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Ask Wayne Anything, Technology

Remote Work Rants: To Fake or Not to Fake Your Zoom Background

Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel delve into the nuanced world of remote work environments, particularly focusing on the use of fake Zoom backgrounds. They explore various perspectives on authenticity and professionalism in remote settings, discussing the impact of virtual backgrounds on connection and communication. They also share tips on choosing appropriate backgrounds and the technical aspects of using them effectively.

Key Takeaways

1. Evaluate the Impact of Virtual Backgrounds: Reflect on how your choice of Zoom background affects perceptions of authenticity and professionalism in your remote work environment.
2. Master the Technical Aspects: Familiarize yourself with the technical setup for virtual backgrounds to ensure smooth and professional visuals in your meetings.
3. Contextual Background Selection: Consider the context of your meetings and choose your Zoom background accordingly to maintain a balance between professionalism and personal expression.
4. Embrace Authenticity and Connection: Use your background choices as a tool to express your personality and build connections with your team, while maintaining a professional standard.
5. Stay Informed and Adaptive: Keep abreast of evolving norms and preferences regarding virtual backgrounds within your team and broader professional community.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:46 The Listener's Query: Fake Zoom Backgrounds
01:38 Technical Issues with Virtual Backgrounds
02:03 Authenticity vs. Professionalism in Remote Work
03:10 When to Use and Avoid Virtual Backgrounds
04:08 Cultural and Geographical Considerations
06:18 Technical Tips for Effective Background Usage
07:45 Personalizing Backgrounds for Connection
10:27 Corporate Standards and Individual Expression
13:24 Achieving Authenticity in Remote Interactions
14:26 Professionalism and Context in Background Choice
17:24 Concluding Thoughts and Episode Wrap-up

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

Order

Ask Wayne Anything, Technology

A Hands-On Look at Zoom’s AI Features

In this episode of the Long-Distance Worklife podcast, we delve into Wayne's firsthand experience with the newly introduced AI features in Zoom. After our initial discussion about the theoretical capabilities of these AI tools, Wayne now brings practical insights from his real-world usage. We explore how these features enhance virtual meetings, their impact on remote communication, and whether they live up to the hype. Join us as we dissect the advantages, limitations, and overall effectiveness of AI in transforming the remote work experience, providing valuable takeaways for remote and hybrid teams.

Key Takeaways

1. Experiment with AI captioning for better communication inclusivity.

2. Utilize meeting summaries for efficient recall and note-taking.

3. Stay aware of the ethical implications of AI tools like eye contact manipulation.

4. Regularly update and explore new technological features for team efficiency.

5. Understand the psychological impact of AI's "uncanny valley" in virtual meetings.

6. Strategically integrate new technologies while considering practicality and team dynamics.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:22 - 00:00:18:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife where we help you lead, work, and thrive on remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, fellow remote worker, and joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:19:00 - 00:00:23:20
Wayne Turmel
And it is indeed a lovely day. Hi, Marisa.

00:00:23:21 - 00:00:32:23
Marisa Eikenberry
So today we're going back into even more pet peeves. We still have a bunch that you guys have sent us. And please keep sending us these.

00:00:33:01 - 00:00:37:07
Wayne Turmel
Can I tell you how much I enjoy hearing what makes people crazy?

00:00:37:09 - 00:00:38:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:00:38:12 - 00:00:44:03
Wayne Turmel
It just gives me such joy because there's a part of it that goes. It's not just me.

00:00:44:05 - 00:01:06:04
Marisa Eikenberry
100%. 100%. So we're going to talk about those today. And the first one that I want to start with we actually got from LinkedIn, from Maya Middlemiss, who said taking a video meeting in an unsuitable environment because look at me and my work from anywhere lifestyle. Meanwhile, terrible background noise or they're making you seasick while apparently on a trampoline.

00:01:06:06 - 00:01:13:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Respect the rest of the room. Pay attention to the AV hygiene and UX of the whole call. So Wayne, does this bother you when people are.

00:01:13:07 - 00:01:15:19
Wayne Turmel
AV hygiene and UX oh my!

00:01:15:19 - 00:01:17:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:01:17:04 - 00:01:47:19
Wayne Turmel
Basically what she's saying is try not to be annoying. This is a problem. This is a problem that actually goes back to the invention of the cell phone. Okay. And here's what I mean by that. Those of us who are old enough to remember when we could take conference calls on cell phones for the first time, which means we weren't tied to this big clunky desk phone and we could walk around or take a call in the car.

00:01:48:01 - 00:01:54:13
Wayne Turmel
And more than one conference call had been interrupted by a flushing sound.

00:01:54:16 - 00:01:56:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I would think that.

00:01:56:03 - 00:02:05:05
Wayne Turmel
Various and sundry noises they told us perhaps the person on the line wasn't fully engaged with the call.

00:02:05:07 - 00:02:06:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:02:06:12 - 00:02:32:21
Wayne Turmel
So this is a problem that's been going on for a while. It certainly is an issue. And now the way Maya said that tells me that there are two parts to this. One is the actual functional thing of it's annoying. I have a class that I teach for a university, and more than once my co teacher has turned her video on and I am looking at her cats.

00:02:32:21 - 00:02:55:02
Wayne Turmel
But literally at her cats. But because the cat is walking across the keyboard and she just turns the camera on and I'm like, this is not the view I'm looking for, right? And it can be a little distracting. So some of it is is is there a level of professionalism here? Of course. Right. And respect for your peers.

00:02:55:07 - 00:03:23:16
Wayne Turmel
Some of it is also, hey, I slipped into the office. I'm wearing big boy clothes. I'm doing this. And you're you know, on the couch with your lap desk doing, you know, doing yoga while trying to take this call. It's just annoying. So there's a respect thing, to be sure. The AC hygiene thing is very real. Certainly, people have taken meetings while they're out of the office that, of course, happens.

00:03:23:19 - 00:03:31:09
Wayne Turmel
Does that necessarily then have to be a face time? Nobody wants to watch you bounce up and down on a walk. Right.

00:03:31:13 - 00:03:32:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:03:32:17 - 00:03:55:23
Wayne Turmel
And so there's just a and we don't do this enough as human beings, I might add, which is what is the impact of my behavior or my actions on the other person? Yes, I'm here. I'm responsive. I'm taking your call. I'm not in the office. But by golly, I will help you. Maybe that doesn't have to be a video call.

00:03:56:01 - 00:04:17:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I know. Like, for me personally, like, I get motion sick pretty easily. So when people are, like, walking their dog and they're on video call or I had one the other day, it wasn't too bad. But like, she was in the car, she was not driving. She was in the car and like on this. And it was like, you probably didn't have to have your video on at that point and probably shouldn't.

00:04:17:12 - 00:04:18:12
Wayne Turmel
Not for nothing.

00:04:18:13 - 00:04:29:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I mean, she was a passenger, but still like it was just for me. It was distracting. I couldn't pay attention to the other two people in the hall because she's constantly moving. Right. Right. And.

00:04:29:23 - 00:04:41:12
Wayne Turmel
You know, as we've said so many times, I am all about seeing somebody's face when the call starts. But once the call actually begins, what value are you adding?

00:04:41:14 - 00:04:43:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah, it depends on what kind of.

00:04:43:01 - 00:05:00:23
Wayne Turmel
Perhaps detracting from everybody else's experience. So it's just, you know, give some thought to what is going on. I also have this conversation a lot with people who are at home so they don't use headsets.

00:05:01:03 - 00:05:03:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, my God, drives me crazy.

00:05:03:07 - 00:05:26:22
Wayne Turmel
And there are beeps and bloops and there's noises even in an empty house. There's the dogs go crazy at the neighbors or, you know, somebody lets a leaf blower go insane or something is going on and you get an echo. It's you wear them partly so you can hear I mean, of course, you know, I want to be able to hear what's going on.

00:05:27:01 - 00:05:45:18
Wayne Turmel
But also you do that so that you are being respectful of the other people on the call. And it is a fair accusation that people who are not in an office environment sometimes become oblivious.

00:05:45:20 - 00:05:53:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, we've talked about this before, too. Or you used to be in an office, but then you went home for three years and so now you forget what it's like.

00:05:53:16 - 00:06:02:03
Wayne Turmel
Well, in your reveling in your freedom and, you know, I won't even tell you what I have on my feet right now because it's irrelevant to this conversation.

00:06:02:05 - 00:06:03:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:06:03:03 - 00:06:07:01
Wayne Turmel
Right. I will tell you, it's not something I would wear in the office.

00:06:07:03 - 00:06:09:03
Marisa Eikenberry
And that's okay.

00:06:09:05 - 00:06:15:08
Wayne Turmel
But it's irrelevant to the conversation and it's not distracting, except now everybody's wondering what that is wearing.

00:06:15:10 - 00:06:16:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Obviously, it's funny slippers. It's fine.

00:06:16:23 - 00:06:18:09
Wayne Turmel
No, it's not funny slippers.

00:06:18:11 - 00:06:19:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Secret's safe with us.

00:06:19:12 - 00:06:50:09
Wayne Turmel
Really ugly mariachi sandals. But it's. It's Las Vegas in May. And, you know, I got to run around, take the dog out and do stuff, and it's easy, but it doesn't impact what people are seeing and hearing. So really, it's when you are going to take one of these calls, you need to stop and think what how do my actions impact my teammate?

00:06:50:15 - 00:07:06:03
Wayne Turmel
How do I add value to the meeting? How do I distract and be open to feedback, something that you think might not be a big deal might really bother somebody. I am not a big fan of cats, but.

00:07:06:05 - 00:07:09:11
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm not sure that many people are.

00:07:09:13 - 00:07:20:17
Wayne Turmel
There are people who don't care. We've talked before about people's unnatural affection for their animals on video calls. The assumption that everybody finds it as adorable as they do.

00:07:20:19 - 00:07:24:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Without realizing it's distracted and really not professional in the moment.

00:07:24:03 - 00:07:26:06
Wayne Turmel
And really not professional. Exactly.

00:07:26:09 - 00:07:50:14
Marisa Eikenberry
So. Well, and with that, too, I would also like because, like, you know, we keep talking about video a lot also, but like, you know, there's a background noise thing, too. If you're somewhere that like there's a lot of, you know, you're in a car and the windows open. Well, first of all, if you can maybe put up the window, but like I know we've been on calls before where we've had to tell somebody to mute because we can hear the window and we can't hear anyone else.

00:07:50:16 - 00:08:12:18
Wayne Turmel
Well, I'm a full disclosure. I do not keep my phone live. You know, I don't get rings and announcements. Yeah, but I do have it on Buzz. And there have been times when we've been on calls, there have been times when we've been recording this podcast where my phone goes off and I can ignore it. It's buzzing, it's in the background.

00:08:12:22 - 00:08:23:22
Wayne Turmel
It doesn't bother me what might bother somebody else. Right? Right. Okay. Wayne needs to be better about that. It's just respect and like being a good person and stuff.

00:08:24:03 - 00:08:27:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Amazing, right? The simple things.

00:08:28:01 - 00:08:36:19
Wayne Turmel
The fact that we have to talk to you people about this. Were you raised by wolves? What?

00:08:36:21 - 00:09:00:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Tell us in the comments. But moving on from this, I want to go to Mallory Glassner who said people who constantly watch and or talk about their teammates status colors. Now, I remember when I saw this comment on the post slide put and I was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. What do people do this? What is this? Is this really a thing?

00:09:00:07 - 00:09:22:07
Marisa Eikenberry
And she responded, Oh, yes, it's a thing. So much so that someone actually invented a dongle that makes you stay green. Now, we've actually kind of talked about this concept of always looking like you're online in a previous episode where, you know, I saw somebody put peanut butter on their mouse so that way their dog would look like the mouse.

00:09:22:07 - 00:09:29:21
Marisa Eikenberry
So that would look like you're on line. Like, I don't understand this obsession with weather. Okay, well, fine.

00:09:29:23 - 00:09:57:05
Wayne Turmel
There are two parts to this. Yes. I suspect this is me trying not to just freak out at human behavior. I always assume that even the worst behavior happens for a reason that is logical to the person doing it. Okay, so there are two parts to this. First of all, as the person who's being looked at, am I being responsible with my status updates and things like that?

00:09:57:05 - 00:10:23:11
Wayne Turmel
And why does it matter? Well, it matters because people want to know that I hope it's less that you are working, but that you are available to answer questions or to be a resource or something like that. Is this person available? I have a question. Can I ask Marisa? And if I do ask Marisa, can I expect immediate answer or is it going to come later?

00:10:23:11 - 00:10:42:14
Wayne Turmel
Because she's obviously busy. You and I are situated. I don't have a problem sending you a question. If you say you're not being disturbed or you're not getting your your messages. Cool. I've asked my question. It's off my plate. It's out of my way. And she is a responsible person and she will answer me when she can.

00:10:42:16 - 00:11:03:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and I can't speak for other platforms, but like, you know, sometimes even that that green icon is green icon or lack of it is deceiving. Right. Like, I think slack. If you haven't opened up Slack in 30 minutes, it will show you as offline. I might still be sitting at my computer. I just haven't opened up slack in 30 minutes because I've been on deep work with something.

00:11:03:07 - 00:11:28:11
Wayne Turmel
All right. So here's the thing. Part of it is, as the the person who's been am I being mature and grown up and responsible, like if I'm not going to be at my desk, do I tell people I'm not going to be? Of course. Very often I say I'm out of the office for an hour, but I have my phone with me or I'm out of the office and I cannot be reached until such and such a time.

00:11:28:13 - 00:11:40:14
Wayne Turmel
I'm being respectful of you, my teammates, so that you can do that and you're not waiting for something that's not going to happen. The flip side of her statement, though, is really interesting.

00:11:40:18 - 00:11:41:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:11:41:10 - 00:11:44:14
Wayne Turmel
Which is why do you care so much?

00:11:44:16 - 00:12:01:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, She actually gave us an example about at a previous organization. She used to hear people say all the time, so-and-so is always yellow and never working. Well, first of all, you don't know that there was another one. Well, so-and-so was green at 2 a.m. Well, if you know that so-and-so was green at 2 a.m. that means you were also looking at two.

00:12:01:13 - 00:12:05:11
Marisa Eikenberry
I am like not going to work life balance.

00:12:05:13 - 00:12:35:15
Wayne Turmel
Position here by yourself. Yes. Yeah, Absolute. And so what that says is there is a huge level of mistrust going on. Does that come from and we just talked about in the last episode, do I know what's going on or am I making assumptions? And if this is they continuing pattern, am I going to be a responsible adult and ask somebody about it?

00:12:35:17 - 00:12:43:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, in some cases it's none of your business. Like you're not a manager of that person and you know, like.

00:12:43:22 - 00:12:55:04
Wayne Turmel
You're not your business. It is your business in so far as good teammates offer feedback to each other, fair. And if this is becoming a thing.

00:12:55:06 - 00:12:55:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:12:55:20 - 00:13:04:23
Wayne Turmel
I might say to you, you know, Marisa, you might want to log off. I do not always log off my computer. At the end of the day, I just don't.

00:13:05:01 - 00:13:05:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, which.

00:13:05:15 - 00:13:09:22
Wayne Turmel
Means, yeah, it could look like I'm online at two in the morning. I'm sure it does.

00:13:10:00 - 00:13:27:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. I was going to say, I don't always, since my desktop is both for work and for personal stuff, like, you know, I sometimes leave Slack open but it's still in do not disturb mode. So. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Thankfully, I've never gotten a message that was like, Why are you up at 10 p.m.? And I'm like, Because I'm actually playing the sentence.

00:13:27:23 - 00:13:36:16
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. You know, you know? So why are you so concerned about this? Other person's behavior becomes the question.

00:13:36:18 - 00:13:37:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:13:37:07 - 00:13:52:16
Wayne Turmel
And if they are missing deadlines, if they are not responding, if they are not participating in meetings, if I am that person's manager, that becomes a performance management issue.

00:13:52:18 - 00:13:53:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:13:53:11 - 00:14:12:06
Wayne Turmel
They need to be coached as a team, have you had conversations about what is appropriate behavior and inappropriate behavior? When What does it mean when we see somebody is yellow? What does it mean when somebody is on? Do not disturb all day?

00:14:12:11 - 00:14:19:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Do they have a status saying that like they're in deep work mode or did they just put it in Do not disturb and you have no context at all.

00:14:19:10 - 00:14:40:03
Wayne Turmel
And did you put it on? Do not disturb and forget to turn it back on. I mean anything is possible, but that is the part of that that fascinates me is the people that are annoyed. Yes, that tells me more about the team dynamic than people forget to change their status.

00:14:40:05 - 00:14:58:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Because it doesn't sound like I mean, I might be wrong. And obviously, you know, I we don't have Mallory on right now to confirm or deny this, but it sounds like it's a little bit more of like peer to peer, you know, Oh, my God, Like so-and-so is on at two in the morning than it is like a manager saying, Wow, like you were on at two in the morning.

00:14:58:21 - 00:15:00:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Like, is everything okay?

00:15:00:15 - 00:15:05:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, no, this is peer to peer. This is, this is gossipy, mean girl behavior.

00:15:05:18 - 00:15:07:11
Marisa Eikenberry
100%.

00:15:07:13 - 00:15:16:23
Wayne Turmel
This is this is is now getting petty and silly and whatever. And now I don't know you. I'm not meaning to call you a mean girl.

00:15:17:01 - 00:15:24:03
Marisa Eikenberry
But she was reporting that this happened in a previous organization she used to work for. Not that she was the one asking.

00:15:24:03 - 00:15:31:09
Wayne Turmel
Okay. Okay. That's that's good, because otherwise, Mallory, we would have to chat.

00:15:31:11 - 00:15:46:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, anyway, we don't have time for any more of these today, but thank you so much for going through these too. And thank you to Mallory and Maya for sending these to us. I enjoy going through these months, a month. I don't know about you, Wade, but like, I.

00:15:46:09 - 00:16:05:14
Wayne Turmel
Love listening to people vent. It makes me so happy. So, yes, we want your pet peeves. Not just about meetings and webcams, but anything having to do with remote and hybrid work and just being better and saving our sanity and being less snarky with each other. I'm good with all of that.

00:16:05:16 - 00:16:26:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and you know, and we've talked about this in previous episodes, that's like, you know, we work on a remote team. We've been working on a remote team for a long time. We teach people how to do this. And some of these pet peeves are also ones that we have too. So it's kind of fun to like see it from other perspectives and be like, Oh yes, this is not just this is not just an that's fine.

00:16:26:21 - 00:16:37:22
Wayne Turmel
You know, I realized a long time ago that one of the things that make me feel best in the world is when I realize it's not just me.

00:16:38:00 - 00:16:39:09
Marisa Eikenberry
100%.

00:16:39:15 - 00:16:47:23
Wayne Turmel
I am not the only one who feels this way. I am not the only one who gets frustrated with this. That actually makes me feel better.

00:16:48:01 - 00:16:52:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, isn't there like a whole thing about, like, you have a common enemy and, like, it creates this camaraderie?

00:16:52:23 - 00:16:57:15
Wayne Turmel
Well, we'll just. We'll just team up with Maya against whoever leaves their light on yellow.

00:16:57:15 - 00:17:07:18
Marisa Eikenberry
That's what that was. Mallory But yes, Maya will go after the people who are walking her dog. Weather video.

00:17:07:20 - 00:17:10:06
Wayne Turmel
All right, that's it. We're out of here.

00:17:10:08 - 00:17:29:04
Marisa Eikenberry
But listeners, thank you so much for listening to the longest work life for show notes, transcripts and other resources, Make sure to visit Long-Distance Work life dot com. If you haven't yet subscribe to the podcast, you almost any future episodes including pet peeve episodes just like this and while you're there be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show.

00:17:29:06 - 00:17:46:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Feel free to contact us by email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes and let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic for Wayne tonight to tack on a future episode, including these pet peeves. If you'd like to learn more about remote teams order Wayne and Kevin Barry's new book, The Long Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at LongDistanceTeamBook.com.

00:17:47:02 - 00:17:49:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Thanks for joining us. As Wayne likes to say don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:08 Introduction
00:19 Zoom's New AI Features Discussion
01:28 AI Captioning: Usefulness and Limitations
03:49 Meeting Summary Feature and Its Utility
05:17 Accuracy and Thoroughness of AI Summaries
06:40 Future AI Features and Searchable Recordings
07:37 Smart Clips in Meetings
09:28 Ethical Considerations of AI Features
10:08 The Uncanny Valley in AI
11:38 Adopting AI Innovations: A Practical Approach
13:41 Empowering Early Adopters in Teams
14:30 Technology Adoption Among Teams
16:11 Using AI for Meeting Efficiency
17:01 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Ask Wayne Anything, Technology

Bots in the Boardroom: Decoding AI’s Role in Zoom Meetings

Marisa and Wayne discuss the new AI features that Zoom is introducing to its platform. They explore the potential benefits and challenges of using AI in web meeting platforms and highlight the importance of staying informed about new features and tools. They also discuss the potential impact of AI on presentation skills and communication styles, as well as the value of real-time feedback in improving remote meetings.

Key Takeaways

1. AI in web meeting platforms has been evolving for years, with features like live captioning and simultaneous translation becoming more common.
2. Zoom's AI Companion can provide real-time feedback on presentation skills and communication styles, but it's important to use this feedback consciously and ethically.
3. AI Companion can help with research, filling out support tickets, and summarizing meetings, making remote work more efficient and productive.
4. Zoom's AI can analyze meeting participation and help identify individuals who may be monopolizing the conversation.
5. It's crucial to stay informed about new features and tools in web meeting platforms and to adopt those that make sense for your work and goals.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:03 - 00:00:19:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to the Long-Distance Worklife. Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:19:12 - 00:00:21:03
Wayne Turmel
Hello. How are you?

00:00:21:05 - 00:00:22:21
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00:00:22:23 - 00:00:28:14
Wayne Turmel
I am fine and ready to submit to our robot overlords.

00:00:28:16 - 00:00:49:12
Marisa Eikenberry
So today, listeners, we are actually going to be talking about A.I., which is not a new topic for the show, but it is a new topic for me and Wayne together. And specifically, we're talking about some of Zoom's new A.I. features that they've talked about recently. So I have a link to TechCrunch article about this in our show notes so you can take a look at it.

