Amazon's Return to Office: Is Remote Work on the Way Out?
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Amazon’s Return to Office: Is Remote Work on the Way Out?

Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel tackle the hot-button issue of Amazon’s recent return-to-office mandate and what it means for the future of remote work. Amazon’s decision to require employees to come back to the office—and its ultimatum of “come back or find a new job”—has sparked conversations about whether this marks the end of the remote work era.

Marisa and Wayne dive into the reasons behind Amazon’s push for office attendance, from massive real estate investments to a company culture driven by performance. They also explore the broader implications for other companies, the financial and cultural challenges that come with hybrid work, and how employees worldwide, like those at Ubisoft in France, are pushing back against such mandates.

Key Takeaways

1. Amazon's RTO Mandate: Why Amazon is forcing employees back into the office and the real estate and management philosophies driving the decision.
2. Is Remote Work Fading?: Why some companies are clinging to old work models, despite the success of remote work during the pandemic.
3. Worker Pushback Globally: How employees, including Ubisoft workers in France, are fighting against return-to-office policies—and what this means for global trends.
4. A Seismic Shift in Work: Why we’re in the midst of a massive change in how companies view work, leadership, and productivity.

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;03 - 00;00;18;14
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to long distance worklife, where we help you lead work and thrive in remote hybrid teams. I'm. Marisa Eikenberry. And joining me because my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00;00;18;16 - 00;00;21;09
Wayne Turmel
Hi. Hello. That would be me. Hi. How are you?

00;00;21;11 - 00;00;22;27
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00;00;22;29 - 00;00;26;15
Wayne Turmel
I am swell. And the great scheme of things.

00;00;26;17 - 00;00;47;13
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, I'm sure you're going to be even more swell. If not, your brain will explode here shortly as we're tackling the big question of. Is this the end of remote work or just the beginning of a new conversation? So one of the things that I know you've been talking a lot about lately is that Amazon just decided that everyone is returning to office.

00;00;47;15 - 00;01;02;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And if you didn't want to do that, well, have fun finding a new job. So why do you think that some companies, like Amazon, are pushing for this full return to office mandates, despite remote work being successful during the pandemic?

00;01;02;07 - 00;01;07;20
Wayne Turmel
Okay, so there's about five things to unpack in that sentence. Things.

00;01;07;23 - 00;01;11;00
Marisa Eikenberry
That's fair. I kind of gave you a loaded question right?

00;01;11;02 - 00;01;38;17
Wayne Turmel
And there was a lot going on. First of all, you know, were we successful during the pandemic? Generally speaking, yes. Work got done. Productivity. Depending on the type of job rose or fell a little bit. People generally got their work done. Why? Because people generally get their work done. There are people who don't, and there are people who will overachieve.

00;01;38;20 - 00;02;15;01
Wayne Turmel
And it all kind of averages out in the great scheme of things. But how does this apply to companies wanting to go back to the blessed before times? And I think there are. And I didn't write this down. So you have to count for me. I think there are three major things going on. Okay. Number one is companies have tons of money invested in real estate, space, equipment, all of this stuff.

00;02;15;03 - 00;02;26;11
Wayne Turmel
And when a CFO or a CEO walks into a building that is 50% empty, they have an immediate, visceral reaction, right?

00;02;26;12 - 00;02;27;06
Marisa Eikenberry
They're not getting water.

00;02;27;06 - 00;02;28;08
Wayne Turmel
On their business.

00;02;28;10 - 00;02;28;29
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;02;29;01 - 00;02;56;18
Wayne Turmel
It's not unreasonable because the question is, well, this doesn't make any sense. And here's the problem. If I have kind of negotiated that, you're going to spend three days in the office in two days out, and you can't shrink your footprint because you need space for the people who come in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, if everybody's there those days, you still need as much space as you had before.

00;02;56;20 - 00;02;57;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;02;57;09 - 00;03;25;13
Wayne Turmel
So there is a sunk cost factor to all of this. That is not unreasonable. I mean, if we're going to change the way we work, if we're going to change the size of our footprint, we need to reexamine what it means to have an office. And what does it mean to have physical space, and what should that physical space look like?

00;03;25;15 - 00;03;54;26
Wayne Turmel
Which is a really big conversation that is harder to have than, let's get people back, right? Right. It's just it's a big problem that requires heavy thought and radically changing what you do. And business is not primed for that for the most part. The second thing I think, is that it depends on the kind of business that you're in.

00;03;54;26 - 00;04;22;08
Wayne Turmel
And it's funny because Kevin and I are constantly on this list, on these lists of best remote thinkers and all that stuff. And I say that not to say, look at me, I'm on cool lists, but to say that we get lumped in with the four day work week, death to the office. Do your job on the beach kind of people.

00;04;22;08 - 00;04;25;29
Wayne Turmel
And we're really not right.

00;04;26;02 - 00;04;27;26
Marisa Eikenberry
We've talked about this before.

00;04;27;29 - 00;04;53;28
Wayne Turmel
Every business has to examine what it does and how does it serve its clients, and what kind of company does it want to be when it grows up? And you look at a company like Amazon and for all of their cool computers, computer servers and algorithms that torture artists on a regular basis, the fact of the matter is, they are a 20th century horse and buggy business.

00;04;54;00 - 00;05;04;15
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, they have warehouses full of stuff. That stuff needs to go on wagons. The wagons go to people's homes. That's their business, right?

00;05;04;17 - 00;05;05;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Right, right.

00;05;05;29 - 00;05;34;23
Wayne Turmel
And so, you know, an old school approach is not the most unreasonable thing. The third thing I think has to do with the kind of management company you want to be. And what I am going to say is information based on publicly available data. It is not. You know, Jeff Bezos does not need me to tell him how to run a business.

00;05;34;26 - 00;05;37;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Jeff Bezos does not know who we are.

00;05;37;27 - 00;05;45;24
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Well, but I'm sure his lawyers do, you know, a simple Google search can flag that or.

00;05;45;26 - 00;05;46;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;05;46;21 - 00;06;08;05
Wayne Turmel
But here's the thing. Amazon has a management style that they take pride in, which is produce or die. Do as you're told, do what we say, and nobody gets hurt. I mean, that's basically their stock. They have a 150% turnover every year.

00;06;08;07 - 00;06;10;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh I'm not sure I really like.

00;06;10;26 - 00;06;42;19
Wayne Turmel
Most of that is in there. Where every staff which are not working remotely anyway. Right. The the number is lower than that for admin and office staff, but it's still a pretty high turnover organization and that's how they choose to operate. They always have as we we in Las Vegas where there is a big Amazon presence, we like to say everybody knows a lot of people who used to work at Amazon.

