Guests, Leadership, Working Remotely

The 12-Week MBA: A New Approach to Remote Leadership Training with Nathan Kracklauer

Wayne Turmel chats with Nathan Kracklauer, the Chief Research Officer at Abilitie, about the innovative 12-Week MBA program. Discover how this experiential learning approach is transforming remote leadership training and providing valuable skills for managers in hybrid and remote work environments. Nathan shares his insights on the importance of building trust, learning in cohorts, and the unique challenges faced by remote leaders. Tune in to learn how you can elevate your management skills without stepping away from your career.

Key Takeaways

1. Explore Flexible Learning Options: Consider enrolling in innovative programs like the 12-Week MBA to gain essential leadership skills without the time and financial burden of traditional MBAs.
2. Focus on Building Trust in Remote Teams: Prioritize developing trust and effective communication within your remote or hybrid teams to enhance collaboration and productivity.
3. Leverage Peer Learning: Engage in cohort-based learning to benefit from the diverse perspectives and motivation that comes from studying with peers.
4. Seek Credible Certification: Ensure that any non-traditional learning program you undertake provides credible certification or evidence of completion to bolster your resume and professional credibility.
5. Adapt to Global Learning Trends: Stay open to new and flexible learning methods that are being increasingly accepted worldwide, making education more accessible and relevant to your career goals.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;26 - 00;00;37;26
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Long Distance Worklife for podcast dedicated to remote hybrid working, thriving, surviving wherever you happen to be trying to get your work done. My name is Wayne Turmel. I am super excited to be here today. This is a sans-Marisa episode, which means we have a very, learned, exciting, cool guest that I'm excited for you to see.

00;00;37;27 - 00;00;50;01
Wayne Turmel
And we're going to bring him in right now. Nathan Kracklauer who is in Germany somewhere? welcome to the long-distance worklife.

00;00;50;04 - 00;00;52;28
Nathan Kracklauer
Yeah. Thank you. Wayne, it's a pleasure being here.

00;00;53;00 - 00;00;56;13
Wayne Turmel
So who are you and why do we care?

00;00;56;15 - 00;01;22;11
Nathan Kracklauer
well, I am the chief research officer of a company called ability. And ability does management leadership training. through a methodology called experiential learning and specifically through business simulations. And we have a, a solution that is what we call a mini MBA. We call it the 12 week MBA, about which I have just written a book along with our CEO.

00;01;22;13 - 00;01;44;02
Nathan Kracklauer
And, it's an online learning experience, which I think is what many of your listeners will be interested in to see, you know, what are the approaches you can take to learning, to, how to learn about management related topics online, but also maybe what management related topics are different, when you're working online?

00;01;44;04 - 00;02;12;00
Wayne Turmel
Well, yeah. I mean, let's let's start with the idea of the kind of do it yourself structured finding stuff where you can way of educating yourself. a lot of our listeners know I don't have a formal college degree, certainly not an MBA. And yet here I am, right. so I am passionate about self-development and learning and taking it on yourself.

00;02;12;02 - 00;02;27;19
Wayne Turmel
How does the kind of traditional MBA experience, but up against remote and hybrid work and the way that we're working now in whatever part of the 21st century this is?

00;02;27;22 - 00;02;52;26
Nathan Kracklauer
Yeah, I mean, that's I think that's one of the core questions, I think for many years, just having, the traditional MBA to work with as an option has limited very many people from gaining the kinds of management, not experienced, but the access to the skills, the knowledge and the insights and the mindsets, even though they would, like you said for yourself, have ample opportunities to have to use them in the real world that they were facing.

00;02;52;26 - 00;03;16;11
Nathan Kracklauer
Right. And the challenge, I guess, of the traditional MBA is it makes you take off, you know, 1 to 2 years out of the workforce. And that is a huge cost, both personal. because, you know, that's two years out of your life. and it's a financial as well, but it's also the opportunity of cost of not continuing to develop your personal network in a, in an industry and in a company.

00;03;16;11 - 00;03;37;26
Nathan Kracklauer
It's you're not developing your knowledge of that industry and your skills specific to that industry in that company. And so for many people, it hasn't really been been an option or an attractive option. and yet we all know that when you make that transition from being an individual contributor to being a manager, you need some kind of support.

00;03;37;28 - 00;03;41;23
Nathan Kracklauer
it's an entirely different universe. On the other side of that threshold.

00;03;41;25 - 00;04;01;19
Wayne Turmel
So what are the things? What are the things specifically? call them topics or subject matters. Just because we got to call them something. Where are the areas of learning that, particularly when it comes to remote work, people are most in need of.

00;04;01;22 - 00;04;29;02
Nathan Kracklauer
Yeah. So, in our program, we focus on two areas. And with respect to remote learning and the challenge, excuse me, the remote working and the challenges thereof. it's really the second topic that is, I think, the one that stands in the, in our focus, which is how we work with people, and in truth, few of our formal, learning opportunities, certainly throughout, school and throughout college and even throughout the MBA, they don't focus enough on that.

00;04;29;02 - 00;04;51;19
Nathan Kracklauer
And yet, what we need to know about how to work alongside others and through others as a manager, is all the more urgent in that remote setting? and I think the first principle, again, in any kind of relationship, in any kind of working relationship, is the principle of working in a trusting relationship, finding, trust.

00;04;51;19 - 00;05;19;00
Nathan Kracklauer
But it's all the more important online, working remotely, as I have experienced myself. because there are so few opportunities to do the kinds of care and feeding of relationships that sort of are natural and built into how we, have been sort of built to work together over millennia, and over our entire evolutionary history.

00;05;19;00 - 00;05;27;14
Nathan Kracklauer
So we're kind of separated from each other when we work remotely. And a lot of the ways that we build trust are just simply not there. So we have to find ways to replicate them online.

00;05;27;17 - 00;05;54;01
Wayne Turmel
So one of the things that I have certainly dealt with in my own career, and the people who take advantage of your program or those just building their own right, is so many of us have done is at least if you go to Wharton or even University of Phenix or something, where there is a name that says, yes, you have completed this.

00;05;54;03 - 00;06;25;18
Wayne Turmel
If you're going to develop yourself, how do you do that in a way that is credible to the people who are going to care, right. People in your organization who promote you, who want to know that you've actually studied this stuff, you can't just say, oh yeah, I read all these book and took all these online courses. How do you actually build a credible resume with the outside world when you're doing it piecemeal, bit by bit, on your own?

00;06;25;20 - 00;06;56;16
Nathan Kracklauer
Yeah, that is truly the challenge. And, I think from an employer perspective, it's quite interesting. I see you and I were talking about this, just the other day about his experience, that he had recently speaking to somebody on the employer's side who also questioned whether the amount of time and money you spent on an MBA, for those who have done that actually bodes well for your decision making prowess and your financial investment making prowess in the real world, so that could actually go in the opposite direction.

00;06;56;16 - 00;07;21;03
Nathan Kracklauer
But I think what employers do value is the fact that you are making those efforts, because not everybody does. So if you can say, look, I actually went to this course and it was concluded, now we have to, of course, providers like ourselves have to provide something that says, yes, it was completed according to the completion criteria we have so that you can legitimately post that on your LinkedIn resume, your LinkedIn profile, or on your resume.

