Guests, Leadership

The CEO’s Guide to Thriving with a Global Remote Team with Anatoliy Labinskiy

Remote leadership comes with its own set of challenges, especially when managing a global team. Anatoliy Labinskiy, CEO of GSM Growth Agency, shares his journey of building a successful remote company from the ground up. In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, Wayne Turmel delves into Anatoliy’s unique approach to fostering productivity, maintaining psychological safety, and navigating the complexities of international hiring. Whether you're leading a team or working remotely, Anatoliy’s strategies offer valuable lessons for thriving in today’s digital work environment.

Key Takeaways

1. Understanding Team Motivations: Anatoliy Labinskiy emphasizes the importance of aligning company goals with individual team members' personal aspirations. By understanding what drives each employee, leaders can foster a more motivated and committed workforce.
2. Flexibility and Accountability: GSM Growth Agency operates without strict schedules, instead focusing on task completion and results. This flexible approach, combined with a commission-based compensation model, ensures that team members are accountable and driven to achieve their goals.
3. Psychological Safety is Crucial: Creating an environment where remote employees feel safe to express concerns and challenges is vital. Anatoliy highlights the role of managers in maintaining psychological safety and supporting their team’s well-being.
4. Data-Driven Management: Using data and KPIs to monitor performance allows leaders to proactively address issues and provide support where needed. This approach helps in maintaining high standards and quickly identifying areas that require attention.
5. Challenges of International Hiring: Managing a global remote team comes with legal and tax complexities. However, the benefits of accessing a diverse talent pool far outweigh these challenges. Anatoliy suggests that focusing on skills and mentality rather than geographic location leads to better hiring decisions.
6. Remote Work Evolution: The landscape of remote work is continually evolving, with companies increasingly adopting global teams. Anatoliy predicts that future regulations will likely adapt to this new reality, making it easier for businesses to operate internationally.

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;17 - 00;00;39;04
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Long Distance Worklife, the podcast where we try to make sense and help you thrive, survive, generally keep the weasels at bay in the world of remote and hybrid work. And today we are going to take a slightly different approach than we often do. And in order to do that, I am going to bring in this week's guest, Anatoly Levinsky.

00;00;39;04 - 00;00;45;00
Wayne Turmel
Anatoly is with GSM growth. Anatoly, how are you, sir?

00;00;45;03 - 00;00;57;25
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah. I'm really great. I'm I'm happy to be here and excited to share my experience. Hopefully there at least one person on list, and then it'll be, like something useful for him.

00;00;57;27 - 00;01;10;18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Exactly. Right. So help us, what is GSM growth? What do you do. And why are you kind of so happy to talk about remote work?

00;01;10;21 - 00;01;49;02
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah, sure. Like basically we are advertise as an agency, GSM Growth Agency, where we are focusing on building advertising ecosystem for the Shopify brand owners by managing the Facebook, TikTok, Google, Snapchat, SMS, email marketing. So building the IC ecosystem machine for the brand owners in terms of advertising, and it's helping to increase long term inventory of of the customers and at the same time protecting if something happens to Facebook or TikTok or Google, other platforms are covering and like keeping going.

00;01;49;09 - 00;02;08;15
Anatoliy Labinskiy
So basically that's the main focus. We are what we are doing. We are doing that, since 2000, 17, in general on my stores, I started and after that, by the beginning of 2020, we opened the agency and done quite successfully in last couple of years, we generated over 33 million for customers in the profitable sales.

00;02;08;18 - 00;02;46;15
Wayne Turmel
So clearly your company works and it works remotely. I know you're in Portugal this morning and you're going to be in Miami tomorrow, and I'm in Las Vegas. And isn't technology wonderful? But let's talk because on this show we usually talk to the individual contributor or the individual line manager. But a lot of organizations are struggling making remote work happen because the CEO isn't either, isn't 100% bought in or doesn't know how to support remote work effectively.

00;02;46;15 - 00;03;04;09
Wayne Turmel
And that's the conversation I'd like to have with you. So why don't we start with, as the CEO of a company, what are the things about remote work specific that you are most concerned about?

00;03;04;10 - 00;03;43;00
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah, sure. I would say like definitely remote work. We are like, we work on the top, quantity. It was 44 team members. Now we are around 35. And basically the main thing was for, understanding how to manage them, how to make sure that they are doing the work during the, like the remote, remote stay in remote year, like how to understand that they are not going to the refrigerator or watching Netflix and instead of doing the, specific, tasks and, we create the system, like, I create the system.

00;03;43;00 - 00;04;06;24
Anatoliy Labinskiy
At the beginning, when I had no managers, I had a couple of employers. And we start growing so fast in 2020 that I start, actually giving opportunities to the average worker to become a manager. And this is where we start growing as a company, and we start building the management system. Number one thing, which is, I believe on the remote work, very important is understanding what actually your team mates want.

00;04;07;01 - 00;04;25;17
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Like I was doing mistake in the first half of the year. I was always sharing my vision. I'm with the CEO, I'm the founder, I have a vision where I want to bring the company, I know my why and I'm just sharing that why and that vision with my team. You know what? They agreed. But it doesn't mean that they agreed.

00;04;25;17 - 00;04;29;18
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Actually, they agreed because I'm paying them for, you know, so of course they will do.

00;04;29;21 - 00;04;32;12
Wayne Turmel
The job is smiling not at the boss.

00;04;32;12 - 00;04;53;23
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Right, exactly. But after that, I decided to make the difference. And I started speaking to the top management. And like, guys, what's important for you? Where you want to be in couple of years? How you want to use the GSM to achieve your own goals. What's your actual goals? And this is where was the game changer in terms of management, the team.

00;04;53;23 - 00;05;19;28
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Because when they start understanding what they want, we start moving forward to implement our possible, features in the company to achieve their goals. And by that being said, I start always using one quote. I use the GSM as a tool to achieve your own goals, and GSM will be great as well because if they tune their own goals means just how much you in their it's own as well.

00;05;20;00 - 00;05;42;04
Anatoliy Labinskiy
So basically it create extreme ownership for each individual person on that side of the phone, on that side of the zoom, from from the management side of implementing the things which need to be implemented and need to be done. And basically they motivated to train the other team members to make sure that they will achieve results, whatever it takes.

00;05;42;06 - 00;06;01;24
Wayne Turmel
Okay. I'm going to stop you there. it clearly ownership is an important piece of this. Can you give me a specific example of something where your vision or what you wanted differed from what another person wanted and how you worked through that?

00;06;01;26 - 00;06;23;13
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah, sure. It's not about human difference because, especially at the first years. Yeah. The first couple of years of the company, everyone had quite similar, targets, which is what financial targets to achieve. And basically, for me, I was creating the company without the basics. So it is all in the commission's. Why one of the part because it I was a startup.

00;06;23;13 - 00;06;42;20
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Secondly, because it's a remote work. I don't want to pay anyone basics because I don't want what you I don't want like running behind him and asking, have you done that? Have you done that? He has a commission base. Every single team members have the commission base income. So if, he wants to get money this month, he need to complete the task.

00;06;42;22 - 00;07;00;20
Anatoliy Labinskiy
It's that simple. We don't have, like, 9 to 5. We don't have 2 to 12. We don't have that. We have like, hey, like, this is the task. So it has to be done in one hour. It has to be done before I know the day before the end of the week and the tasks are done because like if it's not done, there is a questions what's happen?

00;07;00;22 - 00;07;26;19
Anatoliy Labinskiy
And basically like we create the financial matrix where we seen all those, like metrics and create the KPIs to the metrics of achievements of every single media buyer, every single salesperson manager. And after that, when we see that somewhere the numbers are going slightly down from the the record requirements, we can understand that something emotionally, mentally could be wrong or just person quit or whatever.

00;07;26;21 - 00;07;43;10
Anatoliy Labinskiy
And that's why we start working on the psychological part, which is we really care. We start our management, start, reaching out instantly when they see that, okay, in the last couple of days, metrics are down. What's happening? They reaching out and asking, hey, like, is everything okay? You know.

00;07;43;16 - 00;08;16;15
Wayne Turmel
So I you said a couple of things there that I think we need to we need to make sure that we address. One of them is just systematic, the notion of and whether somebody is on base plus commission or whatever or whatever the metrics are based on outcomes, they're not based on behavior, right? Whether somebody spends 12 hours a day at their keyboard or five hours a day, it's measured by output, right?

00;08;16;15 - 00;08;43;28
Wayne Turmel
It's measured by did you make the sales or the deals being closed, whatever that defining the metrics is really important. The second thing is less systemic, and you kind of glossed over it, but I think it's important. And that is the notion of the psychological safety and managers having their radar up to know that something is up.

00;08;44;01 - 00;09;07;06
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah. the that's like that's kind of right there. Because before last one and half, two years, we were running without those metrics. I had my own Excel sheets and I was completely understanding what is happening. But, you know, when you start growing and we start getting like, 20, 40 clients plus I cannot be in every single case instantly.

00;09;07;11 - 00;09;33;01
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Like, we have weekly trainings, weekly calls going through the cases and basically like, building these structures with our CMO or with our, like, management and understanding where it will go. But I cannot be in every single chart. I cannot be everywhere. which just means like we need simplicity of understanding where we are right now and basically what this kind of financial model helps you understand.

00;09;33;01 - 00;09;52;19
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Like, in general manager, in his team. What's happening in there? Then you can look every single team member, his numbers, and then every single team members. You can look on his list of the clients to understand where exactly he sucks. So yeah, if it's going in average, everywhere bad or like in average all good to no questions.

00;09;52;19 - 00;10;18;06
Anatoliy Labinskiy
So just pushing forward data performance giving some kind of bonuses, giving them some kind of, challenges. This is perfect thing in the remote challenges. like monthly challenge, the weekly challenge we can challenge, like whatever it is. And basically they it make fun and to deliver better results. But when things are really bad now we can see that before we were guessing like, hey, like what's happening?

00;10;18;06 - 00;10;36;10
Anatoliy Labinskiy
The client is wrong. You know, there is always excuses on the remote and not even the remote in the office. Yeah, that is the client. Oh, do not you know that this is what's happened? He's not replying. But but it's. And when we see the metrics we directly like and address like what's happening, like we, manager check the team chats, the chats are okay.