00;06;42;21 - 00;06;47;05
Marisa Eikenberry
My stepdad used to work at Amazon, but we're in Indianapolis. But yes.

00;06;47;08 - 00;07;11;01
Wayne Turmel
Right. They have high turnover. It's March or die. This is how they choose to operate, and they are free to do so. I mean, it's their business, their rules. Now, you asked a question because I was paying attention. So those are the three things, right? There's kind of this legacy real estate problem, which is tied to CEO ego.

00;07;11;04 - 00;07;21;25
Wayne Turmel
There's what kind of business win. And then there is what's your general attitude towards your people? It was three. And I remember you did.

00;07;21;27 - 00;07;22;19
Marisa Eikenberry
You did.

00;07;22;22 - 00;08;02;18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So you have to start thinking about what is this going to mean in the long run? In the short term, along with the announcement that Amazon was going to do this. Announced that they were cutting their management staff by 15% and increasing the number of direct reports each manager would have. Well, it would not be the worst thing if I were at Amazon to say everybody has to come back to the office and 10 or 12% of your managers said, the heck with that, I'm going to find a job somewhere else.

00;08;02;24 - 00;08;13;21
Wayne Turmel
And they go, okay, that's done right? They insist this is not a way of laying off managers.

00;08;13;23 - 00;08;14;28
Marisa Eikenberry
But yes, in any way.

00;08;15;03 - 00;08;35;14
Wayne Turmel
Unintentional. The result is probably going to be about the same that that it also makes sense. You know, if you want to have that in office mentality, divesting yourself of the people who don't share that mentality is probably not a bad policy. I mean, you want people who are going to buy in, right?

00;08;35;17 - 00;08;36;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00;08;36;24 - 00;09;04;18
Wayne Turmel
Now, what is this going to mean long term? And this is where you start to look at other companies besides Amazon. You know, Google said, a year ago, year and a half ago. Everybody get your crap back to the office. And there was plenty of pushback to the point where, quite as it's kept more people working there every day than there used to be.

00;09;04;23 - 00;09;13;14
Wayne Turmel
But ain't all that now, you you had sent me, an interesting article about Ubisoft.

00;09;13;17 - 00;09;35;08
Marisa Eikenberry
For the gamers in the audience and the ones that do not know, Ubisoft is a very, very, very large gaming company. If you're familiar with things like Rayman or Assassin's Creed, they make those games. And yeah, to your point, like I saw this article, just the other day that employees in France are actually threatening to strike over return to office mandates.

00;09;35;09 - 00;10;06;03
Marisa Eikenberry
And at the time that we're recording this, that strike has it happened yet? But by the time you're listening to this, if it if the strike goes through, it will have already happened. So I'll be linking to a story from PC gamer about it, and I'm sure there will be updates on it as you're listening to this. But speaking of that, like, you know, we've been talking about Amazon in the US a lot here, but do you think that we're going to see more worker pushback globally against these policies, like what Ubisoft is doing in France?

00;10;06;06 - 00;10;53;24
Wayne Turmel
Well, I think that we are in and I've said this before, and people are rolling their eyes and getting tired of hearing me say it. We are in the middle of a seismic change in what it means to have a job. What does it mean to work for somebody? What does it mean to have employees? Right? All of this stuff is changing probably more dramatically than since the 1920s or 30s, when we got a 40 hour workweek and a five hour or a five day a week, schedule and people commuting this seismic change that nobody really knows where it's going to wind up.

00;10;53;26 - 00;11;17;18
Wayne Turmel
Part of it. And the Ubisoft, Ubisoft, employees. I'm I'm sorry, guys, that it's happening. I'm not surprised that it's happening in France, because France has a long history of work stoppages and using their protest, and certainly much more so than North Americans do.

00;11;17;20 - 00;11;18;15
Marisa Eikenberry


00;11;19;05 - 00;11;51;12
Wayne Turmel
But it speaks to the fact that there is a generational change. There is a change based on the type of work one does. That changes people's relationship with their employer and whether they feel like where the work gets done as important as what work gets done. I mean, if you're a coder and you're spending your time in the dark with your mother shoving food, you under the door and any hour of the day or night, you can get inspired and work on stuff.

00;11;51;14 - 00;11;58;19
Wayne Turmel
Swiping a bag at 9:00 every morning may be of questionable value.

00;11;58;21 - 00;11;59;11
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;11;59;14 - 00;12;32;21
Wayne Turmel
The other thing, and I'm verging on breaking one of our sacred rules at the cabinet. I can very group which is oh, no political. But there is a sense in the workplace right now, and every study is kind of bearing this out. As benefits start to go away for more and more employees. Boeing, for example, just announced its dropping health care for its employees.

00;12;32;24 - 00;12;45;02
Wayne Turmel
People want a sense of being able to earn something or have a perk. And one of the few negotiable bills at this moment is work flexibility.

00;12;45;05 - 00;12;47;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;12;47;09 - 00;13;14;09
Wayne Turmel
It's one of the few things that employers. Yeah. Okay. If you want to stay home Monday and Friday, knock yourself out. Are we benevolent? It's a short sighted policy. It's a short sighted policy on the part of the employees. It's a short sighted policy on the part of the employer. But it keeps people from quitting or gives people enough motivation to come and work for you.

00;13;14;12 - 00;13;37;17
Wayne Turmel
But we're in the middle of all of this chaos where it used to be that if you wanted to work in a certain field or something, there was a place that you went and did that. Now you have a few more options about where you work. What I would say about this and I babbled a lot and we've covered a lot of ground.

00;13;37;24 - 00;14;06;22
Wayne Turmel
But let me kind of boil this down to a couple of things for employers. It is going to be a matter of time before you figure out what are the things that are really important to them. What is the return on investment for having these big real estate kind of investments, and what kind of people do they want to attract?

00;14;06;23 - 00;14;27;03
Wayne Turmel
We've said before that, you know, when you say we have flexible work, or remote work, but you need to be in the office once a week. You've really said, I want the best people I can get who live within 20 minutes of the office.

00;14;27;06 - 00;14;30;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? You don't really want the best people, right?

00;14;30;07 - 00;14;57;05
Wayne Turmel
I mean, that's which is fine. That was always who they were hiring. But with remote work and the advent of, kind of dispersed work and we've reached this point where, you know, we could hire different people, we could hire a different type of employee, but not if we're not if we're stuck with that old paradigm. It is totally the company's right to do that.

00;14;57;08 - 00;15;29;14
Wayne Turmel
The golden rule, the one with the gold makes the rules right. Now I'm going to say something which is, perhaps unpopular with some of our listeners, which is what will make this work increase. Remote work is that we, as the employees, need to prove that we are worthy of it. We need proof of concept. We need proof that the employer is not giving everything up by letting us do that.

