00;00;08;02 - 00;00;39;29
Wayne Turmel
Greetings, everybody. Welcome to the Long-Distance Work Life Podcast. My name is Wayne Trammell. I am your host today. We are without Marissa, but that means we have another cool guest joining us and we will try to stir the pot a little bit with Henry O'Loughlin in just a moment. This is the podcast. For those of us trying to thrive, survive, generally make sense and keep the weasels at bay in the world of remote and hybrid work.

00;00;40;02 - 00;00;48;20
Wayne Turmel
Welcome. Welcome. I am going to bring in our guests now Henry O'Loughlin is with Build Remote. Hey, Henry, How are you?

00;00;48;22 - 00;00;50;24
Henry O'Loughlin
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Wayne.

00;00;50;26 - 00;01;09;20
Wayne Turmel
Well, thank you, man. We are going to have, I suspect, a very fun discussion about whether or not we have, in fact, reached peak hybrid. And I'm going to leave that there as a teaser for the audience. While you tell us a little bit about you and build a remote. Yeah.

00;01;09;20 - 00;01;28;12
Henry O'Loughlin
So I ran a fully remote marketing agency for six years. I worked there for eight years. So this is going back way before the pandemic. And we in my mind, we tried something and then always it was a mistake. And then we'd try something new and it was like that second or third try was the right way to do it.

00;01;28;13 - 00;01;52;22
Henry O'Loughlin
So we learned a lot about how to run a remote company for years before 2020. 2020 came around and I saw a lot of bad advice about how to operate remotely, how to work from home. So I started building remote just as a way to talk about that. And now that's my full time work and company. And what I do is I help small businesses operate remotely.

00;01;52;24 - 00;02;18;06
Wayne Turmel
I want to talk before we get into the subject that we supposedly are talking about. I want to talk a little bit about the early days, because you said something very unashamedly that most people don't want to cop to, which is this notion of we're going to change the way we do business and we're absolutely going to get it right the first time and everything everybody tells us is going to work.

00;02;18;08 - 00;02;25;10
Wayne Turmel
And you said that didn't happen. Give us tell us where you bumped your nose so we don't feel so bad.

00;02;25;12 - 00;02;50;17
Henry O'Loughlin
Yeah, I think the you're not physically together. So if you come from an office and everyone is used to working that way, then you go to remote. You sort of want to. The instinct is to build back the way of working in an office, but over the internet. So your instinct is to meet more, to be more available online, on Slack or email, to show that you're there at your desk working.

00;02;50;19 - 00;03;11;08
Henry O'Loughlin
So you want to respond to emails quickly. You want to respond to Slack quickly, you want to have more one on ones. You want to have more stand up meetings. And we did all of that stuff as well. And all of that actually is sort of the opposite of what you want to do remotely in my mind. You don't want to fill a day with Zoom meetings.

00;03;11;08 - 00;03;20;14
Henry O'Loughlin
That's miserable. I'm a huge advocate for remote work. Sitting on Zoom for six out of eight or 9 hours a day is not fulfilling.

00;03;20;16 - 00;03;41;27
Wayne Turmel
Okay, so let me stop you There, because this is a really it's a vital point. And I agree with you in most ways, because the problems come when we're trying to replicate the office environment and we're not. Right. But what did you learn, given that you had to onboard people and hire people and do all the stuff the companies have to do right.

00;03;42;00 - 00;03;51;08
Wayne Turmel
What were one or two key things that you went, this isn't what we thought it was going to be, either for good or evil.

00;03;51;08 - 00;04;14;06
Henry O'Loughlin
One big one would be Slack. So we implemented that without any rules or guidelines in the way. The way I talk about Slack is that it will set your culture for you if you don't put guidelines on it and you may not like the culture. And that's what we went through. So. So for the example of Slack, it can turn into like a digital punch clock, which is not what we were looking for at all.

00;04;14;06 - 00;04;39;16
Henry O'Loughlin
We don't care at the time we're running this business. When people are online, we just care about them doing their jobs well and providing value to the company through their jobs. If that means they're not online from 1 to 2 p.m., that's fine. But Slack. Basically you have the green, yellow, red buttons. People want to be green just innately to show that they're there.

