Busting the Myths of Remote Work

00:00:08:02 - 00:00:26:14
Wayne Turmel
Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Long-Distance Work Life Podcast, the place where we discuss what it takes to work and thrive and survive and keep the weasels at bay in remote and hybrid work. With me is my co-host and buddy Marisa.

00:00:26:14 - 00:00:27:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Hey, everybody.

00:00:27:05 - 00:01:01:15
Wayne
Hello. Hi, Marisa. And this is one of those episodes that we actually have been told by you that you really enjoy where Marisa goes to the giant pile of questions and there are piling up about remote work and chooses some more or less a random and gives me just enough warning that I'm prepared but not enough to be rehearsed on and so, Marisa, we have a couple of questions today with the same theme.

00:01:02:05 - 00:01:16:18
Marisa
Yeah. So this week I thought we would kind of take some of these remote work myths and kind of bust them essentially because we know that they're not true. But goodness knows on seeing it everywhere. So I thought we would start with those today. Is that alright?

00:01:17:11 - 00:01:21:22
Wayne
It's fine. I actually have been accused of looking like one of the guys from Mythbusters.

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Marisa
So this is perfect.

00:01:24:06 - 00:01:25:14
Wayne
This is perfect. Yes.

00:01:26:21 - 00:01:49:10
Marisa
So one of the first myths that I see a lot is that brainstorming is impossible if you aren't in the office and, you know, I know for me personally, I actually got into a small LinkedIn disagreement with somebody about this a couple of weeks ago. And this idea that, like, we'll just because you're not in person doesn't mean you can't pick up the phone or start a zoom call.

00:01:49:14 - 00:01:51:10
Marisa
So do you have anything else about that?

00:01:51:16 - 00:02:19:10
Wayne
Yeah, I think that we have certain pre judgments about what brainstorming is and we have this image in our head of a bunch of people in a room gathered around a whiteboard or a flip chart, and everybody's kind of shouting out ideas and we're writing them down, right? And that's where all the good stuff happens.

00:02:19:10 - 00:02:19:18
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:02:19:18 - 00:02:23:06
Wayne
And it's based on some science.

00:02:23:23 - 00:02:31:23
Wayne
You know, there are things that we do in those situations, writing things down so that our brain continues to think about the.

00:02:32:01 - 00:02:32:09
Marisa
Course.

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Wayne
On them and the idea of the energy that somebody says something and you go, No, but what about this?

00:02:39:14 - 00:02:41:10
Marisa
There is killed off of each other.

00:02:41:11 - 00:02:53:17
Wayne
There is a lot to that. And traditionally that's what brainstorming is. We forget, though, that those kind of brainstorming sessions also have some built in problems.

00:02:54:05 - 00:02:55:09
Marisa
Okay, so what are.

00:02:55:09 - 00:02:59:20
Wayne
Your things such as power dynamics at play?

00:03:00:04 - 00:03:00:20
Marisa
Absolutely.

00:03:00:22 - 00:03:27:13
Wayne
Where Marisa has this great idea and she's willing to go to the mattresses and I think she's insane. What I'm not going to fight with her about is, first of all, I have to sit next to her every day, and I'm not going to fight with her. You know, so-and-so's been here a long time and they're their ideas carry more weight or they are just frankly, a bit of a jerk.

00:03:27:13 - 00:03:54:14
Wayne
And if you disagree with them, it's going to get personal. So you sit back. Mm hmm. We have a lot of power. We are finding in certain surveys that, for example, some women and minorities prefer to work virtually because there isn't that physical energy. There isn't that dynamic. There isn't some guy getting loud and belligerent to get in the way of discussion.

00:03:55:03 - 00:03:56:08
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:03:56:08 - 00:04:27:05
Wayne
You know, synchronous meetings are not always productive and true brainstorming sessions. So what makes brainstorming work? You have to have people understand what it is they're trying to solve. So there has to be kind of a common mindset about. They have to be able to really contribute ideas and capture them and have them where people can see them and build off of them.

00:04:27:14 - 00:04:42:14
Wayne
Right. You have to be willing to go back and reexamine. You have to make sure that everybody understood it. So somebody needs to be moderating and kind of leading it. And you have to know when it's over.

00:04:43:06 - 00:04:45:19
Marisa
Right. Yeah, exactly. Otherwise it'll go forever.