00;15;29;16 - 00;15;42;29
Wayne Turmel
A lot of the arguments that people use about remote work are, well, I want time with my family, I want this, I want that. Well that's nice. Your boss doesn't really care.

00;15;43;02 - 00;15;44;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Right. It does. It benefits.

00;15;45;00 - 00;15;50;28
Wayne Turmel
Employees. Satisfied voices are important only insofar as it affects your work.

00;15;51;00 - 00;15;53;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Well so real quick I'm going to go slightly off on.

00;15;53;06 - 00;15;54;22
Wayne Turmel
It's going to take a while.

00;15;54;24 - 00;15;55;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;15;55;23 - 00;15;56;17
Wayne Turmel
Okay.

00;15;56;19 - 00;16;16;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh I think we had a slight delay but I think it's solved now. I was just going to say on the same line as we're talking about, you know, employers and CEOs. A recent survey of CEOs actually suggests that remote work will be dead in three years. What is influencing this belief? Like, is it just wishful thinking?

00;16;16;24 - 00;16;33;03
Wayne Turmel
Mostly it's wishful thinking. I mean, there was a CEO in the UK who was famous for a microsecond for saying what we really need is 20% unemployment. So all these people will remember who they are.

00;16;33;05 - 00;16;36;19
Marisa Eikenberry
I remember us talking about that in a past episode on like.

00;16;36;24 - 00;17;09;08
Wayne Turmel
So there's some of that. Here's what it's going to take. And I don't know who's going to do it. I don't know how they're going to step up when somebody becomes the next Google, when somebody becomes the next big company with a remote first policy. People will start to pay attention on a larger basis. Right now, the companies that are successful remote first are very niche in terms of the industry that they're in, and they tend to be fairly small.

00;17;09;09 - 00;17;29;05
Wayne Turmel
All they tend to be startups. When a company reaches mega status and works in this new way, follows this new God help me, I use the word paradigm, then it will start because people follow the leaders.

00;17;29;08 - 00;17;30;17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Right.

00;17;30;19 - 00;17;47;09
Wayne Turmel
And so that's what it's going to take. Somebody has got to really break out of the box. Or remote work is going to continue to team by team, organization by organization. Bit by bit. And it's never going to 100% takeover.

00;17;47;12 - 00;17;49;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Of course. Like we don't expect it.

00;17;49;13 - 00;18;11;12
Wayne Turmel
They're still going to be. Well if you listen to people out there everything is binary right. Either. It's death to the office and burn your ties, and you never have to go back into the office again. Seize the means of production. Or. That was a lovely little experiment. Get your butt back to your desk.

00;18;11;14 - 00;18;12;01
Marisa Eikenberry
That's fair.

00;18;12;07 - 00;18;44;10
Wayne Turmel
And I don't think it's going to be that simple, but our goal in in with this show, and I hope our listeners understand this. Our goal is just whatever the situation is, whatever your situation is, find a way to make it work right. Make some good decisions about your own attitudes, your own behaviors, and your own choices so that you can navigate this crazy changing workplace and keep body, soul, and spirit intact in the weasels away from your ankles.

00;18;44;13 - 00;18;46;04
Wayne Turmel
That's what we're here for.

00;18;46;06 - 00;19;08;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay? Right. So, Wayne, thank you so much for this conversation. And there was a lot of stuff that I would have loved to get to, but we do not have time. So probably another show. And before we go, the second edition of the Long-Distance leader is now available. This updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

00;19;08;03 - 00;19;31;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Kevin Barry and Wayne Trammell show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Order your copy now! At Long Distance Work life.com/ldl and strengthen your remote leadership skills. Today. And thank you so much for listening to Long Distance Worklife for Shownotes transcripts and other resources.

00;19;31;10 - 00;19;53;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit Long Distance Work life.com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating and review. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and AI to tackle in a future episode.

00;19;53;28 - 00;19;59;06
Marisa Eikenberry
We would love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us. And as Wayne, like, say, don't let the whistles get you down.

00;19;59;09 - 00;20;03;02
Unknown


00;20;03;04 - 00;20;04;29
Unknown



Timestamps

0:00 Intro
1:00 Amazon’s Return-to-Office Policy Explained
3:20 Why Some Companies Are Going Back to the Office
5:30 Real Estate and CEO Ego: What’s Really Driving the Mandates
10:00 Global Pushback: Ubisoft and Strikes Over Office Returns
13:00 Is Remote Work Really Going Away?
16:00 What Does This Mean for Employers and Employees?
18:30 Remote Work Isn’t Dead Yet: Final Thoughts

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Guests, Hybrid Work, Working Remotely

Flexible Workspaces and the Future of Work with Sam Rosen

Wayne Turmel is joined by Sam Rosen, the founder of Deskpass, to explore how the office landscape has changed in recent years. Sam shares his journey from opening one of Chicago’s first co-working spaces to developing tools that connect companies and remote workers with flexible workspaces. They discuss the evolving role of offices, how companies can make strategic real estate decisions, and the benefits of offering co-working options to remote and hybrid teams. Sam also dives into the differences between designing workspaces with a human-centered approach versus the traditional real estate mindset. Tune in to discover how you can leverage flexible spaces to improve productivity and retain top talent.

Key Takeaways

  • Flexible workspaces provide a valuable alternative to traditional offices, offering professional environments tailored to diverse work needs.
  • A human-centered design approach prioritizes worker needs over merely filling office space, unlike traditional real estate perspectives.
  • Companies are reducing their office footprints to save costs while using co-working spaces to maintain access to professional environments.
  • Proximity and convenience are key benefits of co-working spaces, making them ideal when working from home isn't suitable.
  • In-person meetings should be reserved for deep collaboration or cultural reinforcement, with a focus on asynchronous work whenever possible.
  • Successful remote companies prioritize culture, communication tools, and processes over physical office space.
  • Access to flexible workspaces helps attract and retain talent, expanding the hiring pool and supporting employees' varied work preferences.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;27 - 00;00;37;23
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Long Distance Worklife, the podcast where we attempt to help you thrive. Survive, generally keep the Weasels Hat Bay when we are dealing with remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Trammell. I am the subject matter for remote work and the evolving workplace at the Kevin Eikenberry Group. My usual partner and producer, Marissa is not here today.

00;00;37;25 - 00;01;03;11
Wayne Turmel
The good news is that means we have an interview with a fabulous guest, in this case, Sam Rosen from Desk Pass, who is going to talk to us about the changes that digital work have wrought upon us over the last couple of years. And so, with no further ado, joining us from Chicago is Sam Rosen. Hi, Sam.

00;01;03;13 - 00;01;05;24
Sam Rosen
Hi, Wayne. Thanks for having me, man.