00:00:49:12 - 00:01:19:03
Marisa Eikenberry
But one of the things that they've talked about is that Zoom is updating and rebranding several of its AI powered features, including the generative A.I. assistant formerly known as Zoom IQ. So it sounds like now it's going to be called the A.I. Companion. And there's lots of different ways that it's going to do stuff. So before we get into the specific things that Zoom AI is about to do, I wanted to talk about this idea of like A.I. in web platforms and web meeting platforms anyway.

00:01:19:05 - 00:01:24:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Like, this might be new for Zoom, but this isn't new for web meeting platforms, right?

00:01:24:09 - 00:01:59:14
Wayne Turmel
It's been coming along for a while. One of the very first things, it probably had been in the background for a while right? When you do this Zoom or WebEx or whatever, automatically does this to compensate. That's been running in the background for a while. One of the first things that kind of caught my eye a couple of years ago is when WebEx was suddenly able to hold a live meeting but caption it simultaneously in three different languages.

00:01:59:16 - 00:02:01:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Which is so wild.

00:02:01:18 - 00:02:31:09
Wayne Turmel
And insane that that is a thing, right, that I can be talking to you. And in the bottom, somebody can follow along in German or whatever. Mm hmm. So that is extremely cool. The challenge. I made the joke earlier about my robot overlords. The problem when we talk about A.I. and this is true, and I know that a lot of people listening to this are already sick of the conversation because it's all anybody's talking about.

00:02:31:09 - 00:02:58:22
Wayne Turmel
Like, all but the way that I look at it is that artificial intelligence is a neutral thing. It just kind of says this is happening, this is something that you can do. It's up to us whether or not we do it. And the part that freaked me out when I saw the article and why I sent the article to you, was it will give you real time feedback on your presentation skills and communication style.

00:02:59:00 - 00:03:02:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, that is the part that kind of caught my eye as well.

00:03:03:01 - 00:03:19:10
Wayne Turmel
Now, as somebody who has spent almost 30 years teaching presentation skills, I know that the first thing that happens when you say to somebody, you know, you say a lot is immediately they say more often.

00:03:19:12 - 00:03:27:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and I know that if it were me, it would be like, slow down. I already know I'm doing the best.

00:03:27:19 - 00:03:44:13
Wayne Turmel
You did not say and you said, slow down. So the feedback that you are get is accurate. In the long run, it's probably helpful. But as I'm running the meeting and up pops a little message that says, make eye contact with the camera.

00:03:44:15 - 00:03:45:22
Marisa Eikenberry
You're right.

00:03:46:00 - 00:04:06:20
Wayne Turmel
It is going to throw me off. And the good news is that these things, as near as we can tell now, I have investigated this a little bit. The key word there is very little bit. These tools need to be turned on. It's not like you're going to start open up WebEx and suddenly it's yelling at you for.

00:04:06:22 - 00:04:25:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, on that note, according to TechCrunch and Zoom's website, this has already been added. Well, the Hey I campaign in the you're talking about real time feedback that's going to come in the spring. So at the time that we're recording this, this is September of 2023, so you're not even going to see this until spring of 2024 anyway.

00:04:25:04 - 00:04:33:17
Marisa Eikenberry
But some of these other features are we're going to talk about are already turned on. If you have a paid account, it sounds like it's an opt out, not an opt in.

00:04:33:19 - 00:04:56:06
Wayne Turmel
Okay, Good to know. So time to invest it. Go into your account. Right. And see what the heck has been turned on. And this has been going on for a while. It's like I have been following web presentation platforms for 20 years. And the cycle time for new features has just gotten shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter.

00:04:56:06 - 00:05:03:08
Wayne Turmel
And every time you open up your platform, there's something new or some button has been moved and it's not where it was before.

00:05:03:10 - 00:05:10:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, and so-and-so has this feature now, so obviously this one has to catch up and Yeah, yeah.

00:05:10:03 - 00:05:34:06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, there's a lot of that. The thing that we need to remember is every once in a while, stop and find out what's new. And the reason that that matters is they're putting in all these new features and all of this cool stuff. And at the end of the day, it's the same problem. 80% of people use 20% of the features.

00:05:34:11 - 00:05:46:02
Wayne Turmel
So you can have all of these cool problems, but you don't know whether they are cool features or evil features or whatever they are until you actually know they're there and try them.

00:05:46:06 - 00:06:01:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, thankfully some of these platforms will do notifications and stuff to tell you. I know Slack does that for us. It'll tell us that there's new features and then I go look them up. But for those people who are using platforms that don't do that, you know, periodically, look yeah.

00:06:01:09 - 00:06:28:20
Wayne Turmel
And it does matter. I mean, the whole point of using these tools, I know that most of us do the bare minimum because we're getting our job done and we're not techies and we don't enjoy playing and poking around and seeing what they do. But we have to remember the purpose of these tools. All appearances to the contrary, the purposes of these tools are to make us better.

00:06:28:21 - 00:06:51:13
Wayne Turmel
They invented these things so that we could do something better, faster, smarter than we did it before. Yeah, if you blithely ignore that A you're doing your job as slowly and badly and efficiently as you always have and not taking advantage of the opportunity to improve. But everybody else is right.

00:06:51:13 - 00:07:23:11
Marisa Eikenberry
I know that there's been a huge conversation about AI in general and you have some people that are just like, That's stupid. I'm going to ignore it. I'm not going to pay attention at all. And like, I'm not saying that you need to figure out AI and every piece of your job. Like, no, like, absolutely not. But people who are completely ignoring AI are going to be behind the people who have figured out how to make it work in their job or figured out how to utilize it in their business and doing things faster, better, smarter than those that aren't touching it at all.

00:07:23:14 - 00:07:36:20
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, and it's it's a it's an issue because there are things AI is behavior neutral. It is neither good nor bad. It is just a thing. That's what I have to keep telling myself. Yeah.

00:07:36:22 - 00:07:39:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. It is only as good as whatever you put in it.

00:07:39:06 - 00:07:53:14
Wayne Turmel
Right. For example, and I can't remember if I've told this story before when Kevin insisted that I get a chatty account and start playing with it, the first thing I did was I said, Give me a bio of author Wayne Turmel, and I.

00:07:53:14 - 00:07:54:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Did this for you too.

00:07:54:23 - 00:08:07:17
Wayne Turmel
He gave me two paragraphs. Great stuff, well-written, concise. It also gave me a degree. I do not possess and credited me with a book I did not write.

00:08:07:19 - 00:08:19:15
Marisa Eikenberry
That happened to me when I put in my own name just to be like, What is it because I'm so intertwined with you? With this podcast? It had your credentials as mine, which I was like, It's very flattering.

00:08:19:20 - 00:08:48:04
Wayne Turmel
And hey, listen, bask in the past in the radiated glow and know you are welcome to whatever humble bits of glory I can share with you. But here's the thing. It took me 30 seconds to fix the problem, and suddenly I had a really good buy that I, by the way, have copied and pasted and used.

00:08:48:06 - 00:08:59:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. I use A.I. to help out with podcast features. Sometimes finding things like timestamps of our main points and things like that. Like there are good reasons to use A.I..

00:08:59:13 - 00:09:18:16
Wayne Turmel
So let's get specific to what some of the things that this is not. And I got no so of course qualified to have the, you know, do we need to worship our robots? Overlord overlords discussion but it's there's some stuff here that we need to think about, right?

00:09:18:21 - 00:09:33:03
Marisa Eikenberry
So I mean, like we talked about already, you know that the AI campaign is going be able to give real time feedback on how fast and how often you're talking versus listening so you can adjust in the moment. That's a quote straight from the Zoom blog. But some of the other things that I think are kind of interesting.

00:09:33:05 - 00:09:35:13
Wayne Turmel
Right now, the AI saying Marisa Brie, you.

00:09:35:18 - 00:09:56:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Know, which. Okay, actually, before we get on to that, like all I can think too, is some of these features and we'll talk about more of them here in a minute. To me, it feels like it's adding an extra distraction when we're already having an issue, keeping people's attention and engagement in meetings. What are your thoughts on that?

00:09:56:11 - 00:10:08:04
Wayne Turmel
Oh, yes. And okay. Yes, that's absolutely like I said, as a presentation skills coach, the minute I say look at your audience, people's brains freak out.

00:10:08:06 - 00:10:09:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:10:09:16 - 00:10:36:03
Wayne Turmel
Because they have to consciously do something that they have been doing unconsciously. And the minute you do that, it's uncomfortable and weird. So that feedback in real time, if I'm expecting it, if I've said, Hey, you know, let me know if I'm speaking too quickly and it says you're speaking too quickly, that's valuable feedback to me. I'm expecting it.

00:10:36:05 - 00:10:43:06
Wayne Turmel
I'm looking for it. I am using that to achieve a goal. This is now useful information.

00:10:43:08 - 00:10:45:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm. That makes sense.

00:10:45:16 - 00:11:16:01
Wayne Turmel
Right? So it's also really good where I expect this is going to be super helpful. It's forensically okay. And I don't mean cutting open bodies. I mean, after the meeting, you can ask it to analyze your presentation. You can ask it to analyze your mean who spoke the most on the meeting and how much did they contribute. And we find out that Bob is just monopolizing the meeting and we have the efforts.

00:11:16:03 - 00:11:20:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Now, it's no longer our word against Bob's.

00:11:20:05 - 00:11:52:21
Wayne Turmel
So I can see where and this caveat goes with everything involving A.I.. If you're conscious of what you are going to use the information for and you are ethical about how you use that information, it will be incredibly helpful. It's like the simultaneous translation stuff. How can that not be Google Friend? We have automatic transcribe option that is happening.

00:11:52:22 - 00:12:14:17
Wayne Turmel
I can take and they've had the app for a while where I can take notes which basically what it does is somebody talks for a period of time and then they summarize, right? So if I'm speaking on the meeting, there's going to be a big chunk of information there. But and then Marisa asked this.

00:12:14:19 - 00:12:16:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:12:16:13 - 00:12:48:17
Wayne Turmel
That's useful. That's really helpful information. So, you know, this stuff is like I say, you have to understand why they're giving you. What are you supposed to do with the information? Because it it's easy to just get completely overloaded by all of the feedback that you're getting. I mean, one thing is, as a human being, if I'm giving you feedback on your presentation skills, I'd stick there.

00:12:48:17 - 00:12:50:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:12:50:06 - 00:12:54:16
Wayne Turmel
If I said everything that you were doing wrong.

00:12:54:18 - 00:12:55:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:12:55:17 - 00:13:16:18
Wayne Turmel
Or that you could do better, you're I would roll up in the back of your head and your head would explode. And you wouldn't hate me forever. Right? I pick my shots if somebody is an experienced presenter. Mm hmm. I will give them very specific, like concrete, perhaps techie advice.

00:13:16:20 - 00:13:18:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:13:18:15 - 00:13:52:13
Wayne Turmel
Because they're already working at a certain competence level and they want to get better and improve, but they're going to improve incrementally if somebody it's just awful. If somebody can barely put two words together and there are people like that and I've worked with them my entire career, if I can just get them to breathe and look at the camera, that's the way I'm going to coach them differently and give them different feedback than somebody who is super competent and trying to.

00:13:52:15 - 00:13:53:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, get to the next level.

00:13:54:00 - 00:13:58:07
Wayne Turmel
Get to the next level. I can make that decision.

00:13:58:09 - 00:14:00:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? I cannot.

00:14:00:17 - 00:14:17:04
Wayne Turmel
Right. And I cannot or at least doesn't. Yeah, Yeah. So if, you know, Bob gets feedback from the A.I. and it says, Yeah, you could slow down a little. And then Mary gets feedback from the A.I. that says page 105 and it's you.

00:14:17:06 - 00:14:17:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Mary.

00:14:17:14 - 00:14:22:22
Wayne Turmel
My list of stuff you're going to destroy Mary. And that's not the intent.

00:14:23:01 - 00:14:46:11
Marisa Eikenberry
All right. Well, and so, I mean, I know that we've talked a lot about what it will be like for presentation skills, but one of the other things that it also talks about is real time feedback on people's presence in meetings. Now, to me, I take that as, you know, they're going to zoom is going to tell, you know, my boss, whomever is running the meeting, if I look over at my screen next to me.

00:14:46:15 - 00:14:59:11
Marisa Eikenberry
But what the AI doesn't know is I'm looking over at my screen and I'm typing something because, you know, Kevin just asked a question and I'm going to find out what the answer is without interrupting the meeting. But I don't know that.

00:14:59:13 - 00:15:40:01
Wayne Turmel
This is a supercharged version of something that the original web platform tools used using guide and got away from because they got used for evil more than good early days, WebEx and the stuff that Microsoft started with and all the dozens of tools that no longer exist, they have a thing. They still have it called the attention meter, where you can tell whether the screen that somebody has open is your meeting or if they've minimized it or open another screen in front of it.

00:15:40:03 - 00:15:41:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:15:41:07 - 00:16:12:06
Wayne Turmel
And as with all things that got horribly abused, people would say, don't you dare open a screen when I'm talking to you or you know, darn it, Marisa, come back. You know, I can see that you're not paying attention. Well, that's evil and stupid and largely untrue. So why are you using the tools now when I get that feedback that maybe people maybe it's time for a break?

00:16:12:08 - 00:16:13:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:16:13:09 - 00:16:25:20
Wayne Turmel
Maybe I should give them a compelling reason to actually pay attention. There's a wacky notion. I look at that as feedback for me as the presenter as much as anything else.

00:16:25:22 - 00:16:30:12
Marisa Eikenberry
And I can see that being a really good reason to use that kind of software for sure.

00:16:30:14 - 00:16:41:08
Wayne Turmel
And so again, to say we're going to give you feedback, then tell me what I'm supposed to do with it.

00:16:41:10 - 00:17:04:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I know that we're still very much in the early days. They just announced this very recently, but I'm I'm going to be very interested to see that piece of things when it comes out in the spring. But one of the other things that I think is already enabled now is during a meeting you're going to be able to ask to a companion to help you research critical information, help fill out support tickets.

00:17:04:23 - 00:17:22:02
Marisa Eikenberry
So that way, to your point, we don't have to open up another window. We can be more engaged in the meeting, which is fair. But the other thing that I find fascinating with this companion is that if you're late to a meeting, you can ask the companion questions about what you've missed.

00:17:22:04 - 00:17:27:12
Wayne Turmel
And again, this gets back to the trend. You know, this is transcription on steroids, right?

00:17:27:13 - 00:17:28:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:17:28:11 - 00:17:37:06
Wayne Turmel
I mean, how many times have you gotten to a meeting late and you turn to the person next? You can go, What did I miss? And they say this, this and this, and now you're caught.

00:17:37:08 - 00:17:43:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, yeah. Or you heard something, but you didn't pay attention for a second and you got to figure out what they just said.

00:17:43:16 - 00:17:56:19
Wayne Turmel
I don't have them or instance sitting next to me that I can lean over and whisper. Right. I've got whatever horrible Anglo-Saxon name they're going to give the guy all over.

00:17:56:21 - 00:17:59:14
Marisa Eikenberry
He's just a I companion, so it may not have a name.

00:17:59:16 - 00:18:03:07
Wayne Turmel
Oh, we're humans. We will name, you know we will.

00:18:03:10 - 00:18:25:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. So I do find that part really fascinating. And just this idea that, like, you can ask questions during the meeting without necessarily interrupting the meeting to ask a question. So that could be very helpful and very fascinating. And the other thing is that when the meeting is over, it will actually like we've already talked about, you know, it's summarizing as we're going.

00:18:25:09 - 00:18:52:18
Marisa Eikenberry
So it'll provide a summary after the meeting. It will also do what they're calling smart clips and so little pieces of the meeting about different subjects that you don't have to rewatch the entire meeting. You can just get that section about that particular topic. I know that sometimes AI is not always great about clipping, so I'll kind of be interested to see how it clips things because it tends to cut off things that should have been in a section.

00:18:52:20 - 00:19:00:03
Wayne Turmel
But we also know that a good percentage of the people listening to us right now came to us because I took some clips.

00:19:00:07 - 00:19:01:00
Marisa Eikenberry
That's true is.

00:19:01:01 - 00:19:26:11
Wayne Turmel
Goes and they said, Oh, that sounds really interesting. So we already know that this happens, but it's also and we're out of time for the other stuff. But I just let me wrap this up. Yeah. It's also one of the things that happens right now is if somebody can't make the meeting, Kevin records the meeting.

00:19:26:13 - 00:19:27:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:19:27:08 - 00:20:00:02
Wayne Turmel
Well, a couple of things. First of all, a lot of organizations, their i.t department won't let them do that because of bandwidth and network problems. Right? And we don't want people recording stuff that shouldn't be recording, in fact, kinds of things. So that's not going to work. But even if they do record it, you really want to sit through an hour in the first 20 minutes as status reports and stuff you don't care about to find the piece of the meeting that you actually do want to hear.

00:20:00:07 - 00:20:01:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:20:01:09 - 00:20:17:10
Wayne Turmel
I can help you do that. And you can actually say, you know what? We're not going to include the status report, so let's get right to the discussion on X. That's kind of cool. Yeah. And that's an actual productivity tool.

00:20:17:12 - 00:20:37:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, they could actually be really helpful. I know it'll also add like action items and here's who to email and all that kind of stuff. So it's going to be very interesting to see how this continues to play out and if any of you have access to some of these tools and are testing these out, let us know because I want to see how this works.

00:20:37:13 - 00:20:49:07
Wayne Turmel
Well, and I promise that I will be doing some more research on this. The important thing is that we are they're not going to be making fewer tools.

00:20:49:09 - 00:20:50:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:20:50:17 - 00:20:51:08
Wayne Turmel
Away.

00:20:51:10 - 00:20:52:07
Marisa Eikenberry
There will always be a.

00:20:52:07 - 00:21:19:12
Wayne Turmel
Duty to happen. And every idea, no matter how harebrained, started with somebody trying to solve a problem, whether it does it effectively or not, is a open question. But these things were created for a reason, and so they are worth investigating and we need to adapt, adopt the things that make sense to adopt. We need to figure out what we want.

00:21:19:12 - 00:21:33:02
Wayne Turmel
Our machine overlords to help us with and what we don't need. And we need to maintain our critical faculties to not take everything that comes at us as gospel.

00:21:33:04 - 00:21:36:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. I get things wrong all the time.

00:21:36:07 - 00:22:03:20
Wayne Turmel
Well, it's not even that A.I. gets things wrong. It can't create content. It can't tailor information to individual humans. It can't tell the difference between a joke and a statement, which, if it's analyzing me, is going to cause problems. Yes. So there will be much more about this. Thank you for joining us, Marisa. Bring us home.

00:22:03:20 - 00:22:21:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Thank you so much for talking to us about this. I have no doubt that this will be one of many A.I. conversations as we go. And like I said, any of you listeners that have questions about this, topics that you want us to cover in this, please let us know. And thank you for listening to the long distance work life for Shownotes Transcripts and other resources.

00:22:21:23 - 00:22:41:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit longdistanceworklife.com if you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes. Let us know that you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00:22:42:01 - 00:22:55:19
Marisa Eikenberry
We'd love to hear from you. And if you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at Long Distance team book Dot.com. Thanks for joining us. As Wayne likes to say, don’t let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:49 Zoom's new AI features
01:19 AI in web meeting platforms isn't new
02:31 AI Companion provides real-time feedback on presentation skills
04:06 Importance of staying updated on platform features
06:01 Benefits of utilizing AI in job or business
07:23 AI is behavior neutral
08:07 Personal experiences with AI inaccuracies
08:48 Practical uses of AI
09:18 Considerations and discussion on AI usage
09:33 Discussion on the potential distractions of AI in meetings
10:08 Importance of conscious use and ethical considerations of AI feedback
11:16 AI's forensic analysis of presentations and meeting contributions
14:46 Real-time feedback on presence in meetings and potential misuse
16:12 Feedback on attention as a tool for presenter improvement
17:04 AI companion's role in research and catching up in meetings
18:25 Summarize and provide smart clips after meetings
20:37 Request for feedback from listeners testing AI tools
21:19 Importance of critically evaluating AI tools and information
22:21 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

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Guests, Leadership, Technology, Working Remotely

Keeping Teams Engaged in the Digital Age with Vivek Nigam

Vivek Nigam, of ReTeam, discusses the challenges organizations face with team engagement and retention in the changing work landscape. He emphasizes the importance of building a culture of engagement, participation, and belonging to improve productivity, innovation, and retention. ReTeam offers a platform and service model that helps leaders and individual contributors enhance team dynamics and make engagement easier. Vivek also highlights the value of natural intelligence in combination with AI tools to augment human interactions and improve communication.

Key Takeaways

1. Organizations need to adapt to the changing work landscape and focus on improving team engagement, participation, and a sense of belonging.
2. ReTeam provides a platform and service model to help leaders and individual contributors enhance team dynamics and make engagement easier.
3. Natural intelligence, combined with AI tools, can augment human interactions and improve communication.
4. ReTeam's AI tools can assist with tasks such as drafting recognition messages, sentiment analysis, and providing personalized suggestions based on individual profiles.

Featured Guest

Name: Vivek Nigam

About Vivek: Founder and CEO of BeRemote. With over 25 years of experience in software architecture, design, and development, he has a passion for creating innovative solutions that improve engagement, collaboration, and inclusion in the workplace.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:05 - 00:00:09:02
Wayne Turmel
Hello there, buddy.

00:00:09:03 - 00:00:35:11
Wayne Turmel
Welcome once again to the Long Distance Work Life podcast, where we try to make sense of remote and hybrid work and just generally how the world of how we make a living is changing on a regular basis. My name is Wayne Terminal. I am a master trainer here at the Kevin Eikenberry Group. This is sadly an episode without Marissa.

00:00:35:13 - 00:00:53:23
Wayne Turmel
But the good news when we don't have Marissa is we generally have somebody else really smart and interesting. And that certainly happens to be the case today. Vivek Nigam is with a company called Re Team. He is going to tell you all about it right now. Vivek, how are you, ma'am?