00:04:46:02 - 00:05:13:12
Wayne
Otherwise it goes forever. Well, can you do those things asynchronously? I happen to believe that the best answer is kind of a mix of this and asynchronous. Not all brainstorming sessions need to be a meeting. That's one reason I have too many meetings. But there are ways, for example, that you can have. I'll just give you an example.

00:05:13:20 - 00:05:39:02
Wayne
One kind of process. You have a quick meeting. You define the problem. You say, this is what we need to do. By Thursday, we need to have an answer. And it goes back and they they think and they cogitate and they noodle and they put their ideas in a common place where everybody else can see them similar to writing them on a whiteboard, whether that's a slack or a team's channel or whatever it is.

00:05:39:19 - 00:05:56:04
Wayne
And people assuming that they are motivated and want to solve the problem and want to be part of the brainstorm course entirely separate conversation. But if they are motivated, they can look at that and they could. Then maybe it's time for another synchronous meeting.

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Marisa
Right? Yeah. Now you have all the ideas. Let's go through.

00:05:59:16 - 00:06:31:12
Wayne
This. What the heck was that? Right. What are you talking about? Yeah. Or what did you mean by this? And so you clarify it, you talk about it, you kind of eliminate the things that aren't relevant. And then you go on, you do a second batch of thinking about it. Okay. One of the things about traditional brainstorming, which has always frustrated me, is I'm one of those people, the minute I leave the room and go, oh, man, you know what I just thought of?

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:33:14
Marisa
Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:33:14 - 00:06:59:15
Wayne
Synchronous brainstorming sessions don't allow for that. Right. This pressure of, hey, great, we reached consensus here. We're out of here. On to the next problem, and there's no time to go back and add more thought to it. So there are ways of doing synchronous and asynchronous brainstorming that don't involve everybody being in the room at the same time.

00:07:00:02 - 00:07:04:15
Wayne
What it does require, though, is a high degree of engagement and motivation.

00:07:05:00 - 00:07:05:13
Marisa
Of course.

00:07:06:08 - 00:07:34:16
Wayne
What that generally means is you have fewer people working on the brain stem, bringing in the whole team. You bring in the people who are most highly motivated, who have a high stake in that. There is an inherent danger of that is that you don't get the outsider opinion. Mm hmm. On the other hand, how often in a team meeting does somebody who isn't involved with this process really contribute?

00:07:35:01 - 00:07:36:13
Marisa
Right. Yeah, it's a little bit of both.

00:07:36:21 - 00:08:02:03
Wayne
In a perfect world, it would, you know, you want that outsider opinion. But generally, asynchronous brainstorming is a little bit smaller group tighter timeframes, not as tight as we're going to walk into the meeting. We're going to brainstorm. We're going to walk out with an answer, of course, but some tight time frames and people are expected to hold up their end of the bargain.

00:08:02:14 - 00:08:05:00
Marisa
Of course. Yeah. You want them to give their input.

00:08:06:17 - 00:08:18:08
Wayne
And you expect it and it's a performance expectation. There are no shortage of teams who can prove that on a regular basis, not the least of which is us.

00:08:19:00 - 00:08:19:09
Marisa
Right.

00:08:20:17 - 00:08:39:15
Wayne
I mean, on a very small scale, this podcast was originated, hosted, all put together wi find guests. We figure out what we're going to talk about. We run the thing, and you and I have not seen each other.

00:08:40:08 - 00:08:48:17
Marisa
Uh, did we see each other last year, right before the team meetings? Nope. So two years, three years.

00:08:48:17 - 00:08:59:02
Wayne
And two years since we've been in the same room. You know, not all brainstorming is equal. Not all problems are equal.

00:08:59:10 - 00:08:59:22
Marisa
Of course.

00:09:00:18 - 00:09:13:05
Wayne
So let's be reasonable about that. But it can, in fact, be done. There's a simple example. Same with Well then what's the next question on your list here?

00:09:13:13 - 00:09:31:20
Marisa
Yeah. So two going on with that and that absolutely coincides with what we were just talking about. Like there's this myth that you can't collaborate remotely either. I mean, you and I have been collaborating about this podcasts, you know, since last December when I brought it up to you. And we haven't seen each other in person in two years.