00;01;05;26 - 00;01;13;07
Wayne Turmel
Thank you for being had a, real quick. Who are you and what steps pass and why do we care?

00;01;13;10 - 00;01;38;02
Sam Rosen
Good question. I'm sam, and, I run a little business called that space I've been in, sort of the intersection of design and technology and where in how we work for about 15 years. So I started by, started a branding design agency and then opened the first co-working space in Chicago, where there are about 300 in the whole world now.

00;01;38;02 - 00;02;05;06
Sam Rosen
There's 40, 50,000. And since then, I've been building tools and technology around this problem. So today, I work on desktops. I'm the founder of that space. And that space is a tool that really connects individuals and companies with thousands and thousands of fantastic, flexible workspaces, co-working spaces, you know, places to book a desk for a day, meeting for an hour, private office, all on demand.

00;02;05;06 - 00;02;06;26
Sam Rosen
And that's that's what I do.

00;02;06;28 - 00;02;22;17
Wayne Turmel
All right. So whenever anybody creates a technology or does anything like that, they're clearly trying to solve for a problem. So what was the problem you were trying to solve for, with past?

00;02;22;20 - 00;02;50;09
Sam Rosen
Yeah. You know, it's funny because a lot of people in this space now, come from finance and come from real estate. And I've always come from design, and just trying to solve problems for humans. So, coming across co-working really, really early realized that was a really interesting solution to offer a place for people who want to work but necessarily don't work for the same company and just are looking for a space to get work done nearby.

00;02;50;09 - 00;03;19;08
Sam Rosen
So, and I found that to be really interesting and a new problem. And then the, the other problem was, and I think this is more clear than ever, is, offices have always been pretty empty. Offices are traditionally fairly underutilized, and that's one of the biggest asset classes in the world. So the opportunity to create something out of empty office space and share it with people so they can be happy and get good work done, is seemed like a good problem to solve.

00;03;19;10 - 00;03;39;16
Wayne Turmel
Now. You said something a moment ago, which I've dealt with remote work for 25 years. I should have thought of this, and for some reason I had a blinding flash of the obvious, which is it makes sense for real estate people to get involved in this, because there's all these offices sitting empty, and how are we going to find uses for them?

00;03;39;19 - 00;03;51;10
Wayne Turmel
What in your mind is the difference between coming at it from a real estate standpoint, where it's desks and rooms and whatever, and a design standpoint?

00;03;51;12 - 00;04;19;09
Sam Rosen
You know, I think the perspective we've always had is like, who's way, what is what is waiting live? Who does he live with? Where can he focus and get work done? And how do you build a really brilliant environment for Wayne to get his best work done, irrespective of everything else? And I think often folks that come from real estate and finance are just they're they're trying to put pegs and holes, right.

00;04;19;09 - 00;04;51;17
Sam Rosen
Which is there's empty office space. Let's fill it up. And I think for me, from the design perspective, I think for a long time the experience for workers was really driven around, you know, the the bank that owns the building, the management company that manages the building, you know, supporting the owner of the company that owns the company and building a financial arrangement that works for all those parties, but less so, like Wayne and like what works best for Wayne today.

00;04;51;19 - 00;05;19;23
Sam Rosen
And I think that's where I come from is like, how do you everyone has different needs as workers depending on what company they work for, what role they're in. I got two little kiddos that live in the suburbs, you know, like my kids have Covid today. Like my needs are different today than yesterday, right. And, and I think that's what I'm really interested is solving problems around the human and less around like X, Y, Z Corp and you know, and x, y, z bank.

00;05;19;26 - 00;05;24;20
Wayne Turmel
Okay. So we've done our burn the patriarchy death to make.

00;05;24;22 - 00;05;25;02
Sam Rosen


00;05;25;04 - 00;05;57;25
Wayne Turmel
Peace with this. So let's get really practical. A lot of people, I think, think of I'm either working at home or I'm in the office. What are some of the advantages of these kind of third spaces? Because to me, having other humans around is not the most beneficial piece of this. Yeah. But I have used spaces like this before, so, you know, if somebody is thinking about when does this make sense?

00;05;57;25 - 00;06;01;07
Wayne Turmel
When does it not? What's the the answer there.

00;06;01;09 - 00;06;23;18
Sam Rosen
Yeah. Look, I think there's a lot of things that people will say about what makes a great workspace. But I think the underlying thing is proximity distance. Right. Like if I can't work from home because my kids are home or I don't have a suitable work environment, like trying to find a place close to me that's convenient to me where I don't have to commute or schlep or go.

00;06;23;18 - 00;06;49;19
Sam Rosen
That's a that's an underlying, really important piece. I think. Other than that is not all, but most of these co-working spaces and flexible workspaces, they're like very purposefully built for work. So they tend to be really thoughtful work environments that are built and amenities better than the average office. So, you know, coffee, tea, events, different types of workspaces.

00;06;49;26 - 00;07;09;10
Sam Rosen
I think these often are nicer workspaces than the average workspace. And then the last thing I'd say is I totally connect with what you're saying, which is I don't, you know, like, people need different things and they often need different things at different times. Like some days I need a quiet place to do a podcast or to work on a deck.

00;07;09;11 - 00;07;31;12
Sam Rosen
Right. And then sometimes I'm looking for community. I'm looking for inspiration. I want to be around other people. So the value of a network like that space, or just co-working spaces in general, as you can get exactly what you're looking for typically, and not like a one size fits all solution like your home or HQ.

00;07;31;14 - 00;08;17;11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's always been helpful when I'm traveling because the hotel room is not always conducive to getting work done. Between, you know, housekeeping banging on the door and, bad Wi-Fi and, you know, whatever. Yeah. So that's when I've done it. As we move more and more to hybrid work and companies are shrinking their physical footprint and doing stuff, and how if I'm the CEO of a company, you know, the notion of paying for a third space, if I'm already paying for an office, might be a bit of a tough sell.

00;08;17;11 - 00;08;19;19
Wayne Turmel
What would you tell that CEO?

00;08;19;22 - 00;08;48;05
Sam Rosen
Yeah. So I think the paradigm of office is changing in a fundamental way. Right. Like one office for everybody to solve everybody's problems. I think is the old paradigm. And I think what we found there was those offices were generally pretty inefficient, generally underutilized and expensive to maintain. I am at the office today. Like, I love them, like I believe in the whole business of selling office.

00;08;48;05 - 00;09;15;29
Sam Rosen
Right. So I think what we're seeing and the thesis that I really have in this space is this notion of office as an ecosystem. And we talked to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of companies that are thinking about this. Every company is different, different employees, different geographies, different requirements. But I think the prevailing trend that I like I've seen is, companies are, changing as leasing decisions are coming up.