00;04;39;18 - 00;05;05;24
Henry O'Loughlin
They want to respond and quickly to show that they're there, which in my mind that switches the priority from important work or deep work to shallow, urgent work. And so if someone's just receiving Slack messages and responding, they're perceived as super helpful and a great teammate, whereas really they're just interrupting their their more important work throughout the day.

00;05;05;27 - 00;05;26;05
Henry O'Loughlin
So we had to like reverse our communication expectations on Slack rather than saying we started out like, That's great. Everyone comes on and says hello. Then we had to switch it to, You can do that if you'd like, but you don't have to. And then if somebody is online and responding quickly, it would be we actually encourage you to get off of Slack.

00;05;26;07 - 00;05;35;02
Henry O'Loughlin
It's a distraction. So we had to basically still use Slack, but switched the communication expectations completely. That's the one that stands out the most in my mind.

00;05;35;06 - 00;05;57;22
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And, you know, for the record and, you know, in case anybody's a shareholder, we're not saying that Slack is inherently evil and don't use it. It's like everything else. It's it's Are you conscious and intentional about how you're using it and how you use it to form the culture, not the other way around. I love the way you said that.

00;05;57;25 - 00;06;21;28
Wayne Turmel
So let's get to the topic that we're discussing today, which the title is intentionally. I don't want to use the word, but the word disturbing is in the sentence. You know, you are stirring things up a bit when you say we have reached peak hybrid. There is a lot of discussion about this. Why are we at peak hybrid and why?

00;06;21;28 - 00;06;27;06
Wayne Turmel
Or is this kind of as much as it's going to get and be? Yeah.

00;06;27;09 - 00;06;47;09
Henry O'Loughlin
First, I probably want to start defining hybrid because that could mean a ton of different things. So when I say that, I mean in the current form or current definition of hybrid work, which in my mind is people are near the most people are near an office, they go in two or three days a week and they work from home two or three days a week.

00;06;47;11 - 00;06;55;20
Henry O'Loughlin
That's sort of how I would define hybrid work right now. That's what I'm saying has peaked out. That will only decline from here.

00;06;55;22 - 00;07;20;28
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, And and that makes sense because what you're talking about is not a conscious way of working. It's we've reached some sort of agreement where we'll bring people into the office as much as we can without them quitting and yeah, and give people the illusion of control over their time while still insisting they come into the office. And that is what a lot of people are calling hybrid.

00;07;21;04 - 00;07;23;14
Wayne Turmel
But it's not really hybrid work.

00;07;23;17 - 00;07;28;07
Henry O'Loughlin
Yeah, well, how would you define hybrid work when how?

00;07;28;15 - 00;07;55;20
Wayne Turmel
man, this isn't supposed to be my interview. I think hybrid work does have components of you meet and get together on occasion. And what's different is right now we're kind of who works where is kind of where hybrid sits. And I think true hybrid also includes the factor of time, which is who does what, where, but also when it happens.

00;07;55;22 - 00;08;04;17
Wayne Turmel
And that creates the flexibility and a different mindset to me. Yeah, you're the one who started this with the title, You tell me.

00;08;04;20 - 00;08;24;06
Henry O'Loughlin
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I would just say it's currently three days in the office, two days at home. Everyone essentially is supposed to live near an office and you work partly remotely, partly in the office that that's the one that is peaking. And I can kind of take you through my thoughts on why. But yeah, please.

00;08;24;08 - 00;08;25;14
Wayne Turmel
If there are three.

00;08;25;14 - 00;08;48;20
Henry O'Loughlin
Basic work models, remote hybrid or office based hybrid to me has the the most issues of all of them. One is that it's it's essentially remote but with an office so it's it's not quite its own model it because everything has to have a digital component since some people might be there on a monday and some might not.

00;08;48;20 - 00;09;18;24
Henry O'Loughlin
So you're essentially remote anyhow. You're just calling it something different. That's that's the first. The second problem is it's the hardest on communication, internal communication to me, because if everyone's remote, you know how to communicate. It's zoom for meetings, it's slack for quick messages, it's Gmail for for longer messages. If you have if you're hybrid, you don't know if the meeting should be in person, should be on Slack or should be a combination, which is the hardest.