00:00:54:01 - 00:00:56:17
Vivek Nigam
I'm doing great. Wayne, Hey, great to talk to you again. All right.

00:00:56:21 - 00:01:06:08
Wayne Turmel
Well, you say that now. I generally find that wears off. So who are you? What's re team? Sure. What the heck is the deal?

00:01:06:09 - 00:01:27:23
Vivek Nigam
Yeah. So my name is Vivek among the founder of the companies. Copy, Remo. We also go by re team, their product called Re Team in the market. We work with companies who are experiencing challenges with team engagement as they adapt to this change of work, work, work, working place and retention has been strained with 20 to 30% turnover.

00:01:28:01 - 00:01:52:23
Vivek Nigam
Team engagement is lower by 15%, innovation is low by 25%, and traditional methods of getting people engaged just aren't working the same way. Right thing. We need some different methods. And with the new inflationary climate, you find that companies are, you know, revenues are even getting strained as well. So we want to work with companies who are looking to change their engagement culture, improve team participation, and build a better sense of belonging.

00:01:53:01 - 00:02:10:05
Vivek Nigam
Those to us are the foundations of how do you improve productivity, innovation and retention. So that's who we are all about. We have a platform, we have a service model, and we engage with people and we've got some AI that we've been integrating, although we're really big fans of what we call natural intelligence.

00:02:10:07 - 00:02:37:13
Wayne Turmel
Okay, so let's hold it right there and what you just said there. And we will have links, of course, to Vivek's Company and all kinds of good stuff on our show notes on long distance work life dot com. Okay, So let's get back because obviously when I have ten people on the show, my question is always what was the problem you were solving?

00:02:37:13 - 00:02:49:18
Wayne Turmel
Yes. Yes. What what was going on or what is going on that in your case, team leaders in particular need assistance doing?

00:02:49:20 - 00:03:10:01
Vivek Nigam
Yeah. So I'll tell a quick story and then delve into a few more of those things. So Genesis for this whole thing was actually growing up and watching my dad and how he how he went through his life. My dad was born in India. You were super smart guy, but running through the organizations here, he never attained that sense of belonging.

00:03:10:03 - 00:03:27:16
Vivek Nigam
And I remember the conversations in the kitchen between my my mom and dad. And I knew exactly what they were. Is my dad capacity for promotion yet again. And it wasn't like, say, the Met. He had three master's degrees and he worked hard and I thought he was out of the house all the time, but he never quite felt like he belonged.

00:03:27:18 - 00:03:55:17
Vivek Nigam
So as I was growing up, he gave me some advice and he would say, you know, when you start working, I want you to go out for a beer with everybody. Those are the things I didn't do and I never fit in. So when I started working out, find people that reminded me of my dad and people who are smart, quiet, hard workers, but just never really participated in team meetings, never really engaged with the team and wanted to find ways to get them to be more participative, give them a better opportunity.

00:03:55:19 - 00:04:05:14
Vivek Nigam
So I always made it my personal mission to help them. And I'll tell you, 100% of the time, when I gave them a stretch goal and they had that opportunity, they were absolutely brilliant.

00:04:05:15 - 00:04:28:16
Wayne Turmel
And so I love that you said that, Vivek, because that's actually my mission as well. I got into this crazy business because I knew so many smart, talented people with communication skills were holding them back. So whether they lacked the skills or they lacked the ability or confidence to use them effectively.

00:04:28:18 - 00:04:43:19
Vivek Nigam
Exactly. And sometimes you just don't know. It's not that you don't have the skills. You don't know what to say, how to how to use those. And so we built a platform around those trying to increase engagement, and we're finding some great results and robust mission of of a team.

00:04:43:21 - 00:05:08:22
Wayne Turmel
And I love that. Now, help me out because in our book, The Long Distance Leader, and what started this whole craziness for us is this notion that you think leadership first location second, right. That good leaders, people who are really good proactive leaders are making this remote thing work because they're doing all the things leaders have to do.

00:05:09:00 - 00:05:23:19
Wayne Turmel
What is the point of your technology and the work that you do? Is the point to reinforce those folks or is it to help everybody else who kind of isn't?

00:05:23:21 - 00:05:24:08
Vivek Nigam
Yeah.

00:05:24:10 - 00:05:25:18
Wayne Turmel
Doing so great.

00:05:25:20 - 00:05:42:09
Vivek Nigam
Yeah. Yes. And yes. What we find, a lot of times we'll run into people that say, hey, we got these recognition programs, we're doing these things, we're doing this stuff, engagement. And and I just love that. And especially somebody who says to me, Yeah, we built psychological safety and starts using those terms like, this is a kindred spirit.

00:05:42:09 - 00:06:07:17
Vivek Nigam
These are the people that really are making a lot of effort to do all the right things. So how do we help them? They're doing all the right things. They don't necessarily need what we provide, and that's okay. They're already achieving the mission that we're on. What we can do is make that easier for them, right? They're doing a lot of activities, doing a lot of preparation, and we can provide them some tools and some processes that just facilitate and make that easier.

00:06:07:19 - 00:06:24:08
Vivek Nigam
AS Yeah, so for example, a lot of our our tools are all about getting to know each other. And so these are things that you can use in the platform with one click and say, Hey, I'm just checking in to see how you're doing and get, get some responses and start to see a trend. Or I want to say thank you.

00:06:24:08 - 00:06:41:17
Vivek Nigam
And instead of having to do a formal event and make a big thank you, you can do it in one click. Record your voice and record your video and make it very authentic. Say, Hey guys, I just want to thank you for the work you guys did last week. And it's amazing how how impactful that is for people.

00:06:41:19 - 00:07:05:15
Vivek Nigam
So those are the things we want to get people into the habit of, of being being recognition based and thankful culture. And it just helps those people do that. For the remaining, I would say 95, 96% of people who have the right intentions and are doing these things but are so busy doing other things, we provide a platform to really help them build engagement and make this make this easy for them.

00:07:05:15 - 00:07:28:02
Vivek Nigam
So it doesn't is not something that has to take 20 or 30 hours a week to really engage your people. And we've heard numbers like that from a lot of people. So we do want to help that that that other, you know, I think is about 95% of people who know they want to do this, do some pieces of it and all, they generally feel like they could do this better.

00:07:28:04 - 00:07:54:22
Wayne Turmel
Now, you spend a lot of time talking about natural intelligence versus artificial intelligence. And I know the minute I said artificial intelligence, about half the audience's eyes rolled up in the back of their head, and the other half are, you know, willfully submitting to the robot overlords. But what is in your mind? What's the difference and how do they work together or compete?

00:07:55:00 - 00:07:57:14
Wayne Turmel
Help me with that. Yeah.

00:07:57:16 - 00:08:17:00
Vivek Nigam
Anybody who's played with chatbots or some other A.I. technologies and boy is just exploding right now. Right. These things have come a long way in a very short period of time. It'll give you the sense that human beings are going to be replaced and completely obsolete in a matter of years. It just feels that way. And we don't think that's the case.

00:08:17:01 - 00:08:39:10
Vivek Nigam
Right. So these tools are absolutely amazing. But we talk about when I talk about natural intelligence is the stuff that you and I, human beings can infer that we can see from each other. A.I. can pick up some of those things, and it's great at that. But it gives us the insights. It helps us be better. So we believe in taking A.I. and constraining it.

00:08:39:12 - 00:08:59:04
Vivek Nigam
So it's not just an open ended, you know, solve all the problems of the universe. It really starts to be okay. Let's go straight down to let's solve this problem. And the first one that we rolled out with, which we absolutely love find a better way to say something. It could be anything. Let's say I want to say thank you, Wayne.

00:08:59:04 - 00:09:16:03
Vivek Nigam
Thank you, Wayne, for for giving me this platform, letting me be on your show and people who are very good at it, they'll come up with something beautifully eloquent and it's wonderful people who aren't. And we have a person on our team. She's from Brazil and she says, Looking is my second language. And sometimes I struggle with this.

00:09:16:05 - 00:09:33:00
Vivek Nigam
They can go back to what we call the reaching assistant, leverage some AI, and say, Hey, I want to say thank you to Wayne and I want to make it sincere. How do I do that? And we'll come up with a nice paragraph that sounds really formal, sounds very businesslike. It's really nicely written. And they can use that and make some minor edits and boom.

00:09:33:00 - 00:09:42:23
Vivek Nigam
Now what you've done is you've taken I made it in a way that will enhance what we do interpersonally, and we think that's very valuable.

00:09:43:01 - 00:10:21:16
Wayne Turmel
So just so I catch this as a leader, you say I need to reward and recognize this person and I want to do that. I'm not really sure how you use a AI to give you that first draft to put it together, and then you can tweak and adjust that or you can say, Yeah, that's great. Zuckerberg I think that's the thing with A.I. and my fear is not that I exist, it's that people are inherently either lazy or rushed for time, depending on how generous you feel.

00:10:21:18 - 00:10:44:02
Wayne Turmel
For example, you know, the first thing I did with Shaggy and I don't know if I've ever said this on the show, first thing I did with Chad JP was write me a one paragraph bio for author Wayne Turmel, because I hate when people say, Send me your bio. And it sent me this very lovely, concise bio, which also gave me a degree I do not possess.

00:10:44:08 - 00:11:07:11
Wayne Turmel
And I did not write. Yeah, yeah. Now, you know, if I'm rushed and in a hurry, it would be really easy. And by the way, since Chatbot thinks I'm smarter than I am, cool, It's cool to just use that without using the the human thinking up front and then on the back end. Right.

00:11:07:13 - 00:11:23:16
Vivek Nigam
Right. Yeah. You know, and and as you as you recognized earlier. So I came from the tech world and it actually reminds me a lot of when I was in college, at one point, someone said to me it was a professor who said it said to give us all these software tools to analyze how do you do this?

00:11:23:20 - 00:11:46:20
Vivek Nigam
This an electrical engineering class, I think was and I said, remember, design happens here, right? So the thought process has to happen here and you have to strategize here. Everything else is a tool. And so in our minds, we take A.I. in the same way, even as fascinating and as amazing as it can be as much of a time server as can be.

00:11:46:22 - 00:12:16:16
Vivek Nigam
We also believe that the human capital, the human condition, the human intelligence that national intelligence is really critical. And we use that as a tool to augment what we're doing. And, you know, my lesson learned back then was I went to no cool software and I relied on that only tool. And sure enough, I didn't realize what I was doing and spare you the details, but I saturated a circuit and and handed in really proud, got back F and Y because guess what you did?

00:12:16:17 - 00:12:37:19
Vivek Nigam
You relied on the tool and not on on your thought process and your human condition. We think it's the same way. If we rely completely on AI, it is going to bite you at some point. We think the combination of what you do, what you think about that, you know, focus on human experience and that interpersonal experience, plus A.I. is really powerful.

00:12:37:20 - 00:13:07:12
Wayne Turmel
AI That's great, and thank you for that explanation. This is really in the weeds and I really don't want to spend a lot of time there. But does the AI I yeah, I take into account things like work stats. So for example. Yeah. You know, Bob is an introvert and Rajesh is you know really out there will is Taylor and adjust some of that to.

00:13:07:18 - 00:13:30:05
Vivek Nigam
Yeah exactly exactly right so what we do when you're kind of say something and say a thank you it does not right It tries to give you a level thank you. And that's done on purpose. One of our missions is to level the social playing field work to help people who aren't as comfortable and people are comfortable give them a little bit more of a closer.

00:13:30:07 - 00:13:49:16
Vivek Nigam
We never wanted to be everybody equal and one line, but get it, get the plane feel a little bit closer. So for things like that, it does not, however, we do a lot of other things. We do sentiment analysis. We do a lot of other components. Actually today we just talk about one that's going to be rolling out very shortly.

00:13:49:18 - 00:14:12:22
Vivek Nigam
We're based on the speech that you use. Like, you know, we do a lot of video. If you post something in a video, it is not going to take that and extract from it some to do some natural actions that we should take as a team based on what was being proposed. A lot of we would do is share ideas for innovation and based on the ideas in fact out what those are.

00:14:13:00 - 00:14:41:03
Vivek Nigam
When we do that, we actually feed in profiles for the user. And the reason we do that, if I'm talking and it knows when I talk, I, I talk all over the place, right? My, my mind will go this way and that way of, you know, kind of, kind of have a little bit of a tree of thought sometimes it will give me a series that may be a little bit lengthier, but one of the guys on our team really smart, much more reserved, much more organized.

00:14:41:06 - 00:14:56:19
Vivek Nigam
It's going to give them a shorter list. That is something that he can really manage and that the team can manage according to his profile. So, yeah, there is a combination of feeding in behavioral information and of an information perspective.

00:14:56:21 - 00:15:04:09
Wayne Turmel
One of the coolest and also scariest things I have heard in a long time is the notion of sentiment analysis.

00:15:04:10 - 00:15:04:23
Vivek Nigam
Oh yeah.

00:15:05:04 - 00:15:12:00
Wayne Turmel
That that is. And in the fiction writer in me is fascinated by yeah.

00:15:12:02 - 00:15:34:18
Vivek Nigam
It's it's really powerful we've got an engagement where we you know we working with the company that started out actually back in December and rolled out a whole new process and we were just there just to help build the engagement as well. And at the same time, watch the comments and the behaviors in the platform. You can see in December everything was very negative.

00:15:34:21 - 00:15:56:08
Vivek Nigam
People were not happy. People don't always react to change very well, but there's a lot of factors why. But then but the condition was that people were not happy. That's just sentiment. That's just based on what they're saying, what they're posting, what the things that they're doing was to see as as the company engaged and spent the time investing in the engagement month over month.

00:15:56:13 - 00:16:15:09
Vivek Nigam
Little by little, it got better and better. And I remember we had a little celebration when it hit neutral and said, Hey, now they're neutral this great today, they're positive, which was a great thing. And just use it as a as a tool. Like what am I dealing with? Like, how are people feeling? I think that's I think it's actually very powerful.

00:16:15:11 - 00:16:29:21
Wayne Turmel
So let's flip this. We don't have a lot of time left. Sure. Fascinated because this started with your father, the individual contributor who is feeling it. Let's put this on its head as an individual contributor.

00:16:29:23 - 00:16:30:02
Vivek Nigam
Yeah.

00:16:30:05 - 00:16:39:09
Wayne Turmel
How will I and the different tools that are available to us make their life our life easier?

00:16:39:11 - 00:16:58:21
Vivek Nigam
And so I'm going to jump to the grandiose vision piece here and you will see this and I'll give you a prime use case in working at a corporation years ago and and working with a woman I work with, she she'd been working at the same company for 30 years, 30 plus years, and she was a vice president.

00:16:58:22 - 00:17:18:00
Vivek Nigam
She heard her career was great. But she told me the story that she had started with another woman who's still at the company, same number of times. They started the same week. Both started as engineers, but the other woman was still an engineer. 30 years later and said, well, why is that case? And we spent a lot of time talking about this.

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:40:08
Vivek Nigam
And in in the traditional world it was that somebody from higher up grabbed her and said, You're coming with me. Let me teach you how to do these things right. So now think about that. She got a lot of attention and and her career blossomed and she grew through the organization. But the other one, her her peer did not get all that and didn't blossom.

00:17:40:08 - 00:17:59:13
Vivek Nigam
So what we want to offer to people who are individual contributors were maybe a little bit on the quieter side. Let us show you how these things are done. Let us give you some tools that let you contribute and be noticed and be heard a little bit more so that your career can also advance the way others do.

00:17:59:15 - 00:18:07:03
Vivek Nigam
You have that that opportunity? That's our goal. That's our mission. We've seen some great success with it and we're hoping to see a lot more.

00:18:07:05 - 00:18:35:14
Wayne Turmel
I love that because I know that went in 25 years of talking to managers. Yeah, the one thing that we feel like we don't do as well as we might, but is the coaching and mentoring piece and the fact that this allows support and encouragement on both ends. So this is really fascinating and it'll be interesting to see how all of this works out.

00:18:35:16 - 00:18:59:14
Wayne Turmel
Vivek, thank you so much as always. Folks, we will have the show notes links if you are intrigued and I can't believe you're not and want to check all of this out, please look at long distance work like Dot com. I am going to boot Vivek out of here just long enough to wrap up the show and say thank you for listening.

00:18:59:14 - 00:19:18:17
Wayne Turmel
You all are podcast veterans. You understand how this works, right? So please like subscribe, tell others about the show. We think we're developing a really great community of people who are interested in the future of the workplace.

00:19:18:18 - 00:19:25:23
Unknown
If you are interested. 4949 30.

00:19:26:01 - 00:19:51:17
Wayne Turmel
Check out Kevin in my new book, The Long Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone's Success. And please, please, please don't be shy. Marissa is doing a wonderful job with the show on Social media, particularly on LinkedIn. We are looking for your questions, topics, people that we should talk to and your pet peeves. Quite frankly, we're having a blast with that.

00:19:51:22 - 00:20:15:17
Wayne Turmel
So you can reach myself or Marissa through email or through LinkedIn. The links are in the show notes. That's it. Thank you so much for joining us. We are really, really excited to bring this show to you. We're excited to bring you very, very smart people like Vivek and our other guests. Thank you for joining us. Talk to you soon.

00:20:15:21 - 00:20:17:12
Wayne Turmel
Don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
05:23 Supporting proactive leaders and helping others improve
07:05 Differentiating between natural intelligence and artificial intelligence
08:17 The belief that humans won't be replaced by AI
08:59 Constraining AI to solve specific problems
09:16 Using AI to find better ways to communicate
09:33 AI enhances interpersonal interactions and is valuable.
09:43 AI can be used to save time and effort.
10:21 AI can make people lazy or rushed for time.
10:44 AI can generate a concise and impressive bio.
11:23 Human thought process and intelligence are critical alongside AI.
12:16 Relying solely on AI can lead to negative outcomes.
13:07 AI takes into account behavioral information and sentiment analysis.
15:04 Sentiment analysis is powerful and can track changes in attitudes.
16:29 AI tools can help individual contributors advance their careers.
18:59 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Is Asynchronous Video Killing the Meeting Star?

Marisa and Wayne discuss pet peeves related to remote meetings. They address the issue of team members not turning on their cameras during meetings and the value of having cameras on. Wayne explains that while there are advantages to being on camera, it's important to consider the context and purpose of the meeting. For larger groups, the value of seeing everyone may be limited, but for smaller teams, having cameras on can enhance engagement and collaboration. They also discuss the responsibility of the audience to pay attention and the importance of being present during meetings.

The conversation then shifts to the topic of recording presentations and sending them out for asynchronous viewing. Wayne suggests that while this can be a useful alternative to meetings, it's important for individuals to take responsibility for engaging with the content and not simply ignore it. They also explore the idea of using asynchronous video as a form of communication, highlighting its potential benefits in terms of richness and accessibility.

Key Takeaways

1. Cameras on during meetings can enhance engagement and collaboration in smaller teams.
2. The responsibility of the audience is to pay attention and actively participate in meetings.
3. Asynchronous video can be a valuable form of communication, providing a richer experience than email or written messages.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:19:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife. Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:19:05 - 00:00:20:21
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marisa. How are you?

00:00:20:22 - 00:00:22:05
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00:00:22:07 - 00:00:27:15
Wayne Turmel
I am well, actually, this is I think this is going to be a fun conversation.

00:00:27:17 - 00:00:55:16
Marisa Eikenberry
It usually is when we talk about pet peeves. But that being said, we had some of you send in pet peeves about meeting specifically. And so we're still continuing to dive into those, including in this episode. So I'm going to start with one that we got from Facebook from Brianne and it says It's been three years since the pandemic and I would have better luck demanding that someone procure me a unicorn before getting every single team member on a call with their camera on.

00:00:55:18 - 00:01:10:22
Marisa Eikenberry
So I know that we've talked several times about if it's a town hall kind of situation. Not everybody needs their cameras on. But what about if it's a team of three or four people and you're wanting engagement? Like, what can we do to get cameras on? Should we be trying to get cameras on?

00:01:11:01 - 00:01:26:21
Wayne Turmel
Oh, man, this quest, it's so funny. Before the pandemic, we push and push And push what? Your camera on. Put your camera and get people to put their camera on. And then they did. During the pandemic, some begrudgingly, some willingly. And we were.

00:01:26:21 - 00:01:27:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Lonely.

00:01:27:07 - 00:01:48:01
Wayne Turmel
It's kind of weird because we're desperate for human companionship, and any pork in the storm is fine. But then it's kind of reverted. And I'm going to say there are two parts to this conversation, right? The first part is, are there advantages to being on camera? The answer is, of course there are.

00:01:48:05 - 00:01:49:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:01:49:02 - 00:02:24:23
Wayne Turmel
Right. And it's funny because most people like seeing the other party. They just don't like being on camera. Right now, it is true that the larger the group, the less value there is in seeing everybody, because we are working from home. It's also possibly true that depending on time zones and what's going on in the place that you live and work, that there may be distractions and things going on that don't work really well.

00:02:25:02 - 00:02:56:16
Wayne Turmel
You know, I just got back from the gym. You know, the kids are running around. It's lunchtime and I've got to eat. Nobody needs to see that. All of those things are the kind of excuses that we get. And you need to stop and say, Why don't I want to be on camera? Some of it is, as you know, if I'm trying to present information and out of the corner of my eye, I see four people all kind of answering emails and visibly checking notes.

00:02:56:21 - 00:03:30:11
Wayne Turmel
Well, there are two sides to that coin. The one coin, the one side is, yeah, it's this whole thing is mostly going to be me talking, and it doesn't add a lot of value because most people are going to be passively listening. So do I need to see that? The other side of that, of course, is if you can't be trusted to pay attention and focus when the camera's on, you, what makes you think I am going to trust that you are paying attention when I can't?

00:03:30:13 - 00:03:49:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. To your point, like I have heard about, I don't agree with this, but I have heard about people who, when it is, you know, a town hall type meeting and maybe it's something where they don't have to have cameras on or whatever. They're posting pictures on LinkedIn of, oh, look at me cooking dinner while I'm listening to this town hall or something like that feels weird to me.

00:03:49:09 - 00:03:52:12
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm sorry. And that might be an unpopular opinion.