00;09;15;29 - 00;09;39;19
Sam Rosen
Right? They're thinking about, okay, I have all this space. Are people coming to the office? How utilized is it? And they're not abandoning the office full sale. They're typically taking less space. They're reducing their their size of their leased or owned real estate, and they're making it more efficient. They're saying, what is the purpose of this space? This is person of the space together to sell, to do R&D.

00;09;39;22 - 00;10;00;17
Sam Rosen
And let's have fewer square feet, but let's make them better. So people want to use them. And then not mandate that people are there all the time, every day. And instead of saying you have, you can work from office or you can work from home. We're seeing companies become more inclusive and saying, we will meet you where you are, what do you need?

00;10;00;19 - 00;10;18;17
Sam Rosen
And let me help support you with what you need. The value of a a platform like this fast and not to get salesy here is it's on demand pay as you go. So what companies are doing is they're not saying here's another office we're paying for near your house. They're saying work from where you need to get work done.

00;10;18;17 - 00;10;39;06
Sam Rosen
And I've given you a $500 budget that if you want to use it, you can use any of these spaces and we'll pay for it. And then it gives companies the ability to learn like, well, what are my employees really? What? How are they really using space? And how should this, help me address my my work space and strategy in the future?

00;10;39;08 - 00;10;59;06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, and there are times when you need to have a meeting, but, you know, you don't have a space. I mean, to pay 100, 150 bucks for a meeting room for an hour that everybody can go to and then leave, is probably not a bad investment.

00;10;59;09 - 00;11;01;00
Sam Rosen
And I'd argue.

00;11;01;00 - 00;11;02;10
Wayne Turmel
It's in tonight's meetings.

00;11;02;13 - 00;11;26;14
Sam Rosen
A lot less expensive to have meeting rooms when you need them than a meeting room in your, you know, building that's empty, 90% of that 80% of the time or whatever it might be. So I think people do find that like, flexible solutions tend to be a lot more cost effective than owning heating, maintaining space. That's that's not used.

00;11;26;14 - 00;11;27;00
Sam Rosen
Well.

00;11;27;03 - 00;11;47;26
Wayne Turmel
What are some of the for people that have never, you know, taken advantage of these kinds of situations before? What are some of the ways people use them? Like why would somebody use a space when, you know, they have a home office?

00;11;47;28 - 00;12;19;16
Sam Rosen
So I mean, post through Covid like some of the, the big trends we've seen. So sales teams, right. Like bigger companies that have sales offices. So have like tens or hundreds of sales offices that were never that utilized, we're finding them divesting themselves from those spaces and saying, look, instead of having this office that's kind of far away from where you actually live, we're getting rid of it, but we're going to give you access to desks and meeting rooms and offices as you need.

00;12;19;19 - 00;12;54;25
Sam Rosen
So we see a lot of meetings, right? Like sales meetings, regional meetings, quarterly meetings, client meetings where people are leveraging the the network on demand for that. And I think another big pieces, I think Covid helped companies realize that being co-located to where the office and HQ is isn't as necessary as they thought. So they might have had employees that moved away from Chicago or whatever city are in and now live in Denver or Vegas or wherever it might be, and want to offer something to them rather than saying sayonara, right.

00;12;54;25 - 00;13;15;16
Sam Rosen
Or they're looking for talent and they're instead of just casting a net that's around their geography, they're saying, let's just find great people irrespective of where they live, and then let's support them with what they need. And that's where we see a lot of use with, I think these flexible workspaces and networks like ours.

00;13;15;19 - 00;13;25;20
Wayne Turmel
As CEO, what's the you know, where are your CEO hat for the moment and rejoined the patriarchy.

00;13;25;20 - 00;13;29;13
Sam Rosen
And I'm in,

00;13;29;16 - 00;13;46;01
Wayne Turmel
What is the discussion that you would have with your fellow fellow CEOs? What are the 2 or 3 things that they really need to think about in terms of their offices, in terms of flexible spaces like desk space?

00;13;46;04 - 00;14;12;09
Sam Rosen
Yeah. I mean, I think like the, you know, there is a huge cost savings advantage to leveraging networks like this and taking less fixed real estate and being more flexible. I think like that's a big piece. I think the other advantages to, to remote work is, is right, is talent, both acquiring new talent but also retaining great talent.

00;14;12;09 - 00;14;37;22
Sam Rosen
So like and this is, I think a, you know, that's what these tools are really great at. The last thing I'd say is, you know, some of the pushback you get, in selling what, what we sell and talking to folks is they believe the best work gets done in the office. They believe in, like, the watercooler. And getting people around the table is like, how great work is done.

00;14;37;24 - 00;15;10;11
Sam Rosen
And I I'm very much an advocate of in-person work and getting people together. I think that is work. Great work gets done, but I don't think it gets done there all the time. And I think that, like companies that have been really successful at remote work, like Nvidia, right, like the fastest growing American company right now, like Atlassian, I mean, there's a million really strong examples of fully remote company are very hybrid companies.

00;15;10;13 - 00;15;47;19
Sam Rosen
It's not about workspace, it's about culture. And it's about the having the right tools and the right processes in place as an organization, to like, effectively communicate. And I think those companies are really great because they have the best co-working spaces or the best real estate strategy. It's that they've recognized what's happening in our labor markets and with like the future of the world and where things are trending and they're building the right tools, the right culture, the right processes in-house to get the best result.

00;15;47;19 - 00;15;54;18
Sam Rosen
And that's why those companies are thriving, not because of like, the the watercooler.

00;15;54;20 - 00;16;09;12
Wayne Turmel
I'm going to leave you with one question, and this is just forget the fact that this is what you do for a living as a CEO. When do you decide an in-person meeting is necessary and when do you not?

00;16;09;15 - 00;16;36;12
Sam Rosen
It's interesting because I think of it more as asynchronous meetings like asynchronous work and synchronous work, right? What work does it need to be a meeting at all? And it's actually better if it's a host or it's, it's a, you know, like in the tools and then, okay, which meetings should be synchronous. Right. And I think okay, out of those meetings, which ones?

00;16;36;14 - 00;17;19;12
Sam Rosen
Should be in person. And I think when there's, a huge amount of work to get through, like it's a big meaty problem. I think that's when getting together really, really helps. And I think culturally, like when you feel like the culture you're building is struggling, like the, the and good pep or kind of shot in the arm is let's get people together and remember, like we're humans, like we're not just these little people in these boxes and like, it's the little things outside of just the work of just like learning about your people you work with, building empathy around them.

00;17;19;12 - 00;17;30;19
Sam Rosen
So I think, like, that's the kind of the framework that I like to use is like, does this have to be a meeting at all? And if it's a meeting, are we going to get a lot more squeezed by by doing it in person?

