Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Working Remotely

Is Giving Up Your Desk the Future of Hybrid Work?

The idea of giving up your personal desk—does it make you cringe or cheer? Many organizations are moving toward a hoteling model to save costs and accommodate hybrid work, but making it work smoothly is another story.

In this episode, Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry tackle the challenges of hoteling, from loss of control and hygiene concerns to desk wars and office politics. Plus, they offer practical solutions for leaders to involve employees, test the model, and ensure a smoother transition.

Thanks to listener Benjamin for inspiring this conversation! If your organization is considering hoteling, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways

1. Understand the Purpose of Hoteling – Hoteling is a flexible seating arrangement where employees don’t have assigned desks, allowing companies to optimize office space while accommodating hybrid work schedules.

2. Address Employee Concerns Proactively – Employees may feel uneasy about losing their personal space, dealing with hygiene concerns, or setting up/breaking down their workstations daily. Leaders should acknowledge these concerns and create solutions in advance.

3. Create a Comfortable and Hygienic Workspace – Provide cleaning supplies, encourage good desk etiquette, and ensure employees have access to sanitized and well-maintained shared workspaces.

4. Equip Employees for Success – Reduce daily setup stress by offering lockers, duplicate equipment (mice, keyboards, monitors), and designated storage areas so employees don’t have to carry everything back and forth.

5. Involve Teams in the Transition – Instead of enforcing top-down changes, engage employees in discussions about hoteling logistics, scheduling, and workspace preferences. Address concerns before implementation.

6. Test Before Committing – Pilot the hoteling model for a limited time before making it permanent. Gather feedback and make necessary adjustments based on employee experiences.

7. Balance Cost-Savings with Employee Needs – While reducing office space saves money, organizations must also invest in tools, processes, and amenities that make shared workspaces efficient and employee-friendly.

8. Recognize Routine Disruptions & Help Teams Adapt – Change is hard, and employees may struggle with losing familiar setups. Help them establish new habits by creating structured, predictable hoteling systems.

9. Encourage Open Communication – Employees should feel comfortable sharing feedback and proposing adjustments to the hoteling system to ensure it works effectively for everyone.

10. Remember, Adaptation Takes Time – While initial resistance is natural, teams will eventually develop new habits and find stability in the hoteling environment. Patience and flexibility are key!

View Full Transcript

00;00;00;03 - 00;00;20;13
Marisa Eikenberry
Because the idea of giving up your desk for more remote flexibility make you cringe or cheer. Many organizations are grappling with this exact dilemma. If you're considering a hotel model to save money and embrace hybrid work, you're not alone. But how do you make it work for everyone involved?

00;00;20;15 - 00;00;36;11
Marisa Eikenberry
You. Welcome back to long distance Workplace. We help you live, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Russell. I can be a fellow remote worker. And as always, joining me as my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Trammell. Hi, Wayne.

00;00;36;14 - 00;00;40;17
Wayne Turmel
As always, because there's no escape. He's freaking everywhere.

00;00;40;19 - 00;00;45;00
Marisa Eikenberry
But we are always here. We live in the computer.

00;00;45;03 - 00;00;48;24
Wayne Turmel
Indeed. We live in this little box. Hello.

00;00;48;26 - 00;01;12;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, today we are actually inspired by a listener question. And today we're diving into the challenges of transitioning to a hotel and model while supporting employees who want flexibility through remote work. So, Benjamin, the person who sent us this question, thank you so much for your thoughtful email that led us to this, the situation that many organizations are navigating as they rethink office spaces and work styles.

00;01;12;23 - 00;01;21;02
Marisa Eikenberry
So we're really, really excited to get into this. But, Wayne, for some of our listeners that may not be familiar. Can we just do a quick definition of what hotel room is?

00;01;21;06 - 00;01;44;09
Wayne Turmel
It's a weird word. I don't know how it became the word. I think it's it's kind of the mental model of staying in a hotel versus having a space of your permanent space of your own, right? That when you check into a hotel, you don't know which room you're getting. You don't really know. I mean, Hamptons all look alike, right?

00;01;44;09 - 00;01;56;12
Wayne Turmel
But but it's not your. And it's not your room. There are things that you can do in a hotel room. There are things that you shouldn't do in a hotel room because it's not your space.

00;01;56;15 - 00;01;56;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;01;57;02 - 00;02;28;04
Wayne Turmel
And I think it's as good a word as any, but it does. It's funny. It creates far more drama than we think it should. And I'll give you the example. And not everybody will relate to this, but I do, which is I grew up in a small town, went to a small town church, and while in churches there are no assigned seats per se, everybody knows where Mrs. Williams sits, right?

00;02;28;06 - 00;02;30;14
Marisa Eikenberry
And God forbid, literally.

00;02;30;16 - 00;02;56;02
Wayne Turmel
That's you take that spot at your peril. So even though officially you sit anywhere you want, everybody has their pew. They sit in the same place every week. They sit there, they're comfortable there. They are close enough or far enough from the pastor's burning eyes. They are easy access to the exits out. Whatever you're.

00;02;56;02 - 00;02;57;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Praying.

00;02;57;05 - 00;03;30;21
Wayne Turmel
For. Choosing a seat in church. And while there are no official seats, when somebody is in your seat, it gets really uncomfortable and that's the best analogy that I can come up with. So the way that hotel I usually works is rather than, you know, there's a cube farm and you everybody has a seat assigned to them because, you know, it's Tuesday and only have two people come in on Tuesday.

00;03;30;27 - 00;04;04;21
Wayne Turmel
We have just slightly over more than half of the normal number of desks, and people kind of grab whatever's open and they set up and they do their work, and then they go home. And on paper that sounds extremely reasonable. And what's the big deal? The problem is you are dealing with human beings who are notoriously irrational. And so there are a couple of reasons that people get freaked out about this.