00;07;21;06 - 00;07;56;25
Nathan Kracklauer
but, the signal that you are doing that, that you are spending money, but more importantly, your time to develop yourself indicates something to employers. And that may actually be, appreciated if it's at smaller and incremental skills and in specific targeted areas than if it's this general, traditional two year MBA that's highly expensive, and the content might not be as focused on the specific tasks that you are trying to that you're currently doing, or that you're trying to, apply for in your next job in the next step up.

00;07;56;27 - 00;08;30;11
Wayne Turmel
Which I think for those listening kind of raises an important point. And while I'm not, you know, I don't encourage busy work and kind of covering your butt with tons of paperwork you need evidence of having done these things, even if it's just a certificate from the provider or something to say that you have completed this program or gotten this grade on the program or however it works, you got to have that evidence.

00;08;30;14 - 00;08;58;05
Nathan Kracklauer
Yeah, exactly. And and one of the ways that, I mean, we're, experimenting with this is I think many programs are, something we introduced, just in the last cohort that we, we had for our program, was to have the option to have closing interviews, so to speak, with some of our facilitators. And, so our faculty and, what that allowed the participants to do was, share.

00;08;58;07 - 00;09;21;25
Nathan Kracklauer
I mean, it wasn't it wasn't like an oral examination, but they could they had some questions that they could prepare and then have a conversation. Really. with the faculty member that went back and forth. So how does this apply to you in this concept that you talked about? How does this apply to your particular position? And, you know, how could it maybe how could it apply in your next position in having more of a, a conversation around some of the core topics?

00;09;21;25 - 00;09;44;12
Nathan Kracklauer
But what that also allowed for is the participant to feel quite confident that they had truly understood the concepts it was had that character of an examination without feeling like it to, you know, provide validation of the concepts. And what it then allowed us to do is to say, you know what? As part of that, you know, if you apply to your job, will will also, you know, write a recommendation for you on that basis.

00;09;44;12 - 00;10;00;25
Nathan Kracklauer
So there are ways, I think, that these online programs like ours are experimenting with to provide exactly that sort of evidence in ways that are also even relevant, maybe more relevant than just having a stamp of approval on on a resume or a badge on a, on a LinkedIn charter.

00;10;00;27 - 00;10;29;15
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. You said something earlier that I want to get back to, which is the notion of learning in cohorts. there's kind of this notion that especially if you are a remote worker and, you know, you're out in the provinces somewhere, wherever you happen to be, that you're kind of on your own to do this. certainly a lot of what I did back in the day was me and a book and a course and an online thing.

00;10;29;18 - 00;10;35;10
Wayne Turmel
But talk to me about learning in cohorts and what that means.

00;10;35;12 - 00;10;53;19
Nathan Kracklauer
right. Yeah. So, I think that's new terminology that is coming along, but I what it gets to is that learning is inherently also a social activity. And when you think about it, what we get out of our peers is not just that we can learn from each other, although that's a big part of it. Right?

00;10;53;19 - 00;11;11;25
Nathan Kracklauer
We'll have complementary experiences. but if we could put together with a group of other peers and have, avenues for interacting with each other, we will teach each other things. but we'll also be using each other as benchmarks, really? We'll say, I'm finding this very hard if we if we do that on our own.

00;11;11;25 - 00;11;36;25
Nathan Kracklauer
Right. If we're all in our lonesome, reading a book we don't know is the problem with me. Or is this book maybe not written well, or is this concept not one that's even relevant to me? We just don't know these things. If you go into a group of peers and you find I'm having a hard time with this, but then I discover everybody else is too, that actually is a very relieving experience, that can help us be motivated to actually dive a little bit deeper and put in the extra effort.

00;11;36;27 - 00;11;59;08
Nathan Kracklauer
Or conversely, we find that everybody else already understands it, then that might raise some anxiety, but that also means it's time for us to up our game, because everybody else gets this concept. I better get it too. So there are many different ways that we reinforce each other's motivation and learning when we work together in groups or cohorts, as is the fashionable word now.

00;11;59;10 - 00;12;35;29
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I mean, there is something to be said for learning with other people. And, you know, we spend a lot of time when we work remotely and we work in our own heads going, maybe it's just me and this, this notion that it's yeah, it's probably not. Yeah, right. And where it is, you clearly you need to step up your game, but where you realize, oh, it's not just me or a lot of times I'll find that a colleague or somebody else has a way of explaining it that maybe is clearer than what the instructor is telling me.

00;12;36;02 - 00;13;11;01
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, right. It's a way of picking it up that way. So what's the balance of alone work? And I know we're talking about your program in particular, and there are other companies out there, you know, no big shock. There are other companies doing kind of the same thing. And certainly you can self-organize a lot of stuff. But, you know, just in your, company's experience, what's the balance of head down alone work versus synchronous with other people versus asynchronous with other people?

00;13;11;04 - 00;13;35;15
Nathan Kracklauer
Yeah. I yeah, trying to run the numbers in my head now, but I think it's going to be on the scale of two thirds, three quarters, actually in synchronous activities for us. And I think that's really important, especially when it's online. Now, the reason that we can do that is that our particular methodology, I mean, one way to do this right would be, hey, you come to a synchronous event where there's an instructor and maybe they're able to get the discussion going on a zoom call with breakouts.

00;13;35;15 - 00;13;56;15
Nathan Kracklauer
And there's some of that too. but then that the, the classic way of doing this is then you go and you work on something on your own, an exercise or problem set or whatever, whatever it is, you maybe write a little paper delivery. That's sort of the classic way of doing things where a lot of the application is what you do on your own, and then the information gathering is what you do in the classroom.

00;13;56;22 - 00;14;26;15
Nathan Kracklauer
What we do is we have these business simulations that are platforms are actually applying the concepts directly, and we're in one synchronous experience, along with our colleagues and with a faculty member going through cycles of experiencing the actual content by making decisions, running a virtual business along with their colleagues, and then going back and cycling back into a discussion with the instructor about, okay, what does this mean?

00;14;26;20 - 00;14;54;27
Nathan Kracklauer
What does this mean in the real world? Here's some new tips and ideas, new concepts, maybe on business acumen. maybe on on, how to build trust, maybe on how to work together in teams. And now with those new inputs, let's go back into the next cycle and start applying them. So in that way, what we have is a, experience that is fundamentally built on the synchronous and where the, the, asynchronous components and the self-study components are somewhat ancillary to that.

00;14;54;29 - 00;15;26;12
Wayne Turmel
One of the things that I find fascinating is, and the more I do this podcast, the more I realize, you know, I'm a Canadian living in the States, talking to people wherever. And, and and that has just boggled my brain for years, right. That the world is that small. you are living in Germany right now. How does the rest of the world look at these kind of incremental, less formal ways of learning?

00;15;26;12 - 00;15;38;07
Wayne Turmel
Do German companies offer more or less credibility to those? Are they still kind of hidebound to the traditional university approach? What's the rest of the world doing about this?

00;15;38;10 - 00;16;06;08
Nathan Kracklauer
It's yeah, it's really, of course, quite complicated because first of all, I don't know most of the rest of the world. I do know Europe fairly well. And there's divides north, south, east, west and all that. that make that, answer quite complex to answer, just for example, I think you find, that in, in traditionally the Latin based cultures of southern Europe, the role of the teacher, the instructor is quite different.