00;09;18;24 - 00;09;38;27
Henry O'Loughlin
You don't know if decisions should be made over a project management board on the Internet or they should be made in a boardroom, then recorded somehow and moved to the Internet. Three You're inherently running two systems at once, which is hard. So you're you're having to operate both ways and you better be good at both or neither works.

00;09;38;29 - 00;10;03;11
Henry O'Loughlin
The biggest one of all to me is it it reduces your talent pool greatly versus remote work. That's probably the biggest thing about going fully remote is your talent pool switches from We can hire within a 50 mile radius of our city that's office to we can hire anywhere in the country or the world. That's that's the huge promise of remote work.

00;10;03;17 - 00;10;34;20
Henry O'Loughlin
When you say you're hybrid, you still want to hire near an office, but you don't want to use the office as much, so you're greatly reducing your talent pool essentially. Then finally, I think I'd say is that another way to define hybrid work in its current state is unused office space. So if people come in three days a week, that means you're 40% unused office space, two days a week, 60% unused office space, and that just companies don't sit on expenses.

00;10;34;20 - 00;10;47;24
Henry O'Loughlin
They don't need long term to compete. You have to essentially drive out the waste of your operations, and that will inherently push people to reduce office space, pushing them closer to remote.

00;10;47;26 - 00;11;16;18
Wayne Turmel
That's so I mean, your points are all really well taken. I don't disagree at the core with any of them. So why do you think we've settled on hybrid right now? Is it purely a matter of we don't know what the alternatives look like? Is it purely this is a gateway drug to more remote work? Yeah. What what's going on?

00;11;16;21 - 00;11;31;09
Wayne Turmel
That we are in this hybrid state? Because I think there is particularly on the part of business owners and and bosses, just a big sense of we have no freaking idea what's going on.

00;11;31;11 - 00;11;54;17
Henry O'Loughlin
That's what it seems like to me too. Yeah. So I think the reason is it's been like one great concession. If you were to paint with broad brushes, most of the people want to work remotely. Most of the time, and most of the managers that have some sort of sunk cost into office space want people to come in and we sort of end up in the middle.

00;11;54;20 - 00;12;00;06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, most of what we call hybrid work is in fact just kind of an uneasy compromise.

00;12;00;06 - 00;12;02;02
Henry O'Loughlin
That compromise. There you go.

00;12;02;05 - 00;12;31;22
Wayne Turmel
That is true. Yeah. Is it true that everybody wants to work remotely? I mean, right now I think the number is about 25% Do it. I know plenty of people who never mind whether the bosses forget the bosses for a moment. There's the individual workers. Not everybody wants to work from home. I think that's an assumption that the remote work kind of advocates zealots like to throw out there.

00;12;31;25 - 00;12;33;18
Wayne Turmel
How true is that?

00;12;33;21 - 00;12;53;09
Henry O'Loughlin
No, it's not true. So I was just painting with a broad brush, trying to say the surveys that say like 65% or 80% would like to work from home. Part of the time or, you know, those like big numbers, which most of the people most of the time. No, not everyone wants to work right now. Everyone wants to work from home all the time.

00;12;53;09 - 00;13;17;07
Henry O'Loughlin
That's absolutely true. And there's a lot about it. But it could depend on your phase of life. Right. So I've said it before where I moved to a new city when I was 23, and I was glad I worked in an office with 600 people. I made friends, I met my wife. It was great, right? I wouldn't want to work from home 23 with three roommates sitting in my bedroom the whole day.

00;13;17;07 - 00;13;41;02
Henry O'Loughlin
That's that doesn't sound fun. So there's absolutely scenarios where remote workers or working from home or specifically isn't right for people, but generally with like the compromise of two or three days a week in the office, you can kind of see that most of the people would like either the flexibility or the option to just not be coming in the office all five days anymore.

00;13;41;03 - 00;13;43;14
Henry O'Loughlin
That seems to summarize it pretty well.

00;13;43;17 - 00;14;12;19
Wayne Turmel
I think the word that and and this is why I added the concept of time, but that's Wayne's definition of it. I think it's the flexibility. Yeah, that makes hybrid kind of the middle option. Yeah, I've talked to me if I'm the business owner now, I mean, you're the business owner. I probably have very real concerns about hiring people who aren't in the office all the time.