00:03:52:14 - 00:04:23:05
Wayne Turmel
Well, it gets back to something we spoke about a week or two ago on this very podcast, which what is your responsibility when you are allowed to work from home? You are being asked to do certain things and certain things are inside your bailiwick. I have a kind of rule that if I wouldn't do it in the conference room with everybody there, why would I do it?

00:04:23:07 - 00:04:24:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00:04:24:07 - 00:04:47:14
Wayne Turmel
When I'm working from home, do I you know, if I'm in the conference room, do I check my phone more than I should? Sure. I do. But I'm also there and I'm, you know, at least paying some attention to the person who's speaking. If you are turning off your camera because you don't want to get busted doing something, why are you doing something you don't want to get busted for?

00:04:47:14 - 00:04:49:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Like, use your head.

00:04:49:12 - 00:05:04:04
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, one quick. Oh, somebody sends a teams message and you respond real quick. Nobody cares. Nobody cares about that. What they care about is if you are very obvious, as, like, not paying any attention.

00:05:04:06 - 00:05:04:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:05:04:20 - 00:05:28:09
Wayne Turmel
So this becomes does the camera need to be on for all of this? Right. Is the question. Well, I think that again, where does it add value? Where it adds value is seeing people reading their body language. So on team meetings, for example. I'm a big fan of everybody has their camera on at the beginning, everybody says hello.

00:05:28:14 - 00:05:52:14
Wayne Turmel
Everybody greets everybody. And then as the meeting goes on, you know, if you need to eat, if you have something going on, right, then there's no need to be on camera because it's stressful being on camera for an hour and worrying about where do I put my hands and oh, look, I'm paying attention, but I need to look like I'm paying.

00:05:52:14 - 00:05:58:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Attention, right? Or like I really am writing notes about whatever this is, but I don't want to look like I'm not paying attention. Yeah.

00:05:58:17 - 00:06:25:03
Wayne Turmel
God forbid. I'm actually looking up and referring to something that we're talking about, right? I mean, you are a machine. When we are on meetings, if we just average the dual screens, everybody needs a Marisa anyway in their life. But, you know, if we're talking about something. And so when was that meeting that we had 30 seconds later up in the chat, Marisa will have the answer to that.

00:06:25:04 - 00:06:31:18
Wayne Turmel
She's quite wonderful about that. But if the camera was on her all the time, you see a lot of her looking off.

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:32:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, yeah.

00:06:32:06 - 00:06:33:00
Wayne Turmel
So I do it.

00:06:33:02 - 00:06:39:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Because, you know, I've got a screen here, but I have a screen here too, which is usually where I've got whatever I'm looking up.

00:06:39:06 - 00:07:02:11
Wayne Turmel
Right. But if I'm paranoid about whether or not whereas is paying attention, that could be sending the wrong message. Mm hmm. Some of this is what is the responsibility of the audience? The responsibility of the audience is to pay attention, to contribute to the work to do. You need to be on camera all the time. No, you don't.

00:07:02:13 - 00:07:12:08
Wayne Turmel
And if you constantly refuse to be on camera, if this becomes a thing at some point, why?

00:07:12:10 - 00:07:13:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:13:08 - 00:07:22:03
Wayne Turmel
Why don't you want to be on camera? Why don't you want to help your teammates connect with you? Well, I don't want to.

00:07:22:05 - 00:07:23:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Is not a good enough reason.

00:07:23:16 - 00:07:25:08
Wayne Turmel
It's not a great reason.

00:07:25:09 - 00:07:28:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Stop being a baby and turn camera on.

00:07:28:12 - 00:07:54:06
Wayne Turmel
Now, again, do you need to do it all the time? No. This should be something that is discussed and agreed. If you are doing a brainstorming meeting where it's really important that people see each other and make sure that we understand what the other person is saying. My rule generally is the bigger the audience, the less important it is that the passive audience members be on camera.

00:07:54:08 - 00:08:10:14
Wayne Turmel
The smaller the group. And this goes back to the richness of the communication, the smaller the group, the more active the discussion, the more we need to collaborate and cooperate, the more I want to see who I'm working with.

00:08:10:16 - 00:08:29:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. Well, and we talked about this off off this recording, but it was this idea of, you know, well, I don't want people looking at me. I don't want my boss to see me, even if it's on a one on one. And it was like, do you walk into a conference room with a bag on your head? Because if you don't, the what are we talking and.

00:08:29:11 - 00:08:42:05
Wayne Turmel
And it also is part of your responsibility as a worker. I mean, the most common thing is, well, I'm not really dressed to be on camera. You knew there was a meeting today. And if you help.

00:08:42:05 - 00:08:45:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Out to one. Okay. But like.

00:08:45:10 - 00:09:03:07
Wayne Turmel
If the boss says, I need to talk to you for a second and you say, well, I'm not really camera ready. And she says, I don't care. I just need to talk to you for 2 seconds. That's a different conversation. But if, you know, there is a meeting at 10:00 in the morning and you're still in your pajamas.

00:09:03:12 - 00:09:06:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Get a pajamas, you're going to be done.

00:09:06:08 - 00:09:08:01
Wayne Turmel
I'm going to get judgy.

00:09:08:03 - 00:09:09:10
Marisa Eikenberry
But do it.

00:09:09:12 - 00:09:29:22
Wayne Turmel
Particularly if there are people in the office who have had to shower and dress and commute and do all the rest of that stuff. And again, you only need to be dressed from the belly button up. How lazy are you that you can't put on a shirt with buttons when you know there's a meeting?

00:09:30:00 - 00:09:51:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and in the interest of time, I'm going to pivot a little bit to our next question, but it's related to what we're talking about. So Mike McBride from LinkedIn says, you know, it's not necessary to have a screen full of people who are clearly reading and responding to email while others are presenting information. Just record the presentation and ask for written feedback so we can all go back to working.

00:09:51:19 - 00:09:57:04
Marisa Eikenberry
So yeah, I mean, we've talked about this secret as before. Yeah. This actually video.

00:09:57:06 - 00:10:22:00
Wayne Turmel
When you told me that this question was coming, I actually got jazzed because it's a conversation that we haven't had on this podcast and is worthy of discussion. Mm hmm. So I'm going to kind of take this in a couple of parts. You know, a bunch of people are paying attention. The message obviously isn't that riveting. They're probably making announcement of some kind.

00:10:22:02 - 00:10:25:02
Wayne Turmel
Does that need to be a meeting, period?

00:10:25:04 - 00:10:26:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And that's a good question.

00:10:27:04 - 00:10:33:23
Wayne Turmel
And these are the same people, though, who say things like, I just survived another meeting. That could have been an email.

00:10:34:01 - 00:10:34:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:10:34:16 - 00:10:50:17
Wayne Turmel
And when we talk to the managers and say everybody says this could have been an email, why did you hold a meeting? And their answer, in all seriousness and with tears in their eyes, is because nobody reads the damn email.

00:10:50:19 - 00:11:14:18
Marisa Eikenberry
I was on a meeting once, thankfully not for this company, but I was on a meeting once where they set a Google document that they wanted everybody to read, and because they could not confirm that people were going to read the document, they had a meeting where they literally verbatim read the document. Now, granted, I want to take forks and poke my eyes out, but I understood why they did that.

00:11:14:20 - 00:11:47:06
Wayne Turmel
Right. So, again, do we need a meeting to make this particular announcement? Possibly not. But what was really interesting at the end of Mike's comment is, can you just record it, send it, and ask everybody to acknowledge that they've seen it? Well, we know that that's no guarantee that anybody has actually read or understood. And it does, though, raise the specter of we're really big on asynchronous communication.

00:11:47:08 - 00:12:00:17
Wayne Turmel
Right. Send chat messages. People don't need to respond to written things right away. You can communicate this. We can contribute to meetings. You can do things. What we haven't talked about is asynchronous video.

00:12:00:20 - 00:12:03:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Which has been such a big topic lately.

00:12:03:08 - 00:12:26:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, it's funny. It's a big topic now. I remember ten years ago people telling me that video email was going to be the wave of the future that you would push a button and the camera would come on and you could say, Hey, Marisa, I need you to do this, this and this today. You know, if you have any questions, give me a call.

00:12:26:22 - 00:12:53:02
Wayne Turmel
Click set. And it was clunky and it was huge and it never really caught on because it's time consuming, right, to do that kind of stuff. But now that we work in a hybrid world, now that the bandwidth and things aren't nearly the problem that they used to be, and the fact that everybody has cameras on their phone and you don't need a great setup to do that.

00:12:53:04 - 00:13:23:14
Wayne Turmel
Is there value in making a richer form of communication than another email? I know one organization where every morning the manager records a12 minute video. Hey, good morning. I'm out of the office today. Here's what you need to know. If you need to get to know me. You can reach me here. And by the way, don't forget, we have a meeting on Friday, and I need everybody to read that thing.

00:13:23:17 - 00:13:24:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay, Fair.

00:13:24:14 - 00:13:51:21
Wayne Turmel
And it's very short, but she sends that out every morning. And, yeah, you can do read receipts and you can see if it's been clicked on. You can see who read it, and you can do all of that, you know, semi fascist documentation stuff. But if you develop a rhythm and if people demonstrate that they do in fact treat these messages seriously and do take the required action.

00:13:51:23 - 00:13:52:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:13:52:21 - 00:13:59:11
Wayne Turmel
It's not a bad idea. It's something to think about. Slack, for example, could not be easier.

00:13:59:13 - 00:14:10:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. They even add captions to the video or transcripts To the video. I don't remember when they did that, but like, there's another accessibility point that isn't there in a regular meeting usually.

00:14:10:09 - 00:14:40:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, I'm not walking around with subtitles of clearing, of course, on my shirt, although Lord knows, I probably should. So we have these forms of communication. People are becoming more and more comfortable. Certainly generationally, people face time and do all kinds of things video wise. Tik Tok. So it's actually asynchronous video is something worth exploring, you know, even if it's a monday morning.

00:14:40:16 - 00:15:09:14
Wayne Turmel
Hi, it's Monday. Here we go, team. How are you? Right. Or if you want to send a quick message to your boss. Right. Hey, I've got a question. Can we do this? You know, it's just. But it needs to be short and it needs to be easily accessed, which means it needs to be a link in teams or Slack, something that no matter what their device on, they can click it and watch it.

00:15:09:16 - 00:15:13:19
Wayne Turmel
The more hassle it is, the less valuable it's going to be.

00:15:13:21 - 00:15:30:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, I was going to add on to this, too, because, I mean, you know, we were talking about video and this idea of like some people, like I don't want to be on camera or whatever, which we've already set our pieces on that. But I do know that some of these platforms also allow audio clips, too. So maybe whatever you're talking about, you don't need it to be a video.

00:15:30:21 - 00:15:43:07
Marisa Eikenberry
To your point, you know, Hey, I got a real quick thing for my boss, but it's way easier to explain it than it is to type it out here. I'll just send an audio clip really quick and then you don't even have to mess with the video part at all if you didn't want to.

00:15:43:10 - 00:16:08:02
Wayne Turmel
The problem with that, of course, is that we have an entire generation of these darn kids with their rock and roll and their Foo Fighters who don't listen to voice mail, which again, there is no excuse for that. It is a tool. It is an expectation of the job you don't like. It is not a legitimate excuse.

00:16:08:04 - 00:16:16:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay. But as the one of the kids with the rock and roll, if I'm not listening to voice mail, wouldn't I also not turn on a video too?

00:16:16:19 - 00:16:26:16
Wayne Turmel
Which is where Mike's point about accountable and he comes in. Right. If you don't want meetings that don't have to be meetings.

00:16:26:18 - 00:16:27:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:16:27:13 - 00:16:42:04
Wayne Turmel
If you say I'm not an idiot, just tell me what you want and I'll do it. Then you'd better do it. Because if you don't, we are going back to entire meetings where I read the memo to everybody.

00:16:42:06 - 00:17:05:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and I can't help but come back to this idea, too. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a here. I'll watch the video on my own time or listen to the audio clip in my own time. Like, I get all that. But regardless, the time is spent. Either way, if it's a 20 minute meeting or a 20 minute video that you watch asynchronously later, it's still 20 minutes that you have now spent.

00:17:05:07 - 00:17:26:17
Marisa Eikenberry
So it's like, is it better if it's already scheduled and you're, quote unquote, forced to do it rather than, okay, yeah, I'm going to try to make time in my schedule to watch this 20 minute video at some point, which I think sometimes might also be why some of these videos and audios and things like that don't get watched or listened to.

00:17:26:19 - 00:17:53:10
Wayne Turmel
They don't watch videos, but they don't read the email and they don't pay attention in the meeting. I mean, if you are blithely ignoring communication that's on you at some point, that's a performance management issue, right? If your boss is sending emails of your teammates or sending out emails and you start every meeting with, I didn't see that right.

00:17:53:14 - 00:17:55:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, how do you expect your job to.

00:17:55:19 - 00:18:04:11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, that's a performance management issue. At that point you are not taking your responsibility. The rest of the world can only do so much.

00:18:04:17 - 00:18:06:23
Marisa Eikenberry
We can give you all the tools.

00:18:07:01 - 00:18:21:04
Wayne Turmel
We have all the tools at our disposal. There is no excuse for not getting a message anymore except time and attention. And that is on you. And that's end of the lesson.

00:18:21:06 - 00:18:25:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, we could wax poetic about this for ever, but.

00:18:25:20 - 00:18:27:21
Wayne Turmel
Whatever it is that we're waxing.

00:18:27:23 - 00:18:47:01
Marisa Eikenberry
You know. Yes. So, anyway, I do want to thank Brianne and Mike for sending in their pet peeves for meetings. And we have a few more that we're going to go into. And I'm so excited to get to those as well. But, Wayne, thank you so much for talking to us about these two very important topics and listeners.

00:18:47:01 - 00:19:02:14
Marisa Eikenberry
I hope that you got a ton out of it and thank you for listening to the long distance work life for shownotes transcripts and other resources. Make sure to visit us at long distance work life dot com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review.

00:19:02:16 - 00:19:14:16
Marisa Eikenberry
This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our shownotes. And let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic or pet peeve for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00:19:14:16 - 00:19:28:13
Wayne Turmel
And if you haven't figured it out by now, Marisa actually pays really close attention to that stuff. We are digging what we're hearing from you. So questions, pet peeves, vicious personal attacks. Bring it.

00:19:28:15 - 00:19:45:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Follow me on all the social media. I yes, I will bring you all the stuff you like to learn more about Remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long Distance Team. You can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team Book Dotcom. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:19 Discussion about getting team members to turn on their cameras
02:25 Advantages and disadvantages of having cameras on during meetings
03:30 Importance of trust and attention during meetings
04:23 Responsibility of remote workers during meetings
05:28 Value of seeing body language and greetings at the beginning of meetings
06:25 Challenges of being on camera for long periods of time
07:02 Importance of active discussion and collaboration in smaller groups
07:25 Addressing concerns about appearance and being seen by others
08:45 Responsibility of workers to be prepared for meetings
09:03 Dressing appropriately for video meetings
09:30 Importance of considering if a meeting is necessary
09:51 Recording presentations and asking for written feedback
10:22Exploring asynchronous communication and video
12:00 The value of asynchronous video communication
13:23Using short daily videos for communication
14:10 Accessibility benefits of video transcripts
15:09 Exploring audio clips as an alternative to video
16:42 Accountability and the need for meetings
17:05 Considering the time spent on meetings and videos
17:26 Ignoring communication is a performance management issue.
18:07 No excuse for not getting a message anymore.
18:47 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

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Guests, Hybrid Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Benefits of Co-Working in Remote and Hybrid Workplaces with Taylor Harrington

Taylor Harrington, Head of Community at Groove, joins Wayne Turmel to discuss the concept of co-working and how it can be applied in both physical and online spaces. They explore the benefits of co-working, such as accountability, social connection, and the opportunity to meet new people. Taylor explains how Groove facilitates online co-working sessions, matching individuals with similar interests and goals. She emphasizes the importance of transparency and vulnerability in building meaningful connections. Taylor also highlights the value of physical co-working spaces in providing a change of environment and fostering community.

Key Takeaways

1. Co-working provides accountability, social connection, and a sense of community for remote workers.
2. Groove offers online co-working sessions, matching individuals with similar interests and goals.
3. Transparency and vulnerability are essential in building meaningful connections.
4. Physical co-working spaces provide a change of environment and opportunities for community building.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:36:11
Speaker 1
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Long-Distance Worklife. This is the show where we try to make sense of remote hybrid working wherever the heck you are, and in trying to make sense of it and helping us not just get through it, but to really thrive under those circumstances. My name is Wayne Turmel. I am a master trainer here at Kevin Eikenberry Group.

00:00:36:13 - 00:01:01:14
Speaker 1
If you are a regular to this show, you know that we do two types of shows. We do episodes with myself and my co-host and producer, Marisa. This is not one of those. This gives me a chance to talk to really cool people about things that are happening that you might not know about. And that's certainly the case today, is something I don't know a lot about.

00:01:01:15 - 00:01:26:08
Speaker 1
And we're talking about co-working. Not that I don't have coworkers, but the idea of co-working as third locations or alternatives to being in the office. And in order to do that, this is me bringing in Taylor Harrington. Hi, Taylor. Who the heck are you? And what the heck does Groove do That brings us to this topic.

00:01:26:10 - 00:01:50:00
Speaker 2
Amazing. Thanks so much, Wayne, for having me and for Marisa recommending that I. Come on. I'm so excited to talk about co-working. I love this topic. Clearly, I have had a co-working journey myself, having had experiences being in offices and then moving remotely and trying to find that awkward space in between and what that means. Back in college, I was in an incredible co-working space that I'm sure we will talk about more.

00:01:50:01 - 00:02:15:11
Speaker 2
And so when I heard what Groove was building, which was really this idea of taking the best parts about a physical co-working space and bringing it online so that people from all over the world could be a part of it and could co work together. I was so excited. So we do 50 minute co-working sessions in the Groove app where folks get matched up in small groups with people like them, whether it's friends or people who are relevant doing similar things.

00:02:15:13 - 00:02:39:06
Speaker 2
It's mostly people who don't have teams and just want good vibes and high fives, as we like to say, from people who understand that they're on these maybe career paths. So me as a whole, I'm living in New York City. I love hosting gatherings. I'm a party host. I love creating this feeling of what I call the opposite of loneliness, which there's not really a good word for.

00:02:39:06 - 00:02:52:23
Speaker 2
So my my life mission is to help people feel the opposite of loneliness. And I do that through gatherings online in person. And you can usually find me wandering into tiny coffee shops or bookstores.

00:02:53:01 - 00:03:23:11
Speaker 1
All right. So using very small words, because I struggle with this, I will tell you the truth, when we talk about co-working, obviously our frame of reference is the office You work in the office, people are sitting at desks next to you. There are conversations sometimes these are wonderful, enlightening social activities and very productive work things, and sometimes they are what drives us to work remotely.

00:03:23:14 - 00:03:39:03
Speaker 1
But when you talk about co-working in an app, help me out here. What does that look like and why in heaven's name, if I'm just, you know, how is this different than being on a teams meeting which is already killing us?

00:03:39:05 - 00:04:05:13
Speaker 2
Yes, I hear that. So, like I said, a lot of people that are on Groove don't have teams, so we know how good it can feel to have those coworkers and camaraderie of doing things together. And even just the accountability or the goal setting that happens with coworkers. When you say, okay, this is what we need to get done this week, and having those regular scheduled meetings or goal planning sessions, whatever that looks like inside of group, the folks that are attracted to it are people that don't have that type of structure in their day.

00:04:05:14 - 00:04:25:20
Speaker 2
So there are people who are designing their days as, let's say, a freelancer and they're wondering, okay, what time do I really need to start working? Because they've created a flexible schedule where they work for themselves. So a typical groover might hop onto the app on their phone and click start a groove, right as they've got their coffee in hand, opening up their laptop for the first time.

00:04:25:20 - 00:04:42:09
Speaker 2
And it's really that push to get into the zone to do the thing. So they might hop into one session. Like I said, it's 50 minutes. They'll be joined by three other people and get to it. And so immediately they've got this burst of social connection that there are other people around them, which is typically quite a lonely day.

00:04:42:09 - 00:05:01:11
Speaker 2
If they're by themselves as a freelancer, they might work with clients and work with other people who help them out on specific projects, but they don't have that camaraderie of going into the office or those Zoom meetings that you might have on working on a on a remote team. So that's typically the target user of something like Groove.

00:05:01:11 - 00:05:24:06
Speaker 2
There are a lot of other apps or platforms out there that are made for remote co-working, for folks that are remote coworkers. So you might hop on with your full team and it's more like a focus session where you're coming to get stuff done in a series of a certain sprint. So it's like, okay, let's get together four of our coworkers and hit the button and all co work together.

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:53:23
Speaker 2
That's a little bit different because you're not there for the discovery of meeting other people, whereas on Groove, a lot of folks are there to meet other people. They're there to find who these, as a griever calls them, chosen coworkers are because they don't have those coworkers. So there's a discovery part to it, there's a friend's part to it, inviting people that maybe you met at a conference last year and you thought they were really cool, but you didn't really know A meaningful, meaningful way to connect with them regularly and grouping together allows you to do that.

00:05:54:01 - 00:05:59:16
Speaker 1
Okay, so there are several things that you've said here that give me great angst.

00:05:59:19 - 00:06:00:12
Speaker 2
That sometimes.

00:06:00:12 - 00:06:11:10
Speaker 1
I don't think they're desirable just because I can't, for the life of me, imagine doing it. Know when you're five and you see somebody on the playground that you've never seen and you go, Oh.

00:06:11:10 - 00:06:11:22
Speaker 2
I want to.

00:06:11:22 - 00:06:40:06
Speaker 1
Be friends, okay? And off you go. As you become an adult, that becomes harder and harder to do. Right? So I guess, you know, the idea of, hey, there's a bunch of us and we all run our own little one man shops and it would be kind of cool to hang. I get that part. Talk to me about just involving complete strangers in this craziness, that process is just so foreign to my being.

00:06:40:08 - 00:06:58:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, so it's funny because it's grown over the last two years, you know, And we started our community was super tiny and it was mostly friends of the team that were doing this. And then I remember when our first groover came from the wild on Google and was like, I found you and I want to start co-working on Groove.