00:09:32:10 - 00:10:06:22
Wayne
All right. Can you collab? Yes, you can collaborate asynchronously. Mm hmm. We see plenty of examples of this in technology. We see plenty examples. You know, my favorite example always is the Hubble telescope, which went into space, and it wasn't like people could actually go to the telescope and fix it. It was fixed at a pretty good distance by people all over the world and they made the darn thing work.

00:10:07:03 - 00:10:07:13
Marisa
Yeah.

00:10:08:10 - 00:10:15:16
Wayne
There are plenty of examples of having it work. Here's the challenge and here's why people say it doesn't work.

00:10:16:01 - 00:10:16:09
Marisa
Okay.

00:10:17:12 - 00:10:44:05
Wayne
Very similar to the brainstorming thing. Number one is the social norms and the shorthand that happens when people know each other and they know each other's work style and they know that you don't bug Marissa in the morning and that Wayne is completely useless in the afternoon. And if you give Wayne too much detail, his head will explode.

00:10:44:15 - 00:10:49:04
Wayne
Right. You don't give Guy enough detail. He will take your life and you need to.

00:10:49:05 - 00:10:51:03
Marisa
He'll just ask you questions until you get the.

00:10:51:03 - 00:10:54:12
Wayne
Dynamics of how we all work together.

00:10:54:22 - 00:10:55:08
Marisa
Right.

00:10:55:08 - 00:11:12:21
Wayne
You learn that kind of by osmosis when you work with people every day. You develop that shorthand, that helps make work happen and bring ideas and create great results.

00:11:13:09 - 00:11:13:15
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:11:14:07 - 00:11:21:06
Wayne
Can that happen in a virtual environment? Yes. Does it happen as easily? The answer is no.

00:11:21:15 - 00:11:23:18
Marisa
Right.

00:11:24:13 - 00:11:50:04
Wayne
So it means that your team has to take the time to understand each other. Things like. And this isn't a panacea by any stretch of the imagination, but things like. Do you all know each other's desk profiles? Right. And your work is, you know, your work styles, whether that's disc or 16 types or whatever.

00:11:50:19 - 00:11:53:18
Marisa
Yes. We'll have a link in the show. Notes to desks, personality testing.

00:11:53:23 - 00:12:15:04
Wayne
You know what? And I will confess to being a little cynical about all of those, because the purpose of them is not that one is brilliant and the rest are all wrong. Of course, that it's a snapshot in time that gives you enough information that you can be informed how to best work with this person.

00:12:15:10 - 00:12:21:13
Marisa
Yeah, it's a tool, just like anything else. And it's also not a way to pigeonhole people. But that's a totally different conversation, right?

00:12:21:20 - 00:12:33:09
Wayne
Right. But if I know, oh, this person is a big detail person, I might pick that up in conversation. But if I know that going in, it's going to help me.

00:12:34:01 - 00:12:34:16
Marisa
Of course.

00:12:34:17 - 00:12:50:17
Wayne
Be more effective in working with that person. There are plenty of organizations that work virtually and managed to collaborate and create good work. Here's the thing about that. It's not natural.

00:12:51:14 - 00:12:51:23
Marisa
Okay.

00:12:52:08 - 00:12:55:19
Wayne
It is literally unnatural. We are social creatures.

00:12:56:02 - 00:12:56:11
Marisa
Right.

00:12:56:14 - 00:13:12:00
Wayne
Want, you know, most of us, most human beings get little dopamine blasts of being with and laughing and having fun and sharing a pizza and, you know, being silly and all of that stuff.

00:13:12:01 - 00:13:12:15
Marisa
Of course.

00:13:12:16 - 00:13:24:15
Wayne
Helps us collaborate and we are overcoming some of that with distance. Again, though, it requires a higher level of proactivity from the people involved.

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:49:05
Marisa
Right. I was going to say some of the tools. I mean, I know that we've been talking about asynchronous work a lot here recently, but like some of the other tools that I've seen too, like I know Zoom whiteboards, if I remember correctly. Now, they have an asynchronous option for those. Another tool that we've utilized a little bit here, other than Zoom is Slack has something called huddles.

00:13:49:05 - 00:14:13:06
Marisa
Now that if you if you're talking to somebody in a Slack chat and you're like, hey, actually, this would be way better as a voice chat, you hit a button. And it's I mean, it's faster than a phone call at this point, and they're going to add video later this fall. So, I mean, there are ways to simulate this simulate this whole concept of coming down the hallway and, hey, knock on your door.

00:14:13:13 - 00:14:15:14
Marisa
I need to talk to you about this.