00;14;12;25 - 00;14;32;01
Wayne Turmel
Some of them are, you know, plantation mentality. You got to keep an eye on them or they'll slack off. Some of it is legitimately. That's how I grew up. That's how I learned business was done. I can't imagine it being any other way. How do you have conversations with business owners about this?

00;14;32;03 - 00;14;49;24
Henry O'Loughlin
Yeah, well, I would I would want to add one thing that I think is a key point that I don't I don't think a lot of people talk about. So you have two, two ways of operating in the office work and remote work. And let's say your company and you do operate a business. Your company was fully in the office.

00;14;49;26 - 00;14;50;10
Wayne Turmel
You've.

00;14;50;12 - 00;15;18;26
Henry O'Loughlin
Built all of your processes, systems, communication around physically being together, and you're good at that system. 2020 comes around and you are forced to switch to remote work. You haven't selected it proactively, right? And you're bad at that system. So you're you're good in the office and you're bad at remote. So essentially there's a big conflation going on that the office is good and remote is bad.

00;15;18;26 - 00;15;40;26
Henry O'Loughlin
But really it's I'm good at the office and I'm bad at remote. And that's a huge distinction that we're not talking about right now, is that you're bad at the new system and you're good at the old system. So your inherent bias would be to go back to what you're good at. So I understand that completely. And it doesn't mean remote work can't be done for a company.

00;15;40;26 - 00;15;46;10
Henry O'Loughlin
It just means that your skills have been and processes have been developed for the office.

00;15;46;12 - 00;16;01;20
Wayne Turmel
So what do we need to learn or unlearn if that's not going to be the sticking point? Right. If we're going to make conscious decisions about where we work and when we work, how we work, what do we need to learn or unlearn that makes us currently bad at remote?

00;16;01;23 - 00;16;05;05
Henry O'Loughlin
Yeah, it's a it's a great question. I think the.

00;16;05;07 - 00;16;06;06
Wayne Turmel
Big, big.

00;16;06;06 - 00;16;43;28
Henry O'Loughlin
Difference is that is that part you said if I'm the biggest judge of people's performance is just like seeing they're seeing them, they're at their desk for a certain amount of time and having quick conversations that seem to move something forward. All that has to go away with the remote. Unfortunately, it the way you operate your company remotely, if it's if it's going well in my mind, is that you understand what each role is supposed to bring in value and what sort of output it's supposed to do, and you sort of get out of the way and the people need to do the work and do the work well.

00;16;43;28 - 00;17;04;04
Henry O'Loughlin
Companies that are switching from the office to remote need to think about understanding what value each role needs to bring a lot more than just watching people do the work that that's the big shift. And it's it's really hard. It took us years to make that shift.

00;17;04;08 - 00;17;29;02
Wayne Turmel
Okay. So we're nearing the end of our time and the premise here is that right now hybrid work is kind of the catch all, and it's where everybody's settled while we figure out what we want to be when we grow up. You what do you think ultimately the balance is going to be between fully remote work and fully co-located?

00;17;29;06 - 00;17;52;02
Henry O'Loughlin
I think for all desk jobs, knowledge workers, whatever you want. Anyone who can work this way, I think most of them will be most remote, all or most of the time. At some point, I think. I think the niche will become 50 to 200 people all in one city working on the same project from one office. I think.

00;17;52;02 - 00;18;20;02
Henry O'Loughlin
I think it basically flips from where it was in 2019. Let's say. And I think in that transition you're going to see this massive commercial real estate crash because the value of real of office space is so much less than we thought it was. I think what happens is that price plummets, leases run off, companies reduce space or get rid of space altogether.

00;18;20;04 - 00;18;43;10
Henry O'Loughlin
The cost to lease these split offices goes way down and companies start to scoop it up again as a place for people to work outside of the home. But it's not their operating model anymore. It's essentially like a co-working space for your people in certain cities. That's that's where I think all of this is is going.

00;18;43;12 - 00;19;17;14
Wayne Turmel
There is a three bear conversation I would love to have, though. I'm sure active on cities, on right, countries on all kinds of things. I don't think we've figured this out yet. But your premise that what we're calling hybrid, which may or may not really be hybrid, but what we're calling hybrid is really a placeholder until we figure all this out and I don't really think you're wrong on that, which makes lousy podcasting, but lovely conversation.

