Our mike our mike is muted and I'm wearing trousers, let it go.

00:10:42:11 - 00:10:48:09
Marisa Eikenberry
And they also mention that breakout sessions are the bane of their existence. But I don't think we've talked about breakout sessions before.

00:10:48:11 - 00:10:51:15
Wayne Turmel
We haven't. I mean, to the first part.

00:10:51:18 - 00:10:52:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:10:53:01 - 00:10:55:18
Wayne Turmel
Right.

00:10:55:20 - 00:10:56:12
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean.

00:10:56:14 - 00:11:12:09
Wayne Turmel
People at the office still tend to resent those who don't go into the office every day and will take their little digs right? Yes, you are correct. We should have gotten past that point by now. Yeah.

00:11:12:09 - 00:11:17:10
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, you know, one third of my working life has been this pandemic remote work. Whatever.

00:11:17:12 - 00:11:26:17
Wayne Turmel
Say that again, louder for the people in the back, because we were talking about this before we started recording. And it's such an important point.

00:11:26:19 - 00:11:47:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. So full disclosure, I'm 31. I started working at this organization literally the Monday after I graduated college. So I worked here for nine years and one third of my working life has been this pandemic remote work stuff, which is kind of wild when you really think about it.

00:11:47:03 - 00:12:10:19
Wayne Turmel
It's incredibly wild and it means that what was normal in the before times or what was novel or weird no longer is right. We need to just deal with that and get on with it. So I think that's a valid point. What the topic of breakout rooms is really interesting.

00:12:10:21 - 00:12:35:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I mean, I've only been in some. I know for me it depends on the meeting that I'm in. So sometimes I don't mind the breakout session because I'm excited about whatever we're talking about and we're going to talk about this project or I like who I'm in the breakout session with, but I've also been in some where, you know, we're the volunteer organizations that I'm in that are talking about leadership stuff.

00:12:35:21 - 00:12:51:16
Marisa Eikenberry
For me, I'm like, I don't even really need to be here because I already know this, but that's beside point. So I get pulled into a breakout room for them and I'm like, Cool, we're going to answer these really fluffy questions that don't really matter, and then we're going to come in and talk about it and yay, rah rah.

00:12:51:18 - 00:12:55:09
Marisa Eikenberry
So I think sometimes it depends on how the breakout session is done.

00:12:55:11 - 00:13:08:11
Wayne Turmel
Okay. Like everything else, if you're going to do something, understand why you're doing it right. You said something which is fluffy whatevers.

00:13:08:12 - 00:13:09:16
Marisa Eikenberry
And we've all been in those.

00:13:09:17 - 00:13:18:12
Wayne Turmel
We have established on this show that Wayne is not a fan of Fluffy ice breakers. They irritate me in general.

00:13:18:14 - 00:13:20:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. We have a video.

00:13:20:00 - 00:13:20:13
Wayne Turmel
Hook it up.

00:13:20:15 - 00:13:21:16
Marisa Eikenberry
An icebreaker.

00:13:21:17 - 00:13:48:01
Wayne Turmel
But I'd rather get to the business at hand. So if you are going to do remote or breakout rooms, why are you doing them in training? There is a very reasonable reason, which is sometimes you want different groups to discuss different things. Sometimes it's because you generally get better input in groups of four or five than you would in a room full of 20.

00:13:48:03 - 00:14:12:15
Wayne Turmel
Mm hmm. Everybody gets to speak. You're introverts aren't as intimidated or, you know, the groups tend to generate better discussion and then they come out and they debrief. And it it's it's generally better input. And it's also a great way to jumpstart a meeting that otherwise people join in, they go on mute and there's nothing happening at the beginning.

00:14:12:16 - 00:14:20:13
Wayne Turmel
Mm hmm. If you are doing them just to give them something to do, they are not going to be looked on fondly.

00:14:20:15 - 00:14:21:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:14:21:08 - 00:15:00:02
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, they should be relevant to the topic at hand. They should not put people in an embarrassing situation. I think breakout rooms can be very helpful and they're especially helpful if you have the same people, the same large group of people, and they've done it a few times the first time you use a breakout room. It's weird and awkward and people aren't really sure how it works and what they're supposed to do once they've done it a couple of times and it becomes standard operating procedure.

00:15:00:04 - 00:15:26:18
Wayne Turmel
They can be very helpful, but you need to have a specific outcome that there is a reason we'd broken you into small groups. This is what we want. We tend to be very prescriptive. We're in a class and we send people in to breakout rooms. We will, as part of the instructions, say things like The person whose next birthday it is is going to report out.

00:15:26:20 - 00:15:31:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Yeah. And then you don't have to do this. Well, do you want to do it? Well, what about you?

00:15:31:04 - 00:16:01:03
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. It's. Here's your assignment. Get to work. Oh, look, you're finished. Your work. Let's report out. Your work is important. We're seeking your input. We respected your input. We've acknowledged your input, and it's added value to the meeting. If you're doing it just to have something light and fluffy to do. And I suspect the person who sent that in a is male.

00:16:01:05 - 00:16:04:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, I know this person. So. Yes.

00:16:05:00 - 00:16:28:20
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Okay. So, you know, probably not as grumpy and old as me, but certainly grumpy and male and probably focused on Let me do my work. Let's get to work. Let's do what we need to do. And so the the value of the breakout rooms isn't as apparent.

00:16:28:22 - 00:16:29:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:16:30:00 - 00:16:38:03
Wayne Turmel
Because it's being seen as soft and fluffy and getting in the way of the desired outcome of the meeting.

00:16:38:05 - 00:16:43:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. I mean, just like we talk about all the time, clear communication is key there.

00:16:43:18 - 00:16:49:23
Wayne Turmel
But it's like everything else. If you're going to do something in a meeting, what is the reason for it?

00:16:50:01 - 00:16:51:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, don't waste people's time.

00:16:51:11 - 00:17:09:03
Wayne Turmel
If everybody knows everybody, if this team has been together forever, how much of an icebreaker do you really need right. And do we need to go through the mechanics of breaking out into a room and going back? Well, most of us went to the movies this weekend. That doesn't feel.