00;16;06;10 - 00;16;30;29
Nathan Kracklauer
the instructor, the expectation coming from learners is that that person be, more of an authority figure, whereas in northern Europe you would now have. No, no, we're all peers here, including the faculty member. And so that drives a whole different I mean, that's part of this, but, that's just one of the major phenomena that overlays the cultural differences.

00;16;30;29 - 00;17;10;07
Nathan Kracklauer
That alone makes up for quite significant differences, I would say, between any given area in Europe and the US. And I know it's quite there are many similar dynamics in play also, all around the world. I've worked quite a bit in Asia. Also, I think in terms of the acceptance and credibility of these things, I do think the US, is moving somewhat more quickly on that, that, the idea of do it yourself and, less formal training and alternatives to, to traditional methods, I think there's more of a willingness to pioneer that, in the US and I don't mean pioneered from the state of, point of

00;17;10;07 - 00;17;34;17
Nathan Kracklauer
view of the provider, but pioneer it as actual user thereof, as somebody willing to try these things out. by and large, I think the acceptance is somewhat higher in the US, but at the same time, I want to qualify with that, with saying that many of the, areas around the world, that have not had access to, let's say, the traditional forms of education are also now quite willing to pioneer that and are hungry for it.

00;17;34;19 - 00;18;05;19
Nathan Kracklauer
so I have personally not had many opportunities to travel to Africa, for instance. But I know that we have actually many participants in our open enrollment programs coming from Africa through partnerships, in, in that broad region, very large region, continent, and that, actually are quite interested in using these alternatives because they are more accessible in, in time, accessible in terms of the financial resources required and so on.

00;18;05;21 - 00;18;39;01
Wayne Turmel
While I've got about ten more questions that I want to ask and not nearly enough time. Nathan Kracklauer from ability. If you are interested in learning more about their programs, if you're interested in learning more about Nathan, we will have all of those links and other good stuff on our website. Long distance work life.com, along with a transcript of this, conversation so that if you missed some of the good stuff that we talked about or didn't get the notes right, they are there for you.

00;18;39;04 - 00;18;46;00
Wayne Turmel
Nathan, thank you so much for being with us, man. I really appreciate your time today. It's been a good conversation.

00;18;46;02 - 00;18;50;22
Nathan Kracklauer
Thank you. And it has been and I look forward to speaking with you again.

00;18;50;24 - 00;19;22;08
Wayne Turmel
Alrighty. So we are wrapping it up. as I say, you can always find, transcripts, links, information on this or any of our conversations at Long Distance Work life.com. I would also urge you, if you are interested in learning more about leading remote hybrid teams. Nathan mentioned public programs. Certainly ability has public programs that anyone in the world can register for, as do we.

00;19;22;08 - 00;19;51;18
Wayne Turmel
The long distance leadership series is an important part of what we do. You can visit Kevineikenberry.com/LDLS which stands for Long Distance Leadership series. And as always you can reach out to myself or Marisa. Questions comments, vicious personal attacks. Anything that you would like to share with us. We are at your service. You can email us or connect through LinkedIn or our LinkedIn page for this show.

00;19;51;18 - 00;20;13;04
Wayne Turmel
For the long distance work life. That's it! Thank you so much. You all know how podcasts work. Please like and subscribe. We hope that if this is your first time with us, you see it. Check out the other episodes and if you are a long time listener, thank you, thank you and be part of the community. Be part of the conversation.

00;20;13;04 - 00;20;28;04
Wayne Turmel
We want to bring you off that you want to know about. So that's it. I am you know, pretty much done with you for the day. Go to. My name is Wayne Turmel. Don't let the weasels get you down.

00;20;28;06 - 00;20;32;11
Unknown


00;20;32;13 - 00;20;33;13
Unknown



Featured Guest

Name: Nathan Kracklauer

Bio: Nathan Kracklauer is the co-author of "The 12-Week MBA," a groundbreaking book that reimagines business and management education for the 21st century. With over twenty years of experience in learning and development, Nathan has designed and delivered leadership programs for multinational corporations and top-tier business schools. He is passionate about inspiring people to take on management roles with confidence, competence, and compassion. Additionally, Nathan has led product design and development teams, successfully commercializing innovative learning software applications.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
01:22 What is the 12-Week MBA?
03:37 Challenges of Traditional MBAs
04:52 Importance of Self-Development
05:19 Key Topics in Remote Leadership Training
07:56 Credibility of Non-Traditional Learning
12:36 Learning in Cohorts
14:54 Balancing Synchronous and Asynchronous Learning
18:39 Global Perspectives on Learning
20:28 Closing Thoughts and Resources

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Long-Distance Leadership Series

If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

 Learn More
Read More
Revolutionizing Remote Onboarding with AI: Insights and Innovations
Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Revolutionizing Remote Onboarding with AI: Insights and Innovations

Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel dive into the exciting intersection of AI and employee onboarding. They explore how AI tools like Microsoft Copilot and ChatGPT can streamline the onboarding process, enhance personalization, and provide 24/7 support for new hires. Tune in to hear real-life examples, expert insights, and a touch of humor as Marisa and Wayne discuss the future of AI in remote and hybrid work environments. Discover how AI can revolutionize the onboarding experience, making new employees feel valued and accelerating their assimilation into the company culture.

Key Takeaways

1. Leverage AI for Time Efficiency: Integrate AI tools like Microsoft Copilot or ChatGPT to handle repetitive onboarding tasks, saving time for both new hires and onboarding managers.
2. Personalize the Onboarding Experience: Tag and categorize onboarding materials to help AI deliver personalized content that matches the specific skills and needs of new hires.
3. Implement 24/7 Chatbot Support: Set up chatbots to provide continuous support, ensuring new hires can get answers to their questions even when human supervisors are unavailable.
4. Utilize Data-Driven Insights: Regularly review data collected by AI tools to identify areas for improvement and make data-driven decisions to enhance the onboarding process.
5. Balance AI with Human Interaction: Use AI to manage routine tasks, freeing up managers to focus on building personal relationships with new hires, which is crucial for engagement and assimilation.
6. Integrate AI with Internal Systems: Work with your IT team to connect AI tools with your company’s internal network and resources, ensuring they have access to the relevant data and documents needed for effective onboarding.
7. Solicit Feedback from New Hires: Regularly gather feedback from new employees about their onboarding experience and use this information to continuously refine and improve the process.

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;02 - 00;00;20;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long Distance Worklife, where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, fellow remote worker. And joining me is remote work expert and my co-host, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00;00;20;11 - 00;00;24;05
Wayne Turmel
Hi. I'm here until I am replaced by our robot overlords.

00;00;24;08 - 00;00;45;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Every time. but, listeners, so some of you who have been listening to this show for a while, you heard us talk about zoom and some of the AI stuff that's being added to all kinds of different platforms and not just zoom itself. And so we wanted to take a little bit of that and talk about AI and onboarding and how those two could kind of come together.

00;00;45;22 - 00;00;54;28
Marisa Eikenberry
And in true AI fashion. we decided to get a little meta and ask, I believe it was copilot right wing.

00;00;55;00 - 00;01;26;29
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So here's the deal. we have been playing with various things, you know, what is it that we're worried about? Right. And one of the hardest things for remote and hybrid teams is onboarding employees. Right? And I have sat through enough HR, software, webinars, taking the bullets so you don't have to. Dear listener. And one of the things that they say all the time is, well, it can help with onboarding.