00;10;36;16 - 00;11;02;26
Anatoliy Labinskiy
And then after that, we find out his mother in the hospital. He broke up with the girlfriend. He just moving from one apartment to another. And that's why, like, we keep an emotional statement between the management and the team players in the way where they trust in and respect in the management and if anything happening, they try to address instantly or if something sensitive as a mother in the hospital or break especially.

00;11;02;29 - 00;11;30;28
Anatoliy Labinskiy
But each of the relationships is kind of sensitive, which they're like, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm fine. But at the end, yeah. You know, I just broke like, relationship of two years, couple of days ago. Oh, okay. And manager start speaking as a human to human, not about the work. Helping him to overtake the depression. Not because, like, we need him at work, obviously, we need, but because, like, we respect their life and we want to help them to become better.

00;11;31;03 - 00;11;50;22
Anatoliy Labinskiy
And that's usually helping. And the guys only mode, they are, well, you know, we are lonely. It's online world. We are alone. Everyone sitting in their offices, cabinets, rooms and like, nobody speaks. And here is someone from another part of the world and saying to yourself and then like, asking you questions and giving you suggestions, it means a lot.

00;11;50;25 - 00;12;13;22
Anatoliy Labinskiy
It's really means a lot that someone cares. And sometimes even, you know, like, when new team member coming to us, we even can the, like, send some gift, some, like, a video from my site welcoming and so on to just let person understanding that we are a team. Doesn't matter if you don't have office. We are just like next to you.

00;12;13;22 - 00;12;15;14
Anatoliy Labinskiy
We are here to be with you.

00;12;15;15 - 00;12;22;08
Wayne Turmel
Couple of. And again, you're drawing so many things out. I'm trying desperately to capture.

00;12;22;08 - 00;12;25;14
Anatoliy Labinskiy
The short sorry.

00;12;25;16 - 00;12;46;27
Wayne Turmel
I'm trying to make sure that we we capture some nuts and bolts that that folks can listen to you. And there's a couple of things in that last piece. the first is what is the sweet spot for remote control for remote employees? How many direct reports do your managers have?

00;12;47;00 - 00;13;11;02
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah. I would say, first of all, the sweet spot is the flexibility. when I said that we don't have a schedule first three years, we didn't have the day off. We didn't have days off. So the team has been built on my personal, mentality and basically, of course, everyone getting rest. But if something happened, even for 2 a.m., they were waking up and doing whatever need to be done.

00;13;11;09 - 00;13;40;01
Anatoliy Labinskiy
So basically what I want to say that, what's affect a lot on the, on the implementing and moving forward with our rules, our company rules, is that we giving you flexibility. You have a laptop, and you, you're supposed to be on time on the course. You're supposed to be, take the, action fast. And our teammates travel in Mexico, Dubai, Bali, Poland, Ukraine, the United States.

00;13;40;05 - 00;13;41;22
Wayne Turmel
Okay, but the question.

00;13;41;25 - 00;13;43;00
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Is your lifestyle.

00;13;43;03 - 00;14;02;00
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, okay. And that's fabulous, right? Is flexible lifestyle. So 9 to 5 is an option. First of all, because 9 to 5 doesn't matter when you're around the world. But how many direct reports does each manager have? What have you found to be a good number for that.

00;14;02;00 - 00;14;29;19
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah. So, like, every single manager has approximately 5 to 7 teammates under their, each individual team, plus, like our sales department before was 15 people. It was hard to manage people, and it wasn't hard to manage. It was hard to manage to find out the right people. So we are staying for last two and half years with five people in the sales team, and it's freaking sick team because they already know well the product.

00;14;29;24 - 00;14;53;22
Anatoliy Labinskiy
They love the company and they sustainable. Nobody got fired them because they are delivering nobody like leaving us because nobody wants to leave our company since like all the benefits we should provide. And so basically in average, if you look on every single department, it's 5 to 7 teammates under. And those teammates has their own juniors. Usually it's one so like that.

00;14;53;28 - 00;15;11;25
Anatoliy Labinskiy
So that's like how it works in the in the PR department. It's direct reporting to me. And Valeria for you were introduced to and like, there you are. She has a couple of the teammates who she is managing to make sure that the work is moving forward. So basically up to seven, 1 to 7.

00;15;11;26 - 00;15;16;26
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I like that 5 to 7 number. I think that's a manageable number.

00;15;16;27 - 00;15;19;14
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Where it was exactly created for the.

00;15;19;17 - 00;15;51;22
Wayne Turmel
People don't disappear. Right. Yeah. They they don't fall off the radar. The other thing is because you're working internationally and this is just, a functional thing, do you find challenges hiring people remotely in different countries? Have you had to decide not to hire somebody because they're in a geography or, you know, how do you handle the international aspect while making sure that you're obeying the laws and, you know, all that good stuff?

00;15;51;29 - 00;16;18;20
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Oh, about the laws and taxes and so on. It was the biggest headaches. It was a really huge headache because we are American company and like it was quite a bit to understand how to make all the payouts right and so on. But, I would say the best talent, talented are around the world, like, really? Or even like I have friends who has physical offices, agencies in the United States, in Nashville, in Atlanta.

00;16;18;26 - 00;16;43;05
Anatoliy Labinskiy
But they have troubles to find out in Atlanta, the right talent in the Nashville, the right talent. So and they start hiring as well, remotely because, like, somewhere in Serbia is the perfect, like technical worker or something like that. And basically on my end, like, I'm Ukrainian and I have around 60, 70% of my teammates are Ukrainian and they're in different parts of the world, but they're in general Ukrainians.

00;16;43;07 - 00;17;07;10
Anatoliy Labinskiy
And like, we have as well Serbian. We have Sweden, we have, Argentina, Spain. So different, different countries, different, locations. And by that being said, we are not choosing what country he's in. We are choosing what skills does he have and if he is really good, has the right mentality because he has the best skills in the world.

00;17;07;10 - 00;17;30;08
Anatoliy Labinskiy
But the mentality, here in Boston, like, I will be teaching you what you mean and so on. So that person definitely won't be working with us in the company. So the right mentality, the right skills and doesn't matter what, geographical location he's in, we have from Pakistan, our, design, video editor designer in, Moldova right now.

00;17;30;11 - 00;17;58;17
Anatoliy Labinskiy
So like different countries. So there is no specific, location because we have like, you would know, call schedules according to the word wild. word wild. timing. Only one media buyer who moved to Bali. He is suffering a bit because he's 13 hours away from us. the like he has to switch a bit. This his schedule, but he want to live in Bali for some time, and it's his choice.

00;17;58;17 - 00;18;24;17
Wayne Turmel
Are you finding that the. This is the last question, because, not surprisingly, our time has fled. are you finding that it's easier to overcome the taxes work visas thing? As time goes by, our countries becoming more consistent and kind of lenient with that? Or what do you what do you find it?

00;18;24;20 - 00;18;46;21
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Yeah. So the work visa is not required because, like the all the guys are working on the remote like in every single company on remote, it's w eight form. So it's like third party contractors or they have their own LLCs. So it's like, against third party contractor, but with the, limited liability company, not not with the, person itself.

00;18;46;24 - 00;19;21;11
Anatoliy Labinskiy
And regarding the taxes. Yeah. Like we have just to follow all the, like, everything what is required from our site, according to the country where we are, according to the, all the, the requirements of the IRS and, basically, like, I can say that it's going smooth, but I believe that it's supposed to be soon in the near future, maybe next five, ten, 20 years, that it will be something like a word while the regulations because like the word is never be, will be as before.

00;19;21;11 - 00;19;58;27
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Never like all the companies are like worldwide right now because like you, it's mind blowing. When zoom became huge because of Covid, pure culture companies really is not about the remote work because some companies like this one India, some huge company companies, they need to be offline, but still they find out so many great talents from different countries quite easier, and they don't need to move them to us somewhere else and work in, open work and visa and so on by figure it out that it's possible to manage on the remote specific team members, even if you need to be offline.

00;19;59;00 - 00;20;33;12
Anatoliy Labinskiy
So what, like one of my friends in the huge agency, their turnover is like billions of dollars every single year in the cloud. Customers results. they are like hiring offline, online and, the top players online from remote. They bring once in a year to United States for the like gathering for brainstorming and so on. So basically they and they call in the abroad to a person who where they hired in him, like let's say in Serbia, in London, London guys hired in Serbia, hired in Spain hiring someone else.

00;20;33;12 - 00;20;51;17
Anatoliy Labinskiy
And they call in that as a London department. So basically you it's it sounds fancy, but it isn't. It's just the guy sitting in London, and now it's like, x, y is that agency in London? So it sounds cool. It's a matter of like, this is this is the real world in our these.

00;20;51;20 - 00;21;16;00
Wayne Turmel
Well, it is the real world in our days. And the Anatoliy Lipinski from GSM, I want to thank you for giving me the CEOs vision of this. Right. What's going through their mind? Because, nothing works if it's not supported from the top. And you've given us some really good insight to that. Thank you so much for being with us today.

00;21;16;01 - 00;21;28;13
Anatoliy Labinskiy
Thank you. Thank you again for having me here. And, if anyone has any questions or would like to reach out, you can easily text me in the Instagram Ecom by Anatoly. I'm always answering unknown DMs from my site.

00;21;28;17 - 00;21;55;09
Wayne Turmel
Well, and we will. In fact have links to Anatoly and GSM and, all of that good stuff on our website. The long distance work life.com. We have transcripts for each show. We have past episodes. So, do check that out. Of course. next week, Marissa will be back. We will have one of our own shows if you want to reach out with us.

00;21;55;16 - 00;22;22;12
Wayne Turmel
To us with a question, a comment, a vicious personal attack, a show subject or somebody that we should talk to. just reach out to us on either LinkedIn or email. we love to have you with us. Couple of things we want to let you know, as of late September, we will have the second edition of our book, The Long Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership.

00;22;22;20 - 00;22;51;21
Wayne Turmel
The second edition, updated for remote and hybrid work, is available end of September. It's actually available for preorder now. And if you would like to, learn some more skills to be a better remote later, please check out our long distance leadership series. It's on. Kevin, I can bury.com under virtual events. we would love to have you join us for now.