00;04;04;23 - 00;04;12;05
Wayne Turmel
And as with everything with people when I say them, a lot of people are going to go, that's not a big deal.

00;04;12;07 - 00;04;14;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Except it's a big deal.

00;04;14;18 - 00;04;49;09
Wayne Turmel
Human being. Humans are going to human. Yeah. So some of it is a simple matter of lack of control. When I come in, I like what I like. I like the view out the window. I like to see the coffee break room. I want my back to the coffee break room. Whatever it is we we have basically a set of esthetics that we like when we work and when we don't have control over that, that becomes a thing.

00;04;49;11 - 00;04;55;21
Wayne Turmel
There are a few other things, some of which make no difference to me, but they might.

00;04;55;22 - 00;04;56;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Just somebody.

00;04;56;07 - 00;05;16;18
Wayne Turmel
They are going to make differences to somebody, one of which is hygiene concerns. Okay. I don't know who was at this desk last. I don't know what cooties they had. I don't know what their personal hygiene is like. God only knows what they've done to that keyboard.

00;05;16;20 - 00;05;18;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Lysol was everywhere.

00;05;18;22 - 00;05;45;04
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, exactly. So part of if you're going to bring in a hotel situation is you need to make sure that you have things like sterile wipes at every desk and bottles of Lysol and those types of things. Because while I'm pretty much, I mean, I, I clean up after myself. I'm not a complete slob, but that's not top of mind for me.

00;05;45;04 - 00;05;48;20
Wayne Turmel
It's going to be top of mind for some people, right?

00;05;48;22 - 00;05;55;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I'm with you. It's not a big deal for me. But like, now that you said it, it's like, oh yeah, okay, I can see it now.

00;05;55;12 - 00;06;16;29
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, especially because the whole reason most of us wound up working from home was cooties. And so it's going to be part of the thinking, another thing is that and again, it sounds minor and it's really not, which is you need to set up and break down every day.

00;06;17;01 - 00;06;27;21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. And oh, God, I forgot the my specific pens that I really like to bring or I forgot my mouse. I've done that before and that sucks.

00;06;27;23 - 00;06;58;20
Wayne Turmel
Oh, we've all done it. And you know this idea of okay, so now I'm schlepping to the office, so I've got my backpack, which now has my laptop and my mouse and whatever else in there. It's just a bigger deal every day. Getting ready to go to work is more hassle. It takes time to set up. It takes time to break down at the end of the day, you've got to put that backpack on, which now somehow weighs 20 pounds more than it did when you came in in the morning.

00;06;58;22 - 00;07;13;15
Wayne Turmel
So there's what is this do to your day? What does this do to the setup? Right. And so some of that may be a loss of productivity. I'm not using my mouse.

00;07;13;17 - 00;07;15;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. My horse or whatever.

00;07;15;29 - 00;07;52;26
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And there are simple ways to avoid this, right. Duplicate mice. Right. One at home, one at the office. So, so this is a thing that organizations can do, and it's not quite kindergarten. Everybody has their own cubby. But I think that lockers where people can keep their equipment, that meant that they use in the office so that you don't have to schlep it back and forth so that you can have duplicates so that it's already there, and you can very easily set it up.

00;07;52;29 - 00;08;11;07
Wayne Turmel
We'll actually take some of this strain off. It's going to require developing new routines and developing new socks. We all know that. But, you know, things like that can make it less awkward and weird.

00;08;11;09 - 00;08;14;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;08;14;29 - 00;08;43;03
Wayne Turmel
One of the one of the reasons that people don't like it as well is, you know, when I have my desk, I've got a picture of my wife and kids or, you know, Mr. Whiskers in a holiday outfit and there's stuff on my desk that is mine, and that's not going to be there, you know? Right. Situation, you know.

00;08;43;03 - 00;08;49;21
Wayne Turmel
And what are the rules around personalization and what can you do?

00;08;49;24 - 00;08;55;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. You're not necessarily sitting at the same desk every time where you can have that kind of stuff.

00;08;56;00 - 00;09;00;27
Wayne Turmel
Well, and you know there are drawers. What do we keep in the drawers.

00;09;00;29 - 00;09;07;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah. It's like, you know, there's storage or whatever is mine.

00;09;07;08 - 00;09;24;13
Wayne Turmel
Is there. So we need to address those. And, and this means we need to address them far in advance of it being an issue. So how these conversations need to be had before the magic wand is waved.

00;09;24;16 - 00;09;45;14
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, that's exactly where I was getting to is like, what are some ways that leaders can involve employees in the process? You've talked about some ways that, you know, they can already, think about doing stuff like Lysol and having cubbies for stuff and all that. But like, what kinds of things should they be doing to involve their employees in the process of doing this?

00;09;45;16 - 00;10;09;00
Wayne Turmel
There is a huge conversation which will be uncomfortable and is going to make a lot of people feel weird. But here's the thing everybody wants their desk, but they only want to be added a couple of days a week. Well, what this means in the long run is that the organization is paying for space that is not being used right.

00;10;09;02 - 00;10;34;25
Wayne Turmel
One of the things driving the return to office is the CEO comes out of her office and looks around at all this stuff that is costing X dollars per square foot and nobody is there. And so the organization is paying for space, equipment, things that they are not getting a return on. This is a legitimate concern.

00;10;34;28 - 00;10;35;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Absolutely.

00;10;35;22 - 00;10;36;25
Wayne Turmel
They're not doing their money's worth.

00;10;36;26 - 00;10;38;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;10;38;08 - 00;11;09;06
Wayne Turmel
Why are we paying for three floors in a building if we could arrange our schedule, accommodate everybody two days a week, and not have to pay for all that square footage, that is a legit business conversation, right? And employees need to care. Because if it comes down to we're paying for all this space and the employees are whining, right?

00;11;09;08 - 00;11;17;20
Wayne Turmel
Whining loose, right? It needs to be a discussion about mutual benefits and concerns.