00;17;30;22 - 00;17;55;15
Wayne Turmel
Digging it. Thank you much. Sam Rosen desk pass. We will have links to salmon desk pass and all of that good stuff in our, show notes. I am going to remove Sam from the meeting for just a moment while I talk to you. And I remind you that if you enjoyed the show, if you continue to enjoy the show, please like and subscribe.

00;17;55;15 - 00;18;20;02
Wayne Turmel
You know how all this social media podcasting stuff works. I would urge you to check out, Kevin in my new book, The Long Distance Leader. And I know you're saying Wayne, the long distance leader, has been out for six years. Actually, this is a new, updated edition. It is the long distance leader. Revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid leadership.

00;18;20;02 - 00;18;53;12
Wayne Turmel
We urge you to check that out. And you can, of course, get show notes, transcripts, past episodes, all that good stuff. Check out long distance work life.com. If you have ideas for shows, if you have, questions, comments, complaints, vicious personal attacks, you can find Marissa Renee on LinkedIn or our email, which is here on the screen below my face.

00;18;53;12 - 00;19;08;26
Wayne Turmel
For those of you enduring that, that's it. It's, been another episode. Thank you so much for joining us on the long distance work life. Marissa will be back next week, and don't let the weasels get you down.

00;19;08;28 - 00;19;21;21
Unknown
Hey.

00;19;21;23 - 00;19;22;20
Unknown
You know.


Featured Guest

Name: Sam Rosen

Bio: Sam Rosen is the co-founder and CEO of Deskpass, an online marketplace connecting teams and individuals to thousands of coworking spaces and conference rooms across the country. A creative problem solver, Sam's passion for coworking began with co-founding The Coop, Chicago’s first coworking space, and he has since become a recognized entrepreneur and voice in the design community. Prior to Deskpass, he co-founded The Post Family art collaborative and One Design Company, a digital branding agency that blends research, communication, and design for top brands.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Sam Rosen and Deskpass
01:03 Sam’s Background in Co-Working and Design
02:05 The Evolution of Office Spaces and Remote Work
03:19 Design vs. Real Estate: What’s the Difference?
04:51 Advantages of Co-Working Spaces
07:09 How to Use Deskpass for Remote Work Travel
08:17 Making Flexible Workspaces Work for Your Company
10:00 Real-Life Examples of Deskpass in Action
13:15 Keeping Culture Alive in Remote Teams
17:19 Deciding When to Meet In Person
19:08 Conclusion and Resources

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Mastering Hybrid Coaching: Avoiding Proximity Bias in Remote Teams
Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Mastering Hybrid Coaching: Avoiding Proximity Bias in Remote Teams

Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry tackle the challenge of proximity bias and its impact on coaching in remote and hybrid teams. Proximity bias, where leaders give preferential treatment to those physically closer, can skew coaching opportunities and development. Wayne and Marisa discuss how to overcome this bias and ensure remote team members receive equal attention and guidance. You’ll also learn practical tips on how to leverage technology, such as Zoom, Slack, and Teams, to create more effective and meaningful coaching experiences.

Key Takeaways

  • Defining Proximity Bias: What it is and why it matters, not just for leaders but also for peers and teams.
  • Coaching Differences: How coaching remote employees differs from in-person coaching and why proximity plays a significant role.
  • The Importance of Regular Feedback: How coaching should be proactive, consistent, and more formal in remote settings to avoid isolation.
  • Leveraging Technology: Tips on using tools like Zoom and Slack to enrich one-on-one coaching experiences and maintain engagement.
  • Avoiding Bias in Hybrid Teams: Strategies to ensure that in-office employees don’t get favored over their remote counterparts during coaching sessions.
  • The Emotional Impact: How not receiving feedback or coaching can be demotivating for remote employees, and what leaders can do to avoid this.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;27 - 00;00;08;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to.

00;00;08;18 - 00;00;20;00
Marisa Eikenberry
The Long-Distance worksite, where we help you live, work, and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Russ, I can be a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Trimble. Hi, Lynn.

00;00;20;03 - 00;00;22;05
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marissa. How are you?

00;00;22;11 - 00;00;23;28
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00;00;24;01 - 00;00;27;01
Wayne Turmel
I'm fine. Even though we're nowhere near each other.

00;00;27;03 - 00;00;57;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Right, right. You in Vegas and me in Indianapolis said we're going to kind of talk about that today, as we do every time on our remote show. But today, specifically, we're talking about coaching and differences between coaching in-person and remote and how to try to make those similar and avoiding proximity bias. So one of the first things that I do want to start with, and we've talked about this a lot on the show, but for people who have never listened to an episode of ours before, maybe we should define what is proximity bias.

00;00;57;08 - 00;01;35;21
Wayne Turmel
Proximity bias as it relates to leaders. Okay, is and I'm looking at this very fancy I generated definition and okay, like all I generated definitions I want to go. That's not entirely it. It says and I quote proximity bias is a cognitive bias that occurs when people have positions of power, favor employees who are physically closer to them, and that includes things like promotions and coaching opportunities and an unintentional exclusion for those who aren't there, and all of that good stuff.

00;01;35;21 - 00;02;02;03
Wayne Turmel
The problem with this definition, of course, is that it happens not just in leadership, it happens in life, and it happens among peers. On teams. So when we're talking proximity bias, yes, in this case, because we're going to be discussing coaching its leaders, but it's also peers and colleagues and stuff like that.

00;02;02;06 - 00;02;11;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. So how does proximity bias specifically like affect the coaching experiences of remote employees as opposed to ones in person?

00;02;11;08 - 00;02;41;12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, well, proximity bias affects coaching in some obvious ways, right? An obvious way is if I'm in the office and I see somebody doing something incorrectly or wrong or even really well, and I want to give them some coaching and some feedback on that, my brain says, I see this happening and I should respond, the problem, of course, with remote workers is you often don't see things happening in real time.

00;02;41;19 - 00;03;11;24
Wayne Turmel
You see them long after the fact, and they generally need to be pretty dramatic in order for your brain to go, you know, I should pick up the phone. I should type them a message. I should make a point of mentioning this. So coaching happens much more spontaneously, much more frequently, and often better in person than it does remotely.

00;03;11;24 - 00;03;49;09
Wayne Turmel
And the ultimate impact of that is more than you would think. Because when you are remote and you perceive that other people are getting coaching and attention that you are not getting, it can be rather disheartening. And the. Well, of course, but when you're the one who is guilty of the bias, you often don't see that. For example, you know, out of sight, out of mind to a lot of leaders is, you know, unless there's a problem, I'm just going to let Marissa do her thing.