00:17:09:05 - 00:17:19:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah, but if it's like, hey, we have this one problem that we need to solve and we're going to pull you into breakout sessions so you guys can talk about, you know, how we might be able to approach this a little different.

00:17:19:10 - 00:17:53:15
Wayne Turmel
Well, or, you know, a really common one is you signed up for this course. You signed up for this meeting. What is your top priority? What is the thing that worries you the most about this? What are you most concerned about? That is a very legitimate use. And as the larger the group gets, the more you need to do that, because if you get above the team level, right, if you get above six, seven, eight people, just the group dynamics are going to dictate that some people are going to talk and some people are going to hide.

00:17:53:17 - 00:17:55:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:17:55:12 - 00:18:07:22
Wayne Turmel
Breakout rooms if used properly and properly managed, can draw information and involve those people who might otherwise hide or not be heard.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:28:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's all we have time for today. But we have so many more. Like I said, we had nine people respond and I'm so excited to get to more of these and future episodes. If you have one, please make sure to send it in. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to the long distance worklife for show notes, transcripts and other resources.

00:18:28:16 - 00:18:45:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit long distance worklife dot com. If you haven't yet subscribe so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn or any of our social media profiles. Those are all in our show notes.

00:18:45:17 - 00:18:46:07
Marisa Eikenberry
And let us know.

00:18:46:07 - 00:18:54:00
Wayne Turmel
You should know by now that Marissa is apparently the queen of social media and she does listen when people tell her stuff.

00:18:54:05 - 00:19:16:01
Marisa Eikenberry
So yeah, it's really true. If you want to talk to somebody about the podcast, talk to me. That is that is not a secret. But anyway, if you have pet peeves, if you have topics that you want us to tackle, if you know thoughts, general, whatever, like email us, talk to us, send me a message. I get so excited when I hear from listeners, so please do that.

00:19:16:03 - 00:19:27:22
Marisa Eikenberry
And if you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Barry's new book, The Long Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team BBC.com. Thanks for joining us. As we like to say, don't let the weasels get too down.


Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction
00:00:19 Discussion about virtual meeting pet peeves
00:01:28 Attention spans are shorter and distractions are a challenge
00:03:09 Importance of meeting preparation and clear objectives
00:04:07 The need to change things up every 6 minutes
00:05:49 The impact of long monologues on attention span
00:06:29 The value of providing handouts and reference materials
00:07:07 Meeting behavior as a performance management issue
00:08:04 Addressing issues of dominant or unengaged meeting participants
00:08:17 The perception problem of not actively participating in meetings
00:08:38 Team dynamic issue needs to be addressed.
00:08:54 Camera and bandwidth issues affect meeting participation.
00:09:10 Lack of notice and distractions affect meeting engagement.
00:09:24 Meeting behavior has devolved due to lack of accountability.
00:10:42 Stereotypical jokes and breakout sessions as meeting challenges.
00:11:26 Remote work during the pandemic is a significant portion of work life.
00:12:10 Breakout sessions can be effective if done purposefully.
00:13:08 Fluffy ice breakers are not favored by Wayne.
00:14:20 Breakout rooms should have a specific outcome and purpose.
00:16:43 Clear communication and not wasting time are essential in meetings.
00:16:50 Reason for doing something in a meeting
00:17:09 Icebreaker activities in meetings
00:17:19 Using breakout sessions to solve problems
00:17:53 Importance of involving all participants in larger group meetings
00:18:08 Proper use and management of breakout rooms
00:18:28 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

 Order
Read More
Solving the Challenges of Hybrid Teams with AI Technology with Projjal (PJ) Ghatak on Long-Distance Worklife with Wayne Turmel
Guests, Hybrid Work, Leadership, Technology

Solving the Challenges of Hybrid Teams with AI Technology with Projjal (PJ) Ghatak

Wayne Turmel interviews Projjal (PJ) Ghatak, CEO and co-founder of OnLoop, a habit-forming AI-powered platform for high-functioning teams. They discuss the challenges faced by hybrid teams and the need for increased clarity and visibility in remote work. OnLoop helps managers and team members stay connected and informed through regular check-ins and feedback. The platform aims to address biases and create a level playing field for all employees. Ghatak emphasizes the importance of rethinking traditional work practices and embracing the transition to a hybrid workplace.

Key Takeaways

1. OnLoop helps managers of hybrid teams navigate the reduced visibility and clarity that comes with remote and hybrid work.
2. The platform uses habit-forming technology to make it easier for managers to understand what is happening with each team member.
3. OnLoop aims to close the perception gap and eliminate biases by bringing better visibility into the actual work being done.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:04 - 00:00:32:16
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Long Distance Work Life, the podcast, where we help you thrive, survive, live. Figure out how to find your way in this crazy, evolving world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. I'm a master trainer and coach here at the Kevin Eikenberry Group, coauthor of the Long Distance Work Life Books.

00:00:32:18 - 00:01:05:01
Wayne Turmel
And we'll talk more about those in a bit. This is one of these episodes where Marissa is not with me. That doesn't mean you should leave, because we have another really interesting interview with a really, really smart person. And so to that point, I am going to bring in Brazil P.J. Gottschalk, who is with On Loop. And I'm going to let him introduce himself and what on loop does, and then we'll get into it.

00:01:05:02 - 00:01:38:04
Projjal Ghatak
Hey, man, thank you for having me. So in 2020, I started a company called on Loop. And what on loop really is, is a habit forming gen AI powered platform for goals and feedback in high functioning teams. And I know that that's a bunch of potentially buzzwords. And we can we can go deeper into it. But really, in essence, we were born as a company to help managers of hybrid teams really navigate sort of the reduced visibility that now have on their teams because people are remote or hybrid.

00:01:38:06 - 00:01:54:23
Projjal Ghatak
And so we were born in the pandemic. That was partly luck and that was partly the timing, given everything happening in the world. And our goal is to use our collaborative team developing framework to help hybrid managers do okay.