00;01;27;05 - 00;01;29;11
Wayne Turmel
And me being me went, okay.

00;01;29;11 - 00;01;32;16
Marisa Eikenberry
How right. Tell me.

00;01;32;18 - 00;01;50;23
Wayne Turmel
Seems a reasonable question. and so, as Marisa says, we we decided let's see what AI has to say about this, and then we will respond. And so, as it turns out, I was using copilot.

00;01;50;25 - 00;01;51;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;01;51;25 - 00;02;00;07
Wayne Turmel
a lot of people who don't work with this day in and day out assume that ChatGPT is the.

00;02;00;10 - 00;02;01;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Guy who built.

00;02;01;28 - 00;02;17;10
Wayne Turmel
It. It's the one that they know. It's the Kleenex, right? It's their whatever. You're on the generic Xerox of the, AI world. And in fact, I had dinner the other night with somebody who uses three services.

00;02;17;12 - 00;02;17;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, wow.

00;02;18;02 - 00;02;48;01
Wayne Turmel
That GPT, she uses Google Bard, and she uses Microsoft Copilot, and they all have their charms. So this is not a recommendation. I will tell you that I use copilot for the simple reason that my free ChatGPT account ran out, and I just didn't feel like paying for it. Whereas because I am a Microsoft office 365 user, I get copilot for free.

00;02;48;04 - 00;03;14;03
Wayne Turmel
Done. Sold. Sign me up. The other thing that copilot does, which I like, and this is as close to a recommendation as you're going to get folks. Is that what I like is that copilot gives you the source from which they drew the information. So if it's an article, some of it, for example, you look and go, oh, that's paid content, right?

00;03;14;04 - 00;03;31;05
Wayne Turmel
So I need to pay that. Take that with a grain of salt. I like having the the source content available. so we did. The question was. And I asked very politely because I'm very, of course, machines.

00;03;31;08 - 00;03;34;15
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, I said thank you to our echo all the time.

00;03;34;18 - 00;03;54;15
Wayne Turmel
Alexa and I, I am extremely, extremely kind. but the question was, what are five ways I can assist in onboarding new employees? This is a very real problem that people are having, right? And so they came up with five ways.

00;03;54;17 - 00;04;06;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And so like I was going to say I'm looking at the first one right now. And one of the first ones it talks about is time efficiency. and how, you know, onboarding takes a while. Like we've all been there.

00;04;06;09 - 00;04;31;09
Wayne Turmel
Well, it does take a while. And there are even the obvious, even the less obvious things. Like, I know my boss told me this yesterday in the three hour orientation brain dump that I was given, but I can't remember. Where do I find X right? Right. AI is great for hey copilot! Where the heck do I find that?

00;04;31;12 - 00;04;45;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Well, and and I know that some people are also doing, like, employee handbooks or something. Also make documentation. So that way you're not asking Susie every five minutes where something is because she might kill you if you ask too many questions.

00;04;45;28 - 00;05;18;16
Wayne Turmel
Now, I actually one of the things that we need to preface this with, because I ran into somebody who was a little confused and not everybody who listens to this clearly is an expert in such things. Some of us who speak on it are barely experts on such things. but it was clear if your company has a paid account and the AI is tied to your internal network and your internal content.

00;05;18;18 - 00;05;19;18
Marisa Eikenberry


00;05;19;20 - 00;05;21;07
Wayne Turmel
It will find anything.

00;05;21;10 - 00;05;22;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00;05;22;10 - 00;05;45;19
Wayne Turmel
And if I am a new employee and I don't even know the name of something, and I don't know exactly where it is on the drive, and it's hidden over here. And by the way, you don't have to be a new employee. I frequently, because we have 13 people. I've been here ten years. KPMG, Google Drive is insanely dense with content.

00;05;45;23 - 00;05;47;11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. It's massive.

00;05;47;14 - 00;05;55;21
Wayne Turmel
It's massive. And not everybody uses the same thought process as to where that file is.

00;05;55;22 - 00;05;57;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;05;57;27 - 00;06;12;00
Wayne Turmel
and so if I'm looking for what is the password to get on to our corporate zoom account to lead a webinar, we've got several accounts. Right. Where the heck is the password for that?

00;06;12;02 - 00;06;17;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Because you might look for it in a place that wasn't where I put it.

00;06;17;18 - 00;06;48;10
Wayne Turmel
I did not know that that information is on the tech team folder. Yeah. Not what I would have thought it'd be under instructor materials, because the instructor might need to know where how to get on. so that kind of thing is great. And when you're a new employee, when you're struggling to learn stuff, you don't always know the question to ask, and you're afraid to ask the question because, you know, somebody just told you this yesterday, right?

00;06;48;13 - 00;06;51;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Like I said, you don't ask too many questions or Susie will kill you.

00;06;51;25 - 00;06;59;09
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, exactly. so that's actually a really, really powerful tool just right there.

00;06;59;12 - 00;06;59;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;07;00;02 - 00;07;10;19
Wayne Turmel
The ability to do that. Now, again, you know, if you if you are not if you're AI is not connected to the network, you're going to get somebody else's.

00;07;10;22 - 00;07;11;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;07;11;10 - 00;07;29;04
Wayne Turmel
And you're going to get all kinds of useless information. Right. But that's so yes, your your organization. In order to optimize, I must have it reading your network or you're not going to get the value of this.

00;07;29;07 - 00;07;44;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and real quick, we've talked about this too in our previous episode where you were talking about, you know, my boss just said this in a meeting the other day. If you have, like I set up for like zoom or something like that, it can give you action items or, you know, here's the main points of this meeting.

00;07;44;06 - 00;07;51;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And so you might be able to consult that. and, you know, instead of asking your boss again.

00;07;51;07 - 00;08;02;03
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, absolutely. And especially in Microsoft Teams, you can punch in the date of the meeting and assuming your IT department has set it up, actually find that stuff.

00;08;02;06 - 00;08;02;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, that's.

00;08;02;25 - 00;08;15;08
Wayne Turmel
What what I have started doing is on sales calls is I will say to the customer, do you mind if I run this in the background? Because it's going to take way better notes than I can.

00;08;15;11 - 00;08;22;17
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh yeah. Yeah. And then you get to focus on the conversation. You don't have to focus on making sure that you've typed everything exactly right.

00;08;22;17 - 00;08;48;24
Wayne Turmel
And by the way, it does a really, really good job. Yeah. everything I've done, teams, zoom. you know, any I that's attached to WebEx at any I that's attached to that has been trained really well to take good notes. And you will remember who gets what action item and who raised this issue and like that.

00;08;49;01 - 00;08;50;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;08;50;05 - 00;08;58;00
Wayne Turmel
so for time efficiency first thing. Yeah. Copilot told me time efficiency. the answer is yes.

00;08;58;02 - 00;08;58;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;08;59;00 - 00;09;00;20
Wayne Turmel
Okay. You dig that?

00;09;00;23 - 00;09;18;26
Marisa Eikenberry
So what about, the next one it had was personalization. So it said you can utilize AI and machine learning. Onboarding programs can be tailored to match the specific skill set and needs of a new hire and personalized training and materials and resources. I'm failing to see your AI helps with this, but maybe you can.