00;03;49;11 - 00;03;51;29
Marisa Eikenberry
And for some reason, you're okay with that.

00;03;52;01 - 00;04;27;00
Wayne Turmel
For some people, they're okay with that. But even people who are really good at their jobs and prefer to be left alone to do them need a little love. They need some attention. They need positive reinforcement and and occasionally correction. Because a lot of us who work remotely and we've talked before about the Wiley Coyote moments, where, you know, it's like the Roadrunner cartoons where you run, run, run, run, run and you're way off the cliff before you realize that you're off the cliff.

00;04;27;02 - 00;04;31;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. But if you would have had, you know, weekly or biweekly meetings, you may have if.

00;04;31;19 - 00;04;59;23
Wayne Turmel
You were getting regular feedback, which is ultimately what all of this comes down to is feedback loops, right? And proximity bias tends to have really strong feedback loops with the people with whom you are physically proximate and weaker, and less frequent feedback loops with people that you do not interact with in a rich way nearly as often.

00;04;59;25 - 00;05;14;10
Marisa Eikenberry
So what are some signs that a manager might be showing proximity bias during one on one? So if they are, you know, actually meeting. But how might those one on ones differ a little bit if they're showing proximity bias?

00;05;14;12 - 00;05;48;06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think there are a bunch of ways. And I'll just tell you because everything ultimately is about me. It used to make me crazy with managers who, if they were in the office, would call people in. They'd have a cup of coffee, they'd sit across the desk, they do their thing. But because I was usually on the other end of the country or traveling or they were traveling, I would get my coaching conversations on a staticky cell phone in a busy airport lobby.

00;05;48;08 - 00;05;50;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, it was an afterthought.

00;05;50;12 - 00;06;22;20
Wayne Turmel
It was, well, we got to do this. It's schedule. Let's do it. And so there wasn't time to connect. There wasn't the visual component where you could see that somebody was stressed or not. You basically because you're trying to drown out the distractions around you run from a checklist. And so a lot of those one on ones were not coaching opportunities so much as they were check ins on tasks.

00;06;22;22 - 00;06;23;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;06;23;06 - 00;06;25;06
Wayne Turmel
Which is important.

00;06;25;09 - 00;06;26;01
Marisa Eikenberry
But it's not the whole.

00;06;26;07 - 00;06;52;20
Wayne Turmel
Coaching. Coaching is more than that. Coaching is not just having a one on one coaching conversation or conversation. Coaching is a very specific thing. It involves feedback. It involves both performance and development. So it's not just this is what you're doing, but what would you like to be doing right? What would you like to be doing better? How can I help you do that?

00;06;52;22 - 00;07;25;28
Wayne Turmel
Is true coaching. It's not just feedback right. So and that's one that's a very obvious one. I think the other thing is that coaching remotely by definition is going to be more formal and needs to be planned, which means there are big coaching moments. Okay. But there's not a lot of that spontaneous in the hallway giving somebody a thumbs up when you hear them on the phone, doing a great job with a customer.

00;07;26;00 - 00;07;45;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. That's fair. So, you know, you were talking a second ago about your old coaching conversations where, you know, staticky cell phones and things like that. And obviously we now have tools like Zoom and Slack huddles and Microsoft Teams that give that visual and help make things a little bit easier, even if it isn't quite the same way.

00;07;45;10 - 00;07;53;09
Marisa Eikenberry
So how can technology help to kind of create a level playing field during one on ones between remote and in-office employees?

00;07;53;11 - 00;08;25;17
Wayne Turmel
Sure. Well, we have talked a lot on this show about the importance of richness and scope and understanding when you use which right. It's fair to say that coaching should be an extremely rich experience. It doesn't mean you can't send an ad a girl over over slack or something like that. But in general, coaching, requires a little bit more attention.

00;08;25;20 - 00;09;13;08
Wayne Turmel
And, and so that's part of it. So so the richer technologies are probably helpful. The other thing and not enough coaches do this, I think, is when you're on teams or whatever you're on, is the ability to share data so that you are not just staring at each other's faces, but you're actually looking at numbers and saying, you know, if I say you're not hitting your numbers or you were a little off this month, that's very different than looking at a spreadsheet that shows exactly how much you were off relative to the month before or the last couple of months, and it makes it more real when it's just face to face.

00;09;13;15 - 00;09;17;10
Wayne Turmel
It's very easy for coaching to become emotional.

00;09;17;14 - 00;09;17;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;09;18;00 - 00;09;33;19
Wayne Turmel
And emotional in good ways, but also emotional in ways of becoming defensive or, you know, putting on a front or whatever. And and that's for both the coach and the coach.

00;09;33;21 - 00;09;35;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Coach, of course.

00;09;35;05 - 00;09;37;10
Wayne Turmel
The person being coached. Okay.

00;09;37;12 - 00;09;48;01
Marisa Eikenberry
With that. You know, are there some things that managers can be doing, like to, enhance that a little bit during one on ones.

00;09;48;03 - 00;10;20;00
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I'm not going to make this whole thing a shameless plug for the new book, the new old book, but in the Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership, which is the updated version. One of the things that isn't updated a whole lot is the section on coaching, because it's the same as it's been. It's funny, one of the critiques we got of the book is, well, there's all this stuff about coaching, but it's not specific to remote and hybrid.

00;10;20;02 - 00;10;36;25
Wayne Turmel
And that is correct, because one of the things that we don't do well enough, even in person, is coaching. And there's no evidence that says we're going to do it better without the visual and approximation cues. And those sorts of things.

00;10;36;27 - 00;10;37;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;10;37;22 - 00;11;10;23
Wayne Turmel
But there are some things that need to happen. And a big one is when you are coaching, you need to check your beliefs because it's very easy to. And this is part of proximity bias. If you see people busily working, you assume that they're always busily working. And that tells you something about that person, right? If you feel positive towards them, you are inclined to cut them slack when something goes wrong because you see them working.

00;11;10;25 - 00;11;24;23
Wayne Turmel
When you are dealing with somebody who is surrounded by white space and you don't see everything that's going on around them. While we want to assume positive intent.

00;11;24;27 - 00;11;25;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;11;25;15 - 00;11;56;15
Wayne Turmel
We don't always. Because if I've worked with Morris a long enough, there is a part of me that goes, you know what she's like. And and that colors how we approach our coaching. And over time, if we don't check those beliefs, if we don't stop and ask ourselves if the information we're getting or the impression we're getting is accurate, we start to act on those beliefs by default.

00;11;56;17 - 00;12;17;28
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, we've talked about this in previous episodes too, but because, you know, you can't see somebody, maybe their performance is down this month. And you know, you notice that. So you just assume, oh, they're lazy. But if you had been seeing them you would notice like they're stressed out, they're overworked, they're burned out. They've got something going on at home that's affecting stuff.