00;11;17;23 - 00;11;20;04
Marisa Eikenberry
So how can they manage some of that?

00;11;20;09 - 00;11;38;21
Wayne Turmel
Well, again, it's here are the reasons we want to go to hotel. You have said you only want to come in occasionally. You only want to come in a couple of days a week. And we can arrange this so that we clearly don't need this many desks.

00;11;38;29 - 00;11;40;02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;11;40;05 - 00;12;11;03
Wayne Turmel
And you have concerns about privacy in this in that. So how do we address that? And there needs to be a real harsh conversation around what's negotiable and what's not negotiable. If you've decided as a group of employees, two days a week in the office is plenty, you can't complain about the fact that some of the things that we are paying for are going to go away, right?

00;12;11;03 - 00;12;16;12
Marisa Eikenberry
It's like it's the consequences of the things that you want, right? It's like you can have your cake and eat it too.

00;12;16;14 - 00;12;48;19
Wayne Turmel
So which do you want more? And that just needs to be a real, honest conversation. And some organizations are much better about that than others right now. Maybe this can be done on a team basis if your office is set up so that, you know, this bullpen is salespeople and this group of people are admins. And however that set up, as a team, talk about what do we need?

00;12;48;21 - 00;12;50;19
Marisa Eikenberry


00;12;50;21 - 00;13;10;16
Wayne Turmel
You also need to prioritize what is important to you. Do you need a window? Okay. Some people do. Some people they need daylight. They need vitamin D. They need to be able to when they're thinking look out the window. Other people get distracted by looking.

00;13;10;16 - 00;13;11;16
Marisa Eikenberry
At the right.

00;13;11;18 - 00;13;33;16
Wayne Turmel
Do you want to be near the bathroom? Do you not want to be near the bathroom? Those types of things, because on a small team, often we self-select anyway. Right. If I'm in Monday and Wednesday and you're in Tuesday and Thursday and we decide we're going to share a desk and nobody else cares, great. There's your answer, right?

00;13;33;18 - 00;13;36;16
Marisa Eikenberry
That makes it easy.

00;13;36;18 - 00;13;43;17
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, if you can do that on a team basis, it's certainly going to be easier.

00;13;43;19 - 00;14;10;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Well, and I could see to the idea of, you know, this group is needs quiet work to do or quieter or work to do something. Yeah, you're web developers or something like that. Whereas you know, your sales team or your marketing team, they might be louder, but, you know, so it's like, is there a sound issue also to consider about where they sent me office, or that these two teams should not come in on the same day or whatever?

00;14;10;06 - 00;14;40;09
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. There are ways to address this. Maybe conference rooms is the answer, right? Right. There are rooms for conversation. Take advantage of those. Yeah. So these are the kinds of things that you need to consider. And I would suggest just as individuals what's important to you. Right. Think about what is your routine. What is your daily routine look like when you go to the office?

00;14;40;09 - 00;14;41;27
Wayne Turmel
What is important to you?

00;14;41;29 - 00;14;44;02
Marisa Eikenberry


00;14;44;05 - 00;14;54;14
Wayne Turmel
And then talk to your teammates and say, hey, I really, really like the idea of the window. Do you mind if I have that.

00;14;54;17 - 00;14;58;06
Marisa Eikenberry
You know, and then fight to the death if you need to.

00;14;58;08 - 00;15;05;26
Wayne Turmel
You know, it's it's a great it's a great team building exercise to have gladiator battles in the middle of the year.

00;15;05;27 - 00;15;08;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Certainly.

00;15;08;15 - 00;15;09;17
Wayne Turmel
A lot of this.

00;15;09;18 - 00;15;11;02
Marisa Eikenberry
The story. Oh.

00;15;11;04 - 00;15;18;12
Wayne Turmel
Well, just a lot of this is boils down to a cultural resistance to change.

00;15;18;14 - 00;15;20;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Which is going to happen no matter what you do.

00;15;20;27 - 00;15;50;05
Wayne Turmel
Which is going to happen. It's going to be awkward and weird. The more we discuss it, the more we recognize what the stressors are. Right. What is it that you're concerned about. Right. And then how do we address it. I always come back to an example in the early days of Covid that I was talking to to a team, and this almost became equitable issue.

00;15;50;07 - 00;15;51;14
Marisa Eikenberry
Wow. Okay.

00;15;51;16 - 00;16;12;17
Wayne Turmel
Is they made somebody said they made me come home and I've got my laptop, I have this big tower and a desk and a keyboard and multiple screens, and it's great at work. And I came home and I've got this stupid little laptop and this little rubber dealy that I'm supposed to use instead of a mouse. And I said, well, why don't you just buy a mouse?

00;16;12;17 - 00;16;14;26
Marisa Eikenberry
They're like, right, that would be.

00;16;14;28 - 00;16;47;05
Wayne Turmel
Their $9 at Walgreens. You know, just buy one. And his issue was, I shouldn't have to be out of pocket to do work for them when this change is being driven by them. And I get, okay, I can see that. Have you talked to your manager about this? Yes. Well, the policy is the manager is sticking by the policy that we don't pay for equipment that's not being used in the office.

00;16;47;08 - 00;16;56;26
Wayne Turmel
And so there's a showdown over a $9 mouse. Now, is the $9 mouse really the issue?

00;16;56;28 - 00;16;57;23
Marisa Eikenberry
No.

00;16;57;25 - 00;17;18;04
Wayne Turmel
No, it's you are asking me to work in a certain way, and you are not giving me what I require to do my job. So you are adding to my inconvenience. And oh, by the way, it's costing me money that I don't want to pay for something that I don't want to do, right.

00;17;18;07 - 00;17;21;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. The underlying issue that nobody really wants to say.

00;17;21;21 - 00;17;48;10
Wayne Turmel
So this is going to get to, you know what? You're saving $2,500 a month on square footage, spring for lockers, spring for duplicate duplicate equipment. So people have mice at their desk. Maybe there is a camera at every desk that people can use when they're there, and they don't have to break down their own camera and bring it to work every day.