00;22;51;21 - 00;23;14;05
Wayne Turmel
That's it. Thank you to Anatoly for, being with us. join us next week. Listen to our past episodes. I am not going to insult your intelligence by telling you to smash the like button, but if you want to push it gently and let everybody know that you like the show and subscribe, we would appreciate that. That's it.

00;23;14;05 - 00;23;23;12
Wayne Turmel
My name is Wayne Trammell. Thank you for joining us on the Long Distance Work Life podcast. And don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.


Featured Guest

Anatoliy Labinskiy

Name: Anatoliy Labinskiy

Bio: Anatoliy Labinskiy is the CEO and founder of GSM Growth Agency, where he leads a fully remote team to build successful marketing ecosystems for Shopify brands, generating over $33 million in profitable sales. With a strong background in eCommerce and digital marketing, Anatoliy is known for his innovative approach to remote leadership and his focus on flexibility and accountability in the workplace.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
01:10 Overview of GSM Growth Agency and its Focus
02:46 Challenges of Managing a Remote Team
04:06 Aligning Company Goals with Employee Aspirations
05:20 Building Accountability Through Flexibility and Commission-Based Pay
08:44 Importance of Psychological Safety in Remote Teams
09:43 Using Data and KPIs to Monitor and Improve Performance
13:11 Flexibility and Managing Remote Teams Across Time Zones
14:02 Optimal Number of Direct Reports for Effective Management
15:51 Challenges of International Hiring and Legal Considerations
18:24 Managing Taxes and Legalities for a Global Remote Team
19:21 The Future of Remote Work and Global Regulations
20:51 Final Thoughts on Supporting Remote Work from the Top

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

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Read More
Cracking the Code of Workplace Culture with Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Guests, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Cracking the Code of Workplace Culture with Dr. Jessica Kriegel

In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, Wayne Turmel sits down with Dr. Jessica Kriegel, Chief Scientist of Workplace Culture at Culture Partners, to explore the true essence of workplace culture. Dr. Kriegel challenges the common misconceptions that culture is all about perks like ping-pong tables, explaining instead how an adaptive culture—one that evolves with changing circumstances—is crucial for driving results. They discuss the pitfalls of trying to return to pre-pandemic office norms and why forward-thinking leadership that embraces the new realities of remote and hybrid work is essential for organizational success.

Key Takeaways

1. Understanding Culture: It’s not just “how we do things here” but a strategic tool to achieve organizational goals.
2. Adaptive Culture: The most successful organizations are those that can adapt to change, as demonstrated by research.
3. Post-Pandemic Work: The idea of “returning” to the office is flawed; instead, companies should focus on evolving.
4. Creating Impactful Experiences: Culture is shaped by the experiences we create, whether in-person or virtual.

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;03 - 00;00;34;01
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome. Welcome to the long distance work life. My name is Wayne Trammell. I am thrilled to be with you. This is the podcast to help you thrive. Survive, generally. Keep the weasels at bay in the crazy and constantly evolving world of remote and hybrid work. we have a really, really good show today. We are going.

00;00;34;04 - 00;00;58;09
Wayne Turmel
We sadly do not have Marissa with us, but what that means is we get to meet somebody else. Really cool. And in this case, that person, I say bringing her into the room is Jessica Kriegel, who is the brains behind Culture Partners and Jessica. who are you and what does culture Partners do? And then we'll get into our conversation.

00;00;58;12 - 00;01;19;18
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Well, thank you for having me. I am Doctor Jessica Kriegel. I'm the chief scientist of workplace culture at Culture Partners and Culture Partners. As a workplace culture consulting firm that is focused on helping organizations drive results. That's what we do. We help companies get the results that they're trying to achieve. And the way that we go about doing that is through activating their culture.

00;01;19;20 - 00;01;44;23
Wayne Turmel
Okay, so there are about four things that you said there that worthy of diving in. And I'm going to start with the one that kind of catches people off guard, which is the idea that you are the culture scientist. Yes. Other than working for Dannon yogurt, I do not know that I have ever met a culture scientist before, so what the heck you want?

00;01;44;24 - 00;01;51;18
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
I have not heard the yogurt metaphor or analogy to my title before. That's a good one.

00;01;51;21 - 00;01;54;10
Wayne Turmel
so what the heck does a culture scientist do?

00;01;54;11 - 00;02;20;06
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
He asks. Yeah. I mean, my job is to research best practices in what gets results and culture is, you know, let's start there. Because so many people view culture as something that's touchy feely or woowoo and ultimately it's deeply misunderstood because people are trying to solve culture issues with ping pong tables and virtual pizza parties, and those things are fun.

00;02;20;06 - 00;02;43;02
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Maybe if you like those things, but they're not culture. We view culture as the way that people think and act to get results. So as a scientist of culture, my job is to understand how do we get people to think and act in the way that we need them to think and act in order to get results? That works for them and works for the company over the long term.

00;02;43;05 - 00;02;57;27
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of definitions of culture. The one that I usually work with is this is how we do it here, right? Right. And how we do it somewhere else, which is different than somebody else does it. But what is the it.

00;02;58;00 - 00;03;18;21
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Right. The reason this is how we do it here is I don't know how to scale. This is how we do it here or how to shift. This is how we do it here. That gets us pretty stuck into one kind of culture. And we did research last year with Stanford University to help finish answering that question about how do we actually do the research?

00;03;18;25 - 00;03;49;10
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
We partner with academic institutions and other organizations that are interested in this stuff. And last year with Stanford, we looked at what of all the different culture dimensions, which one actually wins to drive revenue growth? Just very simply, revenue growth is the focus in that particular study to show the results, orientation of this impact of this work. And what we found was an adaptive culture, was the kind of culture that always won the most for far above all other type of cultures.

00;03;49;16 - 00;04;10;05
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
So an adaptive culture is not getting stuck in one culture. It's about being able to shift from one to the next and the next and pivoting when technology changes, when our circumstances change, when our competitive environment changes, that that is actually the skill is is not just choosing one and getting stuck in the way we do things around here.

00;04;10;05 - 00;04;13;00
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
That can be a death knell for your culture.

00;04;13;02 - 00;04;44;00
Wayne Turmel
Well, that, of course, leads us to the next thing, which is the big push back after Covid. Yeah, everybody got scattered to the winds and then they said, no, you're coming back in. And we're hearing more and more even from companies where you maybe don't expect it, like zoom, zoom, Google. In fact, the zoom is calling people into the office just drips with an irony that does not even begin to be described.

00;04;44;03 - 00;05;06;24
Wayne Turmel
but the reason for that over and over and over again, we're told, is, well, we need to keep the company culture. And the only way to do that is to have people in the same building at the same time, at least part of the time. And I'm willing to bet that you probably view it differently.

00;05;06;26 - 00;05;31;06
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Yeah. so think about the language that leaders are using to get people back to the office. Back right. Or we need to return to the office return. These are all backwards looking phrases that we need to use to go back to how it was before Covid. And for some organizations, they've been remote for a long time. I was an Oracle for ten years.

00;05;31;06 - 00;05;55;13
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
I started in 2008 and I was working remotely. So this isn't just a Covid thing. This has been a slow transition that got accelerated due to Covid, but we cannot go back because to go back and to return to this way that it used to be inherent in that is the idea that Covid was simply a pause and that the pause has been unpause.

00;05;55;18 - 00;06;19;12
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
And now we can go back to how it was before, as if Covid wasn't transformational to our social psychology, to the norms and behaviors of how we operate. We saw a different way. And you can't go back. You can't undo do this complete transformation of everything about the way that we work. Now. Some people will go back into the office because that's what they want to do, and they like it that way, and that's fine.

00;06;19;14 - 00;06;38;13
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
But I think that those companies are failing to adapt. And I just told you that the culture that wins and gets the most results is the culture that can adapt and move forward. And if you're stuck and trying to go back, you're not working on that fundamental progress that needs to happen in any organization to innovate and grow.

00;06;38;15 - 00;06;51;19
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, it's so funny. People misquote Darwin all the time. They always say it's survival of the fittest and it's not. It's the creature that learns to adapt is what survives. Right?

00;06;51;22 - 00;06;53;25
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Did he really not say survival of the fittest?

00;06;53;25 - 00;06;56;10
Wayne Turmel
He did not. He never used that phrase.

00;06;56;12 - 00;06;58;27
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Wow. Who said that? Was it the. Who's the other.

00;06;58;27 - 00;07;00;25
Wayne Turmel
Somebody that read him in the market?

00;07;00;25 - 00;07;06;05
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
It was that other guy that also did evolution. Anyway, we're on a tangent, but that's fascinating. I gotta go double check that.

00;07;06;05 - 00;07;22;07
Wayne Turmel
If that's when you get a couple of geeks together. This is the kind of conversation that you wind up having. Ladies, we can't go back to the before times and we can't write clearly the big concern, the thing that we hear is we're worried about culture and and.

00;07;22;10 - 00;07;25;27
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Losing, you know, losing our culture. Have you heard.

00;07;25;28 - 00;07;33;22
Wayne Turmel
Losing our culture like the before times was some glorious time where there were no problems and everything worked just fine?

00;07;33;24 - 00;07;35;02
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Yeah.

00;07;35;05 - 00;07;36;03
Wayne Turmel
Yeah.

00;07;36;05 - 00;07;57;12
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
I mean, like, where did the culture go? If we're losing it? I would love to know the island of lost cultures, you know? I mean, that doesn't even make any sense. So yes, the, the, the saying goes that if we don't get back to our together, we're going to lose our culture. What makes us who we are. And the reality is of cultures, the way that people think and act to get results.

00;07;57;17 - 00;08;18;22
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Well, we're still thinking virtually and we're still acting virtually. So let me break down what we think culture really comes down to where it emerges and what it results in. So, you know, every company is trying to get results. Where do results come from? They come from our actions. We do stuff and that stuff produces a result right?

00;08;18;24 - 00;08;42;07
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Our actions come from our beliefs. We have beliefs about the nature of the work we're doing, about what drives meaning in our lives, about whether it's worth it about each other. Right? Those beliefs are what drive our actions, and that is how we think. And so if you want to change how people think, their beliefs and their actions, then you have to create experiences for them.