00;12;17;28 - 00;12;22;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And you have no idea if you're not checking in like that.

00;12;22;06 - 00;12;49;18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And so, you know, a coaching conversation actually has several parts. And one of the most important, you just said it and we kind of glossed over that part, okay. Is at the beginning of the conversation when we say, how are you? We made the correct response with the correct response is, oh, I am fine. Let us please get to this meeting that I don't really want to have.

00;12;49;18 - 00;12;51;02
Wayne Turmel
But you have called.

00;12;51;05 - 00;12;51;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;12;51;23 - 00;12;52;20
Wayne Turmel
Right.

00;12;52;22 - 00;12;54;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;12;54;02 - 00;13;22;11
Wayne Turmel
And, and and so and I'm sure I've said this before because I'm mildly obsessed with it. How are you? Is both a greeting and a request for information. Right. And a good coaching conversation starts with the request for information. Yes. The second thing that the coaching conversation does, and hopefully over time, the person understands that that is a legit request for information, right?

00;13;22;11 - 00;13;29;14
Wayne Turmel
When I say to you, how are you doing? You are generally pretty forthcoming with me about how are you doing?

00;13;29;17 - 00;13;34;01
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, we have that trust established, right? Like, I just I don't have to trust anybody.

00;13;34;03 - 00;14;05;19
Wayne Turmel
Right. But we have that trust established. I have demonstrated in the past that I am actually willing to listen. I give a hoot. And and so, I mean, we started we start every conversation with how's it going? How you doing? Is, you know, what's going on in your world. But the other thing that a good coaching conversation does, this is different than the sports model coaching that we often think of, where the coach tells you stuff right.

00;14;05;21 - 00;14;06;22
Marisa Eikenberry


00;14;06;24 - 00;14;32;28
Wayne Turmel
Nobody sees Phil Jackson. Ask Michael Jordan what's going on out there. You see Phil talking to Jordan right. You have these guys that was maybe the oldest white guy reference I could have made there. But but a good coaching conversation lets the other person speak first. Yeah right. What's going on. What would you like to talk about?

00;14;33;03 - 00;14;57;12
Wayne Turmel
And the reason is very simple. I can come in saying I need to give Billy Bob feedback on this thing that isn't work, and that's fine, right? Because we need to get his performance up. So I'm going to coach him. But as you alluded to earlier, let's find out what's going on with Billy Bob. And one of the really important things is does Billy Bob know there's a problem?

00;14;57;15 - 00;15;27;01
Wayne Turmel
That's right. If I say, tell me about your numbers last week, oh, it's no big deal, blah, blah, blah. If I say, tell me about your numbers last month. And Billy Bob goes, oh, God, you wouldn't believe it. It's such a okay. Until he events, he is not going to be able to hear my feedback. If I think that he's in denial, I'm going to give him different feedback than I would if he is guilt ridden and knows that there is a problem, right?

00;15;27;01 - 00;15;57;02
Wayne Turmel
Because he is guilt ridden and knows that there is a problem, he probably wants to get better. And I am going to approach that coaching conversation different than I will. If he doesn't think there's a problem at all. Well, it's really important for me to know where the coached person is psychologically, mentally in terms of the problem, because that's going to radically dictate how we have that conversation.

00;15;57;04 - 00;16;16;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, it's interesting that you're saying this too, because it's one of those things that like, I, I mean, I've been working for the Kevin like Burger for ten years, right? And I did not realize that almost every conversation I've had with any manager that I've had has been like that. The one on one started off with, okay, I have some things for you, but let's start with you first.

00;16;16;29 - 00;16;35;06
Marisa Eikenberry
What do you have for me? And then and sometimes it's the same stuff that's on their list. But it was just, you know, I mean, I have a biweekly meeting with, you know, my manager now, and it's always what's on your list first. And it didn't occur to me until now that it's like, oh, yeah, well, like that let me lead the conversation first for a little bit.

00;16;35;08 - 00;17;02;07
Wayne Turmel
Well, you know, we both have lists, right? Right. The manager here has a Kevin has a waiting list. Right. These are the things I need to talk to Wayne about. And Wayne has a Kevin list. And it is an actual physical running list that I keep. And if what is on the top of Kevin's list is not what's on the top of mine, I'm going to be responsive to what Kevin's telling me.

00;17;02;07 - 00;17;15;18
Wayne Turmel
But in the back of my head I'm going, yeah, but what I really want to talk about is right, right, right. Or what I really think is important is this. And I may not be fully in the game.

00;17;15;20 - 00;17;18;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, it may be something that's not on Kevin's radar.

00;17;18;29 - 00;17;49;04
Wayne Turmel
Right. So here we are running radically out of time. And most of what we have talked about is coaching, because coaching is coaching. And the nuances of doing it remotely are important. There not the biggest things in the world, but they matter. The only thing before we wrap up is that in hybrid hybrid coaching, if you've got people couple days in the week, blah blah blah, choose when to do it in person.

00;17;49;04 - 00;18;05;27
Wayne Turmel
And coaching in person is almost always more valuable than coaching at a distance. So if you can schedule your time and arrange your schedules so that if you are in the office together, that's when that stuff happens.

00;18;05;29 - 00;18;25;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Have it be as rich as possible. Of course. So Wayne, thank you so much for this. And I really hope that our listeners got a lot out of this. But before we go, the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is now available, and this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

00;18;25;27 - 00;18;56;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Kevin and Wayne show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale, and order your copy now! At long distance work life.com/l d l and strengthen your remote leadership skills today. And thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources, make sure to visit Long Distance Work life.com and if you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes.

00;18;56;17 - 00;19;12;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And while you're there, make sure to give us a rating and review your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. And feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes. Let us know you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00;19;12;06 - 00;19;17;23
Marisa Eikenberry
We would love to hear from you. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let his weasels get you down.

00;19;17;25 - 00;19;23;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Hey.

00;19;23;07 - 00;19;31;26
Marisa Eikenberry
There.

00;19;31;29 - 00;19;32;07
Marisa Eikenberry
You.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro
00:27 What is Proximity Bias?
01:35 How Proximity Bias Affects Coaching
03:11 Differences Between In-Person and Remote Coaching
05:14 Signs of Proximity Bias in One-on-Ones
07:45 Using Technology to Enhance Remote Coaching
09:48 Creating a Level Playing Field with Remote Tools
10:48 Coaching Conversations: Feedback and Emotional Dynamics
12:22 The Importance of Trust in Coaching
14:05 How to Start a Good Coaching Conversation
17:49 Final Thoughts on Hybrid Coaching
18:25 Long-Distance Leader Book Promotion
18:56 Outro

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Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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