00;09;18;29 - 00;09;27;19
Wayne Turmel
Well, that like everything else. I mean, you and I were talking earlier. You know, the answer you get depends on the question that you ask.

00;09;27;21 - 00;09;29;09
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, of course.

00;09;29;12 - 00;10;20;03
Wayne Turmel
So if as you are creating orientation materials, if you are creating an employee handbook and you label things as or you tag them as useful for beginners, useful for onboarding, useful for orientation, for somebody who's looking for that will find what they're looking for versus somebody else who's just looking for general information. personalization. What I can do this is both the beauty and the terrifying thing, okay, is the more you use it and the more it knows you, the more it will find what you are looking for or what is useful to you at the beginning.

00;10;20;03 - 00;10;38;21
Wayne Turmel
It's going to be in general, new hires want to know this, right? It's going to be more specific. The machine will learn. Oh, this is Wayne. He's in accounting. He works with these particular clients. And so the searches will get infinitely more granular.

00;10;38;27 - 00;10;40;09
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, that makes sense.

00;10;40;12 - 00;11;12;18
Wayne Turmel
So when they say personalization, it's not. You know, I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave. It's not like that. Right? We're not we're not going there. And if you are under 40 or not a nerd, it's a movie reference. Just stick with us. Well, so what is this personal personalization? That's what it's talking about. The more it interfaces with you and learns who you are, the more it will exclude extraneous information and give you the stuff that is really relevant.

00;11;12;25 - 00;11;22;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, well, it sounds like two from the, basically someone has to set up the stuff ahead of time for the AI to even see it correctly.

00;11;22;28 - 00;11;38;15
Wayne Turmel
Everything is in the setup and where that becomes really important is actually the third thing that, yeah, it came up with, which is 24/7 support, which is all about chat bots.

00;11;38;18 - 00;11;39;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;11;39;23 - 00;11;57;06
Wayne Turmel
And you know, your boss is not always going to be available to you when you need them. you know, the person you're asking may be in Singapore and when you're starting your day, they're going to bed. I mean, there's realistic we need information when we need it.

00;11;57;08 - 00;12;20;09
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? And we know how powerful chat bots can be anyway. I know that we have one on the desk site right now. so just personality testing.com. And for those of you who have heard us talk about this before, like our support team is two people and we have to sleep sometime. so the chat bots been really helpful because we've put stuff into it to say, here's how we say this.

00;12;20;09 - 00;12;29;16
Marisa Eikenberry
Here's all these videos, here's all these transcripts. So it's learning off of us, and it can answer a lot of these questions that we're asleep and can't answer it right now.

00;12;29;16 - 00;13;00;04
Wayne Turmel
Well, and I just came back from a conference of HR and learning technology and oh my gosh, like, even since last year's ATD conference, which is the last time I walked in Expo floor and saw this stuff, they are so much more sophisticated and personalized and you can set the level of formality. You know, do you want it's super friendly and chatty or do you want, you know, give me the facts and give me what I'm looking for.

00;13;00;06 - 00;13;22;27
Wayne Turmel
And incredibly sophisticated and deep searches and the ability to figure out what you meant to say, which is not, you know, if you go into Google right now, if you go into Google and you say, I want to know this, and I can't think of an example. Yeah, but I want to know this. It will give you exactly what you ask for.

00;13;23;00 - 00;13;26;06
Wayne Turmel
But that may not be what you really want to know.

00;13;26;09 - 00;13;30;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. You're going to call it X. We're actually called something else.

00;13;30;22 - 00;13;46;02
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. If I call it, where is the customer service file for x, y, z customer. And your organization calls it a, service response file.

00;13;46;03 - 00;13;49;22
Marisa Eikenberry


00;13;49;24 - 00;13;51;09
Wayne Turmel
You know, a Google get a.

00;13;51;13 - 00;13;52;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Couple.

00;13;52;06 - 00;14;30;16
Wayne Turmel
Engine is it's going to struggle a little bit to come up with what you need. Whereas what I'll give you a, a non work example because I just stumbled across this and you know some of the people who listen to this know that I write novels in my spare time. And so I was because I've got a book coming out, I was trying to figure out some marketing materials and they and I said, you give me five comparable titles to the Johnny Lycan Werewolf Pi series.

00;14;30;19 - 00;14;31;23
Marisa Eikenberry


00;14;31;25 - 00;14;53;19
Wayne Turmel
And the results were really odd, and they were really kind of uneven. And some were historical fiction and some were this somewhere that So I took a second shot at it. And I said give me comparable titles to the urban fantasy Detective Noir or Johnny Lycan Werewolf Pi series.

00;14;53;26 - 00;14;54;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;14;54;20 - 00;15;07;19
Wayne Turmel
I got exactly the seven. comp titles which were most popular. Most recent. Exactly the list I needed.

00;15;07;22 - 00;15;14;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I mean, we've known for a long. So that's specific. You get it? It helps a lot.

00;15;14;28 - 00;15;22;02
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, but A.I. is getting a lot better at. Oh, I see what you were trying to say.

00;15;22;04 - 00;15;22;14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;15;22;21 - 00;15;25;07
Wayne Turmel
So it's getting better at that.

00;15;25;09 - 00;15;26;20
Marisa Eikenberry
And it's like, oh, human.

00;15;26;20 - 00;15;41;01
Wayne Turmel
It's not that. Well, it's funny because a lot of us look at chat bots as, oh, great, I have to deal with a chat bot because they can't be bothered hiring a human who can actually interact with me.

00;15;41;03 - 00;15;41;28
Marisa Eikenberry
And that's not necessary.

00;15;41;28 - 00;16;00;06
Wayne Turmel
And there is some of that. Yeah. To be fair, to be fair, there is some of that going on. but it it is more than that. You know, having a human to answer your questions is great until you've actually dealt with a human.

00;16;00;08 - 00;16;02;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00;16;02;07 - 00;16;25;18
Wayne Turmel
There is no guarantee you're going to get what you're looking for. and then, of course, the fourth thing was data driven insights, which is right. It will find the if the data is out there, it will find it. And crunch it and give it to you, probably in ways that you don't expect. But that feedback, the accuracy and the speed of that feedback.

00;16;25;21 - 00;16;54;16
Wayne Turmel
And then you can go back and say, tell me more about this is going to be just impressive and huge. which brings us to the last thing that copilot said, which is it's about engagement. AI can create a modern and engaging onboarding experience, making new employees feel valued and accelerating their assimilation into the company culture. And I say,

00;16;54;19 - 00;17;05;21
Marisa Eikenberry
I was going to say this one sounds like we're right. Waving a flag like we're with you of, you know, four. But this one might.

00;17;05;24 - 00;17;17;07
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. It's like, does this help engagement? And I'm still not entirely sure that people's default should be to the machines.

00;17;17;10 - 00;17;19;09
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;17;19;12 - 00;17;43;20
Wayne Turmel
now, some of this may be just cranky old white guy who's saying, well, I'll use it when I need it, and the rest of the time, you know, let me interact with humans. But there is, especially in the onboarding process, which let's not forget, this is what we're talking about here, right? The onboarding process is where the relationships get built.