00:01:54:23 - 00:02:23:17
Wayne Turmel
So as you said, the buzzword alert went off big time during that. And that doesn't mean there aren't some things there that we need to talk about. So the first thing I guess is hybrid teams have certain challenges and whenever I talk to technology people, I'm actually less interested in the nuts and bolts of the technology because I'm not smart enough to understand what any of that is.

00:02:23:19 - 00:02:32:12
Wayne Turmel
What I do care about is what's the problem you're solving for. So when hybrid teams in particular, what were you trying to cure?

00:02:32:14 - 00:02:58:10
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah, so, so the disease really is one of reduced clarity, right? So, so before managers had their team members at their beck and call five days a week in the office. And so it was much easier to infer how someone was doing what they were working on, how it was progressing and giving quick feedback, giving quick coaching or tips and advice.

00:02:58:12 - 00:03:25:15
Projjal Ghatak
That medium has largely now been constrained into a much shorter time frame. And so managers around the world are incredibly anxious as to whether their teams are focusing on the right things and moving in the right direction. At the same time, team members are also anxious as to where they stand because they now have a much more reduce feedback loop with their managers.

00:03:25:17 - 00:03:38:01
Projjal Ghatak
And our job as a company is to really fill in that visibility and clarity gap that has been inserted into the workplace because of a shift to a hybrid feature.

00:03:38:01 - 00:03:55:17
Wayne Turmel
I mean, the thing about technology is it's garbage in, garbage out, right? And so when we're talking about clarity and expectations, how does the technology help a manager who maybe isn't doing a great job at this?

00:03:55:19 - 00:04:20:00
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah. So we all believe that every manager in the world has good intent. Nobody walks into the workplace and says, I'm going to be a bad manager today. But it is also overwhelming for a manager. The average manager has 4 to 6 direct reports. They have their own responsibility and their own pressures coming from their managers and it's a hard job to juggle.

00:04:20:02 - 00:04:20:19
Projjal Ghatak
And so.

00:04:21:01 - 00:04:21:09
Wayne Turmel
What.

00:04:21:09 - 00:04:44:23
Projjal Ghatak
We do with our platform is make it much easier for the manager to get a sense of what is happening with each of the team members, and that might be related to the person's wellbeing. It might be related to the fact that they may not be clear what they're working on. It might be they're not receiving enough feedback so that they can take the right action at the right time for the right team member.

00:04:45:01 - 00:05:23:12
Projjal Ghatak
And and where we take a lot of inspiration from is fitness apps. And so we've seen products like the Woo Band and the Aura Ring take concepts like diet and exercise and sleep and give each individual a readiness score and also suggested next actions of what they can do around their readiness. And we sort of draw that parallel to clarity and we help managers navigate where a team member might be blocked or where they might need help so that they can invest the time in the place that accelerates the team in the best way possible.

00:05:23:14 - 00:05:50:17
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I don't want to get too hung up on the technology, but this is fascinating for me. So how does walk me through? I'm stuck. I'm working on something and I'm stuck. How does the I magical Genie robot thing? Yeah. Been to my manager. And what does he hear or see that tells him that I need help?

00:05:50:19 - 00:06:12:04
Projjal Ghatak
Natalie So, you know, one of the things, as you said, garbage in, garbage out. So all of the things we do in our product is make it much more habit forming. So when people use the on loop app, we see much more regular updates that team members are making towards as to what is the state of their wellbeing or how a day progressing against their goals.

00:06:12:04 - 00:06:50:08
Projjal Ghatak
And, and when people are reflecting and checking in on a much more bite sized continual visit, it's much easier to spot when something's off track or things that to be brought on track. And so, you know, there is no magician reading through your emails or Slack messages making up stuff. It's really making it really easy for managers and team members to keep each other updated of what's happening and discovering things that might be going off track much sooner than a weekly one on one conversation, or even worse, off a team meeting that happens every two weeks.

00:06:50:10 - 00:07:18:23
Wayne Turmel
How do you what are the conversations like with clients as you're talking about integrate this? Because I see the benefit everything you're talking about. And there is a lot of push back right now from employees about, oh, this is glorified keystroke monitoring. Yeah, you know, they're going to come and take me away if I'm not putting in so many minutes per hour at the keyboard.

00:07:19:01 - 00:07:24:19
Wayne Turmel
How do you have those conversations and what are those look like?

00:07:25:01 - 00:07:56:23
Projjal Ghatak
And that's a really good question. And so all of our messaging, as well as onboarding new customers, is very much targeted to the icons, the individual contributors and the managers, because unfortunately, practices like performance management has created a ton of baggage around form filling and check boxing and compliance exercises that don't make the employee feel that the stuff they're doing is actually for their benefit.

00:07:57:01 - 00:08:23:19
Projjal Ghatak
And so part of our package when we onboard a new customer is obviously the app, but also a fairly intense 12 week success program where we build the habits that drive that clarity and give team members that benefit. And and there's no other product in the world bar none that's focused on the end user and not on a functional organization like h.r.

00:08:23:19 - 00:08:50:17
Projjal Ghatak
So for us, h.r. Is a stakeholder, but our customer is really the manager and good teams, and that's what's very important for the managers and the teams to see the benefit for them to then adopt a product and only the product is adopted to drive the impact that it aspires to have. And therefore, for us, we basically serve the hybrid manager and the organization above all else.

00:08:50:19 - 00:09:00:05
Wayne Turmel
What are some of the habits and best practices that managers need to develop that you're seeing need that kind of support?

00:09:00:07 - 00:09:21:06
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah. So one of the great sort of habits, one of my customer success team members came up with was called to want to check in every week, which is making two well-being checks, making one celebrate capsule about something that went well and then requesting one piece of feedback on a goal that they're working towards and and it's an easy thing to do.

00:09:21:07 - 00:09:54:19
Projjal Ghatak
You can do it in a matter of seconds, if not a minute. And what that does is build up a rhythm of getting a pulse of what's going on and not requiring a manager to pester and check in being like, what's happening on this project and what's happening on that project? And so the very simple habits that we can create and also tack on to other things that are happening often on loop will get used as part of a team meeting to do celebrate peers or to solicit feedback or to brainstorm around a project someone stuck on.