00:06:58:00 - 00:07:18:16
Speaker 2
And we were like, Oh my gosh, someone found us. And so obviously that's happened again and again now. And I think that that stranger danger is something that people bring up a lot when they're brand new to groove and when they're hearing about it. However, a lot of the people that join Groove and really love it have had some sort of an online experience where they are meeting strangers.

00:07:18:16 - 00:07:37:17
Speaker 2
So that's one thing that tends to be a commonality, whether it's they are someone who have done online workshops, so they've taken some sort of an online class where they were paired up with people in a Zoom room and they know what that experience is like, or they've done some sort of other focus app. Like I've mentioned before, or some sort of co-working.

00:07:37:17 - 00:08:01:21
Speaker 2
Even if it was a friend that started a Zoom Room or a mastermind and they were in a room co-working together for a certain amount of hours. So a lot of people have those experiences with within that. I think that one of the best parts about Groove is that people have really cool, transparent, wacky bios. So if you go on groove and you click on someone's bio before you happen to agree with them, you get to understand a little bit about who that human is.

00:08:01:23 - 00:08:23:19
Speaker 2
I like to say they're very anti LinkedIn. It's not like, Hi, I'm Taylor and I run this company. It's like people saying, Hey, I have a green thumb in a garden I can't stop paying attention to or I love to roller skate in my free time, or I've got three kiddos running around and my dog's name is Pudding and like, you just learn these funny things about people through these bios.

00:08:23:19 - 00:08:37:00
Speaker 2
So that starts to eliminate that, that scared nature of it. When you've started to create a culture of this is how we show up here and people showing up with that vulnerability and that transparency about who they are as full humans, not just what they do for work.

00:08:37:02 - 00:08:58:07
Speaker 1
Great. And we will have links to Groove and all of that stuff and you can check it out for yourself if you're so inclined. We will have those on. Oh dear. On the website. Long distance work like Dot. We will be doing that. So we will have that for you. What are some of the acts you mentioned a couple of things.

00:08:58:07 - 00:09:13:03
Speaker 1
You mentioned sprints and what are some of the activities that if I knew to coworking, what are a couple of the things maybe that you can do to kind of get started and get a get comfortable with that?

00:09:13:06 - 00:09:38:02
Speaker 2
Yes. So I think that one of the basic things is just the accountability in public. So even as simple as starting to say, okay, maybe you follow some really cool people on social media. So whether it's your Instagram stories or your Twitter account or threads or whatever you're on these days, if you want to start sharing publicly, hey, these are some things on my to do with that I'm getting done today and then celebrating any wins from the week publicly.

00:09:38:04 - 00:10:01:12
Speaker 2
I think that starts to help you feel that that shared social connection of putting it out there, Hey, this is what I want to get done today. People responding, reacting to it. And then at the end of the day or the end of the week, closing that loop with these are some of the things that I did this week or celebrating it so that I would say it's like a very easy way to ease into it without having to get on a camera, but starting to feel the benefits of it.

00:10:01:14 - 00:10:30:11
Speaker 2
If you do want to start doing it with someone else, I would say that the easiest way is to just do it with a friend. I even recommend two groupers that are brand new to group. Hey, if you are not interested in meeting someone new for the first time, use that little invite link and just hop into a private group with a friend so that you can experience it together because it is quite easy to get the hang of so I think that there are other platforms like that where if you are interested in this or if you want to do it with a coworker, for example, and you're like, Hey, this thing sounds interesting.

00:10:30:11 - 00:10:58:04
Speaker 2
Coworking online. There are a bunch out there where you can do it with someone that you already know. And then as you get used to just the process of it, it makes it way easier to do it with more people that you haven't met yet or have some sort of a commonality with it. But I think that that commonality and making that that transparent is one thing that I'm really looking forward to doubling down on with Groove, whether it's the fact that we both hop into a groove and I can now see that you're a podcaster and it's like right in my face, like, Hey, this person's a podcaster.

00:10:58:06 - 00:11:19:16
Speaker 2
It just breaks the ice. I think about relationships, kind of like peeling back an onion where if we had this onion of trying to get to the core of why we should connect is to humans. It's hard to do that when you have no context on that person. So if I met you on the side of the street and we were both walking in different directions and I said, Hey, I'm Taylor, you would be like, Why is a stranger talking to me?

00:11:19:21 - 00:11:37:19
Speaker 2
Versus if I was walking and I had a tote bag that had one of your favorite podcasts on it, you might say, Hey, I also listen to that show. What's your favorite episode? And we suddenly are layered deeper into that onion. And so you can take that even further and say, What if we're both standing in an elevator going to our friend's birthday party?

00:11:37:19 - 00:11:53:00
Speaker 2
And so now it's like, not only do I have that tote bag, but we both know we're going to the same place. And so you keep peeling back that onion. And I think that there's a lot of opportunity in connection in this space of remote work where we can be more transparent about helping people get through those layers.

00:11:53:03 - 00:12:08:16
Speaker 2
They can connect on something more meaningful, quicker. So that's something I'm keeping top of mind as we build group. But I'm sure that other other spaces are like that too. Even teams that are working remotely wondering how they can peel back the layers for coworkers to connect over meaningful topics.

00:12:08:18 - 00:12:51:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, one of the things and again, you know, when you know this, when you're writing or you're creating a podcast, you kind of have an avatar of who that person is, right? Yeah. But there are people who don't fit that. And in the remote workspace, this is particularly true. I mean, we think about people in companies that are working apart from each other, but there are a ton probably listening to this solopreneur or people who are loosely affiliated with others and need that social interaction and they're just not being alone with your own brain, which if you're like me, is something nobody wants for any length of time.

00:12:52:00 - 00:13:25:04
Speaker 1
You said something really early on in this conversation that I did pay attention to, and that is that you were a fan of traditional co-working spaces. And I will be honest, when we talk about remote work, most people or a lot of people at least think it's binary. You're in the office or you're working from home, but there's places and of course, anybody who saw the series on We Space, you know, is running away with their fingers crossed, you know, with nightmares.

00:13:25:06 - 00:13:42:16
Speaker 1
But these things exist and they exist for a reason. Talk to me a little bit about the advantage of working in a shared workspace with complete strangers and how you maximize that.

00:13:42:18 - 00:14:00:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, first off, I'll just say that sometimes getting out of the house is just a healthy thing to begin with. To have a commute to work, even if it's 10 minutes that you're walking. I live in New York City, so I could walk in any direction and be at a physical co-working space within 10 minutes. And so I think that that's that's part of it.

00:14:00:04 - 00:14:21:14
Speaker 2
I think that there are many different kinds of co-working spaces physically, and a lot of them oftentimes, people say, are quite cold. They're not really social co-working as a term. Sounds quite social. You're co-working next to people and yet you get to this big office space and you're next to someone on their laptop with their headphones in and no one's talking to you.

00:14:21:14 - 00:14:26:18
Speaker 2
And so I think there are lots of spaces like that. And in order.

00:14:26:18 - 00:14:47:01
Speaker 1
To get that's kind of been my limited experience with this is, Oh good, So you know, I can stay at home and put my earphones in and, and work or I can go somewhere else with unfamiliar physical surroundings and put my earphones in and work. I'm failing to see the benefit here.

00:14:47:06 - 00:15:20:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think that there are other ones that I find are more curated. They're often more expensive too, that are focused on community and helping you get to know other people in that space. So back when I was in college, I had the privilege of being able to go to one of those. I went to Penn State, which is in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania State College, and I went to this space called the New Initiative, and it was all focused on local entrepreneurs, which automatically, once it's a curated space for a specific kind of person, it just attracts a certain level of connection.

00:15:20:01 - 00:15:44:08
Speaker 2
But the community events that happened in that space were so well done where they brought in guest speakers. They even had salad bowl Fridays where they had folks bring in different ingredients for their salad bowl. So you could bring in carrots, you bring in lettuce, you bring in dressing and co-create a salad together. So there were just like all different things that this space did that fostered connection and foster real conversations.

00:15:44:10 - 00:16:00:22
Speaker 2
I attended an event where we had to figure out how to explain our ground truth, who we are at our core, and those types of things really allow people to open up so that when you hop into the coworking space the next day, you're not sitting next to strangers. You're having a conversation with someone who you know something meaningful about.

00:16:01:00 - 00:16:20:12
Speaker 2
So I do think that's a rare experience in the physical coworking world. But I do know there are a lot of spaces in Brooklyn, for example, that are tinier and have that. So it exists. It's just harder to find. And I think that the more narrow the spaces about who it's for, the better it can deliver on that community experience.

00:16:20:14 - 00:16:30:17
Speaker 1
And we have a number of digital nomads who listen to this. And the nice thing is that there are these places literally everywhere.

00:16:30:17 - 00:16:47:22
Speaker 2
Yes, yes. And I think that even digital nomads have such incredible resources out there. I know so many nomads from from group that have traveled to all these different places and they keep in touch with those people as they go to the next place, even if that person isn't there, because it's such a connected web of, Oh, you're going to be in Portugal.

00:16:47:22 - 00:17:08:20
Speaker 2
Let me tell you about this cool digital man I met last year, who's in Portugal right now. So I do think that even setting up in a coffee shop with a small group of people is another alternative to co work with people and make that experience special. It doesn't have to be something that you pay for. You know, you're enjoying a cup of coffee and a piece of coffee cake and you're hanging out with some good people as you get stuff done.

00:17:08:20 - 00:17:29:23
Speaker 2
And maybe even bringing a specific project, like a writing project that might take a couple of hours. So that's another alternative to do some co-working in-person. Just get out of your physical space, because I do think that that is is really healthy. And just having that connection. I mean, there's so much great research out there about how human connection throughout the day can really change your mood, but also that other person's mood.

00:17:30:01 - 00:17:54:21
Speaker 1
That's terrific. Lots to think about. Taylor, thank you so much. I'm going to wrap up the show now, but thank you. And we will have links to Groove and Taylor's LinkedIn page and all of that good stuff on the long distance work life dot com page. In the meantime, thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed the conversation.

00:17:55:01 - 00:18:27:20
Speaker 1
We try to judge it up a little bit and change topics constantly. And this was something that honestly I don't know a lot about being the anti social curmudgeon that I tend to be, but I will not be an anti social curmudgeon next episode because Marissa will be back. And if you have questions, show ideas, topics you want discussed, especially pet peeves, Marissa is constantly collecting pet peeves about remote work and and flexible and hybrid work.

00:18:27:22 - 00:18:54:21
Speaker 1
Drop us a line. Our emails are Wayne at Kevin Eikenberry icon Marissa Kevin Eikenberry dot com. LinkedIn or the show's LinkedIn page is a great way to find us. And of course if you are thinking about how should we be working and maybe rethinking how your team functions, check out my Kevin Eikenberry's new book, Long-Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone's Success.

00:18:54:21 - 00:19:17:13
Speaker 1
You can learn more about that at Long distance team book. Dot com If you listen to podcasts, this is the obligatory please like and subscribe. That's how people find us and we hope that you are telling your friends about us. So there you go. That's it. My name is Wayne Turmel. Thank you so much for being with us.

00:19:17:14 - 00:19:24:14
Speaker 1
Come back next week for another fun and interesting episode and don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to the show and topic of co-working
01:26 Groove app provides online co-working sessions for freelancers
03:23 Difference between co-working on Groove and team-focused platforms
05:01 Groove attracts users who don't have coworkers and want connection
06:40 Overcoming the initial discomfort of co-working with strangers
08:58 Exploring activities and sprints to get started with co-working
09:38 Benefits of using a platform like Groove for remote work
10:01 Ease into remote work by sharing goals and achievements online
10:30 Start using Groove with a friend or coworker
11:19 Importance of commonality and transparency in remote work connections
12:08 The challenge of connecting with coworkers in remote teams
13:42 The advantage of working in a curated co-working space
14:47 The struggle of finding meaningful connections in physical co-working spaces
16:30 The availability of co-working spaces for digital nomads
17:08 Alternatives to physical co-working spaces, like coffee shops
18:27 Ways to connect and provide feedback to the podcast hosts

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Taylor Harrington, Head of Community at Groove

Name: Taylor Harrington

What She Does: Head of Community at Groove

About: Taylor Harrington is the Head of Community at Groove, an app that brings the concept of co-working online. She is passionate about creating connections and helping people feel a sense of community, both online and in-person. Taylor has experience in physical co-working spaces and understands the value they bring to remote workers.

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Hybrid Work, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Technology

How Tectonic Forces Are Reshaping the Future of Work with Phil Simon

Wayne Turmel interviews Phil Simon about the trends that are reshaping the workplace, particularly in the context of remote and hybrid work. They discuss the dispersed workplace, employee empowerment, and the need for new metrics to measure productivity. Phil emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the shift towards remote work and the need for organizations to adapt to this new reality. He also highlights the role of employee engagement and the changing contract between employers and employees.

Key Takeaways

1. The dispersed workplace is here to stay, and organizations need to embrace the opportunities it presents.
2. Employee empowerment is crucial for attracting and retaining talent in a remote and hybrid work environment.
3. Traditional metrics for measuring productivity may not be effective in a remote work setting.
4. Companies should create a work environment that employees want to engage with, rather than forcing them to come to the office.
5. The contract between employers and employees is changing, and organizations need to adapt to the new expectations of workers.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:09 - 00:00:35:11
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the long distance worklife the podcast where we try to help people thrive and survive in the crazy changing, never quite the same world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. I'm with Kevin Eikenberry Group. This is a Marisa-less episode today. She will be with us next week. But I am really lucky.

00:00:35:13 - 00:01:02:06
Wayne Turmel
I get to talk to really smart people on this show. And one of them is my longtime friend and colleague, Phil Simon. And we are going to take a very high level look at some trends that are going to dictate whether exactly or generally where especially remote and hybrid work is going. And there's nobody that I would rather have this conversation with.

00:01:02:06 - 00:01:16:01
Wayne Turmel
So, Phil Simon, real quick, buddy, introduce yourself and then we're going to get down to the nine. The tectonic forces reshape in the workplace.

00:01:16:02 - 00:01:26:01
Phil Simon
Anyway, thanks for having me on. And let me just say that of all my podcasts, I think this is the first one in which the word chrysalis has been used well.

00:01:26:03 - 00:01:43:11
Wayne Turmel
And I think people tolerate me and like her is kind of out this year. So they tune in for Marissa and then they tune in for the people I talk to, and I am the necessary right way to that happening.

00:01:43:13 - 00:01:57:12
Phil Simon
I set the bar low. But anyway, thanks for having me on. My name's Phil Simon. I've written a bunch of books. The last four have been about the future of work and I write and speak and consult companies about how to navigate the chaos.

00:01:57:14 - 00:02:22:14
Wayne Turmel
And this book in particular, I like it. And you say, right on the cover of the book, this is not a tactical book. If you're looking for, you know, do this, don't do this, probably not the thing. But if like me, you spend a lot of time trying to figure out where is this going and what's impacting it and how the hell did that happen, I think this is an excellent book.

00:02:22:14 - 00:02:51:04
Wayne Turmel
And you outlined nine things that you think are kind of driving the workplace. And some of them are things like blockchain and generative A.I. and immersive technologies. But I want to focus on a few that are specific to this show and the people who listen. And I think I want to start with the dispersed workplace and what that really means.

00:02:51:04 - 00:03:13:17
Wayne Turmel
I know in the book you kind of said, look, the battles over people are working remotely, get over it. But what does that actually mean to organizations that are have been functioning in the before times and are trying to function now? What what what's the big aha. There?

00:03:13:19 - 00:03:36:09
Phil Simon
Well, I don't know if there's a single big aha moment, but as I write in chapter ten of the book, basically distilling some of the lessons from the nine into a number of strategies, pretending that COVID didn't happen and that people are going to gleefully return to the office five days a week is insane. And you could look at that as a negative because sometimes it can be difficult to do certain things remotely.

00:03:36:09 - 00:04:03:03
Phil Simon
You and I both know that if you're going to write all day, I don't need to be in office to do that right. If I'm going to code, if I'm going to do graphic design, But if I'm doing anything collaborative, you can do things sharing screens and design with Figment and those sorts of things. But, you know, for a collaborative session to receive a performance review, to brainstorm, to get to know your colleagues, you want to do that in person.

00:04:03:05 - 00:04:25:09
Phil Simon
So one of the consequences of that way in, as you know, is that if you only have employees coming in on a hybrid basis, that A, you may not need an entire office to yourself. So you might just want part of an office and B, you can actually hire from a larger talent pool if you're in San Francisco and you say, no, all of our coders have to be local.

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:45:05
Phil Simon
Well, good luck with that, because there are any number of tech companies, and as I write in the book, the head of machine learning at Apple, I think it was in March of last year, didn't take too kindly to Tim Cook's mandate that everyone return, at least on a hybrid basis. So he promptly quit. And I think by the end of the day, Google hired him.

00:04:45:07 - 00:05:06:01
Phil Simon
So that's a challenge. But if you look at it as an opportunity, well, now we aren't restricted to San Francisco, so it might be cheaper for us to pay someone who lives in Iowa a salary commensurate with other people in Des Moines and fly that person out once a month and still come out ahead, particularly if you then factor in lower real estate costs, even though the market has a bounce back yet.

00:05:06:01 - 00:05:25:18
Phil Simon
So all of these forces are related. But the most direct answer to your question, Wayne, is that it is silly to pretend that this hasn't happened. If COVID had been two or three weeks, it's a snow day. It's been two or three years of working remotely. The data is in. We have been productive. No, you don't want to hire people who will never come into the office.

00:05:25:20 - 00:05:37:04
Phil Simon
But if you think that you're going to find capable people who long term say, sure, sign me up for an hour or half commute each way, like it's 2018, ain't going to happen.

00:05:37:06 - 00:06:12:03
Wayne Turmel
What do you think this means to the individual worker? I mean, part of what the office provided, I think about new new hires and interns and people just out of school who are learning what it means to go to work right. What do you think this means organizations are going to have to do to help people prepare to work here, here being whatever that company is?

00:06:12:05 - 00:06:31:07
Phil Simon
Lots of things. First, and I think you recently wrote a post about this, about proximity bias that's alive and well. I mean, they've done studies controlling for performance. People who go into the office tend to be promoted and just thought of as harder working than people who are remote. Even though that may not be true. That's a legitimate concern.

00:06:31:07 - 00:06:49:08
Phil Simon
And I don't see it going away soon because it just taps into psychological biases. You could be cranking away at home. I don't see it out of sight, out of mind. But you're in the office till six and you take a couple smoke breaks and a two hour lunch. And boy, Wayne's a really good worker, but I think it's imperative for companies to find people who are willing to come to the office.

00:06:49:08 - 00:07:05:03
Phil Simon
I'm not saying that you have to be there a certain number of days per week because you can argue that that's arbitrary. But I think it's equally insane for companies to say you have to be in the office to work as it is for employees, say, I'm never coming to the office. So to me, that's an interview question, right?

00:07:05:03 - 00:07:26:01
Phil Simon
And then test people, you know, if they're not willing to come in, maybe it's time to cut the cord with them, because I agree with you, there is something to be said for that. And if I were 30 years younger, I would schlep into an office even when I didn't have to, to build that social currency, to establish reactions to relationships with folks, to collide with folks.

00:07:26:01 - 00:07:47:20
Phil Simon
Right. To have that random conversation about the bear in the hallway. And now, Oh, yeah, when you see the bear last night, I believe strongly love to get your thoughts on it, that those types of social ties matter. And if my manager likes me and my colleagues treat me well, maybe I'm less likely to leave for a 5% raise without having to move because I can now work anywhere.

00:07:47:22 - 00:08:21:09
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think that that's true. I also you know, I was talking to somebody about people returning to the office and she was bemoaning the fact that her people have basically gone feral and they don't know how to you know, they don't know how to act in an office setting anymore. And I think for young workers who've never had that experience, and if we're going to hire people from different backgrounds and people whose daddy didn't work at IBM, right.

00:08:21:11 - 00:08:47:04
Wayne Turmel
So it's kind of certain behaviors and certain tacit knowledge has been passed on. We have to create what it's like to work here and we have to teach people boundaries. And I know that it can be done with less physical proximity. But I think depending on where you are in your career, the demand for flexibility is going to be different.

00:08:47:06 - 00:09:12:22
Phil Simon
Oh, 100%. I mean, you could argue that the pandemic was ultimately a net positive for working mothers because to work from home and to not have to pay in some cases 20 $500 a month in childcare, and it should be a more present parent is beneficial. I'd also argue that companies there is a certain onus on employees. I agree with you there, but I believe that companies have to make the work a destination.

00:09:13:02 - 00:09:47:00
Phil Simon
Don't make me come in because I have to make me come in because I want you researching the book. I found many examples of companies that have completely rethought the office. My favorite example is Cisco. In the Manhattan office pre-pandemic 70% of the workspace Wain was allocated to individual workstation cubicles, desks, whatever they inverted that they spent a ton of money making it 30% individual workstations because they understand that if you're going to be coding or doing individual work all day, we don't want you there, right?

00:09:47:02 - 00:10:11:16
Phil Simon
It's actually better. It's a more flexible, collaborative environment so we can demonize employees all we want. And there certainly are many examples of slackers and quiet quitting. But if I were running any company of consequence, I would absolutely make it a cool place to be or people would want to hang out. And even though that mandate might be two days a week, people come in three or four because it actually is a better environment.

00:10:11:17 - 00:10:38:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that ties to employee engagement. One of the things that this show is very big on is that engagement isn't something companies can do. They can create an environment that people want to engage with. But engagement comes from inside the individual person, right? You choose. I can get down on one knee and give you a ring, but you're not engaged until you say yes.

00:10:38:23 - 00:11:00:03
Phil Simon
So I think we're now at my my prediction for laughing twice with your questions. But yeah, I mean, we could talk about nature versus nurture all day long. If I had to give a pithy 140 character answer, I'd just say do the opposite of what Musk is doing with Twitter and you'll probably be in a good spot.

00:11:00:05 - 00:11:11:04
Wayne Turmel
Safe enough. But this gets to one of your nine things, which is employee empowerment. Tell me what you mean by that.