00;17;43;20 - 00;18;17;18
Wayne Turmel
It's where people decide the level of engagement that they're going to have with their employer and their coworkers and their team. And while there may be people who say, I would rather deal with copilot than Bob because Bob is mean to me in meetings, realistically, I think we need to not default, especially in the very early days, weeks, months of, of a, new hire or bringing people on or orientation.

00;18;17;23 - 00;18;22;23
Wayne Turmel
I think we still need to get them to connect with the people.

00;18;22;25 - 00;18;24;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00;18;24;14 - 00;18;52;27
Wayne Turmel
And and so we need to be really, really leery of that. That's kind of where I'm so. So that was it. We asked, hey, give us five ways I can assist in onboarding. And with all the caveats that we have mentioned. And they are not to be underestimated. Right. There's five ways they can help. Four of the five I don't disagree with.

00;18;52;29 - 00;19;06;21
Wayne Turmel
I think they need to be done thoughtfully. They need to be done intentionally. All of that good stuff. The engagement piece, I don't know, but what else is I going to say?

00;19;06;24 - 00;19;08;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Exactly. Well, and we.

00;19;08;25 - 00;19;17;29
Wayne Turmel
Asked the I. Yeah. It's like if you come to me and say, you know, what do you do with this? I'm going to say, well, let me help you here.

00;19;17;29 - 00;19;18;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;19;18;12 - 00;19;34;17
Wayne Turmel
And who doesn't want Wayne helping them for corn sake? Well, oh, how how. Okay, here's here's something I doesn't do. It's. I don't get snarky. It doesn't do sarcasm worth a darn.

00;19;34;20 - 00;20;00;07
Marisa Eikenberry
I was like, I can't get snarky. It depends on how you run the Gpt3. But but listeners, if you've worked with any sort of onboarding things with AI or if you've seen it in your company or stuff, please let us know, because we would love to hear from you on that. And Wayne, thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for putting this into copilot, because my default is ChatGPT.

00;20;00;09 - 00;20;21;17
Marisa Eikenberry
so but this was a really great conversation. I'm really excited to continue talking more about AI and how it can help with remote work. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to Long-Distance Work Life. For show notes, transcripts, and other resources. Make sure to visit Long Distance Work life.com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes while you're there.

00;20;21;19 - 00;20;36;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Be sure to like and review! This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or suggest another episode or another topic for Wayne and I to tackle in another episode.

00;20;36;25 - 00;20;47;03
Wayne Turmel
And for the record, we like nonviolent, respectful, counter opinions. Don't be afraid to, tell us where you think we're wrong.

00;20;47;06 - 00;21;10;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because we would love to do an episode about that. And in some cases, we may try to change your mind. We'll see. But if you want to know more about how to work with and manage remote teams, please check out the Long Distance Leadership Series, which you can learn more about at Kevin eikenberry.com/l d l s thank you for joining us.

00;21;10;06 - 00;21;17;26
Marisa Eikenberry
And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the seasons get you down. Hey.

00;21;17;28 - 00;21;18;05
Marisa Eikenberry
You.


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:45 AI in Onboarding Overview
01:26 Challenges in Remote Onboarding
03:14 Advantages of Microsoft Copilot
04:31 AI for Time Efficiency
09:00 Personalization with AI
11:12 24/7 Support Through Chatbots
13:22 Data-Driven Insights
16:00 Enhancing Engagement with AI
19:08 Final Thoughts and Listener Feedback

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Long-Distance Leadership Series

If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

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Navigating Return-to-Office Strategies in the U.S. and Europe
Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Navigating Return-to-Office Strategies in the U.S. and Europe

Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel explore the intriguing differences in return-to-office strategies between the U.S. and Europe. Dive into a detailed discussion on why European workers are heading back to their offices at a higher rate compared to their American counterparts. Wayne shares insights from his extensive research and personal anecdotes, shedding light on cultural, geographical, and infrastructural factors that influence these varying approaches. Whether you're a remote worker, a manager in a hybrid environment, or just curious about the future of work, this episode offers valuable perspectives on adapting to post-pandemic work life on both sides of the Atlantic.

Key Takeaways

1. Embrace Flexibility: Companies should consider the diverse needs and contexts of their global workforce when designing work policies.
2. Understand Cultural Differences: Recognizing and respecting cultural differences in work habits can enhance productivity and worker satisfaction.
3. Plan for Long-Term Strategies: Rather than reactive measures, thoughtful, strategic planning for hybrid and remote work can lead to more sustainable business practices.

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;00 - 00;00;18;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long Distance Work, where we help you meet, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marissa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Trammell. Hi, Wayne.

00;00;19;01 - 00;00;20;26
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marissa. How are you?

00;00;20;28 - 00;00;22;05
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00;00;22;08 - 00;00;27;19
Wayne Turmel
I am very well, and I'm actually kind of geeked about the show this week.

00;00;27;21 - 00;00;55;01
Marisa Eikenberry
As you should be. So listeners, we are actually we're talking about Return to Office, which is not the first time that we've ever talked about this before. However, the spin that we're doing today is that we're talking about the differences between how the US handled it and how Europe has handled it or is handling it now. So, Wayne, I want to start off with, by what are the main differences that you've already observed between the U.S. and European countries and how they're handling return to office?

00;00;55;04 - 00;01;08;17
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, it's interesting because you can kind of get stuck in. And Americans in particular are really bad about this, where, you know, if it doesn't center around the Statue of Liberty, it didn't happen right here, right.

00;01;08;17 - 00;01;10;13
Marisa Eikenberry
Eastern time zone or bust. Right?

00;01;10;15 - 00;01;34;02
Wayne Turmel
Right, exactly. And so I've been writing for management issues out of the U.K. for a billion years. It feels like. And I was doing some work for them and some research. And I was fascinated to find that return to office is much more prevalent in Europe and in a lot of other countries. Matter of fact, the US is severely different.

00;01;34;05 - 00;01;55;29
Wayne Turmel
Okay, in the, number of people, just as a rough number, 70% of people in the UK have gone back to predominantly return to office or not in the UK, but in Europe. Okay, going back to 70% return to office basically full time in the US it's more like 50%.

00;01;56;01 - 00;01;56;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;01;57;03 - 00;02;08;18
Wayne Turmel
and we're talking about those obviously who can work remotely, of course. Right. I mean, there was this whole thing everybody went home during Covid. Well, no, it was about a third of the population.

00;02;08;23 - 00;02;10;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. It feels like a lot more people.

00;02;10;18 - 00;02;14;14
Wayne Turmel
It feels like a lot more than that because we hang with who we hang with.

00;02;14;17 - 00;02;14;28
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;02;15;17 - 00;02;33;10
Wayne Turmel
but 70 to 50 is a pretty significant difference. And so I being me, you know, I remember at five, my grandmother actually stopped babysitting me for a while because I wouldn't stop asking why.

00;02;33;12 - 00;02;35;02
Marisa Eikenberry
I could act like I'm surprised.

00;02;35;05 - 00;02;40;00
Wayne Turmel
And I still to this day.

00;02;40;02 - 00;02;45;05
Wayne Turmel
And for those of you listening in audio only, it is a very short face. Oh.

00;02;45;08 - 00;02;46;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00;02;47;00 - 00;02;52;21
Wayne Turmel
So anyway, I started geeking out and going down the rabbit hole and I figured this was a worthy discussion.