00:09:54:21 - 00:10:36:19
Projjal Ghatak
And so habit formation is a lot about taking what's already happening and that might be one on one or team huddles and conversations and inserting technology or new habits into that so that they stack the right way. But but these take a lot of time and effort to design the product. And in fact, right now we're doing a full design overhaul of the product based on user feedback to really make these habits second nature so that people don't see it as a chore to be done, which is how people have typically viewed goals and feedback works, is something that's making their life easier and allowing them to cross their goals much faster.

00:10:36:21 - 00:10:57:12
Wayne Turmel
And of course, a big part of your marketing, your message to the world is around hybrid teams. And I know that there are some specific What are the challenges to hybrid teams that you're seeing in your clients that managers need to be super vigilant about?

00:10:57:14 - 00:11:16:20
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah, So, you know hybrids obviously a new buzzword that the pandemic's created. So I often also use the word distributed, right? So I used to work for a company called Uber for many years and we had thousands of people around the world. And so when I was living in Singapore in a global role at Uber, I was working with team members around the world.

00:11:16:22 - 00:11:43:13
Projjal Ghatak
And so when the pandemic happened, it was that we are to spend many hours on a on a Zoom call. But but really instead of the technology that we had built to get work done was very much centered around facilitating an in office workplace and and you know, leaders tend to be older and and older people are creatures of habit and they.

00:11:43:13 - 00:11:47:00
Wayne Turmel
Don't I have no idea what you're talking.

00:11:47:02 - 00:11:56:19
Projjal Ghatak
And they don't like changing things all that often. Although you do move continent to continent every every few years that might be that might be an exception.

00:11:57:00 - 00:11:59:16
Wayne Turmel
And so, you know, people are used.

00:11:59:16 - 00:12:24:10
Projjal Ghatak
To seeing work getting done. And just because they can't see work getting done, they're anxious that work is not getting done. And Microsoft calls that the productivity paranoia, that 12% of leaders believe that their teams are productive, which is 87% of employees are saying they are perfectly productive in this new world. And so that creates a big perception gap.

00:12:24:12 - 00:12:53:17
Projjal Ghatak
And and sort of as we think about pooling our approaches, we need to close that perception gap, because I think reality is showing us that hybrids the way we move is, in fact, things like API, things like VR and AR are only going to make teams more dispersed and be able to effectively collaborate across borders. So in the next three, five, ten years, we'll see more teams distributed around the world.

00:12:53:17 - 00:13:09:17
Projjal Ghatak
And so this train has left the station, so there's no point putting the genie back in the bottle. We just need to rethink the experience so that we are thinking of pools and processes to cater to this new world versus trying to force an old world that is never coming back.

00:13:09:18 - 00:13:41:07
Wayne Turmel
And that brings us to something that I know you at on Loop are very cognizant of, which is the idea of proximity bias. Right. And that to me is what I'm hearing over and over and over again as the biggest hurdle. It shouldn't be, it seems to me, but it is the biggest hurdle that managers of distributed teams and if they're fully distributed, it's much less of an issue than if they've got a core group of people in the office.

00:13:41:09 - 00:13:52:04
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, tell me a little bit about that problem that you're solving for and then how will technology and tools help deal with that now?

00:13:52:04 - 00:14:07:23
Projjal Ghatak
I mean, proximity bias is a good way of framing it. I, I call it eloquence bias that that people who sound better are perceived to be better or the people who are talking more about their work are doing more work. And there's and there's very good proven research.

00:14:07:23 - 00:14:10:14
Wayne Turmel
That some of us have made a career out of that that.

00:14:10:16 - 00:14:33:22
Projjal Ghatak
I like. I agree. Right. And I'm and I want to fix that because I've benefited from it. And I think that's entirely fair. And so people talk a lot about closing the gender pay gap or die at work. But the reality is that no amount of training is going to change those issues. What's going to change is how are we assessing?

00:14:33:22 - 00:14:54:14
Projjal Ghatak
We're getting done and so often that we see and we're probably going to take out a couple of case studies about this, about certain individuals using the on loop team, on loop on the app, on how much more seen they feel like work, because now their work is now equally seen where it says who has the most confidence to speak up in a room.

00:14:54:16 - 00:15:15:17
Projjal Ghatak
And we feel very passionately about just bringing fairness and visibility across the board to everyone's work. Equally worse is who has drinks with the manager or who's speaking up more in meetings. And the people who struggle to speak up in in-person settings struggle even more in hybrid settings. And it's much harder to speak up in a Zoom call or speak up in a room.

00:15:15:22 - 00:15:26:14
Projjal Ghatak
And so that bias is only getting worse. And we believe the only way we can fix that or close that gap is by bringing better visibility into the actual work that each person's doing.

00:15:26:18 - 00:15:53:04
Wayne Turmel
And in our work, Kevin and I, in a number of our books have talked about what we call ethical visibility, which is the responsibility of the employee to be visible to their manager and their colleagues for exactly that reason. I'm guessing that tech that the technology is not just one way, it's not just manager to employee, but the employee can be more proactive about it.

00:15:53:06 - 00:16:20:04
Projjal Ghatak
So so one thing I've learned is and you know, I had imagined Santas in the past as well, if someone can advocate for themselves, why should I go out of my way? And what I've learned is that is privilege working at its very best, because often people don't understand the confidence gap that a lot of people who are minorities or come from socially disadvantaged families or women often struggle with and having the confidence of speaking up.

00:16:20:04 - 00:16:51:13
Projjal Ghatak
And so we absolutely need to build tools and approaches that allows everybody to be visible irrespective of how much confidence they have to speak up in a room. And as I've got older and I've been reminded of my own privileges, I've got a lot more cognizant to the fact that just because someone's not standing up or advocating for themselves, it may not be in their control and might go back to deep rooted situations on where they come from.

00:16:51:16 - 00:17:16:01
Wayne Turmel
Well, the fact that there is an inherent power gap in every employer employee relationship is there. I am fascinated by what you just said. I think that's huge. And as usual, as an old cis white male, I feel I feel both seen and attacked, which is probably as it should be. So thank you very much for raising that.