00;17;48;12 - 00;18;11;04
Wayne Turmel
It's so often we have said, it's the little things, right? It's the thousand little pinpricks that lead to war, that have a pebble in your shoe that if you can handle those, make the larger issues much easier to discuss and deal with.

00;18;11;06 - 00;18;30;09
Marisa Eikenberry
And so before we wrap up, I do have one last question for you, but it's so for organizations who are thinking about trying hotel and and maybe they've, you know, not done that previously, what kinds of things that they can do to like pilot these programs, test and fine tune and roll them out to their teams. Like, I guess first steps.

00;18;30;11 - 00;18;40;17
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Well, you use the word pilot before a policy. It's like literally, let's try this for two months and see how it works.

00;18;40;19 - 00;18;42;01
Marisa Eikenberry


00;18;42;03 - 00;18;56;02
Wayne Turmel
Rather than this is what we are going to do. And if you don't like it or you make the wrong choice or you think you want to be near the bathroom and you find that too distracting, sucks to be you, right?

00;18;56;02 - 00;18;58;20
Marisa Eikenberry
You make your choice. Now you have to live with it, right?

00;18;58;22 - 00;19;14;24
Wayne Turmel
Know people don't always know what they're choosing, and they may decide. And we may decide that, you know what, the same people take the same hotel desks all the time. And it really, after the initial chaos, isn't that big a deal.

00;19;14;26 - 00;19;16;22
Marisa Eikenberry


00;19;16;25 - 00;19;24;24
Wayne Turmel
Right. I'm working with the same people every Tuesday and Tuesday we show up and we go to the desk. We always go to a, nobody has an issue with it.

00;19;24;27 - 00;19;27;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. You get used to it.

00;19;27;10 - 00;19;40;26
Wayne Turmel
So identify the barriers, address or mitigate as many of them as you can. Make it easy for people to hotel.

00;19;40;29 - 00;19;43;26
Marisa Eikenberry


00;19;43;29 - 00;20;05;22
Wayne Turmel
And then try it and see what works and what you need to fix. You need to fix and you will eventually settle into a rhythm that works for you. Human beings like routine. We, you know when our routines get disrupted we freak out. When do we stop freaking out? When we have established a new routine.

00;20;05;24 - 00;20;10;11
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Which I mean, really is also where some of this boils down to to begin with.

00;20;10;11 - 00;20;28;06
Wayne Turmel
And and there's a paradox here. On the one hand, this is not as momentous or even insane a change as it feels like. And at some point you will get over it and deal with it.

00;20;28;08 - 00;20;28;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;20;28;27 - 00;20;43;20
Wayne Turmel
On the other hand, to diminish or to discount the very real feelings that people have, only make it harder to reach that new, that new rhythm and that new norm.

00;20;43;22 - 00;20;58;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. Wayne, thank you so much for this conversation. I really hope that it was helpful for our listeners. And I know I learned a lot more about hotel later. Hot desking or you know whatever, whatever other name remote work wants to start calling it. Right.

00;20;58;24 - 00;21;06;10
Wayne Turmel
Well, it's so funny because the terminology changes all the time. I mean, hot desking. Who does that sound like? Fun.

00;21;06;12 - 00;21;24;26
Marisa Eikenberry
I was going to say. I think that's what we called it last year. I, we did a whole episode about. I'll have to link it in the show notes. So at first it was like, wait, what's hotel? And I know Hot Desk, who knows? So listeners, you may be listening to this a year or so from now and have no idea what we're talking about.

00;21;24;29 - 00;21;30;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Or it's called something else. So it just goes to show how fast things are changing. But before we go.

00;21;31;00 - 00;21;45;00
Wayne Turmel
But tell us what what are your thoughts on this? I mean, we're sitting here being all very wise on the mountain. Here are the things you can do. What's your experience? Yeah. And what's worked for you and what hasn't. Tell us.

00;21;45;03 - 00;22;06;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Yes, absolutely. We would love to share your thoughts and your questions. On another episode. But before we go, I do want to say that we're very excited to share the second edition of The Long Distance Leader. It's now available, and this updated guide is packed with actionable strategies to help you lead effectively in today's remote and hybrid environments.

00;22;06;12 - 00;22;32;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Don't wait. Order your copy at long distance work life.com/ldl and take your leadership skills to the next level. And thank you for listening to the long distance work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources, make sure to visit Long Distance worklife.com if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe so you never miss a future one. And while you're at it, leave us a rating or review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this.

00;22;32;06 - 00;22;48;10
Marisa Eikenberry
It's quick and it helps us reach even more listeners just like you. And we would also love to hear from you, as Wayne already said. So reach out to us via email or LinkedIn using the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00;22;48;17 - 00;23;06;20
Marisa Eikenberry
We would love to hear from you. And again to Benjamin, who sent this in. Thank you so much for reaching out to us so that we could have this conversation. And before we go, as Wayne likes to say, don't let the whistles get you down.

00;23;06;22 - 00;23;07;13
Marisa Eikenberry
Thank you.


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:48 A listener question sparks today’s topic
01:21 What is hoteling? A quick definition
02:28 Why losing your assigned seat feels so personal
05:55 Hygiene concerns: Should you trust a shared desk?
07:16 Setup & breakdown: The hassle of moving every day
09:45 The business case: Why companies are pushing hoteling
12:11 The trade-offs of office space reduction
14:40 How teams can self-organize for smoother transitions
17:48 Small frustrations that create major workplace tensions
18:30 How to pilot a hoteling program before rolling it out
20:43 Final thoughts

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Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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Ask Wayne Anything, Technology, Working Remotely

Breaking Free from Screen Fatigue: A Guide to Digital Detox

Are screens taking over your life? In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, hosts Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel dive into the growing issue of screen fatigue and explore how remote workers can break free from digital overload. Learn about the physical and mental toll of excessive screen time, why our brains crave those dopamine hits, and how to set boundaries for healthier habits. From practical tips like setting screen-free zones to embracing old-school tools (hello, paper planners!), this conversation is packed with actionable strategies to help you reclaim balance in your remote work life.