00:11:11:06 - 00:11:35:22
Phil Simon
Yeah, as I've said before, when I think it's silly to believe that employees will return to their relatively docile states and forget what I think. Union approval ratings, I believe, are at 72%. Last time I checked. That's the highest rate in something like 40 or 50 years. Amazon famously is facing a number of union votes, and I think a few of them have been successful, even employee friendly companies.

00:11:35:22 - 00:12:10:12
Phil Simon
In the book, I write about Kickstarter and Trader Joe's have had to deal with unions, and I start off the book with the example of Google and how employees and contractors there basically staged a walkout over what happened with Andy Rubin from Android Frame fame and some sexual impropriety charges with the whole MeToo movement. It was remarkable to me watching that whole thing play out back in 2018, because Google employees aren't steelworker employees in the minds of Pennsylvania dying on the job or facing lung disease.

00:12:10:14 - 00:12:33:23
Phil Simon
They get free massages and dry cleaning and food, and here they are. So I think, again, all of these forces are related. And if you take for granted the fact that we do have a more dispersed workplace than a natural extension of that is I don't want to commute an hour each way. Prior to the pandemic, the average American commute was 37 minutes.

00:12:33:23 - 00:13:00:15
Phil Simon
I get that back twice per week. That's how is my math 168 minutes. That's close to 3 hours that I could spend walking my dog or watching TV shows or spending time with my family or whatever. So I. I couldn't separate the two. That's why they go in that particular order. But we've seen this with employees, this whole notion of bringing your whole self to work and maybe the pandemic contributed to that.

00:13:00:17 - 00:13:23:21
Phil Simon
If we saw you at home and you had a dog or a cat or a Breaking Bad poster in the background like I do, you got to know people a bit. And employees, right or wrong, started to develop this expectation. And without getting all political, we see how say would Salesforce, after Roe v Wade got overturned, the company more or less said, We will work with you to find alternatives.

00:13:23:23 - 00:13:55:22
Phil Simon
That to me, Wayne was unfathomable. Ten years ago. So progressive employers are responding to this because they realize it's just good business. That doesn't mean that you can placate employees as I said before, I think it's completely reasonable to expect people to come to the office once in a while. But I just don't think, particularly in this country, if you look at our labor laws compared to your home country, Canada, our countries in Europe that are much more employee friendly, I think it's going to be incredibly difficult to attract employees if you just say, we're giving you a paycheck now, shut up and do as you're told.

00:13:56:00 - 00:14:18:00
Wayne Turmel
Well, and there is a three beverage conversation to be had about the changing contract in the workplace. Right. This notion that for years the lip service has always been it's supply and demand. And when demand is up, you know, one side has leverage over the other. But it's been 60 years since Labor actually had any leverage.

00:14:18:02 - 00:14:39:06
Phil Simon
Yeah, it says it's funny. My masters is an industrial labor relations. I could bore you for more than three beverages on this topic, but I, I do think that a shift has taken place and that to me it's not a binary. So the pendulum will maybe swing back and forth a little bit, but I do think that employees in general and particularly talented folks will have no shortage of alternatives.

00:14:39:06 - 00:14:56:09
Phil Simon
And for you, if it's a deal breaker to only go in the office once or twice a week, you'll be able to find jobs like that from the previous book. Or maybe it was two books ago, I forget. But there was a story of a company that recruited a guy and he was thinking about the offer accepted on a Friday.

00:14:56:09 - 00:15:22:03
Phil Simon
But on Monday morning he emailed the recruiter and said, I'm sorry, I can't do this. Okay. Why you use Microsoft teams? I'm a Slack guy. To me, that is just a particular data point. But the very idea and I'm a big Slack fan or Slack for Dummies, I use it almost every day. The fact that you could say basically I like Miller Lite, not Bud Light, therefore I'm not going to watch that team no matter how much I like them.

00:15:22:04 - 00:15:37:22
Phil Simon
Does signal that the pendulum, I believe, has swung to employees, at least for the time being. And if you take a look at some of the other forces in the book, I just I'm not saying it's going to stick at 80% or 90%, but I don't think it's going to shift completely to the other way any time soon.

00:15:38:00 - 00:15:43:03
Phil Simon
But maybe generally I will prove me wrong.

00:15:43:05 - 00:16:10:16
Wayne Turmel
There are about five rabbit holes in that sense that I desperately want to go down and I'm not because I am a professional, darn it. But what I do want to do is talk about something that you spend some time on. And it's interesting to me that you broke it out as a separate item, okay? Because to me, this is part of the empowered employee thing and it's certainly important.

00:16:10:16 - 00:16:42:12
Wayne Turmel
And that is the idea of the analytics that we use to manage people and measure success and reward people. Are we are still using horse and buggy metrics and, you know, what's his face following people around in the factories in Buffalo doing time studies the idea that we're using the metrics, what's wrong with the metrics? We're using and how should we be measuring work instead?

00:16:42:14 - 00:16:47:11
Phil Simon
Oh, you want to talk about rabbit holes. That's all the time out of the way.

00:16:47:11 - 00:16:49:17
Wayne Turmel
Fluffy.

00:16:49:19 - 00:17:14:03
Phil Simon
I think you're thinking of Frederick Winslow Taylor from that. Sam Yep. There you go. You know, by way of background, I'm not anti data. I've written books about analytics, big data, data visualization. I think that data can certainly informed decisions. But when it comes to productivity, we've got a number of problems. First off, and Rodney Malar from Vox wrote a great piece on this.

00:17:14:03 - 00:17:33:18
Phil Simon
Of course, after my book came out and it was just a month ago, it was something about how companies are obsessed with productivity, but they can't define it. So what does it mean? Does it mean being in the office? Well, that's not true because we saw during the pandemic you could not go to an office and we struggled at first with Zoom and different tools, but we were, by all accounts, productive.

00:17:33:19 - 00:17:53:22
Phil Simon
Microsoft's done some fascinating research about not only were we as productive, but as possibly more so. In fact, they coined the term second shift. People were putting in another hour or two after dinner, so they weren't get deluged in the morning with messages or they could prove that they were working hard and not watching Game of Thrones or Better Call Saul.

00:17:54:00 - 00:18:23:11
Phil Simon
So there's that. But generally speaking, and this isn't limited to the world of remote work, but I am fascinated with good hearts, lore and Campbell's lore. And to paraphrase them, they kind of overlap. But the minute that you begin measuring something, it ceases to become an effective measure. So by way of example, as a former college professor in part, I was not tenured, so I would receive an offer in part, again based on my student evals because students know what they want.

00:18:23:12 - 00:18:39:23
Phil Simon
Right? Okay, I can get my student evals up from a five to a six. On a scale of seven, I'll just make it easy. You know what, Wayne? I know you missed your assignment. What the hell? Have another crack at it and you're going to give me a higher rating If I'm a hardass and I am, I'm not going to do that.

00:18:40:01 - 00:18:58:09
Phil Simon
And you're going to give me a lower rating. But I'd argue that I'm actually doing you a favor. Now, higher education aside, once you know that they're grading you on how often you come to the office, you can come to the office and check out right. I'm pretty sure that in an era of bring your own device, you can find ways to slack off.

00:18:58:11 - 00:19:18:11
Phil Simon
Then you see companies countering that with surveillance software, particularly for remote employees. And then there are programs that you can download that will basically enter keystrokes because of course, if you're doing things you and I both know, that means you're super productive. And if you're thinking and not touching your keyboard, then you can't be doing something worthwhile. So I don't have all the answers.

00:19:18:11 - 00:19:40:12
Phil Simon
But I do think that when we tend to quantify things, and especially if you're working in a remote or hybrid capacity and we're entering things, we're using applications, you're going to be able to come up with certain numbers, but they're not necessarily effective ones. And if you tell me what the numbers are going to be, I don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out how to game them.

00:19:40:14 - 00:20:05:14
Wayne Turmel
Thank you so much. That's fabulous. I told you people that this would be a very high level conversation and give you what's to think about. And I hope your head hurts right now. I really do. The book, The Nine, The Tech Talk. Tectonic Forces Bet Reshaping the Workplace is an excellent, excellent read. If you want just stuff to generate your thinking.

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:45:22
Wayne Turmel
Phil, you and I have had much longer conversations. They are much deeper rabbit holes and I hope that will continue. But thank you so much for being with us and just introducing some of these topics to us. I truly appreciate it. For those of you listening, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you want links to Phil's book and his work and to him, if you want a transcript of this show, because so much good stuff flew by fast visit long distance worklife dot com you can also by the way, speaking of Marisa, we are currently taking pet peeves and questions.

00:20:45:23 - 00:21:12:16
Wayne Turmel
Those episodes people really seem to enjoy and you don't have any problem complaining, so get those in there. We want to hear from you if you have not yet checked out. Kevin’s and my new book, The Long Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone's Success. By golly, please do so. We really appreciate it. If you're listening to this, this is unlikely to be your first podcast, so you know the drill.

00:21:12:20 - 00:21:40:11
Wayne Turmel
Like subscribe, tell your friends. If you didn't like it, keep your mouth shut. And if you want to reach us on either LinkedIn or by email, wayne@kevineikenberry.com, marisa@kevineikenberry.com. Phil Simon. Thank you so much, man. Good to talk to you. We really appreciate it. And for the rest of you, we will be back next week with another episode.

00:21:40:16 - 00:21:42:06
Wayne Turmel
Don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction to the podcast and guest Phil Simon
00:01:16 Discussing the nine trends shaping remote and hybrid work
00:02:51 Focus on the dispersed workplace and its impact on organizations
00:06:12 Importance of helping individuals prepare for remote work
00:07:26 The value of in-person collaboration and social ties
00:08:47 Teaching boundaries and creating a work destination
00:09:47 Example of Cisco rethinking the office space
00:10:38 Engagement comes from creating an engaging environment
00:11:00 Conclusion on creating a positive work environment
00:12:10 The dispersed workplace and the desire for flexibility
00:16:10 Outdated metrics and measuring productivity
00:17:14 Defining productivity and the shift in remote work
00:18:23 The flaws of quantifying and gaming productivity metrics
00:19:18 The ineffectiveness of quantified numbers in remote work
00:20:05 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Name: Phil Simon

What He Does: Workplace technology expert and author of The Nine: The Tectonic Forces Reshaping the Workplace

Notable: He also hosts the podcast, Conversations About Collaboration

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Remote Work Rants: Holding Attention & Harnessing Breakout Rooms on Long-Distance Worklife Podcast with Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry

Ask Wayne Anything, Technology, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Holding Attention and Harnessing Breakout Rooms

Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel delve into the realm of remote work pet peeves, with a particular focus on virtual meetings. As they banter in their signature casual-yet-business-oriented style, Marisa and Wayne discuss the ups and downs of attention spans, attention-grabbing tactics, and the intricate dynamics of breakout sessions. Sharing insights from their own experiences, they highlight the importance of intentional meeting behavior and how to make breakout rooms truly effective. Tune in to gain valuable tips on managing meeting frustrations and optimizing remote team interactions.

Key Takeaways

1. Attention spans are shorter in virtual meetings, so facilitators should change things up every 6 minutes to keep participants engaged.
2. Meeting behavior is a performance management issue and should be addressed by managers.
3. Breakout rooms can be effective for generating better discussion and involving all participants, but they should have a specific outcome and be relevant to the topic at hand.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:09:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife.

00:00:09:13 - 00:00:19:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I’m Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:19:04 - 00:00:21:03
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marisa. How are you?

00:00:21:04 - 00:00:24:21
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. We're talking pet peeves today. Are you excited?

00:00:24:23 - 00:00:31:02
Wayne Turmel
You know, I love when people get a chance to vent. That makes me so happy.

00:00:31:04 - 00:00:51:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, I'm happy that we get to do this because. Oh, my gosh, I put out a question on my personal social media. So Twitter, LinkedIn, and my Facebook and said, What do you hate about virtual meetings? And nine of you responded, which does not sound like a lot, but in podcast world, that's a pretty big number. Which also tells you connect with me to get on the show.

00:00:52:01 - 00:00:54:03
Wayne Turmel
But you are.

00:00:54:05 - 00:00:54:10
Wayne Turmel
You.

00:00:54:14 - 00:01:03:17
Wayne Turmel
Know, when we started this show a year ago, she was like, I guess you could kind of contact me if you want. Now she's now she's like the queen of social media.

00:01:03:20 - 00:01:04:06
Marisa Eikenberry
I try.

00:01:05:16 - 00:01:28:06
Marisa Eikenberry
But anyway, so we asked you guys, what do you hate about virtual meetings? So many of you responded, Thank you. We're not going to be able to get through all of them in the show. So we're going to have multiple episodes just like we do with our other pet peeves. So keep sending those in. But I'm going to start with Sam Roberts from Twitter, who says Attention spans are shorter and we're fighting against countless distractions.

00:01:28:12 - 00:01:50:11
Marisa Eikenberry
This means facilitators need to do more prep and think of how to keep the agenda moving, to keep things interesting. I pressed a little harder just to say like, okay, so you're saying to keep things interesting, like our facilities are supposed to do that. She said that for her, she changes up what she's doing every 6 minutes. So thoughts on that as a facilitator for longer than I?

00:01:50:16 - 00:02:20:20
Wayne Turmel
Well, I think the instinct is right, which is that people do have short attention spans. Now, some of this is it's amazing. Attention span is within the normal realms, like if you keep it inside an hour or if you. Yeah, the attention span is discretionary. People are really good at paying attention to things that matter to them. Right.

00:02:21:00 - 00:02:28:12
Wayne Turmel
We are really good at tuning out things that our brain goes, don't care, don't want to know. Oh, look, Squirrel.

00:02:28:14 - 00:02:29:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:02:29:16 - 00:02:40:22
Wayne Turmel
Right. So some of this starts before the meeting. I wrote a book, and I know it's a little bit outdated, so this is not a plug for the book, but the title of the book was Meet Like, you mean it?

00:02:41:00 - 00:02:42:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:02:42:14 - 00:03:09:10
Wayne Turmel
Still pretty good advice. Right. Right. Why are we meeting? Is this something that needs to happen? Does the people that do the people that we've invited need to be there? And will they add value to the time to gather? Is this the best alternative as opposed to discussion threads or other asynchronous kind of things? But let's assume for a moment that you have actually made a conscious decision that this meeting matters.

00:03:09:14 - 00:03:13:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. And I assume you have an agenda for said meeting.

00:03:13:19 - 00:03:27:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, that's the next part is do people know why they're there? Do they know what's expected of them? Do they know what the desired outcomes are? You know, have you prepared them to hit the ground running?

00:03:27:23 - 00:03:29:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:03:29:05 - 00:03:44:15
Wayne Turmel
And all of that is before you even start your presentation. Now, her point, about every 6 minutes we try to change this is absolutely right. I have said before and gotten in trouble for saying that human beings are like raccoons.

00:03:44:17 - 00:03:45:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:03:45:04 - 00:03:47:22
Wayne Turmel
We're attracted by color, light and motion.

00:03:48:00 - 00:03:50:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:03:50:11 - 00:04:07:03
Wayne Turmel
Are there things going on? And there's a fourth thing on there, which is sound. One of the cardinal sins of online meetings is people hear the same voice for a very long time.

00:04:07:05 - 00:04:08:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:08:20 - 00:04:23:09
Wayne Turmel
And after a while, our brains can only physically maintain focus on a single voice for a short period of time. After that, you turn into Charlie Brown's teacher. More, more, more, more.

00:04:23:09 - 00:04:23:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:24:00 - 00:04:25:20
Wayne Turmel
And it's very, very difficult.

00:04:25:20 - 00:04:27:21
Marisa Eikenberry
So we all had one of those teachers.

00:04:27:23 - 00:05:02:06
Wayne Turmel
The six minute rule is is fine. It's a perfectly valid rule. I try to do that by not making people hold their questions till the end. Mm hmm. Right. Doing check ins and not just any questions. Okay, good. But legitimate at check ins every little bit. You know, if you are presenting a slide deck, for example, I actually decide during my as I'm building my presentation where I want to stop and take questions.

00:05:02:08 - 00:05:12:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. You actually coached me on this on something I'm going to do this weekend. And and that was the idea that in between we're asking them questions about stuff that's relating to what I'm talking about.

00:05:12:20 - 00:05:37:14
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And so and I know I've mentioned this before. There's this concept called the horror limit, which is that we can only take in seven pieces of information because information comes into our short term memory. We process it. We decide what we need to keep and what we don't and what's worth remembering. And we move that to the oh, yeah, got to remember that pile and that makes room for more stuff.

00:05:37:16 - 00:05:38:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:05:38:12 - 00:05:48:14
Wayne Turmel
If, as is often the case, because we're trying to cram a bunch of stuff into a short period of time, you just turn on the firehose.

00:05:48:16 - 00:05:49:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:05:49:16 - 00:05:58:18
Wayne Turmel
And just one way. Push information to people. You are going to hit that horror limit wall very early.

00:05:58:19 - 00:06:01:14
Marisa Eikenberry
And then wonder why they forgot X, Y, Z.

00:06:01:16 - 00:06:27:12
Wayne Turmel
And then wonder what I told them. Now, there are a couple of things I'm going to say to this specifically about attention span, because I know we've got a bunch of other cool stuff that we want to address. Number one is don't be afraid of handouts, reference material, stuff that people can look at later.

00:06:27:14 - 00:06:29:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:06:29:07 - 00:07:07:07
Wayne Turmel
You don't have to give them everything and walk them all through it at that point. Right. If you can give them the information beforehand, that will be immensely helpful. But that requires something else. And this is something that managers don't want to talk about, but it's really important. Okay. And that is that meeting behavior is a piece of their job performance.

00:07:07:09 - 00:07:24:10
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And it needs to be coached like a performance management issue. And that covers both ends of the spectrum. If people are dominating the meetings and not being respectful and not giving people a chance to talk. That needs to be addressed.

00:07:24:12 - 00:07:25:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00:07:25:16 - 00:08:04:10
Wayne Turmel
If people are constantly logging on and and I'm talking about a convergence of problems, none of these are in and of themselves deal breakers. But if they come on to the meeting and they don't get there, you know, they're not on camera and they don't participate and they're constantly on mute the whole time. And, you know, they basically whine and complain and don't contribute in the chat or anything else.

00:08:04:12 - 00:08:13:20
Wayne Turmel
At some point in your one on ones as a manager, you should go, you know, you're awful quiet on the meetings. What's going on?

00:08:13:22 - 00:08:17:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. It makes you look like you're not a team player.

00:08:17:09 - 00:08:38:18
Wayne Turmel
And the problem is that that becomes a perception problem. Mm hmm. Right. And when you address that, why aren't you speaking up in meetings? You actually learn stuff. Right, Right. Like, I probably shouldn't be on that meeting anyway. Or I don't want to say anything, because you know how Bob is.

00:08:38:20 - 00:08:39:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:08:39:12 - 00:08:54:05
Wayne Turmel
Right. Which tells you that there's a team dynamic issue that needs to be addressed. Yeah. You know, it's like with the camera. Why don't you want to be on camera? Well, I just hate it now. Sucks to be you.

00:08:54:07 - 00:08:57:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Or is it a bandwidth issue? In which case you can't really happen.

00:08:57:15 - 00:08:58:11
Wayne Turmel
With the issue.

00:08:58:13 - 00:08:59:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Or anyone else.

00:08:59:12 - 00:09:10:06
Wayne Turmel
My kids are running around. It's it. I just got back from the gym, and if it's. I just got back from the gym, Maybe a little more notice. Mm hmm. Before you call me.

00:09:10:08 - 00:09:11:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:09:11:10 - 00:09:24:02
Wayne Turmel
Right. None of these things individually are dealbreakers, but when you put them all together, it starts to affect people's ability to pay attention in the meeting.

00:09:24:04 - 00:09:24:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:09:24:20 - 00:09:47:05
Wayne Turmel
So if you meet, like you mean it. Yeah, right. And you plan it, and you do the work up front and you hold people accountable or. I'm sorry, I use bad language when you help people be accountable. I don't want Kevin on my case.

00:09:47:07 - 00:09:49:18
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm going to send just that clip to him directly.

00:09:49:22 - 00:10:16:04
Wayne Turmel
What, you. Yeah, that would be great. Thank you. When you help people be accountable, if will make a difference. The thing is that meeting behavior over time has kind of devolved because we've allowed it to be devolved. We haven't addressed it. Mm hmm. Nobody says anything. I'm so busy trying to get through the meeting that, you know, I'm just as glamorous.

00:10:16:05 - 00:10:18:11
Wayne Turmel
Kept your mouth shut because I got to get stuff done.

00:10:18:13 - 00:10:42:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. You only have so much time to do it. Well, I'm going to go ahead and move on to the next question. But thank you, Sam, for sending that in. And so chat tsunami on Twitter said the stereotypical jokes that we said pre-COVID. And, you know, we get it. Our mike our mike is muted and I'm wearing trousers, let it go.

00:10:42:11 - 00:10:48:09
Marisa Eikenberry
And they also mention that breakout sessions are the bane of their existence. But I don't think we've talked about breakout sessions before.

00:10:48:11 - 00:10:51:15
Wayne Turmel
We haven't. I mean, to the first part.

00:10:51:18 - 00:10:52:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:10:53:01 - 00:10:55:18
Wayne Turmel
Right.

00:10:55:20 - 00:10:56:12
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean.

00:10:56:14 - 00:11:12:09
Wayne Turmel
People at the office still tend to resent those who don't go into the office every day and will take their little digs right? Yes, you are correct. We should have gotten past that point by now. Yeah.

00:11:12:09 - 00:11:17:10
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, you know, one third of my working life has been this pandemic remote work. Whatever.

00:11:17:12 - 00:11:26:17
Wayne Turmel
Say that again, louder for the people in the back, because we were talking about this before we started recording. And it's such an important point.

00:11:26:19 - 00:11:47:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. So full disclosure, I'm 31. I started working at this organization literally the Monday after I graduated college. So I worked here for nine years and one third of my working life has been this pandemic remote work stuff, which is kind of wild when you really think about it.