00;08;42;07 - 00;09;01;22
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Because all of our beliefs come from experiences that we've had. Why do I believe that you're a nice guy? It's because of the experience we had in our email exchanges and in the conversations we've had. Those experiences led me to a belief that took me to take an action, which is to join you today, and that's going to get you a result, which is an episode that people will listen to right now.

00;09;01;29 - 00;09;22;17
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
And the episode that result is an experience, too, that they're having that will lead them to a belief about the nature and power of working from home and culture or not. Right. And that's going to lead them to take an action and that's going to get a result. And so it's the cycle. That's culture. So it really if you want to influence culture, you start at the experience level.

00;09;22;17 - 00;09;42;09
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
What experiences can I create for people. And virtually getting an email is an experience. Getting a text message is an experience. Having a zoom call is an experience. Just like bumping into someone in the hallway was an experience. Having lunch at the cafeteria was an experience. But the experiences don't stop just because we're doing it in a different format.

00;09;42;12 - 00;10;02;11
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
And the kindness that you show me in those virtual experiences lead to a belief, or the bitterness, or the short nature of your emails or texts or whatever, all of that. We just have to be intentional of the experiences we create, no matter what the delivery mechanism of that experience is.

00;10;02;13 - 00;10;26;25
Wayne Turmel
Okay, so before you continue, because I know we pulled the string in your back and and you're off and that's great. We dig that. But you said something that I think we need to highlight and that is this notion of experience. And there are two parts to this. The first is if your experience with somebody is purely transactional.

00;10;26;27 - 00;10;40;03
Wayne Turmel
Hey, can you send me that file? Here it is. If their experience is purely transactional, it's not going to create a bond, a relationship, a psychological emotional connection.

00;10;40;05 - 00;10;40;24
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Exactly.

00;10;40;25 - 00;11;11;03
Wayne Turmel
They have with people. Right. So we need to crank that up and have different types of experiences. But let's talk about the word experi sense. what do we need to be aware of? What kind of experiences? Virtually do we need to do that maybe used to happen organically, or at least unconsciously, when we were all in the same mosh pit.

00;11;11;05 - 00;11;38;13
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
It's all about coming from the heart in the experiences that you create and doing it, doing it intentionally. So some examples of experiences that happen virtually is me calling you and recognizing you for something that you've done, giving you feedback, either positive feedback or constructive feedback about some thing that happened. Telling you a story about something that you weren't even involved in that someone else did that was really wonderful.

00;11;38;19 - 00;12;01;06
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
That's an experience. Last night, you know, I got this big interview this week for my show, and I was really proud of it, and I did a lot of work to make it go well. And last night my boss called me he that the show got released yesterday and he called me and said, I just listened to the interview and I took notes and I want to share them with you.

00;12;01;06 - 00;12;25;24
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
And he spent 20 minutes basically reading me his notes about all of his favorite parts and why that was powerful and what he thought was a good question. And it was all positive feedback. And at the end he was like, so that's what I thought the the time and attention and thoughtfulness that he took to give me that feedback was so impactful because it was an experience that like, wow, he really cares about the work that I do.

00;12;25;27 - 00;12;44;25
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
He could have just as easily sent a text that said, great interview, exclamation point, exclamation point, and I would have felt good, but it didn't go the extra mile that he took. Both of them were virtual, right? But it's about coming from the heart and giving someone an experience in the way you communicate with them.

00;12;44;28 - 00;13;00;25
Wayne Turmel
And you said something again, you know, there are micro cultures and macro cultures. There's micro culture of your specific team. There's the macro culture of your organization. This simple way to kind of divide it.

00;13;00;27 - 00;13;01;07
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Yeah.

00;13;01;14 - 00;13;34;00
Wayne Turmel
My experience and maybe you can speak to this. My experience is it is fairly easy for an individual team to intentionally form a culture. The nuclear team is very much like the nuclear family, right? There's mom, dad and the kids. Yeah, and they're a tight unit. But inside the larger organization, the interactions don't always happen virtually. They don't experience each other the way they do when they share an office space and they're bumping into people.

00;13;34;02 - 00;13;50;12
Wayne Turmel
So can you. We'll just step aside from the micro culture for a moment. How do you intentionally or what kind of experiences can you create to help influence the macro culture, as opposed to just your particular team?

00;13;50;14 - 00;14;19;17
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Yeah, that's a great question. And that's really what we do with our clients. So, you know, most culture consultants, they go into a company and they start by digging up all of the dirt. So they interview people and they do focus groups and they do surveys. And they're asking what's broken here, what doesn't work? And then they come up with a list of 20 things that they found, and then they present this list to the executives and say, well, here's everything that's broken that needs to be fixed, and we can do that for you for the low, low price of $5 million or whatever it is.

00;14;19;17 - 00;14;42;26
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Right. And so we don't do that. We start with, what result do you want to achieve? What is the goal? Give me a key result. We call them, which is a meaningful, measurable, memorable number that you want to achieve. And then let's reverse engineer that number to figure out what beliefs people need to hold in order to take the right action to get that result.

00;14;42;29 - 00;15;12;25
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
And once you understand those beliefs and you're really explicit about them, you label them and you identify what they mean. Then you intentionally create experiences across all levels of the organization to drive those beliefs. So, for example, at Culture Partners, we have a cultural belief of taking accountability. That's one belief we know needs to be held in order for people to take the right action for us to get our result, which is we want to impact 5 million lives in 2025.

00;15;12;25 - 00;15;40;01
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
It's a measurable number. It's meaningful and it's memorable 5 in 25. So we know people need to take accountability. So we recognize when people do take accountability and we give feedback to people when they're not taking accountability. And we tell stories about taking accountability and always tying what the action was that they did to that belief of taking accountability and reinforcing that that's going to help us get to five and 25.

00;15;40;04 - 00;16;05;21
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
So we're being explicit in our language about the things that are usually implicit. Whereas usually feedback looks like great job on that presentation here. He says. In this presentation you did x, y, and Z. By doing that, you demonstrated the belief of take accountability, and that's going to help us get to five and 25. And so it's a self reinforcing system that we help organizations implement at the macro level.

00;16;05;27 - 00;16;15;05
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
And everyone owns culture in that way because everyone is responsible to use the tools to reinforce the explicit cultural beliefs to get the results.

00;16;15;07 - 00;16;35;19
Wayne Turmel
Okay. Can you give me a I'm sure you can. Will you give me a specific example of something that an organization did to kind of expand that across divisions, across functions, something very specific?

00;16;35;22 - 00;17;00;26
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Yes. We are working with a medical institution. And this, the client was the director of the emergency department. And there we said, what's the result? You want it? We always start with results. Right? And they said, we only gather next of kin information for incoming patients 42% of the time. We need to collect it every time. So we looked at the action was people were not filling out the form.

00;17;00;26 - 00;17;24;13
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
So she had tried already to fix that number. Through a bunch of actions, she would try translating the form, simplifying the form, training people on the form. She'd actually spent six months on this, and after six months, she was able to increase the gathering of the form to 47%, which is like 5% growth barely moved the needle. Six months of effort shifting the shift schedule to get people out of work to do the training.

00;17;24;13 - 00;17;42;01
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
It was a laborious project and it cost money and it barely worked. So the belief we were like, what's the belief getting in the way? She's like the belief that these people have is that it's a waste of their time. They're trying to save lives. People come in in emergency situations and I'm trying to get them to stop and do paperwork.

00;17;42;01 - 00;18;12;07
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
Like it just doesn't feel important. Right. And the experience that they were having was nag, nag, nag, do the paperwork. And there is generally tension in the health care community around patient experience and data entry. Right? That's not an uncommon issue. So we helped her identify stories in this case where the experience that she could use to create a new belief, and she told two true stories from that emergency department of patients that had come in.

00;18;12;07 - 00;18;32;04
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
One was a woman. She was, in an emergency situation came in. They did not gather her next of kin information. They treated her when she fell unconscious, but she died. They later found out that she had had a, a condition that if they had known about by calling the next of kin, they might have adjusted the protocol and been able to save her.

00;18;32;07 - 00;18;55;23
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
The second patient, different time, same hospital came in. They did gather as next of kin information. He fell unconscious. They called the daughter. The daughter informed them about his medications, and they adjusted protocol and they saved his life. She told those two stories for three weeks, and in three weeks they started gathering next of kin information. 97% of the time the belief changed.

00;18;55;25 - 00;19;08;01
Dr. Jessica Kriegel
This is important. This is part of the process of saving lives. It's not just paperwork. And they started taking a new action. That's culture creation in action at scale.

00;19;08;03 - 00;19;35;29
Wayne Turmel
That is fabulous. doctor Jessica Kriegel, thank you so, so much for being with us on the long distance work life. If you are interested, ladies and gentlemen, in contacting Jessica culture. partners. Partners, listening to the Culture Leader podcast, we will have links to all of that good stuff in our show notes at Long distance work life.

00;19;35;29 - 00;20;01;29
Wayne Turmel
Dot com. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us. And ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, thank you. If you enjoyed today's conversation. And I can't believe, frankly, that you didn't, you know, like and subscribe. You know how podcasts work. We're trying to grow our listenership. You we want to find more smart people like you who want to, learn how to do this better.

00;20;02;02 - 00;20;28;24
Wayne Turmel
Also, on the subject of doing it better, shameless plug time. September 17th is the publication date for the new edition of The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership. the original came out in 2018. The world has changed since then. Our book is new. It's exciting. We talk about culture. We talk about hybrid teams.

00;20;28;29 - 00;20;58;13
Wayne Turmel
Please, please, please, wherever you get your books from. And of course, there is, a place you can find all of this. Our, long distance leadership series of classes. We have a new one that begins in late September. You can find that at Kevin eikenberry.com/lds, LDS, less LDS is a very different thing. no judgment. It's just a different thing.

00;20;58;13 - 00;21;25;09
Wayne Turmel
Darn it. if you want to reach out to myself or to Marissa, show ideas, guest ideas, questions, pet peeves, things you'd like us to, talk about and discuss on the show. We are easy to find. Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. We will be back next week with another episode. This time, Marissa and I will be there.

00;21;25;11 - 00;21;30;19
Wayne Turmel
Thanks for joining us on the long distance work life. Don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.