Key Takeaways

1. Define Screen Fatigue: Recognize that screen fatigue involves both physical strain (eye fatigue, disrupted sleep from blue light) and mental exhaustion from constant input and dopamine-driven habits.

2. Set Clear Screen Break Goals: Decide specific times or durations for breaks, such as “no screens for 15 minutes,” instead of vague promises like “less screen time.”

3. Create Screen-Free Zones: Establish boundaries like no screens at the dinner table, during family time, or in the bedroom to reinforce healthy habits.

4. Limit Notifications: Turn off unnecessary alerts to reduce distractions and the urge to check your devices. Fewer dings mean less stress and temptation.

5. Reduce Blue Light Exposure: Use tools like night mode on devices, dim lighting, or e-ink screens to minimize eye strain, especially in the evening.

6. Incorporate Offline Activities: Replace screen time with activities like reading paper books, going for walks, or engaging in chores to refresh your mind and body.

7. Practice Intentional Device Use: Avoid using screens as your default downtime activity. Try alternatives like music or silent walks to give your brain a genuine rest.

8. No Screens Before Bedtime: Commit to at least 30 minutes of screen-free time before sleeping to help your brain wind down and improve sleep quality.

9. Use Technology Wisely: If you rely on tech (like a Kindle), explore settings to reduce blue light and adjust brightness for less strain during necessary use.

10. Develop New Habits Gradually: Don’t go “cold turkey.” Instead, build sustainable habits over time by integrating small changes consistently into your routine.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;29 - 00;00;29;18
Speaker 1
Do you ever feel like screens are running your life? The constant thing. Back to back meetings and endless hours. Staring at a screen can leave you drained and unfocused. But what if you could take back control of your day? Welcome back to Long Distance Worklife, where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, fellow remote worker, and as always, joining me is my co-host, Wayne Turmel.

00;00;29;23 - 00;00;32;03
Speaker 2
That would be me. Hi. How are you?

00;00;32;05 - 00;00;34;19
Speaker 1
I'm great. How are you?

00;00;34;22 - 00;00;40;14
Speaker 2
I'm. Well, it's, It's good. It's. We're heading into the holiday season as we record this.

00;00;40;16 - 00;00;44;16
Speaker 1
Right. And I think it'll be January when it comes out, so.

00;00;44;18 - 00;00;52;19
Speaker 2
So everybody in a fetal position, after having survived. Horrible for.

00;00;52;21 - 00;00;52;29
Speaker 1
My.

00;00;53;03 - 00;01;01;28
Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah. Well, the only way you're going to be refreshed is if you actually get downtime. Which leads us to right.

00;01;02;01 - 00;01;22;17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Today we're actually going to talk about screen fatigue and digital detoxing and what it is and how you can break free from the cycle to feel more balanced in your remote work life, which is something we would all aspire to have. So, Wayne, why don't we just start off with the basic definition of what is screen fatigue?

00;01;22;23 - 00;01;25;10
Speaker 1
How does it manifest to remote work settings?

00;01;25;12 - 00;01;58;16
Speaker 2
Well, screen fatigue is actually a couple of things. But it basically means we're on screens all the time. And, you know, I'm you're on your phone, you're checking your phone, and then you're staring at a computer monitor, and then you take a break by going downstairs and watching TV, which is basically a larger computer monitor. And then you say, oh, I'm going to go read a book, but it happens to be on a Kindle or a tablet, which is yet another screen.

00;01;58;20 - 00;02;40;01
Speaker 2
Right? And so there are a couple of challenges there. One is physical, staring into a screen all that time. It's not only bad for your eyes, but it is physically draining the blue light that emanates from those screens has actual physical effects on the human body, which we will talk about. The other thing is you're constantly taking in information and input, and if you don't give your brain a break, it becomes mentally and physically exhausting.

00;02;40;04 - 00;02;54;05
Speaker 1
Right? You might actually get kind of, irritable or I know if I've been looking at screens a lot and I've been doing a lot of especially like research or something like I kind of a jerk if I don't, I have a brain.

00;02;54;07 - 00;03;05;15
Speaker 2
And, you know, I mean, for some of us for whom curmudgeon is our default setting, it might be less noticeable. But when Marissa's in a bad mood, the world notices. You're saying.

00;03;05;17 - 00;03;08;10
Speaker 1
Wow.

00;03;08;13 - 00;03;27;17
Speaker 2
So so the fact is that there is this constant bombardment and barrage and intake. And at some point, the only way it's not like, well, I'm going to watch YouTube videos on my phone instead of staring at spreadsheets. Your brain doesn't care.

00;03;27;19 - 00;03;27;28
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;03;27;28 - 00;03;56;13
Speaker 2
What the content is. It's the actual interaction of your eyes and your scrolling finger and your brain with a screen period. Which leads to this notion of a digital detox. And a lot of people kind of take a detox. Well it's not like it's an addiction. It's not alcohol. It's that. But in fact call it what you want.

00;03;56;15 - 00;04;14;04
Speaker 2
It has all the earmarks of an addiction when it goes away your brain responds dopamine neuron receptors. All that good stuff responds in the same way as any bad habit.

00;04;14;06 - 00;04;23;03
Speaker 1
Right, right. Well, I wake up in the morning, you grab your phone. Like what? What are the screens that you gravitate towards without even thinking about it?

00;04;23;05 - 00;04;35;22
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's funny. They have done studies these and found that Farmville, you know, sets off the same dopamine receptors in your brain as cocaine.

00;04;35;24 - 00;04;40;04
Speaker 1
Wow. That is a game I heard about a lot.