00;19;17;16 - 00;19;40;13
Wayne Turmel
So thank you so much. Henry LOFLAND We build remote. Thank you for being with us. For those of you who are listening, you know how podcasts work. If you enjoyed this conversation and I can't believe you didn't, please like and subscribe. Tell your friends word of mouth matters unless you didn't like it. In which case it's just a little secret.

00;19;40;15 - 00;20;12;29
Wayne Turmel
You can find links to Henry's company. You can find links to Henry, all kinds of good stuff on our website. Long distance work life dot com. You can find transcripts and recordings of past episodes. And if you are confused about how do we lead in this new world of remote and hybrid and whatever the heck you want to call it, I urge you to take a look at our Long Distance Leadership series.

00;20;13;02 - 00;20;41;12
Wayne Turmel
It's available for organizations, but it's also available as open enrollment. Anybody from anywhere can join these live virtual instructor led training sessions. The link is below my face. It's also on the website and we urge you to join us. Thank you so much, Henry. Thanks for being with us. Man. I really enjoyed this conversation and I trust our listeners did too.

00;20;41;15 - 00;20;43;09
Wayne Turmel
Got to do it again sometime.

00;20;43;11 - 00;20;45;17
Henry O'Loughlin
Sounds good. Thanks a lot, Wayne.

00;20;45;20 - 00;21;00;02
Wayne Turmel
And remember, every week we have new episodes. Marissa will be back next week. I think we are doing pet peeves, which is always amusing. Have a great week. Don't let the weasels get you down.

00:00:08:18 - 00:00:43:03
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Long-Distance Worklife podcast where we try to make sense of working from home, working in the office hybrid work wherever your brain and your butt are and getting stuff done. It is an ever evolving workplace, and that's what we are here for. This is not a Marisa episode, although we have been having an inordinate amount of fun with her lately, answering your questions and addressing your pet peeves.

00:00:43:09 - 00:00:58:17
Wayne Turmel
So she will be back next week. Do not fret, though. I am joined by a very, very clever person, the executive brain coach, Angela Shurina, who is joining us right now. Hi, Angela.

00:00:59:10 - 00:01:03:20
Angela Shurina
Hi, Wayne. So pleased to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

00:01:04:05 - 00:01:18:10
Wayne Turmel
Well, thank you for being here. Although you are not here, you are actually. And I love this about at the workplace right now. Last time I talked to you, I can't remember where you were, but it wasn't Brazil, which is where you are now.

00:01:19:00 - 00:01:21:17
Angela Shurina
Yes, it was Mexico, Playa del Carmen.

00:01:23:07 - 00:01:39:09
Wayne Turmel
Darn, your life is not bad. And this is part of the thing, right? Is you do good work and you write and you teach and you do all this stuff and yet you can do it from pretty much anywhere, which is a very cool thing.

00:01:40:00 - 00:02:04:10
Angela Shurina
Yeah, I think it's the reality for a lot more people. When people look into that, great, so we all know that most of us don't need to be in the office for all the hours that we work. And so why not take our self to some other place that we might explore, enjoy more instead of staying in one place in doing the work from there?

00:02:05:15 - 00:02:35:03
Wayne Turmel
Well, that's absolutely true, and there are lots of reasons people don't do that. You know, some people are grown ups with responsibilities and children and stuff, Right. And they're not free to do that. And here's the other thing. And this is what I want to talk about today is regardless of what chair you happen to be in at the moment, you still have to get work done.

00:02:36:04 - 00:03:03:12
Wayne Turmel
And our brains aren't always our best friends when it comes to this. And I know that you have done a ton of studying and writing on how the brain works and and or does it as the case may be. And we have a bunch of things I want to talk about burnout. I want to talk about fatigue. If we have time to it, we'll get to procrastination.

00:03:03:15 - 00:03:33:20
Wayne Turmel
And yes, I fully realize the irony of what I just said. I understand that. But let's just start with why do some people struggle with mastering themselves and creating a mindset that allows them to work remotely or free of the constraints most people have and other people just can't do it?