Featured Guest

Name: Dr. Jessica Kriegel

Bio: Jessica Kriegel is the Chief Scientist of Workplace Culture for Culture Partners, leading research and strategy in best practices for driving results through culture. For 15+ years, Jessica has been guiding global, national, Fortune 100, and other organizations across finance, technology, real estate, and healthcare industries on the path to creating intentional cultures that accelerate performance. As a keynote speaker, Jessica leverages her current research and 15+ years of global organizational culture innovation, providing leaders with the map and tools for how to build cultures that deliver results.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction to Dr. Jessica Kriegel and Culture Partners
3:00 What Does a Culture Scientist Do?
6:45 The Importance of Adaptive Culture Post-COVID
10:20 Debunking the Myths of Company Culture
14:10 The Power of Intentional Experiences
18:30 Case Study: How Culture Change Saved Lives
21:00 Closing Remarks

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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Read More
Ask Wayne Anything, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

How Remote Leadership Has Transformed Since 2018

In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, hosts Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry dive into the evolving landscape of remote and hybrid leadership. With the upcoming release of the second edition of The Long-Distance Leader, Wayne shares insights on how leadership has transformed since the book's original publication in 2018. From the disappearance of the "Remote Leadership Institute" brand to the emergence of hybrid teams as the new standard, the discussion highlights crucial changes in the way we work and lead. Tune in to learn about the key updates in the book, the importance of ongoing learning for leaders, and practical strategies for thriving in today's remote work environment.

Key Topics

1. How Remote Leadership Has Changed Since 2018
2. The Rise of Hybrid Teams
3. First Order vs. Second Order Changes in Leadership
4. The Shift to Written Communication
5. Preparing for Ongoing Changes in Work and Technology

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;02 - 00;00;20;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to the long-distance worklife. We help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker and joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00;00;20;08 - 00;00;25;21
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marissa. Hello, listeners, wherever you may be. Hi. How are you?

00;00;25;24 - 00;00;28;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Great. How are you?

00;00;28;25 - 00;00;34;18
Wayne Turmel
I am, I'm fine. I'm excited. We have a new book coming out. Kind of. Sorta.

00;00;34;25 - 00;00;39;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. So do you want to introduce that a little bit before we get into our questions today?

00;00;39;22 - 00;01;22;09
Wayne Turmel
Well, I'm excited. We are coming up, in 2018. Of course, Kevin Eikenberry and I wrote The Long Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership, which, you know, came out before Covid, and it it's in seven languages, and lots of people have read it and that's wonderful. but it was 2018 and the world has changed. So we now have the long distance leader revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid leadership, which is the second edition and the updated edition of the original long distance leader.

00;01;22;09 - 00;01;28;06
Wayne Turmel
There's about 2,025% updated content in the book.

00;01;28;08 - 00;01;50;22
Marisa Eikenberry
That's incredible. And we're actually going to talk about some of that today. specifically, we're going to dive into what is now chapter two of the revised one, about how remote leadership has changed and, that kind of thing. So I guess I want to start off with, how has the perception of remote leadership changed from, you know, 2018 to now?

00;01;50;25 - 00;02;24;09
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, it's changed. And I will give you a very concrete example of how it's changed. When I joined the Kevin Eikenberry Group and Kevin hired me. We actually formed a subdivision called the Remote Leadership Institute because people didn't know how to lead remote teams, and they hadn't done it. And it was this weird kind of thing. And over the last year or so, the brand of Remote Leadership Institute has actually gone away.

00;02;24;09 - 00;02;36;01
Wayne Turmel
It's been folded into the Kevin Eikenberry Group because it's no longer its own unique thing that nobody knows what the heck to do with. It's part of the water we swim in.

00;02;36;03 - 00;02;44;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I remember when it was still a big deal about what we were going to call it because, well, some people call it telework and some people are calling it telecommuting, and these people are calling it remote.

00;02;44;27 - 00;03;10;09
Wayne Turmel
And when was the last time somebody used the word telework? Right. So, so much has changed. I mean, in since 2018, when we wrote the book, zoom literally did not exist. It was a free service that had no corporate penetration. And suddenly it went from what? Zoom to a verb.

00;03;10;11 - 00;03;12;05
Marisa Eikenberry
In like two months.

00;03;12;07 - 00;03;16;07
Wayne Turmel
To a syndrome where suddenly people had zoom fatigue.

00;03;16;09 - 00;03;17;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;03;17;07 - 00;03;36;03
Wayne Turmel
And so things have changed. It is the short answer. Now, what really has changed? Well, a couple of things. Number one is more people have experienced remote work. more people have been successful doing remote work than anybody, especially their bosses thought they could.

00;03;36;05 - 00;03;37;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00;03;37;22 - 00;03;55;27
Wayne Turmel
so the genie is out of the bottle. the other thing that's happened, and this is why we've added the word hybrid to the title, and a lot of the new content is about hybrid teams, because even though a lot of organizations are returning to the office, are they really?

00;03;56;00 - 00;03;57;07
Marisa Eikenberry
You're right.

00;03;57;09 - 00;04;08;27
Wayne Turmel
You know, so many organizations have come to the situation where, well, you know, we're going to be in the office 2 or 3 days a week.

00;04;08;29 - 00;04;35;23
Wayne Turmel
And that's great. It's a compromise. Everybody's kind of doing the best they can. But as I like to say, that's not a strategy. That's a hostage negotiation. Right. You know how how much can we make them come back to the office before they quit? How much can we whine about going into the office before they fire us? And so they kind of reach this compromise, that sort of kind of works?

00;04;35;27 - 00;05;05;25
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Real hybrid work is a very different thing. And what we urge in the book is to take a look at whatever it looks like. Right? Whether it's you've got full time, some people remote full time, some people in the office, people are in a couple of days a week. That's still a remote team. If you have one member of your team who isn't where everybody else is, you have a remote team and don't forget that.

00;05;05;28 - 00;05;19;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that you talk about in this new chapter, the book, is this concept of first order versus second order changes. Can you explain what that is?

00;05;19;10 - 00;05;45;02
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. It's kind of like, a first degree burn is how a third degree burn has you in the hospital. All right. The same is true when you are talking about change. A first order of change is we need to do this differently. We need to do it better, faster, smarter, whatever a second order change is, what we're doing isn't working.

00;05;45;02 - 00;05;47;23
Wayne Turmel
We need to do something else.

00;05;47;25 - 00;05;48;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Gotcha.

00;05;48;24 - 00;06;23;11
Wayne Turmel
So a first order change is we need to use our webcams more often. Yeah, a second order change is we need to make sure that we meet once a quarter as a team, regardless of where people are. It is worth coming together to do that so that our team is connected, engaged, gets to know each other. All that good stuff.

00;06;23;13 - 00;06;36;09
Wayne Turmel
And those kind of changes, those kinds of changes are bigger than we think. I mean, the thing about remote work is the first order change is great and come in a couple of days a week.

00;06;36;11 - 00;06;38;11
Marisa Eikenberry


00;06;38;13 - 00;06;57;18
Wayne Turmel
A much bigger change is we don't expect you to come in and try to get your tasks done that day. We're going to do all our meetings on the days when we're together and allow people to not have to join meetings on the days that they're working from home, right.

00;06;57;19 - 00;07;03;00
Marisa Eikenberry
That's a huge shift in mindset in how you work during the week and everything. Well.

00;07;03;03 - 00;07;12;19
Wayne Turmel
This isn't in the book, but it's core to, I think, how we think about hybrid work. And it's kind of mentioned, but.

00;07;12;21 - 00;07;14;24
Marisa Eikenberry
So you're getting an inside scoop, listeners, are.

00;07;14;25 - 00;07;43;23
Wayne Turmel
You getting an inside scoop? Here's the thing. Most of what we call hybrid work is not it's a blend. It's a compromise, a true hybrid takes two things, puts them together and creates a whole new entity. So the most obvious example is a mule. Yes, one parent is a donkey and one parent is a horse. But if you've ever dealt with mules, you know that they are their own unique animal.

00;07;43;25 - 00;08;05;00
Wayne Turmel
They have traits of both. But a mule is a mule and it is not a horse. And it is sure not a donkey. That's the thing about hybrid work. For hybrid work to really take the next level, to really be strategic, we need to realize that it's not just some people are in the office and some people aren't.

00;08;05;02 - 00;08;14;27
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, it's not just what work gets done where, but what work gets done where, when?

00;08;15;00 - 00;08;15;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;08;15;26 - 00;08;36;25
Wayne Turmel
It takes time into account. And so that's going to require a little bit of different thinking. But just as remote leadership was look do the leadership stuff and you'll probably be okay. Right. What we do as leaders hasn't changed. How we do it is a little bit different.

00;08;36;27 - 00;08;38;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. But the basic concept is the same.

00;08;38;26 - 00;08;51;19
Wayne Turmel
Basic concepts are the same. The same is true of hybrid, except you're building time into the equation in ways that weren't when it was just like, okay, work wherever you want.

00;08;51;21 - 00;09;09;29
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and speaking of the idea of, you know, the leadership concepts haven't changed, but how we do them does. So one of the things that we've seen happen with this remote and hybrid shift is the shift of written communication, more than, you know, oral communication. You're not going down the hall and telling Suzy Q that something has changed.

00;09;10;05 - 00;09;17;13
Marisa Eikenberry
So because of now the shift to written communication and the prevalence of email, like, how is that impacted leadership styles?

00;09;17;15 - 00;09;45;15
Wayne Turmel
Well, it's not just the prevalence of email. Email is in fact becoming less prevalent than than it was because things like teams and slack and text messaging and all of that stuff. But what that does is it changes the way we communicate. Written communication, by its nature, is less rich than spoken communication.

00;09;45;17 - 00;09;46;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;09;46;25 - 00;10;10;00
Wayne Turmel
Right. I can send you a message. I can't see your face. I have no idea if you've even read it. I don't know whether you're going to take action or not. If you have a question, it's going to take time for that question to get back to me. Whereas if we're sitting face to face and I say something, you don't understand, I can see on your face because I want to play poker with you someday.

00;10;10;03 - 00;10;11;14
Wayne Turmel
Oh, I can see, oh.

00;10;11;14 - 00;10;12;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I replace lose.