00:14:16:02 - 00:14:24:00
Wayne
Here is the challenge with that. And it's okay, real challenge. And I know because I am one of those people who are challenged by this.

00:14:24:05 - 00:14:24:12
Marisa
Okay.

00:14:25:17 - 00:14:29:04
Wayne
Technology works. If you use it.

00:14:29:16 - 00:14:30:05
Marisa
Of course.

00:14:30:20 - 00:14:54:22
Wayne
If you know how to use it, if you understand why it adds value. And it's not just something else I need to learn. Right. And collaboration is a whole lot easier, as you say, with slack huddles, you're able to get a voice call and soon the video call with the push of a button that doesn't require, hey, let's get on a different tool.

00:14:54:22 - 00:14:56:16
Wayne
Let's log into something else.

00:14:57:02 - 00:14:58:01
Marisa
The scheduling.

00:14:58:02 - 00:15:11:20
Wayne
For it. The more it fits into the workflow and the fewer log ins and passwords and extra things and oh, good. I need to learn a whole new tool.

00:15:12:01 - 00:15:12:11
Marisa
Right.

00:15:13:03 - 00:15:45:07
Wayne
Right. The less of that that goes on, the more people are likely to adopt and use the tool quickly and efficiently. The problem with a lot of technology, and I talk to technology people all the time who say we've got a great solution to this time. And I go, okay, show me. And he shows me. And yeah, it does exactly what they say it's going to do, but it's a separate license, which means I have to get somebody to pay for it.

00:15:45:23 - 00:15:51:14
Wayne
It's more like this tool than that tool. And we use that tool here.

00:15:52:03 - 00:15:52:14
Marisa
Right.

00:15:52:15 - 00:16:04:09
Wayne
Right. Or it's based on this platform. But we don't use that here. It's Google based. But we're a microsoft House or vice versa.

00:16:04:11 - 00:16:04:22
Marisa
Right.

00:16:05:05 - 00:16:16:23
Wayne
And they don't always play well together. So the technology exists. But let's not pretend that just because the technology exists, there aren't barriers to that happening.

00:16:17:07 - 00:16:18:00
Marisa
Of course, and.

00:16:18:00 - 00:16:37:19
Wayne
They're very real. I am an old man with a lot going on. If what I am doing works, it takes a fair amount to get me to adopt a new tool or a new technology until I see proof of concept, until I see that it's not a big deal, or until I am forced kicking and screaming. Yes.

00:16:38:12 - 00:16:42:13
Marisa
Yeah. You really have to convince you why it's a better option. I totally understand that.

00:16:43:04 - 00:16:51:23
Wayne
You know, I have. I have survived. The Betamax is better than VHS wars.

00:16:51:23 - 00:16:53:04
Marisa
And we see how that went.

00:16:53:21 - 00:17:05:16
Wayne
Right. And we see how that went because not only but Betamax is a superior system. I don't care. I know how to use VHS. I can get VHS at the corner store. I'm going to use the.

00:17:06:03 - 00:17:08:20
Marisa
Right, right. And we've seen examples of that for a long time.

00:17:09:03 - 00:17:13:20
Wayne
It's gone forever anyway. And now it's CDs. And now it's something else.

00:17:14:03 - 00:17:14:11
Marisa
Right.

00:17:15:13 - 00:17:21:05
Wayne
So, yes. Can you collaborate? Yes. I know. There's a third one.

00:17:21:13 - 00:17:40:02
Marisa
Yeah. So there's a third one. It really kind of falls under this whole concept of also like that innovation is stifled when working remotely. There are some people out there that think there's no way you can be innovative because you're remote and you're not right there in front of everybody. And Bob, we both know that's not really true either.

00:17:40:16 - 00:18:15:03
Wayne
I actually have some sympathy for people who say this because innovation is a different animal. Okay. Brainstorming, collaboration, there is a defined problem and trying to address that defined problem. And we're all focused on that innovation is usually incremental. It's looking at something in a different way, looking at ways something can be improved or and it very seldom comes from the people on the inside.

00:18:16:01 - 00:18:16:11
Marisa
Okay.

00:18:17:05 - 00:18:28:19
Wayne
And one of the dynamics that happens is that the nuclear team, when we work remotely, can become very, very strong and very, very tight.

00:18:29:06 - 00:18:30:07
Marisa
Of course.