00;02;52;23 - 00;03;09;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. So, okay, we've already discussed 70 to 50. Like that's a really big deal. So why is it that Europe seems to be having way more return to office people than we have? I mean, is it just people fighting back and be like, no, I want to work from home? Or is there something else?

00;03;09;28 - 00;03;38;00
Wayne Turmel
No, I think there are. I'm going to say three because I'm doing this off the top of my head, okay? B and there are sub reasons to those three reasons, but there are three things that strike me as most obvious. Number one is that most people in European cities live much closer to where they work. Europeans in general do not commute long distances to go to work.

00;03;38;04 - 00;03;45;04
Wayne Turmel
And by the way, when we talk about the European numbers, there's a giant asterix there that says everywhere but London, right.

00;03;45;04 - 00;03;47;04
Marisa Eikenberry
You and I have talked about this offline.

00;03;47;06 - 00;04;15;24
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Well, we'll we'll talk about why London is the outlier in a moment. But the fact is that most people in Europe do not have the hellish commutes that Americans have. and they are much more willing to use public transportation and all kinds of things. So as a result, the commute isn't as onerous as it is for North Americans.

00;04;15;26 - 00;04;16;16
Marisa Eikenberry
That makes sense.

00;04;16;18 - 00;04;36;21
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, the number one reason Americans give for why do I want flexible with because the traffic is killing me, and getting to work makes me miserable. And grumpy and grumpy before I get there. And by the way, when I was home with Covid, I was saving $5,000 a year. And that's a real number for a lot of people.

00;04;36;26 - 00;04;55;24
Wayne Turmel
So the commute is a big part of that. So the commute comes out of the equation. The second thing, and this is very controversial, and I just talked about this at a conference this week and got some I got some hallelujahs and a lot of uncomfortable squirming in seats.

00;04;56;01 - 00;04;59;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, I can't wait for the podcast comments on this one. Then.

00;04;59;20 - 00;05;32;12
Wayne Turmel
Well, it basically comes down to Americans view hybrid work in particular, and the right to work from home as a perk. Okay, it's a perk. It's something they want. And the reason is Americans in particular do not get a lot of perks in terms of work. That is, if you think about the average European worker, their health care is paid for, their education is essentially paid for or extremely cheap.

00;05;33;07 - 00;05;38;01
Wayne Turmel
there are laws about how many hours you can work and not work much longer.

00;05;38;01 - 00;05;39;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Vacation time, you.

00;05;39;06 - 00;05;52;13
Wayne Turmel
Know, more vacation time. All of those things are if you get them through an American company, you get them through negotiation and then bargaining and threatening to quit and all kinds of stuff. Right?

00;05;52;13 - 00;05;54;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, they aren't inherently there.

00;05;54;07 - 00;06;18;21
Wayne Turmel
So there is. Whereas companies are willing to say, yeah, you know what? We're not going to give you health care or, do any of that other cool stuff. But if you want to work in your jammies a couple of days a week, we're good with that, right? And so that's part of it. Right? and that goes to the fact that the work life balance in Europe is generally better.

00;06;18;21 - 00;06;40;00
Wayne Turmel
People are better at I go to work and I work, and when I leave work, I leave work, and I don't think about it so that they tend to enjoy the time they're there. They take that eight hours and they work, and they get their social contact with their friends, and they work hard and they do their jobs and then it's done.

00;06;40;02 - 00;06;41;17
Marisa Eikenberry
And then they go home and do it all.

00;06;41;17 - 00;06;53;22
Wayne Turmel
Over, and then they go, so, you know, the ability to do that is already there. They don't put the same value on it that American workers have put on it.

00;06;53;25 - 00;06;58;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. We're it's almost like our, our identity and our careers sometimes become our identity in many ways.

00;06;58;18 - 00;07;27;19
Wayne Turmel
Well it does and you know, we can get deeper into that. But the third reason I'm trying to stick to three, because I said I would, I remembered the third reason as we were just talking, which is the infrastructure for working from home doesn't exist in a lot of places. And I noticed this at the beginning of Covid, where it was really problematic getting people in Asia, for example, to work from home.

00;07;27;22 - 00;07;52;19
Wayne Turmel
And then I realized why, if you live in Tokyo, you're living in an apartment the size of my garage with no distinct room to work in. Right? You're trying to cut million dollar sales deals on the end of your bed, and that doesn't really work. And it's the same thing. Housing in Europe, especially in the cities, tends to be smaller apartments.

00;07;52;19 - 00;08;04;23
Wayne Turmel
Even the houses are smaller than we're traditionally used to here in America. And so the idea of having a home office is just physically not possible.

00;08;04;25 - 00;08;05;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, no, that makes for a.

00;08;05;27 - 00;08;06;17
Wayne Turmel
Lot of people.

00;08;06;18 - 00;08;07;22
Marisa Eikenberry
I thought about that.

00;08;07;25 - 00;08;32;08
Wayne Turmel
I hadn't either. This is why we go down rabbit holes. Because we learn stuff right? so if you think about just those three things, right, the, the structure of the commute going to work, isn't that bad. Well, okay. You know, it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. It ceases to become a bargaining chip when you're talking to your boss.

00;08;32;10 - 00;08;53;10
Wayne Turmel
You know, if you don't have a lot of perks, it this has become. And by the way, flexible work is the number one thing people are asking for when they apply for jobs. Yeah. So this is far more important here. There is a value on flexible work that just hasn't caught on in much of the rest of the world.

00;08;53;14 - 00;09;19;15
Wayne Turmel
Well, and then the third thing is, even if I am working from home, can I be as productive? Can I do the same job? And the answer is maybe not. It's not quite as convenient and simple as it is in North America. So those are kind of the obvious things. And there are some really interesting long term impacts on this which we can get to in a moment.

00;09;19;18 - 00;09;22;25
Wayne Turmel
I did mention that the outlier is London.

00;09;22;27 - 00;09;41;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and I did want to go into something robust before you get into London. So and unfortunately I don't have the data with me right this second. But wasn't there something I want to say? Switzerland, maybe Sweden, that it was like work from home was like a protected thing. Like it was like you had a right to work from home.

00;09;41;26 - 00;09;44;22
Marisa Eikenberry
How is that different than some of the other stuff that we're seeing?

00;09;44;25 - 00;10;12;22
Wayne Turmel
Well, what's happening is that as a result of Covid, there was a big rush to codify things like how many hours can your boss expect you to work when you're not in the office? Do the same labor laws that protect you in the workplace. Protect you when you work from home? there was all kinds of that stuff that was kind of rushing to judgment on a lot of that.

00;10;12;22 - 00;10;39;17
Wayne Turmel
And this the countries that you would expect to do that, right. The companies, the countries that put a large value on work as part of the social experiment. Right. Switzerland. Okay, Sweden, the Nordic countries, you would expect that that's where the first of this would come. I think a lot of that has kind of come to nothing, because so relatively few people are taking advantage of it now.

00;10;39;19 - 00;10;39;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Or.

00;10;39;25 - 00;10;55;27
Wayne Turmel
When they do, when they do, they're kind of going along with the stealth work thing, which is going to work for a short period of time. Eventually, people will start running afoul of labor laws and and things, and, you know, somebody will always ruin it for everybody else.

00;10;55;29 - 00;10;59;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Like that happens all the time.