00;10;12;24 - 00;10;44;28
Wayne Turmel
So that there's confusion and. Yes. And whatever. Right. And and on a hybrid team, that can be a challenge because the people that are physically together get a different level of communication. Sometimes than the people who are remote. And at best that can lead to kind of quickness. And at worst it becomes a proximity bias issue. Right. Which excludes the more remote members of the team.

00;10;45;00 - 00;11;11;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, we've talked about that in some other episodes, and I'll link those in the show notes. And so, you know, with this, like we're constantly learning and we're constantly changing how we're doing things to adapt to this remote and hybrid environment. So, you know, why is it so crucial for leaders to accept it, that, you know, they are going to require ongoing learning and they are going to require adaptation that maybe they weren't doing prior to the remote shift?

00;11;11;08 - 00;11;38;05
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. one is that when Covid hit and there was the explosion in remote work, everybody was just dog paddling as fast as they could to get through it. And the good news is that they got through it. Yeah. Productivity did not drop the way people thought it would. Employee engagement did not drop the way that they thought it would.

00;11;38;08 - 00;12;01;21
Wayne Turmel
more people quit after Covid than quit during it, quite frankly. so the we can do it. And we got through it and we kind of burst our way through it, and we did the best we could. And some people had the good sense to buy the long distance. Later or, you know, have us teach our long distance leadership series.

00;12;01;23 - 00;12;07;28
Wayne Turmel
and that's certainly still available. But the nuances.

00;12;08;00 - 00;12;08;24
Marisa Eikenberry


00;12;08;26 - 00;12;33;23
Wayne Turmel
Of how do we do this in a remote environment? There was kind of a tendency to think, oh, we can go back to the before times. We can go back to the way things were. But for the first time, leaders over frontline supervisor are now likely to have at least one member of their team who is remote.

00;12;33;25 - 00;12;56;15
Wayne Turmel
So kind of relying on the way we did it in the before times creates some issues with employee engagement with communication that don't often turn into burning fires, but they are problems that could be believed and situations that could be better than they are.

00;12;56;17 - 00;12;57;13
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;12;57;15 - 00;13;26;00
Wayne Turmel
And so with this notion that, well, we're all back in the office now. Well, no you're not. On any given day, 50% of your desks are empty. So it's easy to kind of fall into that. Remote's over. We're back to normal. Well, no, the new norm is that you are going to have these things. You're going to have to figure out how to include your remote employees in the discussion in a meaningful ways.

00;13;26;07 - 00;14;06;17
Wayne Turmel
You're more importantly, for the first time, organizations cannot just put their succession planning and their employee development kind of default to the people in the office. If you want to keep your best people and statistics say that your mid-level and junior senior, you know, not C-suite, but, director level folks are most prone to want to work remotely at least some of the time if you do not as an organization, adjust to that, develop succession plans, develop personal development plans.

00;14;06;19 - 00;14;40;28
Wayne Turmel
It's going to be very hard to keep good people. It's going to be very hard to attract people, and it's going to make onboarding a real pain unless you systematize, systemize, systematize. I'm not quite sure what the word is, but you know what? if we don't somehow create a system that acknowledges the differences amongst the team and builds those into creating one team, it'll work, but it won't work.

00;14;40;28 - 00;14;50;18
Wayne Turmel
Great, right? And none of us are listening to this podcast because we want it to just work. We want it to work great.

00;14;50;21 - 00;15;07;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? So, you know, how can leaders kind of prepare themselves and their teams for, you know, more inevitable changes in work expectations and technology advancements? I mean, we've already discussed this is the new normal. We're going to have new stuff coming in all the time.

00;15;08;01 - 00;15;25;24
Wayne Turmel
But well, and it's normal this week, the exactly I mean, one as of 1048, July, whatever the heck it is. this is the normal. By the time we talk next week, it will be something else.

00;15;25;26 - 00;15;26;22
Marisa Eikenberry


00;15;26;24 - 00;15;57;04
Wayne Turmel
So the first thing as leaders is don't panic but don't get comfortable. Understand that change is inevitable. Things are going to change. Keep an eye on it. Right. Don't just keep an eye out. You don't have to know every new thing. You. I guarantee you have someone on your team who is the first one to say, hey, there's this new thing we should use, and nobody likes them and nobody listens to them.

00;15;57;06 - 00;16;02;26
Marisa Eikenberry
And you know, we do. We can.

00;16;02;29 - 00;16;23;21
Wayne Turmel
You're early adopters are lovely human beings, and frequently a bit of a pain. but as leaders, you need to be aware of not so much what tools are out there, but what problems might a new tool address?

00;16;23;24 - 00;16;24;14
Marisa Eikenberry


00;16;24;16 - 00;16;28;08
Wayne Turmel
That's how to look at new technology, right?

00;16;28;08 - 00;16;31;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Because not every new solution is going to work for every team too.

00;16;31;29 - 00;16;48;19
Wayne Turmel
And those of us who survived the Betamax, VHS, TiVo DVR comes with my cable system. Oh, look, I can fit it all on my phone who have survived that understands you can't get too comfortable with technology.

00;16;48;24 - 00;16;55;29
Marisa Eikenberry
Right about the time that you think this is going to be the thing it's not. And then, you know, vinyl comes back.

00;16;56;01 - 00;17;25;28
Wayne Turmel
Well, I mean, as we said before, Covid, Microsoft Teams did not exist, right? It was slack for business or Skype for business. Skype for business no longer exists. Now we have teams, right. Because organizations were looking for not having 17 different tools. They wanted one ring to rule them. All right. And whether that rather.

00;17;25;28 - 00;17;27;26
Marisa Eikenberry
That ring should be Microsoft is a whole different.

00;17;27;26 - 00;17;48;02
Wayne Turmel
Ballgame. It's a totally different question. But they will take the convenience of having one thing and the less and cost and the ease of not having to get 17 licenses for every single tool. Absolutely right. As we've said so many times on this show, every decision gets made for a reason.

00;17;48;05 - 00;17;52;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? It makes sense to somebody. It just might not be, you know.

00;17;52;03 - 00;18;18;19
Wayne Turmel
So and we're not going to go down the Microsoft rabbit hole. But you know, your question was what do leaders need to think? We just need to keep listening. you know, exclusion on remote teams is the biggest, most corrosive thing. When people feel they are not included, when they feel they're being actively excluded, which is frequently not the case.

00;18;18;21 - 00;18;30;10
Wayne Turmel
I'm not being mean to you. I am not promoting you because I don't like you. I literally don't think about you because I got somebody right here in front of me.

00;18;30;13 - 00;18;38;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. You need we, as one of our coworkers says a lot. Guy Harris, he says, assume benign intent. They didn't intentionally do this to hurt you.

00;18;38;15 - 00;19;07;01
Wayne Turmel
Right. And we need to know. You need to keep taking the pulse. You need to have rich conversations. You need to give people the chance to engage. Engagement comes from within. I can't think I can engage with you, but you will not necessarily engage with me unless you choose to. Yeah, but I have to give you that opportunity, and I have to avoid the things that will make you disengage.

00;19;07;04 - 00;19;22;29
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, it's a give and take right. So, you know, we've discussed that like things are always changing, they're always adapting. And we need to be doing that. So what are some effective ways for leaders to stay updated and continuously improve their leadership skills.

00;19;23;01 - 00;19;49;16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I mean, this sounds self-serving because look what we do for a living here at the Kevin Eikenberry Group. But there are plenty of including our own. And we're happy to share those with you ongoing newsletters and updates. And there's no shortage of stuff out there. If you're on LinkedIn, find the gurus that speak to you and just subscribe to them on LinkedIn.

00;19;49;18 - 00;20;00;15
Wayne Turmel
Kevin and I are on LinkedIn. We post new information all the time so that you at least have some sense of what's happening out in the landscape.

00;20;00;18 - 00;20;02;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00;20;02;06 - 00;20;25;19
Wayne Turmel
There are ways to develop your skills. There is e-learning, there is shortcuts, and there are actual training. Whether your organization provides it or you come to someone like us and our long distance leadership series. and oh, by the way, not for nothing. There's books out there, right?

00;20;25;22 - 00;20;33;28
Marisa Eikenberry
There's there's learning for everyone. So speaking of that, and because we're coming up on our time, I do want to.

00;20;34;04 - 00;20;36;05
Wayne Turmel
See the subtle way I let us.

00;20;36;07 - 00;20;59;01
Marisa Eikenberry
To. I did I did, so, as you know, those of you who are watching just saw Wayne hold up a lovely book. And so we have a special announcement and that is that the second edition of the Long-Distance leader is available for preorder and will be launching on September 17th, and this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

00;20;59;02 - 00;21;21;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Kevin, I can very Wayne Trammell show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. So don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Preorder your copy today at Long distance Work life.com/l d l and strengthen your leadership skills today. And Wayne, thank you so much for this conversation.

00;21;21;00 - 00;21;30;08
Marisa Eikenberry
I hope that people are really excited about the new book. it's you've changed so much, and I think it's really going to be helpful for the people who are reading it.

00;21;30;11 - 00;21;42;16
Wayne Turmel
So it's it's, it's a blast. And, you know, it's funny, we say all the time here at the cabinet Kingsbury group training as an event, learning as a process. And that includes for us.

00;21;42;22 - 00;22;09;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, absolutely. We are also learning all the time and, you know, early adopting, but anyway, thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources. Don't forget to go to long distance work life.com. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes. And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating and review.

00;22;10;01 - 00;22;25;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode. We would love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us.

00;22;25;19 - 00;22;28;12
Marisa Eikenberry
And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

00;22;28;14 - 00;22;41;04
Unknown


00;22;41;06 - 00;22;42;01
Unknown



Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Today's Episode
01:50 How Remote Leadership Has Changed Since 2018
03:36 Understanding Hybrid Teams and Their Impact
05:05 First Order vs. Second Order Changes in Leadership
09:09 The Shift to Written Communication in Remote Teams
15:07 Preparing for Continuous Change in Work and Technology
20:34 Special Announcement: Preorder the Revised Long-Distance Leader
21:21 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Pre-Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Guests, Hybrid Work, Leadership, Working Remotely

Transformational Leadership Skills for Remote Teams with Alex Geesbreght

Wayne Turmel talks with Alex Geesbreght, co-founder of PRAX Leadership, about the changing landscape of leadership in the remote and hybrid work environment. Alex shares insights on the state of leadership today, the importance of authentic connections, and the skills leaders need to develop to succeed. They discuss emotional regulation, the significance of self-leadership, and how leaders can genuinely connect with their teams despite the physical distance.