00:18:30:07 - 00:18:56:17
Wayne
What doesn't happen, though, is the conversations with people in other departments and the people in the organization who might be in the building. But you don't have the hallway conversation with the person from marketing or the person from engineering who, you know, has this kind of crazy idea. And that conversation generally doesn't happen the same way when we're remote.

00:18:57:15 - 00:18:57:23
Marisa
Okay.

00:18:58:12 - 00:19:27:06
Wayne
I think that and I don't know quite how to do this. There are organizations that are doing this just fine. But I think that for most people, innovation action comes from the edges and from comes from the outside. And I think that in a remote and a hybrid world, we have to find ways to have those conversations outside of our nuclear team.

00:19:27:11 - 00:19:42:00
Wayne
We need to find ways to cross-pollinate ideas within departments. We need to be free to have conversations that aren't transactional. To just have those. She Wouldn't it be cool conversations?

00:19:42:16 - 00:20:04:03
Marisa
Because I know that something I've seen a lot of people talk about and I mean, granted, it's slightly different. It's before the conversation is this idea that well because we're working remotely now, we're not getting quiet is interrupted as much or we have the ability to, you know, shut off your notifications for a bit and do this deep work thinking that you may not have been able to do when you were in the office, because now nobody's bothering you.

00:20:04:03 - 00:20:25:15
Marisa
And now there's not Susie Crunch in or chips to cubicles down or whatever. And so there is this ability to to think about these larger things and to think about this big picture stuff and to maybe come up with some of those innovative ideas. But you're absolutely right. Like, okay, I have this idea, but if I never talk to Joe in engineering about that, well, then who cares?

00:20:25:20 - 00:20:50:17
Wayne
That's the thing is, yes, we have the chance to daydream and we do have the chance. But do you have a the motivation? What's in it for you to raise the topic? Of course. Bring it up. Right. And the second thing is, is there a mechanism is there a way to share this and have these conversations? Is it encouraged in the organization to have Blue Sky conversations?

00:20:51:03 - 00:20:51:11
Marisa
Mm hmm.

00:20:52:04 - 00:21:27:07
Wayne
And those generally don't happen in a remote environment because we are very transactional and we are focused on tasks and what's happening at the moment. So for innovation to occur, we need to be far more proactive about sharing those ideas and seeking out the opinions of others. And then we need a mechanism to actually talk about the fine and skunkworks, the problem or the innovation.

00:21:27:16 - 00:21:28:21
Marisa
Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:29:01 - 00:21:36:01
Wayne
And so can innovation be done? There are plenty of examples.

00:21:36:06 - 00:21:40:01
Marisa
Yeah, there are big companies that have been completely remote for a long time doing the same thing.

00:21:40:02 - 00:21:46:08
Wayne
Birds. Angry Birds was not created by people who up to the same office every day.

00:21:46:20 - 00:21:50:17
Marisa
Right. Yeah. And was. And look how large that is. Yeah.

00:21:52:02 - 00:22:11:14
Wayne
And the innovative I mean, nobody had an idea like that as a way to run a game in that way. So can you innovate? Yes. Is it easy? No. And I think innovation is perhaps tougher than brainstorming and collaboration, which are much more task and outcome defined.

00:22:12:02 - 00:22:16:17
Marisa
That totally makes sense. It's more big picture thinking. It's harder to do. Absolutely.

00:22:16:19 - 00:22:17:03
Wayne
There.

00:22:17:19 - 00:22:24:16
Marisa
So can we consider all three of these myths busted with a little bit of here and there?

00:22:25:00 - 00:22:31:13
Wayne
Two of them, I think. Two of them, I think, are busted. One is slightly damaged.

00:22:31:20 - 00:22:51:08
Marisa
Societally damage. I'll take it. I will take it. If you guys have any other myths that you would like us to talk about, whether we confirm that they are true or bust them, by all means, let us know. And I want to thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life and for shownotes transcripts and other resources.

00:22:51:08 - 00:23:07:16
Marisa
Make sure that you're visiting longdistanceworklife.com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and reveal that helps our show reach more teammates and leaders just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our shownotes.

00:23:07:21 - 00:23:40:17
Marisa
And let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest one of these myths for us to bust in a future episode. And lastly, if you'd like to gain greater confidence free with your virtual team, sign up for our Demystifying Remote Leadership video series at long distance work life dot com slash video. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.