00:17:16:02 - 00:17:22:16
Wayne Turmel
Anything. PJ Before we close out the show and send people on their way.

00:17:22:18 - 00:17:44:09
Projjal Ghatak
No, thank you for all the work that you are doing. I think more and more people need to be focused on this transition to a hybrid workplace, and I think we will have to rethink a lot of things that we've taken for granted pre-pandemic. And it is it is both exciting and daunting to hopefully do our small bit in that transition.

00:17:44:12 - 00:18:08:12
Wayne Turmel
Excellent. Thank you so much. Profile PJ Gottschalk, thank you so much for being with us. I am going to remove you from the room for just a moment while I close up. Thank you for listening. There was a lot of really good stuff in this interview. I liked the piece at the end actually about how technology can help a level playing field, so I think that's so important.

00:18:08:14 - 00:18:47:16
Wayne Turmel
But on the other hand, if you are a regular listener, please like and subscribe to the show. If you enjoyed this conversation, if you want links to project two on loop to any or just to recap some of what we talked about, you can find those show notes at long distance work life dot com. If you are interested in building a hybrid team, perhaps using some of these tools, but want to know what goes into that, check out Kevin Eikenberry and his new book, The Long Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone six.

00:18:47:18 - 00:19:13:09
Wayne Turmel
Marisa will be back next week. We are having a blast hearing from you with your pet peeves, your questions. People are kind of digging the chance to snark and vent a little bit. So we love hearing from you. Please drop us a line. Wayne at Kevin Eikenberry dot com Marissa at Kevin Eikenberry ecom or connect with us on LinkedIn.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:25:23
Wayne Turmel
That's it thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Thank you to P.J. for stopping in. We will see you on the next episode of the long distance Work Life. Don't let the weasels get you down.


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to the podcast and Projjal Ghatak
01:05 The problem of reduced clarity in hybrid teams
03:55 How technology helps managers with clarity and expectations
05:50 Addressing concerns about employee monitoring
09:00 Developing habits and best practices for managers
10:57 Challenges of hybrid teams and the need for visibility
13:41 Solving the problem of proximity bias in hybrid teams
15:26 The importance of ethical visibility for all employees
17:44 Closing remarks

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Projjal (PJ) Ghatak

Name: Projjal (PJ) Ghatak

What He Does: CEO and Co-Founder of OnLoop

Notable: Projjal Ghatak is the founder of On Loop, a habit-forming AI-powered platform for goals and feedback in high-functioning teams. On Loop was created to help managers of hybrid teams navigate the reduced visibility and clarity that comes with remote and hybrid work. Projjal has a background in working with global teams and is passionate about bringing fairness and visibility to everyone's work.

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

 Order
Read More
The Performance Paradox: Empowering Remote Teams through Feedback with Eduardo Briceño
Guests, Leadership

The Performance Paradox with Eduardo Briceño

In this episode, we're joined by Eduardo Briceño, renowned author of "The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset into Action". Eduardo sheds light on the power of feedback as the cornerstone of learning and high performance in a remote work world. Eduardo's insights reveal the importance of cultivating a growth mindset and encouraging team members to solicit feedback for continuous improvement. Learn how leaders can create a culture of learning and empower their remote teams to thrive, all while unraveling the mysteries of the performance paradox.

Key Takeaways

1. Feedback is Essential: Feedback is the most important strategy for learning, improving, and achieving high performance, especially in remote and hybrid work environments. It helps individuals understand the impact of their actions and allows for continuous improvement.
2. The Power of Growth Mindset: Embracing a growth mindset is crucial for personal and professional development. Leaders should encourage team members to see themselves as constantly evolving and capable of improvement, rather than being limited by fixed traits.
3. Focus on Soliciting Feedback: Creating a culture where team members actively solicit feedback empowers them to drive their own growth. Leaders can set the stage by being open to feedback themselves, modeling a learning culture for the entire team.
4. Balancing Praise and Improvement: When giving positive praise, avoid attributing success solely to innate abilities. Instead, focus on specific behaviors and their positive impact. This approach encourages individuals to keep improving and seeking feedback.
5. Regular Check-Ins and Opportunities: Regular team check-ins and personal conversations are critical in remote and hybrid work settings. Deliberately create opportunities for feedback discussions, allowing team members to address progress, challenges, and growth opportunities collaboratively.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:02 - 00:00:39:12
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the long distance work life forecast. Assuming that you've been here before and if you haven't. Welcome. My name is Wayne Turmel My usual co-host, Marisa is not here because this is one of our interview episodes and I am really, really excited. As you know, this podcast is designed to help leaders and people who are working remotely adjust to the new world of remote and hybrid work.

00:00:39:16 - 00:01:01:11
Wayne Turmel
And yet, while a lot of that feels new, there are some things about work and leading people that haven't changed at all in the great scheme of things. And that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about feedback, praise and how we do it or don't do it correctly. I am going to bring in our guest.

00:01:01:16 - 00:01:14:00
Wayne Turmel
Eduardo Briceno is the author of The Performance Paradox. Eduardo, tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into the meat of things here.

00:01:14:02 - 00:01:31:20
Eduardo Briceno
Sure. Thanks, Wayne, and it's great to be here. Eduardo Briceno I am a keynote speaker and facilitator that helps companies develop cultures of learning and of high performance. So as you said, I recently wrote a book called The Performance Paradox, which is about how to do that, how to build cultures of learning and high performance.

00:01:31:23 - 00:01:55:00
Wayne Turmel
Okay, So regardless of where they and their people sit, the one thing that leaders admit that they don't do very well is coaching and offering feedback. So let's start with why is feedback important? Well, let's start with why is feedback important? And then we'll get to how badly we're screwing things up.

00:01:55:02 - 00:02:18:07
Eduardo Briceno
Sure. So feedback is, I think, the most important strategy to learn and to improve and to perform highly, especially in work that is about communication and collaboration, which is most work, right, because we're social beings. And so what we're trying to do is we're trying to create a positive impact on other people, whether it is our customers, our partners, our colleagues.