00:11:47:03 - 00:12:10:19
Wayne Turmel
It's incredibly wild and it means that what was normal in the before times or what was novel or weird no longer is right. We need to just deal with that and get on with it. So I think that's a valid point. What the topic of breakout rooms is really interesting.

00:12:10:21 - 00:12:35:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I mean, I've only been in some. I know for me it depends on the meeting that I'm in. So sometimes I don't mind the breakout session because I'm excited about whatever we're talking about and we're going to talk about this project or I like who I'm in the breakout session with, but I've also been in some where, you know, we're the volunteer organizations that I'm in that are talking about leadership stuff.

00:12:35:21 - 00:12:51:16
Marisa Eikenberry
For me, I'm like, I don't even really need to be here because I already know this, but that's beside point. So I get pulled into a breakout room for them and I'm like, Cool, we're going to answer these really fluffy questions that don't really matter, and then we're going to come in and talk about it and yay, rah rah.

00:12:51:18 - 00:12:55:09
Marisa Eikenberry
So I think sometimes it depends on how the breakout session is done.

00:12:55:11 - 00:13:08:11
Wayne Turmel
Okay. Like everything else, if you're going to do something, understand why you're doing it right. You said something which is fluffy whatevers.

00:13:08:12 - 00:13:09:16
Marisa Eikenberry
And we've all been in those.

00:13:09:17 - 00:13:18:12
Wayne Turmel
We have established on this show that Wayne is not a fan of Fluffy ice breakers. They irritate me in general.

00:13:18:14 - 00:13:20:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. We have a video.

00:13:20:00 - 00:13:20:13
Wayne Turmel
Hook it up.

00:13:20:15 - 00:13:21:16
Marisa Eikenberry
An icebreaker.

00:13:21:17 - 00:13:48:01
Wayne Turmel
But I'd rather get to the business at hand. So if you are going to do remote or breakout rooms, why are you doing them in training? There is a very reasonable reason, which is sometimes you want different groups to discuss different things. Sometimes it's because you generally get better input in groups of four or five than you would in a room full of 20.

00:13:48:03 - 00:14:12:15
Wayne Turmel
Mm hmm. Everybody gets to speak. You're introverts aren't as intimidated or, you know, the groups tend to generate better discussion and then they come out and they debrief. And it it's it's generally better input. And it's also a great way to jumpstart a meeting that otherwise people join in, they go on mute and there's nothing happening at the beginning.

00:14:12:16 - 00:14:20:13
Wayne Turmel
Mm hmm. If you are doing them just to give them something to do, they are not going to be looked on fondly.

00:14:20:15 - 00:14:21:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:14:21:08 - 00:15:00:02
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, they should be relevant to the topic at hand. They should not put people in an embarrassing situation. I think breakout rooms can be very helpful and they're especially helpful if you have the same people, the same large group of people, and they've done it a few times the first time you use a breakout room. It's weird and awkward and people aren't really sure how it works and what they're supposed to do once they've done it a couple of times and it becomes standard operating procedure.

00:15:00:04 - 00:15:26:18
Wayne Turmel
They can be very helpful, but you need to have a specific outcome that there is a reason we'd broken you into small groups. This is what we want. We tend to be very prescriptive. We're in a class and we send people in to breakout rooms. We will, as part of the instructions, say things like The person whose next birthday it is is going to report out.

00:15:26:20 - 00:15:31:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Yeah. And then you don't have to do this. Well, do you want to do it? Well, what about you?

00:15:31:04 - 00:16:01:03
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. It's. Here's your assignment. Get to work. Oh, look, you're finished. Your work. Let's report out. Your work is important. We're seeking your input. We respected your input. We've acknowledged your input, and it's added value to the meeting. If you're doing it just to have something light and fluffy to do. And I suspect the person who sent that in a is male.

00:16:01:05 - 00:16:04:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, I know this person. So. Yes.

00:16:05:00 - 00:16:28:20
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Okay. So, you know, probably not as grumpy and old as me, but certainly grumpy and male and probably focused on Let me do my work. Let's get to work. Let's do what we need to do. And so the the value of the breakout rooms isn't as apparent.

00:16:28:22 - 00:16:29:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:16:30:00 - 00:16:38:03
Wayne Turmel
Because it's being seen as soft and fluffy and getting in the way of the desired outcome of the meeting.

00:16:38:05 - 00:16:43:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. I mean, just like we talk about all the time, clear communication is key there.

00:16:43:18 - 00:16:49:23
Wayne Turmel
But it's like everything else. If you're going to do something in a meeting, what is the reason for it?

00:16:50:01 - 00:16:51:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, don't waste people's time.

00:16:51:11 - 00:17:09:03
Wayne Turmel
If everybody knows everybody, if this team has been together forever, how much of an icebreaker do you really need right. And do we need to go through the mechanics of breaking out into a room and going back? Well, most of us went to the movies this weekend. That doesn't feel.

00:17:09:05 - 00:17:19:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah, but if it's like, hey, we have this one problem that we need to solve and we're going to pull you into breakout sessions so you guys can talk about, you know, how we might be able to approach this a little different.

00:17:19:10 - 00:17:53:15
Wayne Turmel
Well, or, you know, a really common one is you signed up for this course. You signed up for this meeting. What is your top priority? What is the thing that worries you the most about this? What are you most concerned about? That is a very legitimate use. And as the larger the group gets, the more you need to do that, because if you get above the team level, right, if you get above six, seven, eight people, just the group dynamics are going to dictate that some people are going to talk and some people are going to hide.

00:17:53:17 - 00:17:55:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:17:55:12 - 00:18:07:22
Wayne Turmel
Breakout rooms if used properly and properly managed, can draw information and involve those people who might otherwise hide or not be heard.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:28:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's all we have time for today. But we have so many more. Like I said, we had nine people respond and I'm so excited to get to more of these and future episodes. If you have one, please make sure to send it in. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to the long distance worklife for show notes, transcripts and other resources.

00:18:28:16 - 00:18:45:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit long distance worklife dot com. If you haven't yet subscribe so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn or any of our social media profiles. Those are all in our show notes.

00:18:45:17 - 00:18:46:07
Marisa Eikenberry
And let us know.

00:18:46:07 - 00:18:54:00
Wayne Turmel
You should know by now that Marissa is apparently the queen of social media and she does listen when people tell her stuff.

00:18:54:05 - 00:19:16:01
Marisa Eikenberry
So yeah, it's really true. If you want to talk to somebody about the podcast, talk to me. That is that is not a secret. But anyway, if you have pet peeves, if you have topics that you want us to tackle, if you know thoughts, general, whatever, like email us, talk to us, send me a message. I get so excited when I hear from listeners, so please do that.

00:19:16:03 - 00:19:27:22
Marisa Eikenberry
And if you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Barry's new book, The Long Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team BBC.com. Thanks for joining us. As we like to say, don't let the weasels get too down.

Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction
00:00:19 Discussion about virtual meeting pet peeves
00:01:28 Attention spans are shorter and distractions are a challenge
00:03:09 Importance of meeting preparation and clear objectives
00:04:07 The need to change things up every 6 minutes
00:05:49 The impact of long monologues on attention span
00:06:29 The value of providing handouts and reference materials
00:07:07 Meeting behavior as a performance management issue
00:08:04 Addressing issues of dominant or unengaged meeting participants
00:08:17 The perception problem of not actively participating in meetings
00:08:38 Team dynamic issue needs to be addressed.
00:08:54 Camera and bandwidth issues affect meeting participation.
00:09:10 Lack of notice and distractions affect meeting engagement.
00:09:24 Meeting behavior has devolved due to lack of accountability.
00:10:42 Stereotypical jokes and breakout sessions as meeting challenges.
00:11:26 Remote work during the pandemic is a significant portion of work life.
00:12:10 Breakout sessions can be effective if done purposefully.
00:13:08 Fluffy ice breakers are not favored by Wayne.
00:14:20 Breakout rooms should have a specific outcome and purpose.
00:16:43 Clear communication and not wasting time are essential in meetings.
00:16:50 Reason for doing something in a meeting
00:17:09 Icebreaker activities in meetings
00:17:19 Using breakout sessions to solve problems
00:17:53 Importance of involving all participants in larger group meetings
00:18:08 Proper use and management of breakout rooms
00:18:28 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Guests, Hybrid Work, Leadership, Technology

Solving the Challenges of Hybrid Teams with AI Technology with Projjal (PJ) Ghatak

Wayne Turmel interviews Projjal (PJ) Ghatak, CEO and co-founder of OnLoop, a habit-forming AI-powered platform for high-functioning teams. They discuss the challenges faced by hybrid teams and the need for increased clarity and visibility in remote work. OnLoop helps managers and team members stay connected and informed through regular check-ins and feedback. The platform aims to address biases and create a level playing field for all employees. Ghatak emphasizes the importance of rethinking traditional work practices and embracing the transition to a hybrid workplace.

Key Takeaways

1. OnLoop helps managers of hybrid teams navigate the reduced visibility and clarity that comes with remote and hybrid work.
2. The platform uses habit-forming technology to make it easier for managers to understand what is happening with each team member.
3. OnLoop aims to close the perception gap and eliminate biases by bringing better visibility into the actual work being done.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:04 - 00:00:32:16
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Long Distance Work Life, the podcast, where we help you thrive, survive, live. Figure out how to find your way in this crazy, evolving world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. I'm a master trainer and coach here at the Kevin Eikenberry Group, coauthor of the Long Distance Work Life Books.

00:00:32:18 - 00:01:05:01
Wayne Turmel
And we'll talk more about those in a bit. This is one of these episodes where Marissa is not with me. That doesn't mean you should leave, because we have another really interesting interview with a really, really smart person. And so to that point, I am going to bring in Brazil P.J. Gottschalk, who is with On Loop. And I'm going to let him introduce himself and what on loop does, and then we'll get into it.

00:01:05:02 - 00:01:38:04
Projjal Ghatak
Hey, man, thank you for having me. So in 2020, I started a company called on Loop. And what on loop really is, is a habit forming gen AI powered platform for goals and feedback in high functioning teams. And I know that that's a bunch of potentially buzzwords. And we can we can go deeper into it. But really, in essence, we were born as a company to help managers of hybrid teams really navigate sort of the reduced visibility that now have on their teams because people are remote or hybrid.

00:01:38:06 - 00:01:54:23
Projjal Ghatak
And so we were born in the pandemic. That was partly luck and that was partly the timing, given everything happening in the world. And our goal is to use our collaborative team developing framework to help hybrid managers do okay.

00:01:54:23 - 00:02:23:17
Wayne Turmel
So as you said, the buzzword alert went off big time during that. And that doesn't mean there aren't some things there that we need to talk about. So the first thing I guess is hybrid teams have certain challenges and whenever I talk to technology people, I'm actually less interested in the nuts and bolts of the technology because I'm not smart enough to understand what any of that is.

00:02:23:19 - 00:02:32:12
Wayne Turmel
What I do care about is what's the problem you're solving for. So when hybrid teams in particular, what were you trying to cure?

00:02:32:14 - 00:02:58:10
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah, so, so the disease really is one of reduced clarity, right? So, so before managers had their team members at their beck and call five days a week in the office. And so it was much easier to infer how someone was doing what they were working on, how it was progressing and giving quick feedback, giving quick coaching or tips and advice.

00:02:58:12 - 00:03:25:15
Projjal Ghatak
That medium has largely now been constrained into a much shorter time frame. And so managers around the world are incredibly anxious as to whether their teams are focusing on the right things and moving in the right direction. At the same time, team members are also anxious as to where they stand because they now have a much more reduce feedback loop with their managers.

00:03:25:17 - 00:03:38:01
Projjal Ghatak
And our job as a company is to really fill in that visibility and clarity gap that has been inserted into the workplace because of a shift to a hybrid feature.

00:03:38:01 - 00:03:55:17
Wayne Turmel
I mean, the thing about technology is it's garbage in, garbage out, right? And so when we're talking about clarity and expectations, how does the technology help a manager who maybe isn't doing a great job at this?

00:03:55:19 - 00:04:20:00
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah. So we all believe that every manager in the world has good intent. Nobody walks into the workplace and says, I'm going to be a bad manager today. But it is also overwhelming for a manager. The average manager has 4 to 6 direct reports. They have their own responsibility and their own pressures coming from their managers and it's a hard job to juggle.

00:04:20:02 - 00:04:20:19
Projjal Ghatak
And so.

00:04:21:01 - 00:04:21:09
Wayne Turmel
What.

00:04:21:09 - 00:04:44:23
Projjal Ghatak
We do with our platform is make it much easier for the manager to get a sense of what is happening with each of the team members, and that might be related to the person's wellbeing. It might be related to the fact that they may not be clear what they're working on. It might be they're not receiving enough feedback so that they can take the right action at the right time for the right team member.

00:04:45:01 - 00:05:23:12
Projjal Ghatak
And and where we take a lot of inspiration from is fitness apps. And so we've seen products like the Woo Band and the Aura Ring take concepts like diet and exercise and sleep and give each individual a readiness score and also suggested next actions of what they can do around their readiness. And we sort of draw that parallel to clarity and we help managers navigate where a team member might be blocked or where they might need help so that they can invest the time in the place that accelerates the team in the best way possible.

00:05:23:14 - 00:05:50:17
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I don't want to get too hung up on the technology, but this is fascinating for me. So how does walk me through? I'm stuck. I'm working on something and I'm stuck. How does the I magical Genie robot thing? Yeah. Been to my manager. And what does he hear or see that tells him that I need help?

00:05:50:19 - 00:06:12:04
Projjal Ghatak
Natalie So, you know, one of the things, as you said, garbage in, garbage out. So all of the things we do in our product is make it much more habit forming. So when people use the on loop app, we see much more regular updates that team members are making towards as to what is the state of their wellbeing or how a day progressing against their goals.

00:06:12:04 - 00:06:50:08
Projjal Ghatak
And, and when people are reflecting and checking in on a much more bite sized continual visit, it's much easier to spot when something's off track or things that to be brought on track. And so, you know, there is no magician reading through your emails or Slack messages making up stuff. It's really making it really easy for managers and team members to keep each other updated of what's happening and discovering things that might be going off track much sooner than a weekly one on one conversation, or even worse, off a team meeting that happens every two weeks.

00:06:50:10 - 00:07:18:23
Wayne Turmel
How do you what are the conversations like with clients as you're talking about integrate this? Because I see the benefit everything you're talking about. And there is a lot of push back right now from employees about, oh, this is glorified keystroke monitoring. Yeah, you know, they're going to come and take me away if I'm not putting in so many minutes per hour at the keyboard.

00:07:19:01 - 00:07:24:19
Wayne Turmel
How do you have those conversations and what are those look like?

00:07:25:01 - 00:07:56:23
Projjal Ghatak
And that's a really good question. And so all of our messaging, as well as onboarding new customers, is very much targeted to the icons, the individual contributors and the managers, because unfortunately, practices like performance management has created a ton of baggage around form filling and check boxing and compliance exercises that don't make the employee feel that the stuff they're doing is actually for their benefit.

00:07:57:01 - 00:08:23:19
Projjal Ghatak
And so part of our package when we onboard a new customer is obviously the app, but also a fairly intense 12 week success program where we build the habits that drive that clarity and give team members that benefit. And and there's no other product in the world bar none that's focused on the end user and not on a functional organization like h.r.

00:08:23:19 - 00:08:50:17
Projjal Ghatak
So for us, h.r. Is a stakeholder, but our customer is really the manager and good teams, and that's what's very important for the managers and the teams to see the benefit for them to then adopt a product and only the product is adopted to drive the impact that it aspires to have. And therefore, for us, we basically serve the hybrid manager and the organization above all else.

00:08:50:19 - 00:09:00:05
Wayne Turmel
What are some of the habits and best practices that managers need to develop that you're seeing need that kind of support?

00:09:00:07 - 00:09:21:06
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah. So one of the great sort of habits, one of my customer success team members came up with was called to want to check in every week, which is making two well-being checks, making one celebrate capsule about something that went well and then requesting one piece of feedback on a goal that they're working towards and and it's an easy thing to do.

00:09:21:07 - 00:09:54:19
Projjal Ghatak
You can do it in a matter of seconds, if not a minute. And what that does is build up a rhythm of getting a pulse of what's going on and not requiring a manager to pester and check in being like, what's happening on this project and what's happening on that project? And so the very simple habits that we can create and also tack on to other things that are happening often on loop will get used as part of a team meeting to do celebrate peers or to solicit feedback or to brainstorm around a project someone stuck on.

00:09:54:21 - 00:10:36:19
Projjal Ghatak
And so habit formation is a lot about taking what's already happening and that might be one on one or team huddles and conversations and inserting technology or new habits into that so that they stack the right way. But but these take a lot of time and effort to design the product. And in fact, right now we're doing a full design overhaul of the product based on user feedback to really make these habits second nature so that people don't see it as a chore to be done, which is how people have typically viewed goals and feedback works, is something that's making their life easier and allowing them to cross their goals much faster.

00:10:36:21 - 00:10:57:12
Wayne Turmel
And of course, a big part of your marketing, your message to the world is around hybrid teams. And I know that there are some specific What are the challenges to hybrid teams that you're seeing in your clients that managers need to be super vigilant about?

00:10:57:14 - 00:11:16:20
Projjal Ghatak
Yeah, So, you know hybrids obviously a new buzzword that the pandemic's created. So I often also use the word distributed, right? So I used to work for a company called Uber for many years and we had thousands of people around the world. And so when I was living in Singapore in a global role at Uber, I was working with team members around the world.

00:11:16:22 - 00:11:43:13
Projjal Ghatak
And so when the pandemic happened, it was that we are to spend many hours on a on a Zoom call. But but really instead of the technology that we had built to get work done was very much centered around facilitating an in office workplace and and you know, leaders tend to be older and and older people are creatures of habit and they.

00:11:43:13 - 00:11:47:00
Wayne Turmel
Don't I have no idea what you're talking.

00:11:47:02 - 00:11:56:19
Projjal Ghatak
And they don't like changing things all that often. Although you do move continent to continent every every few years that might be that might be an exception.

00:11:57:00 - 00:11:59:16
Wayne Turmel
And so, you know, people are used.

00:11:59:16 - 00:12:24:10
Projjal Ghatak
To seeing work getting done. And just because they can't see work getting done, they're anxious that work is not getting done. And Microsoft calls that the productivity paranoia, that 12% of leaders believe that their teams are productive, which is 87% of employees are saying they are perfectly productive in this new world. And so that creates a big perception gap.

00:12:24:12 - 00:12:53:17
Projjal Ghatak
And and sort of as we think about pooling our approaches, we need to close that perception gap, because I think reality is showing us that hybrids the way we move is, in fact, things like API, things like VR and AR are only going to make teams more dispersed and be able to effectively collaborate across borders. So in the next three, five, ten years, we'll see more teams distributed around the world.

00:12:53:17 - 00:13:09:17
Projjal Ghatak
And so this train has left the station, so there's no point putting the genie back in the bottle. We just need to rethink the experience so that we are thinking of pools and processes to cater to this new world versus trying to force an old world that is never coming back.

00:13:09:18 - 00:13:41:07
Wayne Turmel
And that brings us to something that I know you at on Loop are very cognizant of, which is the idea of proximity bias. Right. And that to me is what I'm hearing over and over and over again as the biggest hurdle. It shouldn't be, it seems to me, but it is the biggest hurdle that managers of distributed teams and if they're fully distributed, it's much less of an issue than if they've got a core group of people in the office.

00:13:41:09 - 00:13:52:04
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, tell me a little bit about that problem that you're solving for and then how will technology and tools help deal with that now?

00:13:52:04 - 00:14:07:23
Projjal Ghatak
I mean, proximity bias is a good way of framing it. I, I call it eloquence bias that that people who sound better are perceived to be better or the people who are talking more about their work are doing more work. And there's and there's very good proven research.

00:14:07:23 - 00:14:10:14
Wayne Turmel
That some of us have made a career out of that that.

00:14:10:16 - 00:14:33:22
Projjal Ghatak
I like. I agree. Right. And I'm and I want to fix that because I've benefited from it. And I think that's entirely fair. And so people talk a lot about closing the gender pay gap or die at work. But the reality is that no amount of training is going to change those issues. What's going to change is how are we assessing?

00:14:33:22 - 00:14:54:14
Projjal Ghatak
We're getting done and so often that we see and we're probably going to take out a couple of case studies about this, about certain individuals using the on loop team, on loop on the app, on how much more seen they feel like work, because now their work is now equally seen where it says who has the most confidence to speak up in a room.

00:14:54:16 - 00:15:15:17
Projjal Ghatak
And we feel very passionately about just bringing fairness and visibility across the board to everyone's work. Equally worse is who has drinks with the manager or who's speaking up more in meetings. And the people who struggle to speak up in in-person settings struggle even more in hybrid settings. And it's much harder to speak up in a Zoom call or speak up in a room.

00:15:15:22 - 00:15:26:14
Projjal Ghatak
And so that bias is only getting worse. And we believe the only way we can fix that or close that gap is by bringing better visibility into the actual work that each person's doing.

00:15:26:18 - 00:15:53:04
Wayne Turmel
And in our work, Kevin and I, in a number of our books have talked about what we call ethical visibility, which is the responsibility of the employee to be visible to their manager and their colleagues for exactly that reason. I'm guessing that tech that the technology is not just one way, it's not just manager to employee, but the employee can be more proactive about it.

00:15:53:06 - 00:16:20:04
Projjal Ghatak
So so one thing I've learned is and you know, I had imagined Santas in the past as well, if someone can advocate for themselves, why should I go out of my way? And what I've learned is that is privilege working at its very best, because often people don't understand the confidence gap that a lot of people who are minorities or come from socially disadvantaged families or women often struggle with and having the confidence of speaking up.

00:16:20:04 - 00:16:51:13
Projjal Ghatak
And so we absolutely need to build tools and approaches that allows everybody to be visible irrespective of how much confidence they have to speak up in a room. And as I've got older and I've been reminded of my own privileges, I've got a lot more cognizant to the fact that just because someone's not standing up or advocating for themselves, it may not be in their control and might go back to deep rooted situations on where they come from.