Key Points

  • The current state of leadership and how it has changed over the past five years
  • The impact of remote and hybrid work on team connection and leadership
  • The difference between connectivity and true connection
  • Importance of authenticity and vulnerability in leadership
  • Practical tips for emotional regulation and self-awareness
  • The role of neuroscience in leadership development
  • The future of leadership and the importance of investing in individual growth

    • View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;02 - 00;00;42;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Long Distance Worklife. The podcast where we do our darndest to help you thrive and survive and make sense of the ever evolving world of work, particularly when it comes to remote and hybrid. I am Wayne Turmel. I'm your host. Marisa is not here this week. That's the bad news. The good news is we have another very, very interesting, insightful guest who is going to help us make sense of what is going on out there.

    00;00;42;27 - 00;00;53;27
    Wayne Turmel
    And in this particular case, our guest is Alex Geesbreght, who is with PRAX leadership. Alex, how the heck are you and who the heck are you?

    00;00;54;00 - 00;01;11;24
    Alex Geesbreght
    You. Well, I'm very good, as you can see, because behind me I'm by a beach right now. So you caught me at a very good time. So how I am is great. And who I am is, Alex Geesbreght. I’m co founder of PRAX Leadership and I was fortunate enough to to co-found that with my brother with whom I've worked for a very long time.

    00;01;11;24 - 00;01;15;16
    Alex Geesbreght
    And it's it's a pleasure and it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

    00;01;15;18 - 00;01;45;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Well as always, thank you for being had. the world obviously is we're in this state of flux, this remote work. There's hybrid work. Maybe we're working with our team. Maybe we're not. let's start with a really general question. What is the state of leadership there in the workplace today? What are you what are you hearing that's different than it might have been?

    00;01;45;03 - 00;01;46;28
    Wayne Turmel
    say five years ago?

    00;01;47;00 - 00;02;11;10
    Alex Geesbreght
    Yeah, I think generally, first of all, any time any company, devotes any time to their people in terms of leadership development, it's it's good news. You know, you mentioned something there very early on about sort of this hybrid and work away and together. I think that's what a little bit different now than it was five, ten years ago, is that pre-pandemic, the norm was that we were together.

    00;02;11;10 - 00;02;41;15
    Alex Geesbreght
    We had what we used to refer to as hallway conversations, where a lot of very important things happened that you couldn't measure as it became a necessity and then maybe morphed into a bit of a convenience, maybe even for economic reasons, where people started being further and further apart from each other. I think we lost some of our connection in if you look at just generally in the last five years, connectivity is it's sort of an all time high.

    00;02;41;15 - 00;02;48;20
    Alex Geesbreght
    I mean, the number of ways that I could reach you if I wanted to is almost limitless.

    00;02;48;23 - 00;02;50;21
    Wayne Turmel
    Oh, yeah. There is no hiding.

    00;02;50;24 - 00;03;10;01
    Alex Geesbreght
    Right? There's no hiding. But very few people take the time that you have to sit down with another human being and have an interaction with them. So I think that that's changing. I think maybe not for the better. It hasn't really benefited humanity, for the better, because of the lack of opportunities.

    00;03;10;03 - 00;03;16;16
    Wayne Turmel
    Do you think that's because the ease of communication has made it more transactional?

    00;03;16;18 - 00;03;41;02
    Alex Geesbreght
    Man, I, I think I, I've struggled with how to phrase that, and I may have to just steal that because I think that's exactly I think it is first real connection. if I may be digressing a little bit, but I just sort of look at, you know, we're friends in likes have sort of, you know, friendships on social media.

    00;03;41;05 - 00;04;01;01
    Alex Geesbreght
    They've sort of taken the place or satiated our need for actual friends. but but there's a big, huge difference between having an actual friend and somebody who says, your friend online. And I think a lot of times you can sort of low yourself into believing that you have made a connection when all you've had is connectivity.

    00;04;01;01 - 00;04;24;00
    Wayne Turmel
    So if that's the case, as a leader, where do you think leaders in general, and I know your mileage may vary and all human beings are different and all those other lovely disclaimers. But at the end of the day, when we're talking about in general, where do you think leaders are struggling most in terms of connection?

    00;04;24;06 - 00;04;50;17
    Alex Geesbreght
    I think being real, actually, a lot of the pressures that a lot of leaders have, come from sometimes the top, sometimes below them, and sometimes themselves, it's what we refer to as sort of soft skills that people have. But I think it's rooted to, to get to the root of your question, if you're asking me my opinion, I think it's people's comfortability with who they are.

    00;04;50;20 - 00;05;13;12
    Alex Geesbreght
    And, a little bit of trepidation around just being real with their people, in other words, showing vulnerability. I think if you're a parent, I think if you're a boss, there's this tendency to want to be the smartest person in the room all of the time. And I think that leaders do a disservice to those in their charge when they attempt, to portray that.

    00;05;13;12 - 00;05;25;26
    Alex Geesbreght
    Because we're not perfect, we have all kinds of foibles and, and shortcomings. And I think that that's where leaders, if they can become more secure and, with themselves, I think that they become instantly better leaders.

    00;05;25;29 - 00;05;49;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Is is that what you mean? I was, will be links to Alex in practice and all that good stuff on our show notes. dear listener, but I was on your site, and and you kind of divide between, you know, teaching general skills and self leadership. Is that part of that conversation?

    00;05;49;29 - 00;06;13;15
    Alex Geesbreght
    Yeah. One of the things my brother and I, you know, he spent 20 years in the healthcare industry and had a chance to work together. And our company now is, is really the culmination of not just a general personal and professional ethos, but experience, itself. And so what we we bifurcate our company into two things really technical skills.

    00;06;13;19 - 00;06;40;27
    Alex Geesbreght
    Skills base classes that we teach that implement the practice practices and way of of thought. And then the other one is focused on, transformational growth. So it truly is a soft skills based curriculum, in several different curricula where we focus on the self. And I would just say that, you know, I think a lot of times people are people say leadership and sometimes they mean self leadership, and sometimes they just mean being a leader.

    00;06;41;00 - 00;07;00;18
    Alex Geesbreght
    We sort of believe that everybody is a leader, not just because you lead yourself. And when you lead yourself, you have a tremendous capability of leading others. And so focusing on the individual is something that is very, very important to us. And we've seen the benefits there from in reality, as applied to actual companies.

    00;07;00;22 - 00;07;23;25
    Wayne Turmel
    When we're talking about the individual, which is really as we're talking about this show, it's individuals who are listening, right? People who care enough about their leadership and about their work to want to be better. where do you think the areas are that people need to specifically grow? I mean, it's one thing to say, be authentic and be true to yourself.

    00;07;23;25 - 00;07;30;07
    Wayne Turmel
    How the heck do you teach that? I mean, wow, you know, does that be more authentic? Oh, yeah. I'll get right on that.

    00;07;30;09 - 00;07;49;06
    Alex Geesbreght
    Boy. That's, It's really what sort of what? What comes before that. That's a great question, because first of all, I love that you're asking me because a lot of times people throw platitudes and trite phrases like I did. I meant something behind it. But thank you for giving me a chance to explain it. But being more real or being more authentic, you know, I have.

    00;07;49;06 - 00;08;14;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    I truly do believe that you can draw a direct line, almost logistically from being real. Okay, which I'll explain all the way to happiness, which if you sort of think, I don't know, maybe some of your viewers will agree with this, but it's kind of the goal, you know, whether you're whether you're in your life or your personal life or your professional life, which is really not that different.

    00;08;14;19 - 00;08;42;15
    Alex Geesbreght
    You're you're the same person. But that starts with being able to see yourself as flawed, which requires vulnerability to requires a certain level of security. It requires introspection. It requires sitting down in a quiet room some time and turning everything off and saying, actually who I am, who am I? And looking in a mirror figuratively. But in order to do that, you have to be okay with what that reflection will show you.

    00;08;42;17 - 00;09;15;10
    Alex Geesbreght
    And that's scary for a lot of people. But if you will take the time to introspect, to listen to feedback and then go identify the things that are lacking, perhaps in your life, whether they be personal growth skills or technical skills, and address those things. It's incredibly freeing. It can be scary for people, but once you understand what those are and you seek to improve them through people that know more than you, somebody knows more about anything than I do.

    00;09;15;15 - 00;09;44;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    I would go to them. You get feedback, any development requires practice and feedback. And you you seek that out and then you can actually make a positive change where there was once something that you considered to be lacking. So yeah, I mean, I say real and authentic, but it's not about pretending to be those things. It's about actually being those things with an eye toward an improvement that does lead to happiness.

    00;09;44;22 - 00;10;05;03
    Alex Geesbreght
    So I don't know if that makes sense. I see it logistically, and I see them interconnected. I really do see being comfortable or secure with oneself and one's happiness, whether they're at work or at play. as being, one in the same or at least a condition precedent to the other.

    00;10;05;05 - 00;10;11;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. It feels sometimes when you take leadership training, it's if you can fake sincerity, you got it made right.

    00;10;11;06 - 00;10;13;07
    Alex Geesbreght
    The famous quote. Right.

    00;10;13;10 - 00;10;28;11
    Wayne Turmel
    That's and that's the road that is there. But let me ask you this. Is there science behind this? I mean, is there, something beyond just kind of intuitively knowing that this would make us better?

    00;10;28;14 - 00;10;49;09
    Alex Geesbreght
    Well, there's a tremendous amount. And so one of the things that we focus on is neuroscience, which is kind of this fancy word of the overlap between cognition and our behavior. So our thoughts and our behavior and what we focus on to that end is the alignment of values. And our prioritization in our lives. So we all have these values.

    00;10;49;09 - 00;11;02;14
    Alex Geesbreght
    But if I were to ask you what your values are, maybe not you because you've probably given this more thought than the average person, but a lot of people would just sort of recite aspirational values or things that they believe. They believe.