00:02:18:08 - 00:02:39:19
Eduardo Briceno
And sometimes what we do doesn't have the impact that we want it to have. And so that's why feedback is so important so that we can get information about what's helpful or not helpful about what we're doing and so that we can continue to change and iterate so that we can have the impact we want to have. And also other people can give us information that might be helpful for us to generally to continue to improve.

00:02:39:19 - 00:02:52:08
Eduardo Briceno
They have different perspectives, they have different expertise. So more brains are smarter than one brain, especially if those brains are diverse, have different backgrounds and experiences and skills. And so that's why, you know, feedback is so critical and important.

00:02:52:10 - 00:03:15:19
Wayne Turmel
Or one of those brains is mine, and I'll take all the help I can get. The kind of common belief among leadership experts and I have fallen into this trap on more than one occasion is getting caught up in We give way more negative feedback than positive feedback. And you know, especially when you're working remotely, that balance gets off even more.

00:03:15:21 - 00:03:31:02
Wayne Turmel
But the thing about the performance paradox is you say something fairly disturbing, which is that we give positive praise incorrectly. Help me understand what's going on there.

00:03:31:04 - 00:03:59:22
Eduardo Briceno
Well, yeah. So you referred to the performance paradox. The performance paradox is a counterintuitive phenomenon that if we're always performing, our performance suffers. So if we're always getting things done, we stay at the same level of effectiveness and we don't improve further. So we can talk about that more. But to to your question about praise. I started this work when I started working with Stanford professor Carol Dweck.

00:04:00:00 - 00:04:23:09
Eduardo Briceno
She wrote the book called Mindset The New Psychology of Success. And I started working with her 15 years ago, and her research has shown and now thousands of researchers have studied the same thing in many different contexts, that when we are in what we call a fixed mindset, there's all kinds of negative consequences. A fixed mindset is when we think of ourselves or others as unable to change.

00:04:23:09 - 00:04:42:14
Eduardo Briceno
We think that people are either naturals and gifted or they're inept. And so, for example, if you're a good leader, it must be because you're a natural leader rather than everybody can continue to develop as a leader, or if you're great at giving and receiving feedback, it's because you're a natural, not because you've worked at it. It's not like you can continue to improve.

00:04:42:16 - 00:04:47:11
Wayne Turmel
And so that an unintended consequence of focusing on strengths.

00:04:47:13 - 00:05:07:14
Eduardo Briceno
Well, so we can focus on strengths either in a fixed way, in a fixed mindset way, or in a growth mindset. So if somebody is doing something really well, right, and we want to praise them, we can attribute their strength to something that's fixed and then you're so good at this, you know, keep doing this. But we're not we don't have the idea that they can continue to improve further, Right.

00:05:07:16 - 00:05:32:13
Eduardo Briceno
So that can make them feel like what they do well is just because of something that's inside of them and so few consequences of that. First, they won't they won't be looking to continue to improve that. So to continue to experiment, to continue to solicit feedback, to continue to read and watch podcast and about how to continue to improve that thing that they do well.

00:05:32:15 - 00:05:51:06
Eduardo Briceno
And then second, when they get into trouble, when they do something and it doesn't work well, we tend to feel really badly. We say, Oh, I must not be this good, right? So I'm just going to either give up and do something else because I'm not good at this or I'm just going to hide my mistake. Pretend that it didn't happen.

00:05:51:08 - 00:06:09:22
Eduardo Briceno
So those are some of the consequences of fixed mindset. And so when we're praising people, it's important to not label them, right? Not attribute what they're doing well to something that's fixed in them, but just say, hey, like this behavior that you did, this is the impact that it had. This is what I appreciated about that. And I would love for you to continue doing that.

00:06:09:22 - 00:06:20:22
Eduardo Briceno
Right. And so we are attributing that be the positive effects to what people do and always kind of commenting on behavior with the assumption that we can always continue to improve.

00:06:20:22 - 00:06:35:17
Wayne Turmel
And so let's go back to what you said about the performance paradox and that we're so busy doing stuff and that becomes the the focus. Tell me a little bit more about the actual paradox.

00:06:35:19 - 00:06:58:10
Eduardo Briceno
Yeah. So we tend to think that the way to succeed is just to work hard and to execute. And if we do a lot of an activity, we will get really good at that activity. But that's actually not true. It's actually gets us stuck. So if you think about if we take it out of our context so we can understand the idea and then we'll bring it back to our context.

00:06:58:12 - 00:07:21:04
Eduardo Briceno
If we think about, for example, a professional athlete, if they're working to win a championship, they're in the middle of a game. It's a really important game and they're having trouble with a particular move. Say, I'm a tennis player, I'm having trouble with the topspin serve and I'm having trouble with that move in that match. I'm going to try to avoid that move during that match because all I care about was winning.

00:07:21:05 - 00:07:43:04
Eduardo Briceno
Right. But then after the match, I'm going to go to my coach and I say, Coach, have to work on my topspin serve. So it's a very different activity and an area of attention. And what we do when we're seeking to improve and what we're seeking to execute and get things done. So that's what I call the learning zone is when we're working to improve and the performance tone is when we're working to perform and get things done.

00:07:43:06 - 00:08:03:16
Eduardo Briceno
And what often happens in work and life is that we are just focused about getting getting things done. All we care about is going through a task list, getting things done, and that works okay when we're novices because we're so bad that if we just try to do the activity, we'll get better. But then once we become proficient, we actually stagnate and we don't get better.

00:08:03:16 - 00:08:27:01
Eduardo Briceno
And so, for example, there's research out of Harvard that shows that the more years of experience that doctors, general physicians have on the job, on average, their patient outcomes actually get worse over time. The more experience they have because they're so busy seeing patients, right. Diagnosing and prescribing that they don't have time to engage in continuing to learn.

00:08:27:02 - 00:08:42:00
Eduardo Briceno
And and that's what is needed in order to improve and to increase performance. So we think that we're too busy to engage in learning, but actually we can get more done and perform better if we figure out how to embed learning and integrate learning into how we do things.