00;10;59;21 - 00;11;17;20
Wayne Turmel
You know, it's important to remember that every law was put in place, and it made sense to the person who wrote it because they were trying to solve a specific problem. Right, right. so it's interesting to see where it's going to shake out.

00;11;17;22 - 00;11;22;13
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And so going back to your thing about London, so how was London different?

00;11;22;16 - 00;11;36;23
Wayne Turmel
London is really expensive and really big. And as a result the commutes are basically London as a work environment is much more like New York or Chicago.

00;11;36;26 - 00;11;37;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;11;37;22 - 00;11;39;24
Wayne Turmel
Than it is Amsterdam or Paris.

00;11;39;26 - 00;11;41;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay, that makes sense.

00;11;42;05 - 00;11;57;10
Wayne Turmel
the problems that you've got with stupid expensive housing and, you know, and you can't even drive your city, your car into the City of London without paying an entry fee every day. It's the only city that has a coverage charge.

00;11;57;12 - 00;11;57;28
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh my gosh.

00;11;58;17 - 00;12;18;06
Wayne Turmel
you know, which again, was instituted to solve a specific problem. But there are unintended consequences to this. But basically, London doesn't fit into the European model. the third reason, which also makes sense in London, is that there are so many international companies headquartered there.

00;12;18;07 - 00;12;18;21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;12;18;21 - 00;12;19;05
Wayne Turmel
That.

00;12;19;08 - 00;12;20;04
Marisa Eikenberry
They're already doing.

00;12;20;10 - 00;12;34;04
Wayne Turmel
More working. Yeah, well, they're doing flexible work in times of hours and and whatever. And if I have to be in the office at 9:00, I don't want to still be there for the 9:00 at night. Call with the team in Singapore.

00;12;34;07 - 00;12;37;16
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. And I don't blame them for that right now.

00;12;37;16 - 00;12;45;26
Wayne Turmel
The impact of all this is really interesting. One of the things is that European cities are already built.

00;12;46;03 - 00;12;46;28
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00;12;47;01 - 00;13;22;07
Wayne Turmel
They've been there a long time. The footprint of the city is what it is, and as a result, there is less, building going on all the time in these places. And the, the if you look at the square footage of business properties available again, it is something like it's a vacancy rate of somewhere between 7 and 10% versus some American cities, and London, where it's getting close to 50.

00;13;22;09 - 00;13;43;16
Wayne Turmel
Like even if there are people in a building, they there may not be people on all floors because businesses have kind of shrunk. And some of that is remote work and people not coming in. Frankly, some of it is automation, and we need less people than we needed ten years ago to do the same job.

00;13;43;17 - 00;13;44;08
Marisa Eikenberry
That makes sense too.

00;13;44;11 - 00;14;02;25
Wayne Turmel
So all of these factors I found absolutely fascinating. and if you are the CEO of a company, if you're thinking about how do we come up with a policy that makes sense? If we are an international company, how do we come up with a policy that makes sense?

00;14;02;28 - 00;14;03;21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;14;03;24 - 00;14;15;16
Wayne Turmel
This is all stuff we have to take into consideration. And one of the things I wanted to do was just bring those facts out there and throw them on the table and go, I don't know what you all are going to do with this, but there you are.

00;14;15;19 - 00;14;31;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? So with all of this, like looking forward, what trends do you predict will emerge in the workplace because of this? Like, do you think that we're going to continue to see more return to office in Europe? Do you think that we're going to stay about the same in the US?

00;14;31;25 - 00;14;53;07
Wayne Turmel
I think we will gradually see a rise in remote work, at least part time. We're going to see a rise in hybrid work, in, in all corners of the world. I think we're going to see that, but it's going to be more gradual. It wasn't like the sudden boom in remote. Right? Right.

00;14;53;10 - 00;14;54;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;14;54;08 - 00;15;22;15
Wayne Turmel
I think we're going to see that. I think we're still seeing attention in North America. And I said this and got more hallelujahs than not the other day when I said, you know, in America, because of this idea of using it as a perk instead of looking at it from the standpoint of the business sense, saying what's best for the business, it's kind of it's not so much a strategy as it is a hostage negotiation.

00;15;22;18 - 00;15;47;25
Wayne Turmel
Okay. Where the where the company says, how much can we make them come into the office before they quit or won't come work for us? And the workers are going, how much can I avoid going into the office and still draw a paycheck? And they've kind of settled on whatever formula two days, three days a week that they've settled on, which is not really sustainable.

00;15;47;25 - 00;15;50;25
Wayne Turmel
And more importantly, it's not strategic.

00;15;50;27 - 00;15;53;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Yeah. There's no rhyme for it.

00;15;53;15 - 00;16;20;00
Wayne Turmel
Well, there's a rhyme and a reason. It's just, you know, it's it's vulgar on poetry, which means nothing to anybody who hasn't read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. But it is poetry, and it is the worst poetry in the universe. So that's really where we are. I think we've hit this compromise and we're kind of dealing with it, and long term it's not going to progress and improve.

00;16;20;12 - 00;16;44;11
Wayne Turmel
until we get strategic about what's going to happen is and somebody actually said this, I can't remember who said it, but it was a quote and it hit all the business papers said this whole return to office remote work, hybrid work thing would just go away. What we need is 20% unemployment, okay? Because then people will be so darn glad to have a job, they'll just shut up and show up.

00;16;44;13 - 00;16;48;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I feel like I've also heard that quote before or something like it.

00;16;49;03 - 00;17;10;09
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So yeah, that's that's where we are. And and I thought this was a worthy discussion. Right. It's like you will there be kind of a growing acceptance of hybrid work when people realize they aren't going to have to spend all day in their 500 square foot flat? Probably.

00;17;10;11 - 00;17;10;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;17;10;26 - 00;17;28;27
Wayne Turmel
Right. will Americans get the hang of it and figure it out? Maybe. but their conversations worth having, and you can't make those decisions without context. Absolutely. So that's what we hope. That's what we hope we did today was give you some context.

00;17;28;29 - 00;17;48;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. And I'll make sure to link to your management issues. article inside of our show notes. So for people who want to read even more about this, it will be there. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life or show notes, transcripts, and other resources. Make sure to visit Long Distance Work-Life dot com.

00;17;48;09 - 00;18;06;21
Marisa Eikenberry
If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or suggest another topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00;18;06;23 - 00;18;08;00
Marisa Eikenberry
We'd love to hear from you.

00;18;08;02 - 00;18;34;14
Wayne Turmel
Well, and one of the things, if you're kind of asking these questions about what's it like leading remotely, how is leading a hybrid team different? We would urge you to take advantage of our open enrollment programs. The long Distance Leadership Series runs a couple of times a year. You can find out more on the Kevin eikenberry.com site. We would love to have you or talk to you about delivering that content inside your organization.

00;18;34;16 - 00;18;36;01
Wayne Turmel
Or it's a bring us home.

00;18;36;04 - 00;19;03;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. And you can learn more about that at Kevin eikenberry.com/ldl s. Thank you so much for joining us, Wayne. Thank you for saving me for a second right there. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let police escort you down. Hey.

00;19;03;20 - 00;19;04;05
Marisa Eikenberry
You.


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
01:34 Statistical Differences
03:09 Culture and Structural Reasons
06:18 Work-Life Balance and Infrastructure
14:15 Future Trends in Work
17:10 Conclusion

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Additional Resources

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Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

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