00;04;40;06 - 00;04;42;15
Speaker 2
But that's it's changing so quickly.

00;04;42;15 - 00;04;43;10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;04;43;12 - 00;04;53;23
Speaker 2
But Farmville was one of the first where they gamified something 200 points that it actually became addictive. And then, you know, it was Angry Birds and.

00;04;54;00 - 00;04;55;09
Speaker 1
And Candy crush that.

00;04;55;09 - 00;05;05;13
Speaker 2
Yeah. And somehow I have avoided all of those and yet I will twittered doom scroll for hours.

00;05;05;15 - 00;05;09;05
Speaker 1
Right. Well, I'm on this tick tock now. Right. Like you know well.

00;05;09;07 - 00;05;31;23
Speaker 2
And they're all I do not blame the poor coders who are doing this because they are doing what they are requested to do. But the fact of the matter is that all these sites are designed to be addictive. They're designed to play with the pleasure centers of your brain. And let's assume for a moment that you are a superior being.

00;05;31;25 - 00;05;52;03
Speaker 2
And you, I do not fall prey to this. I use my screens for work and other noble purposes. Okay? The fact of the matter is, when you hit send on an email, there is a ping in your brain that goes, yeah, I did something. What else can I do? Oh look, there's another one.

00;05;52;05 - 00;05;53;14
Speaker 1


00;05;53;16 - 00;06;20;05
Speaker 2
And you know this is all not terribly scientific. And yet we know it to be true. So the dopamine and reward systems and the feedback loops from screens are a big part of the problem. That's why every time we say I'm just going to put my phone away and I'm not going to look at it and it's in your hand before you know it.

00;06;20;08 - 00;06;38;18
Speaker 1
Oh yeah. Well, it's why there's that whole thing of, you know, if your phone is your alarm, either a stop or be like, put it in another room, but loud enough, you could still hear it because there's so many people. And I will say, I am also one of these people. This is not, you know, I am one of you.

00;06;38;25 - 00;06;55;26
Speaker 1
But, but like you wake up in the morning and the first thing you do is reach for your phone. And so it's like, if it's not there, you have to physically get up and go get it. Well, now you're already up. Go do something else. Is a bed rotting while watching TikToks? Not that I did that this morning or anything.

00;06;55;28 - 00;07;10;00
Speaker 2
Well, it's funny, one of the people ways that people are breaking this is going back to the future. Everybody remembers those horrible, ugly brown, radio alarm clocks I've.

00;07;10;00 - 00;07;11;25
Speaker 1
Pretty sure my dad still has.

00;07;11;25 - 00;07;39;23
Speaker 2
One side. You're bad. Right? Yes. Well, but here's the thing. That is actually better than your phone for keeping time. Because it's red light. It's not the blue light up your screen every time you pick up your phone and look at it, blue light hits your eyes and your brain, and it messes with your sleep patterns. Where as the red light so is well, I use this as my alarm clock.

00;07;39;26 - 00;07;42;04
Speaker 2
You know, there are alarm clocks, right?

00;07;42;07 - 00;07;48;15
Speaker 1
Correct. Or even, you know, whether you wear apple Watches or whatever, you can have it there too.

00;07;48;17 - 00;08;01;15
Speaker 2
Yeah, but even your Apple Watch emits a blue spectrum light. So I have an actual alarm clock, and then you don't have to have your phone by the bed.

00;08;01;18 - 00;08;02;21
Speaker 1
Very true.

00;08;02;24 - 00;08;24;26
Speaker 2
If it's not by the bed, there's less chance you're going to automatically reach for it. So that's the reason for it. That's the reason we need a digital detox. But it's not that easy because it's the ubiquity of the screen. Like I say, I'm going to stop work for the day, right? What am I going to do?

00;08;25;01 - 00;08;37;19
Speaker 2
I think I'll watch some YouTube videos. Well, that's the same problem, right? Well, staring at the same screen, maybe even the same device. And it's not helping.

00;08;37;21 - 00;08;55;15
Speaker 1
Well, and especially with remote workers too, it's like, you know, if you were in the office, you're in front of your screen, you're doing your thing. Oh, okay. I'm going to go meet with the marketing department. You physically get up and go to a conference room, or you go to a table and you're no longer on your screen because now you're face to face, that doesn't happen anymore.

00;08;55;22 - 00;09;15;09
Speaker 1
So now you're going from, I'm doing all this email and I'm doing all the stuff, and now I'm on zoom, and now I'm having meetings for zoom, and I'm talking to people on slack that I wouldn't have spoken to like that if they were in the office. And there's almost this extended screen time that would not have necessarily happened if we were still in the office.

00;09;15;12 - 00;09;48;10
Speaker 2
Right. And that goes on all day. And then our leisure activities take place on screens. Right? So part of it is what needs to be done. What do we actually need to do. And we've talked about this 100 times on this show about removing the alerts and having a start and an end to your day where you are no longer doing work stuff.

00;09;48;12 - 00;09;50;07
Speaker 1
Well, even break start to.

00;09;50;09 - 00;09;57;02
Speaker 2
Break and taking breaks during the day. But then those breaks can not include other screens.

00;09;57;04 - 00;10;03;18
Speaker 1
100%. Like if you're going to go have lunch, go have lunch and like that's it.

00;10;03;20 - 00;10;29;04
Speaker 2
But some of this is we have four strategies around this, right? We decide, oh, you know we're going to go cold turkey. Well no you're not. Yeah. You are not going to go cold turkey. It doesn't work that way. Your brain is going to torture you and you will eventually crumble and collapse. So how do we overcome this stuff?

00;10;29;04 - 00;10;49;00
Speaker 2
Well, first of all, you need to set clear goals. Why do I need a break? What kind of break do I want? How long a break am I going to take? That kind of thing, right. Because if you say, well, I'm just not going to look at my phone for a while, your brain is going, how long is a while?