00:08:42:02 - 00:08:58:00
Wayne Turmel
And some of that, I presume, is tied to the old adage that, you know, you get what you practice. So, you know, spending hours and hours practicing or doing something doesn't make you better. And it just makes you really, really good at what you're doing. Well.

00:08:58:01 - 00:09:11:19
Eduardo Briceno
Right. And so if you're doing something to your point with techniques that are not great, you're going to reinforce those techniques to your point, are going to keep doing those techniques, even if they're not great techniques or if there are better techniques out there. Yeah.

00:09:11:22 - 00:09:40:16
Wayne Turmel
Now, one of the things that coaches tell coaches, leaders tell us all the time is that giving feedback can be kind of uncomfortable. And, you know, so we do tend to keep it very transactional, right? Go down the checklist and get that done. You are an advocate for, as are we for asking questions as a form of getting to the feedback.

00:09:40:21 - 00:09:46:10
Wayne Turmel
Tell me a little bit about how one does that. What kind of questions are we talking about?

00:09:46:13 - 00:10:15:06
Eduardo Briceno
Well, first, I do think the power of questions and helping people reflect in a coaching approach is so powerful and we can talk about that. I think before we do that, we need to set the stage. So when we start working with our colleagues and with our teams and this is so much more important to do even in a hybrid world, but to your point is important everywhere, right, is to set the stage in terms of how we want to work together, you know, and in lots of different ways, including feedback, Right?

00:10:15:07 - 00:10:39:15
Eduardo Briceno
What do we think of feedback? What is feedback? Because different people have different views of what feedback is. Some people are afraid of it. Some people are not just like some people are afraid of snakes and others are not. Some people are afraid of chickens, others are not. And so if we just go and start working with somebody and give them feedback, they might see feedback as something that is a sign that they're not doing their job well.

00:10:39:15 - 00:10:59:19
Eduardo Briceno
Right. Or a sign of of incompetence. Whereas we might see feedback as something that everybody can benefit from, right? Even the best person in the world loves to get feedback to get even better. And so we need to make our implicit assumptions about feedback, about learning, about what work is, about what our relationships are, about what we're trying to accomplish together.

00:10:59:21 - 00:11:19:14
Eduardo Briceno
We need to make those implicit assumptions explicit in conversation, right? So that we're not kind of dictating what culture we want to have, but co-creating that with our colleagues and say, Hey, what do people think about these ideas? What would you like to focus on? Should we focus on feedback now or in something else? How do we how can we work together as a team better?

00:11:19:16 - 00:11:23:17
Eduardo Briceno
And what do we what do we want to focus on now for the next month? For example?

00:11:23:19 - 00:11:48:07
Wayne Turmel
I think those assumptions are really important because we tend to work the way we like to work, right? We assume that everybody thinks about us. I'm one of those people. Don't sugarcoat it. Don't give me the sandwich. I don't need the fluff. Just tell me what I did wrong and we'll move on. Right. And that's my preference. And so that tends to be my default style.

00:11:48:09 - 00:12:14:09
Eduardo Briceno
That is my preference to wane and that is my default style to and it it was the default style also of a friend of mine and classmate. His name is Marcello Beddoes, and he's the CEO of Beauty for All Industries. And in my book I talk about a story that he shared with me, which is that his dad, who whom I've met, he his dad always gave him very blunt feedback and focused on what he could improve.

00:12:14:15 - 00:12:36:22
Eduardo Briceno
And Marcello knew that his father always meant love, and he was just being helpful. And it worked for him for Mattel. But when he became a CEO, he took that same approach with his colleagues and he would just tell them very straight, blunt, you know, here's here's what we can do better. And his colleagues felt like he didn't appreciate how hard they were working and what they were contributing.

00:12:37:02 - 00:12:54:16
Eduardo Briceno
So through feedback, through conversations, Marcello realized, okay, like, this is how I view feedback. This is how I like to receive feedback. But other people need to know that I appreciate them, that I'm seeing the work, the good work that they're doing because he did really appreciate them and that he think that they were being very valuable, but it wasn't coming across.

00:12:54:21 - 00:13:10:15
Eduardo Briceno
So he had to learn through feedback how what was going to be the culture and the rituals of that team. Because to your point, we all have different preferences and so we need to be in conversation and co-create the culture with our colleagues so that we can do something that works for everybody.

00:13:10:17 - 00:13:34:20
Wayne Turmel
So tell me about the questions that you ask, because there is a huge difference between what were you thinking and what were you thinking? I mean, those are those are two they sound like the same question, but they're not. Right. So talk to us about what kinds of questions get us, the kind of results that you're talking about.

00:13:34:21 - 00:13:56:12
Eduardo Briceno
Well, yeah, I agree. And I think that the setting and the purpose of the conversation is very important. Kind of what what is to come, the common understanding about our goals. And so it depends on what kind of conversation is and what the goal is. But I think it's important in anticipation of that, to share with each other what we're looking to improve.

00:13:56:12 - 00:14:18:11
Eduardo Briceno
What am I interested in getting better at sharing that with my colleagues so that we all know what we're all working on so we can help each other around those areas in particular. So if I'm having a coaching conversation with a colleague and I know, you know, she's working on participating more in meetings, you know, I might ask her, hey, how, how, how do you think that's going?

00:14:18:11 - 00:14:51:18
Eduardo Briceno
How do you feel about your progress or not in participating in meetings? And then she might give some reflections around that. Right. And I might say, well, what specifically did you feel went well or didn't go well, or what did you do that that made it go well or that what could you have done differently so that helping reflect on how much progress is she making and what is she doing or not doing that is working and very important to identify what is she going to do differently going forward.

00:14:51:18 - 00:15:15:22
Eduardo Briceno
So in the next meeting or the next few meetings, what what one thing is she going to work on in order to continue to improve and how can I support her to it? How can I support you in your progress? Do you have any feedback for me? And that's probably the most part. One of the most powerful questions to ask as a as a colleague and as a leader is do you have feedback for me or what could I have done better or I'm trying to get better at this.