00:03:35:13 - 00:04:14:08
Angela Shurina
You know, I actually would just throw it in other place. But since you asked this question, I think a lot of people have assumptions that they don't check against reality. That's, I believe, the foundation of it. Right. So we think that it is not. It is impossible to, let's say, move with our family to another country, even if, you know, for a short while, because I don't know, because of kids school or because, you know, we are used to certain things or getting groceries or having our routines taken care of.

00:04:15:03 - 00:04:48:11
Angela Shurina
But then when you do research, actually the environment changed so much and you can do all of those things in most places in the world. And the world is much more open to that and ready for that. Right. And so I think it's assumptions and not feeling like maybe people have resources to put a little bit extra work into that research and decision making and changing things.

00:04:48:17 - 00:05:19:16
Angela Shurina
And then another aspect of it, of course, when we are in a familiar environment, we spend much less energy on making different decisions, on learning or on doing our thing, everyday things and people. And our brain is always trying to save energy, right? So when people think about how can it move to or should I move to another country, the brain immediately for most people will say no, too much work will already overwhelmed tired fatigue.

00:05:19:21 - 00:05:34:01
Angela Shurina
So no to the idea, right? See where you are, where we are because that's familiar. That's no additional energy expenditure. And that's why people tend to stay in the same place. Well, even.

00:05:34:01 - 00:06:10:12
Wayne Turmel
If they are in the same place. You said something that really resonated with me, which is I work from home. I have for a very long time, but things have kind of shifted in my domestic relationship with my bride, and I find them because I am home all day. I am doing a lot more stuff today. I'm waiting for the dryer repairman and I'm doing all of this kind of stuff that I used to being a good old cis at white male used to give to my wife to do.

00:06:11:15 - 00:06:28:02
Wayne Turmel
And I find now that because I'm home, I'm doing a lot of that stuff and I'm not as focused on work. I'm kind of more stressed than I was. Is that normal or is that just me?

00:06:28:23 - 00:06:58:08
Angela Shurina
No, it is absolutely normal. And that's an issue for a lot of people working from home. People don't put enough energy and time into organizing their work and home environment, separating them and building boundaries around them. By boundaries, I mean, for example, hours when people work, when people take breaks and take care of their other responsibilities at home, where people do their work.

00:06:58:08 - 00:07:31:05
Angela Shurina
Right. Where is the workplace? Where is the place for food or for doing other things? The entertainment, learning, taking care of our responsibilities. So for our brains, banality is very important. One example that might be you know, a lot more people might understand is, for example, if you decide to work at home in bed where you usually sleep, the brain is that a very, I don't know, magical adaptation machine.

00:07:31:11 - 00:08:15:11
Angela Shurina
Whenever we switch our environment from bad to we are from, you know, whatever we work to the bed, our brain immediately puts us in this state ready for sleep, because that's what we usually do when, when we in bed. So certain neurotransmitters are released, certain are not released. And we get into the sleepy state. Right now, if it's not sleeping time and somebody is trying to work there, they will not feel that productive and focused and effective at doing the work because the brain reads the environment and prepares for what you usually do there and creates the state optimal for that task.

00:08:16:09 - 00:08:50:00
Angela Shurina
And that's why, you know, even if the our working space is limited, not everybody can have separate office and separate room for for doing other things, having seasonality in a sense that, you know, maybe moving your table, maybe having different of corners of the same room for doing different work and taking care of other responsibility that will really help people to improve their productivity and effectiveness of doing other things.

00:08:50:07 - 00:08:56:09
Angela Shurina
So like environment, that's I think people are just not taught that fact.

00:08:57:00 - 00:09:15:21
Wayne Turmel
And I think there's a lot of things people aren't taught, not the least of which is how easily we trick our brains for good or evil. I keep moving. Your table close to the window shouldn't be as big a deal as in fact, it is.

00:09:16:09 - 00:09:41:18
Angela Shurina
Mm hmm. Yes. Because, you know, like, for example, it increases the production of dopamine, and it is one of the major molecules that allows us to stay focused and accomplish things and have energy and drive to to accomplish tasks. And so if somebody works, for example, in a corner that is darker, they are going to be having a harder time just focusing on things and getting things done right.

00:09:42:05 - 00:09:53:11
Angela Shurina
I like to call this, you know, Brain's user manual, like nobody taught us those things, like how to actually use our brain. Of course, one of the reasons was there was not enough science compared to now.