00:16:51:16 - 00:17:16:01
Wayne Turmel
Well, the fact that there is an inherent power gap in every employer employee relationship is there. I am fascinated by what you just said. I think that's huge. And as usual, as an old cis white male, I feel I feel both seen and attacked, which is probably as it should be. So thank you very much for raising that.

00:17:16:02 - 00:17:22:16
Wayne Turmel
Anything. PJ Before we close out the show and send people on their way.

00:17:22:18 - 00:17:44:09
Projjal Ghatak
No, thank you for all the work that you are doing. I think more and more people need to be focused on this transition to a hybrid workplace, and I think we will have to rethink a lot of things that we've taken for granted pre-pandemic. And it is it is both exciting and daunting to hopefully do our small bit in that transition.

00:17:44:12 - 00:18:08:12
Wayne Turmel
Excellent. Thank you so much. Profile PJ Gottschalk, thank you so much for being with us. I am going to remove you from the room for just a moment while I close up. Thank you for listening. There was a lot of really good stuff in this interview. I liked the piece at the end actually about how technology can help a level playing field, so I think that's so important.

00:18:08:14 - 00:18:47:16
Wayne Turmel
But on the other hand, if you are a regular listener, please like and subscribe to the show. If you enjoyed this conversation, if you want links to project two on loop to any or just to recap some of what we talked about, you can find those show notes at long distance work life dot com. If you are interested in building a hybrid team, perhaps using some of these tools, but want to know what goes into that, check out Kevin Eikenberry and his new book, The Long Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone six.

00:18:47:18 - 00:19:13:09
Wayne Turmel
Marisa will be back next week. We are having a blast hearing from you with your pet peeves, your questions. People are kind of digging the chance to snark and vent a little bit. So we love hearing from you. Please drop us a line. Wayne at Kevin Eikenberry dot com Marissa at Kevin Eikenberry ecom or connect with us on LinkedIn.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:25:23
Wayne Turmel
That's it thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Thank you to P.J. for stopping in. We will see you on the next episode of the long distance Work Life. Don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to the podcast and Projjal Ghatak
01:05 The problem of reduced clarity in hybrid teams
03:55 How technology helps managers with clarity and expectations
05:50 Addressing concerns about employee monitoring
09:00 Developing habits and best practices for managers
10:57 Challenges of hybrid teams and the need for visibility
13:41 Solving the problem of proximity bias in hybrid teams
15:26 The importance of ethical visibility for all employees
17:44 Closing remarks

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Name: Projjal (PJ) Ghatak

What He Does: CEO and Co-Founder of OnLoop

Notable: Projjal Ghatak is the founder of On Loop, a habit-forming AI-powered platform for goals and feedback in high-functioning teams. On Loop was created to help managers of hybrid teams navigate the reduced visibility and clarity that comes with remote and hybrid work. Projjal has a background in working with global teams and is passionate about bringing fairness and visibility to everyone's work.

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Meeting Cancellations and Time Zone Troubles episode of Long-Distance Worklife podcast with Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry

Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Meeting Cancellations and Time Zone Troubles

In this pet peeves episode, Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel tackle two common frustrations faced by remote workers: last-minute meeting cancellations and the challenges of coordinating meetings across different time zones. They empathize with the annoyance of blocked-out time being wasted and provide insights on how to handle such situations professionally. The hosts also discuss the importance of considering team members' time zones when scheduling meetings and how to avoid unintentional home office bias. Listeners will gain valuable tips on effective communication, asynchronous alternatives, and fostering a more understanding and inclusive remote work culture.

Key Takeaways

1. Last-minute meeting cancellations can be frustrating, but acknowledging the inconvenience and providing a reason for the cancellation can help alleviate the frustration.
2. When meetings involve participants from different time zones, consider their preferences and try to find meeting times that are mutually convenient.
3. Utilize asynchronous communication methods like recorded videos or shared documents to avoid unnecessary late-night or early-morning meetings.
4. Be mindful of home office bias and make an effort to balance meeting times to accommodate team members in different time zones.
5. Effective communication, empathy, and flexibility are crucial for building a positive remote work culture that values the needs of all team members.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:12:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams.

00:00:12:10 - 00:00:18:12
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne!

00:00:18:13 - 00:00:20:13
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marisa. How are you?

00:00:20:14 - 00:00:23:15
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. Are you ready to tackle some more pet peeves today?

00:00:23:16 - 00:00:45:16
Wayne Turmel
I am. This is like my favorite thing is when I do training, I always tell people, don't be shy. This is your chance to vent. And just a little word about pet peeves in general. When we get them from readers, it very often starts with Maybe it's just me, and the answer is no. It is not just you.

00:00:45:16 - 00:00:46:17
Wayne Turmel
That's the point.

00:00:46:22 - 00:01:14:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. So if you've been thinking about sending us one for a while, do it. Because not only is there, it's not just you. There's probably also even us that feel the same way. So we're going to start tackling those. I've got two lined up for you and we're going to start with Michael's. And Michael told me on LinkedIn that for him, his pet peeve is meeting canceled meetings, canceled the day of and it's worse if it's an early meeting or the closer the cancellation is to the starting meeting time.

00:01:14:20 - 00:01:17:17
Wayne Turmel
Yes, the answer is yes, right?

00:01:17:19 - 00:01:19:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I feel that, too.

00:01:19:09 - 00:01:30:09
Wayne Turmel
It's interesting because what Michael didn't say is the momentary feeling of relief. And hallelujah, right goes when a meeting is canceled.

00:01:30:14 - 00:01:34:12
Marisa Eikenberry
The introvert in me is like, Oh, thank God.

00:01:34:14 - 00:02:05:10
Wayne Turmel
What I suspect he's referring to is the sense that you have blocked out time on your calendar. And there is something presumably at least as important, likely, more important, that isn't getting done because you have blocked time for this meeting. There's prep time and then the meeting is simply and I think that there are a couple of things that need to go into this because what is it that peeves us off about that?

00:02:05:16 - 00:02:33:19
Wayne Turmel
It's seldom that the meeting is canceled, right? That's that in itself is often, oh, I get an hour of my life back or whatever. It's a couple of things. One is I've wasted all this time. Yeah, prepping or blocking it or not schedule ing something that I could be doing. So there's a productivity waste here. The second thing I think is it's just plain rude.

00:02:33:21 - 00:02:34:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:02:34:15 - 00:03:00:00
Wayne Turmel
Right, right. And depending on if you're crossing time zones and doing different things, it's an inconvenience. So I think there are some things. First of all, your mother probably raised you right. So if something is canceled, apologize, acknowledge the work that's gone into it and give a reason why it's canceled.

00:03:00:02 - 00:03:10:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah. I mean, this week that got moved a couple of times and every time it was crap. I didn't know about this thing. Here's why I need to move it. Okay, No problem.

00:03:10:07 - 00:03:36:01
Wayne Turmel
Most people are reasonable human beings. People will be reasonable about this, assuming two conditions. One is that it is acknowledged and you you don't have to grovel or anything like that. But a simple. I'm really sorry. I know that you prep this. I know that you blocked the other time out. Here's why we had to change or cancel the meeting.

00:03:36:03 - 00:03:36:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:03:36:14 - 00:03:44:21
Wayne Turmel
Because frankly, there's very often a good reason for that. If you are canceling the meeting, they're jolly well, better be a good reason for this.

00:03:45:02 - 00:03:46:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:03:46:08 - 00:04:14:02
Wayne Turmel
And it has to do with a key stakeholder. Can't make it or we're missing certain information or the building caught fire or whatever it is When you cancel, do so with an explanation. As much explanation as you can give, because most people will go, Oh, that makes sense. So that's the first thing. The second thing is whatever business was supposed to be conducted in this meeting obviously did not take place.

00:04:14:04 - 00:04:33:14
Wayne Turmel
How are we going to handle that if it was important enough to hold a meeting? Obviously it's important. Are you going to send the information via an asynchronous form? Right. Are you going to send the PowerPoint or are you going to direct them to where they can get the information that would have been given out in the media?

00:04:33:16 - 00:04:48:14
Wayne Turmel
Right. So that people at least get the value of that. I think it's important that we know is this canceled or is it rescheduled? And approximately when will it be rescheduled? Tell us what the future holds.

00:04:48:16 - 00:04:50:19
Marisa Eikenberry
So we can block that time in our calendar and we.

00:04:50:19 - 00:05:17:01
Wayne Turmel
Can walk that unnecessarily. And I think that's and I know that that doesn't make up for the frustration, particularly, as I say, if you are readjusting your life, not just your your schedule, but your actual life. You know, when I have clients in Europe and I love my European clients very much, but I live on the west coast of the United States, there is no good time.

00:05:17:03 - 00:05:20:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, somebody is going to get inconvenienced either way.

00:05:20:07 - 00:05:42:22
Wayne Turmel
Somebody is going to be inconvenienced and the customer being the customer, it's probably me as it should be now, depending on the time of day, can be a big deal because if I need to be on webcam, for example, I need to be showered and dressed from the waist up and, you know, look reasonable, lay awake and be properly caffeinated.

00:05:43:00 - 00:05:46:16
Wayne Turmel
Well, if I have done that at five in the morning.

00:05:46:18 - 00:05:48:07
Marisa Eikenberry
And you've now canceled.

00:05:48:08 - 00:06:07:06
Wayne Turmel
And it's happened, I mean, I've gotten up at 415 for 5:00 meeting only to check my email and they've canceled meeting. Oof! Congratulations. It's 415 and you're awake and the coffee's on. Well, you know my day. I'm a serious head.

00:06:07:08 - 00:06:27:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I know. For me, like, because the. The nature of what I do, like, I do so much deep work, and there are some times where it's like, I won't plan my deep work. I project work during certain times. This well, I'm going to have a meeting at 10:00 or I'm going to have me, so I'll just do this later and then when it gets canceled, it's just like crap.

00:06:27:17 - 00:06:38:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Like, that was time. I mean, yeah, I theoretically have it back now, but it's like, but now I've scheduled other other stuff around it, so it doesn't really feel like I got that time back, even though I theoretically did.

00:06:38:17 - 00:07:11:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And what you said is really important because you're not just losing the time of the meeting. I'm the same way. If I know, for example, we're recording this today and that's on my my schedule. Well, for the last half hour, I've been doing little things right, right. Deleting stuff from my inbox and, you know, updating some things, but little mindless tasks because I want my head in the game to do this and I don't want to get into something that requires deep thought and then have to stop.

00:07:11:17 - 00:07:14:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. That's that's where I'm at. Right?

00:07:14:12 - 00:07:29:11
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. So what happens is we not just lose call it an hour because that's an easy. Yeah. Framework we know lose that hour we probably misspent a half hour at least.

00:07:29:12 - 00:07:32:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Maybe depending on when the last thing that we got done. Got that.

00:07:32:23 - 00:07:41:11
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. Oh, I got off my call at 930 and the meeting is at ten. I'm not going to jump in and do something major.

00:07:41:12 - 00:07:55:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, yeah. Like I've gotten off meetings. I mean, I end my day like 345. And so there are times that, you know, I'll get done with whatever task that I'm doing it like 330. And I go, Well, what am I to do for 15 minutes? I'm to be honest, I probably go on Facebook because it's like, what am I going to get done in 15 minutes?

00:07:55:06 - 00:07:56:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Not a whole heck of a lot.

00:07:56:08 - 00:08:27:18
Wayne Turmel
And so and here's the thing, though, you do that, nobody cares. The work got done. And this is the thing about remote work. The work the product for the day got done. The fact that you're 15 minutes late, early coming in, leaving, running to target, whatever you're doing is not as important as the fact that the work product, you got an acceptable amount of work product done for the day.

00:08:27:20 - 00:08:34:03
Wayne Turmel
The problem with canceled meetings is that you could have gotten more work product done right now.

00:08:34:03 - 00:08:39:00
Marisa Eikenberry
You know, now those projects have been scheduled on other days because I thought I didn't have it in my calendar today.

00:08:39:01 - 00:09:15:17
Wayne Turmel
Exactly right. So I know, Michael, that this does not assuage the pain. Right. Because it is annoying. But I think if we apologize and recognize the inconvenience, give people some sense of what's next. Right. Are we going to reschedule it for Thursday? Are we going to send out the materials in advance? Tell us what's going to happen as a result of this so that whatever work we were supposed to get done still gets done because the meeting was supposed to accomplish work.

00:09:15:19 - 00:09:25:23
Wayne Turmel
Right. Give people a sense of what's next so that they can plan their life. I think, you know, stuff happens.

00:09:26:01 - 00:09:26:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:09:26:17 - 00:09:33:12
Wayne Turmel
And most people recognize that. But, you know, we can take the sting out of it a little bit.

00:09:33:14 - 00:09:51:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and I think, too, because I have also heard this where, you know, you have a meeting that, well, maybe it might happen, but maybe it won't happen. But it's not like we're canceling it because, you know, that was caught on fire or something like that. It's just like, I don't know if I'm going to have it or not cancel it like earlier rather than later if the day before.

00:09:51:07 - 00:09:54:09
Marisa Eikenberry
You're like, I don't know if we need to have it, cancel it.

00:09:54:10 - 00:10:00:11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I think periodically, you know, asking yourself, do we need to have this meeting at all?

00:10:00:17 - 00:10:02:03
Marisa Eikenberry
And that's an important question to ask.

00:10:02:08 - 00:10:13:01
Wayne Turmel
And can it be done in another fashion? If everybody comes in to the office Tuesdays and Wednesdays, maybe we'll just do a Wednesday when everybody's here.

00:10:13:03 - 00:10:18:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Or I don't really need a status update because we technically talked the other day like we can just cancel this meeting.

00:10:18:16 - 00:10:25:12
Wayne Turmel
And if you have a decent reporting system, status updates are largely unnecessary.

00:10:25:14 - 00:10:27:22
Marisa Eikenberry
That too.

00:10:28:00 - 00:10:29:00
Wayne Turmel
What's your next question?

00:10:29:04 - 00:10:33:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. So our next one is from Lourdes. I'm hope I'm pronouncing that right.

00:10:33:12 - 00:10:34:15
Wayne Turmel
Gorgeous.

00:10:34:17 - 00:10:55:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Thank you. And it says, if you're collaborating across time zones, global or country specific organizing meetings or expecting response, is it convenient times where headquarters are based with little regard of how late or early in the day it might be for other remote locations? Slack and Outlook have a send delay option for a good reason and she added a very nice little emoji.

00:10:55:04 - 00:11:11:11
Marisa Eikenberry
I did ask for a little bit more detail and I go, okay, what's the worst that you've ever seen for this? Like, what does that look like for you? And she said, the worst times that she's ever seen were 5 a.m. for a meeting or between 9 p.m. and midnight for time zones outside of headquarters.

00:11:11:13 - 00:11:19:06
Wayne Turmel
People who live in headquarters forget what they learned about eighth grade physics.

00:11:19:07 - 00:11:20:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay?

00:11:20:05 - 00:11:27:12
Wayne Turmel
And they don't realize that the sun does not revolve around their particular building.

00:11:27:14 - 00:11:28:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:11:28:23 - 00:11:33:11
Wayne Turmel
People on the east coast of the United States are particularly bad at this.

00:11:33:13 - 00:11:36:07
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, we are particularly bad at this even as an organization.

00:11:36:10 - 00:11:38:17
Wayne Turmel
Well, but we're not. We're not. Here's the thing.

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:39:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00:11:39:15 - 00:11:44:21
Wayne Turmel
Indianapolis is on. Indy is in Indiana, which is in the Eastern.

00:11:44:21 - 00:11:45:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Time.

00:11:45:08 - 00:12:12:00
Wayne Turmel
Zone. We have trucks in the Mountain Time zone, Arizona. Nobody knows what time it is in Arizona ever because of gas and switching. Right. And I'm on the West Coast. I'm an early bird when Kevin's schedule's like our team meetings first Friday of every month. It's 7:00 in the morning for me. But that was negotiated fair, right? That is the latest that I usually start my day.

00:12:12:04 - 00:12:19:01
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, I'll often have a t shirt and a baseball cap on because I won't have showered, but everybody knows me and that doesn't matter.

00:12:19:04 - 00:12:20:14
Marisa Eikenberry
And it's a TV call in.

00:12:20:14 - 00:12:22:12
Wayne Turmel
The morning doesn't bother me.

00:12:22:15 - 00:12:22:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:12:23:04 - 00:12:58:02
Wayne Turmel
Now, as I say, if I'm talking to somebody in London. Right, that's a different that's a different animal. Or if you're talking to somebody in Asia-Pacific, that can get complicated. But the default very often is whatever time the headquarters is in, everybody synchronizes their clocks accordingly. And that shouldn't be necessarily the norm unless it's absolutely mandatory. You know, if you've got a call center in Manila, yeah, it probably used to be when your customers in the U.S. are awake.

00:12:58:04 - 00:12:59:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:12:59:03 - 00:13:19:21
Wayne Turmel
Right. There are some things that just make sense in terms of workflow. But there are two things I think. One is look for peak times, right? Hey, if I have to stay an hour later than usual to do a call, and that's not all the time. Yeah, I'll take one for the team. It's not a big deal.

00:13:19:23 - 00:13:21:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, once in a while it's.

00:13:21:00 - 00:13:41:07
Wayne Turmel
Fine if you feel like you are constantly being imposed upon and unnecessarily so, that can lead to disengagement and disgruntlement and all of that kind of negative stuff because it just feels like your needs are secondary to everybody else's.

00:13:41:13 - 00:14:01:19
Marisa Eikenberry
So when this happens, I mean, who needs to be the one to raise the flag? Is it the person who's being super inconvenienced needs to go talk to their manager, or does the leader need to realize, Hey, I might be in New York, but my team is in Spain and I'm asking them to be on a call at a time that's not great for them.

00:14:02:01 - 00:14:18:11
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that's the thing, right? I know that for me, when I led a team and it was an international team, I tended to take one for the team. Unless the majority of the people on the call were in a single time.

00:14:18:11 - 00:14:20:05
Marisa Eikenberry
So that makes sense to try to get as.

00:14:20:05 - 00:14:45:09
Wayne Turmel
Many of the person. If it's just me in that person, I will generally take one for the team and do it when it's convenient for them. That is one of those dark side of servant leadership things that we've talked about though, where if you've got five team members outside of your time zone and so you're starting at five in the morning and finishing at eight at night, that ain't good.

00:14:45:11 - 00:14:47:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, you need to take care of you too.

00:14:47:11 - 00:15:17:18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So everybody needs to communicate that. I think one of the things that is very helpful besides just asking people, when would you like to hold this meeting so that it's not killing you? That would be good, right? Just ask people what works Every once in a while, though. Toss them a bone. You know, maybe people in the New York office need to suck it up and, you know, take a morning call or stay a little bit later.

00:15:17:23 - 00:15:41:00
Wayne Turmel
And the thing is, the way that we work now, it's not like if I have an 8:00 call, I have to work every minute up till 8:00. We live in a time flexible world. If you're you know, if you work till 2:00 and you've got a call at 8:00 at night, go to the gym, have dinner with the family circle back and join when you when you need to.

00:15:41:02 - 00:16:06:16
Wayne Turmel
I think what Lord is, is addressing is this kind of home office bias, which literally leads to thoughtless behavior and thoughtless, not in the sense of you're a miserable, horrible human being. It's that you literally didn't think about it. So when you have people in different time zones confer with them, find out what works, Do they like early morning?

00:16:06:19 - 00:16:11:10
Wayne Turmel
Do they like evening? How does this impact their workday?

00:16:11:12 - 00:16:21:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and to your point, even just from the last question, does it need to be a meeting at all? Could this be done asynchronously, which would probably benefit all of them?

00:16:21:17 - 00:16:32:23
Wayne Turmel
And we're living in a world where literally with the push of a button, you are recording transcripts, ing and translating your meetings.

00:16:33:01 - 00:16:33:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:16:34:01 - 00:16:44:02
Wayne Turmel
So if it's an informational meeting where you're basically giving information, maybe somebody doesn't have to be up at midnight.

00:16:44:04 - 00:16:44:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, maybe.

00:16:44:20 - 00:16:45:09
Wayne Turmel
That be that.

00:16:45:11 - 00:17:02:06
Marisa Eikenberry
A meeting, it could be a video. If if it's truly just I'm going to give information and then people can ask questions. I've seen people use loom or other software to just record a video and then send it out and then, hey, watch this video. If you have questions, let me know.

00:17:02:08 - 00:17:15:12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So there are ways to do this. Technology allows us to do that, but have conversations with people. What works, what doesn't? Do they mind? You know, what is their body clock tell you?

00:17:15:14 - 00:17:16:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:17:16:02 - 00:17:37:20
Wayne Turmel
Somebody to attend those things. You should know that anyway if you're hiring people outside of your time's up. So you know, what is their preference? Can they be accommodated or are there alternatives to those meetings? And by the way, every once in a while toss them a bone and schedule when it's good for them and everybody else has to suck it up.

00:17:37:20 - 00:17:42:04
Wayne Turmel
And when they complain, you go, yes, that's the point.

00:17:42:06 - 00:17:51:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's always, always been, you know, missing dinner for this. You can miss dinner once a while.

00:17:51:04 - 00:17:52:19
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. Yeah.

00:17:52:21 - 00:18:10:07
Marisa Eikenberry
So I just want to thank both of our listeners for sending in these questions. I'm so excited that we got to tackle these today and we have a few more, but we would love to answer your questions too, so please make sure to send those to us. Thank you for listening to Log. This is work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources.

00:18:10:07 - 00:18:31:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit longdistanceworklife.com if you haven't yet. Subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes while you're there. Be sure to like in review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our Shownotes let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic or pet peeve for Wayne and I to tackle on a future episode.

00:18:32:01 - 00:18:44:15
Marisa Eikenberry
And if you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry’s new book, The Long-Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team Book.com. Thanks for joining us. It is Wayne. Like say don't let the weasels get you down.

00:18:44:17 - 00:18:48:14
Wayne Turmel
Darn weasels.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
02:05 Frustrations with Canceled Meetings
06:07 Impact on Work Productivity
09:15 Time Zone Challenges
12:12 Inconvenient Meeting Times
15:14 Asynchronous Communication
18:10 Conclusion

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