00;10;49;04 - 00;10;51;25
Speaker 2
Oh, my God, we might be missing out on something. Yeah.

00;10;51;28 - 00;10;54;18
Speaker 1
No. So it's right there. I could see it.

00;10;54;20 - 00;10;59;07
Speaker 2
Whereas I'm not going to look at my screen for 15 minutes.

00;10;59;10 - 00;11;01;01
Speaker 1


00;11;01;03 - 00;11;16;25
Speaker 2
You might get a little twitchy, but at some point your brain goes it's only 15 minutes and then you will get back to the sweet embrace of the blue light broke. Go off right.

00;11;16;28 - 00;11;30;02
Speaker 2
Having no screen times, areas, you know, the dinner table, no phones at the table.

00;11;30;04 - 00;11;38;00
Speaker 2
I can't tell you how many parents I see in restaurants tell their kids no phones at the table. And yet they're constantly doing this.

00;11;38;02 - 00;11;40;14
Speaker 1
Oh 100% you know.

00;11;40;16 - 00;11;49;05
Speaker 2
So we need to walk it like we talking and having everybody is miserable as you. It's not a bad thing.

00;11;49;07 - 00;12;10;14
Speaker 1
Well and only because, you know the generation that I'm in this whole concept that these darn kids and their darn phones. I'm not saying that we're not on technology all the time. Not saying that. I also tell you, I see more boomers attached to their phones sometimes in certain situations. No offense to you, because that's not the cause.

00;12;10;14 - 00;12;20;10
Speaker 2
We use the phone to expand so we can actually read the menu and probably using it as a hearing aid. So there may be there may be medical reasons. Okay. Smart.

00;12;20;12 - 00;12;31;11
Speaker 1
Like I'm just saying I do see that constantly where it's just like these darn kids and I'm like, my phone's in my purse in another room. You're playing Candy crush while we're talking.

00;12;31;13 - 00;12;44;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, but the idea of a no screen zone or a blue Gatorade, no screen times is a really good and frankly, important way to do.

00;12;44;17 - 00;12;45;08
Speaker 1
Right, to.

00;12;45;10 - 00;12;57;14
Speaker 2
Start to break that habit. And there are alternatives. You know, I don't know if you know, this books used to come on paper and maybe.

00;12;57;15 - 00;13;00;15
Speaker 1
You can use both because I know, I.

00;13;00;19 - 00;13;13;08
Speaker 2
Know because if you're doing both, you're looking at the screen. What I'm saying is if you're going to use reading as a break, activate right. Use a non electronic form.

00;13;13;08 - 00;13;16;19
Speaker 1
It okay.

00;13;16;22 - 00;13;19;14
Speaker 2
Yes I know but your listen I know.

00;13;19;14 - 00;13;44;24
Speaker 1
I have other tech things but I'm not even going to go there because like I mean okay actually no no I'm going to do it. If you have to use a piece of technology for something, Kindle phone, whatever, they're usually are some sort of setting that you can set to reduce the blue light during certain times that automatically kicks in.

00;13;44;26 - 00;14;06;17
Speaker 1
I'm a Kindle reader. I do also read physical books. You know, those of you that are watching can see them behind me. They're constantly they're. But when I have my Kindle on at night, it's on a, you know, lower level, it's on more red light than blue light. It's dimmer. People who have the Kindle Paperwhite, it's the e-ink.

00;14;06;17 - 00;14;25;00
Speaker 1
So it's actually better for your eyes anyway. Like, there's all of these different things that if you if you feel like you need to be on a piece of technology, there are some ways to help, combat some of these eyestrain and other issues in general.

00;14;25;03 - 00;14;36;28
Speaker 2
And there are certain things that just make sense, not only for the blue light, but for the mental stimulation. No screens a half hour before you go to bed.

00;14;37;01 - 00;14;37;26
Speaker 1


00;14;37;29 - 00;15;00;16
Speaker 2
And I realize everybody just got really twitchy because most of our routines is we watch TV until it's time to go to bed. Some people go to bed to turn on the TV and watch some more before it's time to go to bed. At the very least, the ones that are right in front of your face, radiating directly into your brain.

00;15;00;19 - 00;15;30;09
Speaker 2
No phones for a half hour before bedtime, right? Put down your non Paperwhite, Kindle and give yourself a break. You know that's when you brush your teeth and do your ablutions and whatever you need to do before you go to bed, kill the screens and then do your bed routine and your brain will more easily adjust to that.

00;15;30;11 - 00;15;53;22
Speaker 1
Right. Well, and you were talking about, you know, less notifications or no notifications earlier to. With by doing that we will theoretically pick up our phone less anyway because you're not going to have the dings that you're used to. Which let's get real, it's a Pavlov's, you know, dog situation. We hear the ding. And so we pick it up.

00;15;53;24 - 00;16;11;02
Speaker 2
And the lack of a day, I mean, there is nothing there. And my thing is my phone is on vibrate or silent 90% of the time. But then I go, I wonder if anybody's called. Right. So there's so there's that.

00;16;11;04 - 00;16;13;05
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;16;13;07 - 00;16;18;17
Speaker 2
Here's the other thing, though. Don't take your phone when you walk the dog.

00;16;18;19 - 00;16;19;20
Speaker 1


00;16;19;22 - 00;16;42;22
Speaker 2
Get outside when you're doing chores, put on music, do something else. Give your brain, your eyes, your entire physical and actual brain. It's weird to think that doing dishes and emptying the dishwasher and throwing a load in laundry could be a break, but it actually is in many ways.

00;16;42;25 - 00;17;09;05
Speaker 1
Well, and it's funny that you say some of that too. So, there it's been a while since I've seen it, but there was a thing for a while on TikTok where they were, I think they had another word for it, but there were multiple at the time. But this idea of, you know, go on silent walks and it was like a brand new concept for, you know, Gen Z or younger millennials because that's just not what we do.