00:09:56:16 - 00:10:27:07
Wayne Turmel
What you said is disturbing. I impulse and I'll tell you why. It's because because our brains are so easily tricked and because we're not always conscious of what is going on, we get in our own way. And so let's take a look at some of the most common things that people experience, and you can help guide us through some of this.

00:10:27:20 - 00:10:34:03
Wayne Turmel
The first thing I think that a lot of people are feeling is just a sense of overwhelm.

00:10:34:19 - 00:10:36:02
Angela Shurina
Mm hmm.

00:10:36:04 - 00:10:52:17
Wayne Turmel
Things are just it's just too much. And I'm trying to keep up at work and I'm trying to be a good soldier and I want to be a good teammate and I want to be a good employee. And I want my boss in while I'm working so I don't get fired. And, oh, by the way, the dog needs to be walked and their stuff.

00:10:52:18 - 00:10:59:03
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Why does our brain beat us up like that?

00:11:00:20 - 00:11:19:03
Angela Shurina
Yes, The brain is always actually not trying to beat us up, but trying to do its best job to help us accomplish things in life and, you know, get what we want. But it has, again, its user manual. It's kind of like every car hybrid, electric or gas has a set of rules how to use it. The same for the brain.

00:11:19:13 - 00:11:57:15
Angela Shurina
And our brain has also limitations. It's not limitless in its capacities. So one of those limitations, for example, is our working memory or that part of our brain that keeps the stuff that we are working on or thinking off in one place to analyze, to process and to help us achieve it. Now, again, it is limited. And so the more stuff we put there without management, without, I don't know, putting certain on schedule or things in certain folders or a project, if we just keep them at the back of our mind, so to speak, in that working memory.

00:11:57:23 - 00:12:46:08
Angela Shurina
That's where the feeling of overwhelm comes from because all of those things there in that center, in that working memory at the same time. And the reason is because people are not taught that to separate their life and their work into different projects. And how can we do that? Very simple. Let's see if you have different projects at work you can create on your computer different folders, and you put the information in related to that in those folders and then you studio things and you write it down again, put into folders, schedule them, and then that unloads your working memory because now it's kind of like in the cloud.

00:12:46:13 - 00:13:08:23
Angela Shurina
Right. If somebody has personal life project the same thing, creative folder, schedule it. If you need to spend time with family, with dogs, you know, with spouses, then put it on your calendar. And now you are not just trying to keep it in your working memory, trying not to forget. Now it's out there, manage by our technology that can actually help us to feel less overwhelmed.

00:13:10:03 - 00:13:36:00
Angela Shurina
And one of the most popular strategy from productivity coaches is that you have to manage your life and work as projects and you have to unload what you keep in your brain into some device, into some storage, can can be folders, can be your schedule. So you don't think about it all the time, like what you have to get done, right?

00:13:36:02 - 00:13:48:12
Angela Shurina
You put in place reminders. I personally put reminders for anything from my work to doing my laundry, etc. So it's all in the schedule and I can be free thinking about whatever I need to think. At the moment.

00:13:50:00 - 00:14:11:22
Wayne Turmel
I am both old and analog, and so I do everything by notebooks. Is there an advantage to doing it electronically? Does the old analog, you know, write your list out, keep it in a paper calendar? Are there differences?

00:14:12:13 - 00:14:36:14
Angela Shurina
Yeah. The difference is about the effectiveness of the system. Now you can write them down, but then you have a system to organize that. Do you have separate folders for different areas of your life and work? So we need to when you need to find something, it's actually easy to find. The advantage of digital system is that number one, it is.

00:14:37:10 - 00:14:58:13
Angela Shurina
It can be structured in so many ways, right? You can have folders of all kinds and you can put links there and audio files and video files. Number two, it can be accessed in theory from everywhere. Like if you have your Google Drive, for example, you can access it from your phone, you can access it from your computer.

00:15:00:02 - 00:15:21:08
Angela Shurina
Another thing, you can connect it to your calendar that will send you reminders. You can share it with other people, and then when you want to physically move, you don't have to move your notebooks and think about that or getting a new notebook in just one place all the time. And I think the last but not least, it's searchable.