00:15:15:22 - 00:15:28:17
Eduardo Briceno
Do you have any ideas? When we model soliciting feedback, then we are modeling a learning culture where we're learning from each other. And when other people emulate our behaviors, then we build a culture we want to build.

00:15:28:19 - 00:15:48:18
Wayne Turmel
I like what you said about asking those questions because if you ask those questions early on, you know, how do you think it went? You know where they're at in terms of receiving the feedback if they're beating themselves up, Oh, I suck. I was the worst little bit. Okay. That's I have to work with that person differently than if somebody goes, Oh, I was great.

00:15:48:18 - 00:15:49:15
Wayne Turmel
I was bulletproof.

00:15:49:18 - 00:16:11:12
Eduardo Briceno
Absolutely. Yeah. And if they're generating those insights is is much more powerful and it's much more credible, they understand it a lot better. So if we are helping them generate the thoughts and having the thoughts come from them is going to work a lot better than if we are kind of trying to transmit the thoughts from us to them.

00:16:11:15 - 00:16:35:06
Wayne Turmel
You know, the big difference, it seems when you're in the office versus working remotely or apart from each other is the opportunities for feedback. And we've only got a few minutes left because that's the way the world works. But as a leader, how do I help myself remember to create those opportunities?

00:16:35:08 - 00:17:00:04
Eduardo Briceno
Well, I think regular tech teams are so powerful when possible, right? It's just having regular conversations scheduled in the calendar and they're recurring basis whether one on one or there are some cultures where you can have a team conversation that involves feedback, where people have so much trust that you can have open and honest conversations. And that's super powerful because then when you're having those conversations, other people can chime in, Oh, I saw that too.

00:17:00:04 - 00:17:23:13
Eduardo Briceno
Or, you know, but what I appreciated about about that was X, so you can learn more in a group conversation. But with hybrid, Yes. So it's harder to build relationships. It's hard to build trust. So it's important for us to be deliberate about creating those regular conversations, to creating opportunities for having personal conversations, not only work conversations, but it also creates opportunity, right?

00:17:23:13 - 00:17:48:13
Eduardo Briceno
Because we can connect with any of our colleagues wherever they are. We can be more equitable. We can because if we have kind of regular check ins with everybody, we can have conversations with everybody and not be as biased around who is who is closer to us or who are working more regular and regular basis. So we I think we have to be more deliberate in general in a hybrid environment, but but it also comes with opportunities.

00:17:48:17 - 00:18:12:21
Wayne Turmel
We are sadly at the end of our time and this is one of those conversations that I could geek out for a very long time on. And Eduardo, if there's one thing that you want people to walk away, and of course, if people only walk away from one thing in this conversation we done a terrible job. But if there is only one thing that they can walk away with, what do you want people to know?

00:18:12:23 - 00:18:35:20
Eduardo Briceno
What I want people to know is that feedback is probably the most powerful way to improve and to build relationships and the most effective. The most powerful thing that you can do around feedback is to encourage the soliciting of feedback and solicit feedback yourself. When people solicit feedback rather than focus on giving feedback, then the person soliciting the feedback is in the driver's seat.

00:18:36:02 - 00:18:50:09
Eduardo Briceno
They can ask for specifically what they're looking for. They can also choose the time, right? Which is more important, a hybrid setting. When am I ready to hear this feedback? So a culture of soliciting feedback is the most powerful thing that you can build when it comes to feedback.

00:18:50:11 - 00:19:17:16
Wayne Turmel
Eduardo was saying, you know, the book is The Power of Performance Paradox. Thank you so much for being with us on the Long-Distance Worklife. That's it. Thank you, everybody. If you want to know how to contact Eduardo, how to learn more about the book and about his work, go to longdistanceworklife.com, It will all be in the show notes as is a transcript of the show.

00:19:17:18 - 00:19:45:03
Wayne Turmel
If you are looking to build your team with a culture of feedback, may we suggest the long distance team designing your team for everyone's success? Kevin Eikenberry and my new book, you can learn more specifically about the book with special offers at longdistanceteambook.com. Marisa will be with us in the next show. I know many of you say thank goodness, like and subscribe to the show.

00:19:45:05 - 00:20:10:03
Wayne Turmel
You know how podcasts work. If you like it, tell your friends If you didn't. It's just our little secret and you can reach us directly on LinkedIn or by email. We are currently soliciting pet peeves about remote work and your questions. So we want to make sure that the show addresses what you care about in this new world of work.

00:20:10:03 - 00:20:20:11
Wayne Turmel
So thank you so much for being with us this week. My name is Wayne Turmel. We'll see you again on the long distance work life. And don't let the weasels get you down.


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:39 Importance of Feedback
01:14 Guest Introduction: Eduardo Briceno
01:55 Why Is Feedback Important?
02:18 Impact of Feedback in Communication and Collaboration
02:52 Importance of Diverse Perspectives in Feedback
03:15 The Performance Paradox: Balancing Performance and Improvement
04:00 The Impact of Fixed Mindset in Feedback
04:47 Focusing on Strengths in a Growth Mindset
05:32 The Consequences of Fixed Mindset in Feedback
06:20 The Learning Zone vs. Performance Zone
06:58 How Continuous Learning Leads to Improvement
08:02 Importance of Regular Check-ins and Conversations
08:58 Understanding Individual Preferences
09:40 Setting the Stage for Feedback
10:15 Asking Reflective Questions
11:19 Building a Culture of Soliciting Feedback
12:14 Understanding Different Feedback Styles
13:10 Creating Opportunities for Feedback in Remote and Hybrid Settings
16:11 The Power of Soliciting Feedback
17:48 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Eduardo Briceno, author of The Performance Paradox

Name: Eduardo Briceño

What He Does: Author of The Performance Paradox, Keynote Speaker, and Facilitator

Notable: Eduardo has a bachelor’s degree in finance from the Wharton School and an MBA from Stanford, as well as degrees in chemical engineering and education. He is a Pahara-Aspen Fellow, a member of the Aspen Institute’s Global Leadership Network, and an inductee in the Happiness Hall of Fame. He has helped some of the world’s largest companies develop a culture of learning and high performance and his TED talks have been viewed over eight million times. 

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

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