    00;11;02;17 - 00;11;07;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay. So when you see aspirational values, for example. Yeah.

    00;11;07;02 - 00;11;31;03
    Alex Geesbreght
    I, I, I'm a family man, right? But I come home and I watch YouTube videos instead of playing with my kids. Right. You know, so my values, there's an argument to be said that I actually live my values because I live what is actually important to me and what I think about, but I tell you that I'm a family man, but I my behavior doesn't match that, if that makes sense.

    00;11;31;07 - 00;11;54;06
    Alex Geesbreght
    So the alignment of those two things, which again, requires a certain amount of let's introspect, let's find out what our values actually are, and then align that thinking with the behavior itself over time. Not on the Tuesday sort of rah rah session. That's inspirational, but in a hard sort of practice, scientifically, applied way.

    00;11;54;08 - 00;12;27;28
    Wayne Turmel
    I want to get back to this idea of the leaders kind of being self-aware, and especially when we're remote. We are so much in charge of ourselves. Right. Or or we are either in charge of ourselves or left to our own devices, depending on your confidence and competence level. Right? what are we where are these specific skills that leaders can actually build to be better at their jobs?

    00;12;27;28 - 00;12;37;28
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. Specifically, what if I said I need to learn something right now that we make better? What what kind of things are we talking about?

    00;12;38;04 - 00;13;13;01
    Alex Geesbreght
    I would say emotional regulation. So how you influence yourself. So we have an acronym we called Bits which is fully influencing the self. It's all over what it is we do with practice. But just as an example is just emotional regulation, as opposed to dysregulation. So when somebody, when there's a threat, when there's a conflict, when there is something that, frustrates us or throws us off our game and just using sort of just very commonly terms, how do we respond to that?

    00;13;13;01 - 00;13;47;11
    Alex Geesbreght
    Do we go further and further down and, compromise ourselves and others, or are we able to step back a sense, assess who we are, how we're reacting to it and see it more objectively, and then apply the best next case as opposed to reacting in an emotional way. So self-regulation self, emotional regulation is an incredibly important thing for a leader because think about all the damage that everybody's had a boss that, that, that let's call it, flies off the handle or reacts, emotionally.

    00;13;47;11 - 00;14;11;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    And by the way, I am not, I don't use the word emotion and business pejoratively like a lot of people do. I think emotion is a tremendously valuable thing. I think directing that emotion, is incredibly important, and having it be reactionary or emotive is, incredibly damaging.

    00;14;11;22 - 00;14;42;25
    Wayne Turmel
    As you're talking, my brain is doing what it normally does, which is create about five scenarios at once. So let me just ask you about this. It seems intuitively that this might be harder to do at a distance than it is if we're together. If we're together, I'm getting a lot more feet on how to respond. I'm aware of my body language and things because you're right, there is.

    00;14;42;28 - 00;14;51;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Does being remote make it harder to do that? And how do you then, if it is, how do you overcome that?

    00;14;51;02 - 00;15;09;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    First of all, I think it absolutely is. I mean, look for today on as you know, when you look at what has replaced the meeting, it's the zoom meeting, right. And so I really only have to be concerned with what I'm wearing from about here up. and, and I, you know, I don't I could I do in fact have shorts on.

    00;15;09;19 - 00;15;35;11
    Alex Geesbreght
    I don't have to even have shoes on. So there's a certain, lack of thought and forethought that goes into to, being remote. And I love the word you introduced very early on into this, which is it's transactional. And there are so many cues that we don't get when we are not in person. that I do think it's it's clearly damaging.

    00;15;35;11 - 00;16;06;25
    Alex Geesbreght
    I mean, look, I would have much rather sat down with you across from across a table, and I actually, this is better than a phone call. but I can't imagine. And this is just for me. I can't imagine conducting business with leaders. Like, we just have an executive team of 14. We in our former business, we had 4000 employees and we had 200 corporate employees that I interacted with at least once a week, and that those 45 minutes waiting were very, very important to me because I didn't I couldn't spend time with 200 people.

    00;16;06;28 - 00;16;31;04
    Alex Geesbreght
    I could spend a little bit more time with those 14 executives. But if I hadn't sat down and looked at the faces of those 200 people once a week and given them a chance to express what their interpretation of the words that I say, were, I said work, I would have lost them, and I needed to feel not just connectivity with them, but connection with them.

    00;16;31;07 - 00;16;49;18
    Alex Geesbreght
    And as an aside, and one of the things that I would do is I would spend time telling them they would see me fly all over the country. but I would spend time telling them where I screwed up and why we didn't get a contract that they can't, that they don't have to work on because of something I did or something somebody else did.

    00;16;49;18 - 00;16;52;00
    Alex Geesbreght
    But we talked about that openly in person.

    00;16;52;02 - 00;17;14;04
    Wayne Turmel
    This idea of taking it, and it's not just emotional intelligence. It goes beyond just basic the conversation about emotional intelligence, clearly. where's it going? What where do you see these conversations and this kind of thinking what's what's kind of next and where is it headed?

    00;17;14;05 - 00;17;17;00
    Alex Geesbreght
    Well, can I just tell you my dream of where it's headed?

    00;17;17;03 - 00;17;19;14
    Wayne Turmel
    Tell me anything you want, man. I up, all right.

    00;17;19;14 - 00;17;47;29
    Alex Geesbreght
    Okay, so I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if technology Wayne will drive us further from each other or if we will somehow harness it to become actually closer. But I will tell you what I want from companies, in families and teams is I want there to be sort of a global realization that none of those constructs exist.

    00;17;48;01 - 00;18;30;21
    Alex Geesbreght
    they don't exist without people, without an individual. And I think that this world will be better off. Certainly companies, certainly families. And on a team level, when people and companies understand that you don't improve groups, you don't improve teams, you improve individuals. And so our clients, the ones that we want, which is represents what I think is euphoric in terms of how a company would, go about improving their workforce and creating a happier workforce is for them to sort of step back and instead of just the lip service of our people are the most important thing in our company, and this is who we are, where people can be.

    00;18;30;24 - 00;19;03;26
    Alex Geesbreght
    That's great. But what does that mean? And instead of approaching it with the bottom right of the PNL in mind and KPIs and metrics, I wish that they would start to look at the improvement of their people a little bit more altruistically, which is tough to ask a company to do that, but to approach it as if what they've been saying forever was actually true, meaning that their people are actually the most important and invest in them and, invest in them for the sake of them.

    00;19;03;28 - 00;19;21;23
    Alex Geesbreght
    It's okay if they want to do the math and say, look, if Bob gets better and three two gets better and Sue gets better, we're all probably going to be better. And that's okay. But just for a minute, stop with the metrics, stop with the KPIs and ask yourself, when I leave a movie, how do I know if I like that movie?

    00;19;21;25 - 00;19;41;29
    Alex Geesbreght
    Do I write down, oh, I laughed three times. I didn't go to the bathroom. I, you know, I barely ate my popcorn. Yes, I like the movie. No, you just know. And one other thing I would say is that if anybody ever has an opportunity or a need to go seek the advice of somebody else, maybe even professionally, they go to a counselor.

    00;19;42;01 - 00;20;03;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    How often does a counselor sit down and say, okay, let's develop some metrics and KPIs around your, your wellness and, and how you're going to improve. Of course they don't. They connect with the person, they sit there, they do what you're doing, they ask questions. They listen. By the way, just to answer your other question, that is another thing that leaders could do better.

    00;20;03;21 - 00;20;23;26
    Alex Geesbreght
    listening and empathy and and you maybe have to fake that until you make it. But, there are several examples, but I'm digressing. But I would just say, my dream is that companies would actually do what they say is important to them, and that is invest in their people for their people, not for the company.

    00;20;23;26 - 00;20;26;13
    Wayne Turmel
    Madness. I tell you, that's crazy. Talk.

    00;20;26;20 - 00;20;30;05
    Alex Geesbreght
    It is why I said it was a dream.

    00;20;30;08 - 00;20;57;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Alex, thank you so much. This is great. Been a great conversation. Alas, our time is up. thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it. Of course, you can learn more about Alex, about Praxis, all that good stuff, by visiting the longdistanceworklife.com. You will find a transcript of this show. You can find past episodes.

    00;20;57;07 - 00;21;22;14
    Wayne Turmel
    You can leave us comments, show ideas, questions, vicious attacks, anything that you want to tell us, you can reach out to either myself or Marisa on LinkedIn or through email. And we want to remind you that a lot of you came to us because of our book, The Long-Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership, that that sucker came out in 2018.

    00;21;22;15 - 00;21;58;29
    Wayne Turmel
    September 17th of this year. We are in the second edition and updated new information. edition of The Long-Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership. The second edition goes on sale September 17th, and we hope that you will check that out. in the meantime, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, if you want to be a better leader in a remote environment, if you want to work on some of the things that Alex told us about, check out our long leadership series.

    00;21;58;29 - 00;22;27;24
    Wayne Turmel
    We offer it three four times a year as a public enrollment program. You can find anything you need in terms of information, pricing, all that good stuff at KevinEikenberry.com. And of course, if you enjoyed the show, tell a friend like and subscribe. I refuse to say smash the like button because I am not 12. but but, you know, you could push a gem again.

    00;22;27;24 - 00;22;45;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Let us know that you want to like and subscribe to the show. So that is it. Ladies and gentlemen, for another edition of The Long Distance Work Life. Next week, we will be back with Marisa. I am Wayne Turmel. Thank you for being with us. Don't let the weasels get you down.

    Featured Guest

    Name: Alex Geesbreght

    Bio: Alex Geesbreght is the Founder and Partner of PRAX Leadership, LLC and Geesbreght Group LLC. Previously, he was the Owner of Emergency Medicine Consultants, where he served as General Counsel, President, and Chief Strategy Officer for over sixteen years until its sale in 2018. He also owned and led PhysAssist Scribes, the nation’s first medical scribe company.

    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    00:43 Meet Alex Geesbreght
    01:45 The State of Leadership Today
    02:50 Impact of Remote Work on Connection
    04:24 The Importance of Authenticity
    07:23 Teaching Authenticity in Leadership
    10:28 The Role of Neuroscience
    12:27 Key Skills for Remote Leaders
    14:51 Challenges of Remote Leadership
    17:14 The Future of Leadership

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