00:15:21:16 - 00:15:42:21
Angela Shurina
When you put it into digital storage. Now you can put in keywords and search for a very specific thing instead of trying to browse through, you know, for example, and again, can be done probably with notebooks too. But it requires that organization so you can actually find the stuff that you put in there easily.

00:15:44:02 - 00:16:11:07
Wayne Turmel
Wow. That is a lot of stuff and I am properly shamed. But let's in the few minutes that we have left in time is fleeing. Good heavens. I do want to make sure because this is my personal demon. And so I am using this as therapy time. And I make no apologies to our listeners about this. My big demon is procrastination.

00:16:11:07 - 00:16:30:16
Wayne Turmel
I am a world class procrastinator. Here I am at 43,000 words of the new novel, and it ain't going anywhere. Tips for Overcoming Procrastination. Maybe. Why does our brain do that to us and what can we do about it?

00:16:32:00 - 00:16:59:16
Angela Shurina
So there are a few things, you know, from biology to psychology. I probably want to start with psychology because biology might take a while to unpack. So psychology, you know, your brain actually, Wayne, is not procrastinating, not, you know, the way you think your brain does everything to keep you alive, to keep you fed, to keep you having a roof over your head.

00:17:00:02 - 00:17:30:07
Angela Shurina
So your brain does the important things. Now, why brain? Our brains primary purpose is survival. And so if we procrastinate on some project, that's because a couple of reasons I'll bring think it is not important to our immediate survival and thriving. Right. And that's why we tend to do things the urgent, especially if we are committed to someone and procrastinate on things that are kind of good to you.

00:17:30:07 - 00:18:09:06
Angela Shurina
But you know, we might skip it. And that's internal knowledge of what's important and urgent and what is not. That is because of procrastination on some projects, but not on others, like, you know, essential work that pays the bills. You, the people usually don't procrastinate on that. And number two, the brain often thinks that the project that you're procrastinating on is too expensive, meaning you have to put a lot a lot of energy in that the cost and the outcome, the reward is unknown somewhere far in the future.

00:18:09:06 - 00:18:38:06
Angela Shurina
So your brain is much more concerned with the immediate survival. And that's kind of the answer to this question. And the exercise here is to figure out, to talk to you, to your brain and create this urgency almost artificially by, for example, writing down all the potential benefits of finishing this project if you're working on your book, right.

00:18:38:12 - 00:19:02:18
Angela Shurina
So you might start journaling a little bit about what this book can bring into your life, how can improve, how it can improve your business, what kind of connections in opportunities it can bring into your life, how much more income it can bring, and then maybe put more examples to make it really true to your brain, to make your brain understand that this is actually important for your future.

00:19:03:07 - 00:19:21:18
Angela Shurina
This is where I would always start if I find people who I work with procrastinating, I'm trying to make them understand why it's important in the first place. Right? Talk to your brain about the rewards and the future that you are getting from getting this done.

00:19:22:23 - 00:19:56:20
Wayne Turmel
Wow. I don't know about talking to my brain. It has been a pleasure talking to your brain, which works very differently than mine. We are at the end of our time, alas. Thank you, Angela, for being with us. We will have notes, links with how to reach Angela, Executive Brain Coaching, all of that good stuff. We will have that in the show notes, which are of course on longdistanceworklife.com.

00:19:56:20 - 00:20:30:15
Wayne Turmel
Angela, thank you for being with us. I am going to wrap things up here. If you are interested in this episode or any others, please like and subscribe. Tell the rest of the world. Our listenership is growing in leaps and bounds. Most of that is due to the hard work of Marisa. If you want to reach it myself or Marisa, you can reach us on LinkedIn or wayne@KevinEikenberry.com, Marisa@KevinEikenberry.com.

00:20:31:11 - 00:20:58:14
Wayne Turmel
Tell us your pet peeves. Ask your questions. Let us know what you think. Also, if you are thinking about how to design your team for remote hybrid work, trying to find that balance. Kevin Eikenberry and I have our new book, The Long-Distance Team: Designing Your Team for Everyone's Success. You can learn all about it and get free stuff at longdistanceteambook.com.

00:20:58:23 - 00:21:05:03
Wayne Turmel
That's it for another week. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you to Angela Shurina.

00:21:07:11 - 00:21:25:13
Wayne Turmel
I hope to talk to you again soon, folks. Don't let the weasels get you down.