00;17;09;05 - 00;17;16;11
Speaker 1
And, you know, even as we're talking, it's like, yeah, go, go on a walk without anything, like just listen to the nature.

00;17;16;14 - 00;17;37;26
Speaker 2
It's I can't remember the last time I went for a walk with earphones. And now some of this is I don't have music on my phone, so there's no there's no way to put brain music. But I find if I'm walking the dog or I'm going for a walk and I don't have earbuds in.

00;17;37;28 - 00;17;38;26
Speaker 1


00;17;38;29 - 00;17;48;08
Speaker 2
I hear things, I relax, I get to spy on the neighbors because I overhear conversations. It's really cool.

00;17;48;10 - 00;17;49;00
Speaker 1
Right.

00;17;49;03 - 00;17;58;02
Speaker 2
But yeah, I, I have quit plugging earphones in when I go for walks. For exactly that reason.

00;17;58;04 - 00;18;02;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's just crazy to me. I think it's like a new new phenomenon.

00;18;03;00 - 00;18;33;15
Speaker 2
Listen to your Uncle Wayne. Leave the earbuds. Oh. And, and you got to develop these habits the first time you do it, it's going to be weird. And you're going to not know what to do with yourself. And it takes multiple times of doing something for it to become a habit. And it's important we are. It's funny, we are doing less physical labor than ever before.

00;18;33;15 - 00;19;11;11
Speaker 2
For the most part, human beings work less and our health is impacted by our work. Being seated all the time, being sedentary can't stand exposure to screens. Yes, it's not tarring roofs in the hot sun and it's not, you know, hauling wheelbarrows full of stuff, which is incredibly taxing on the body. But there is, of course, to the way we're working, and especially as we get to the time of year when people do New Year's resolutions, which I try to avoid.

00;19;11;14 - 00;19;32;00
Speaker 2
But if you're doing New Year's resolutions, this is a really good one. Yeah, if you're worried about your health and you're trying to get healthier, this can actually play a really big part in it. And that means don't put your exercise plans solely on your phone.

00;19;32;02 - 00;19;34;28
Speaker 1
Yes.

00;19;35;01 - 00;19;35;10
Speaker 2
It did.

00;19;35;12 - 00;19;38;15
Speaker 1
Print it out. It's okay.

00;19;38;18 - 00;19;42;26
Speaker 2
So here's the thing. Yeah, go old school. You know.

00;19;42;29 - 00;19;45;25
Speaker 1
Paper planner.

00;19;45;27 - 00;20;10;06
Speaker 2
Whatever, by any means necessary. Here's the deal. As we come to the end of the year, whenever you're listening to this, get some rest, take a break, catch up on your sleep, do what you need to do. Nobody else is going to do it for you. Your boss may pay great lip service, and may even mean that they want you to take a break.

00;20;10;08 - 00;20;15;21
Speaker 2
But when you're on the screen answering that email at 10:00 at night, they're not stopping you either.

00;20;15;23 - 00;20;17;10
Speaker 1
Right?

00;20;17;13 - 00;20;28;03
Speaker 2
Right. And it's not that they're evil, horrible, exploitative people. And even if they are, you still can control what you can control. All right.

00;20;28;06 - 00;20;52;09
Speaker 1
Well, Wayne, thank you so much for this episode. I hope that it's helpful to the people who are listening. And before we go, we're excited to share that the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is now available. So those of you who are starting your New Year's resolutions or thinking about things for this year, you might want to pick up this book because it is packed with actionable strategies to help you lead effectively in today's remote and hybrid environments.

00;20;52;11 - 00;21;16;25
Speaker 1
Don't wait. Order your copy at long distance work life.com/ldl and take your leadership skills to the next level. And thank you so much for listening to Long Distance Worklife for Shownotes transcripts and other resources. Make sure to visit Long Distance worklife.com if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe so you never miss a future one. And while you're at it, leave us a rating or review on Apple or Spotify.

00;21;16;28 - 00;21;33;22
Speaker 1
It's quick and it helps us reach even more listeners. Just like you. We would also love to hear from you. Reach out to us via email or LinkedIn using the links in our show notes. Let us know that you listen to this episode, or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode. We would love to hear from you.

00;21;33;25 - 00;21;38;21
Speaker 1
And finally, as mine likes to say, don't let the whistles get you down. Hey!


Timestamps

0:00 Introduction
0:30 What Is Screen Fatigue?
1:25 The Physical and Mental Impacts of Screen Time
7:00 Digital Detox Strategies
10:30 Setting Boundaries with Screens
13:45 Blue Light and Notification Hacks
15:35 Enjoying Offline Activities
20:10 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Guests, Leadership, Working Remotely

Adaptability and Execution in Global Remote Teams with Enrico Menichetti

Wayne Turmel interviews Enrico Menichetti, head of Latin America and the Caribbean at VFS Global. They explore the intricacies of leading international remote teams and the cultural nuances of remote work in Latin America. Enrico shares his insights on self-awareness, cultural adaptability, and building trust across borders.

Key Takeaways

  1. Embrace Cultural Immersion: To lead effectively across cultures, immerse yourself in the local culture and show genuine curiosity about your team's environment and experiences.
  2. Prioritize Self-Awareness: Understanding your own strengths, biases, and leadership style is the foundation for connecting with and managing diverse teams.
  3. Adapt Leadership Styles: Avoid a one-size-fits-all approach; tailor your leadership to the cultural norms and communication preferences of your team members.
  4. Build Trust Before Efficiency: Focus on creating genuine connections and trust within your team before jumping into quick, transactional communication.
  5. Set the Stage for Collaboration: Start meetings with cameras on and create space for all team members to share their perspectives, respecting cultural differences in communication styles.
  6. Focus on Execution: Foster a culture of getting things done by encouraging accountability and aligning team goals with individual contributions.
  7. Lean into Discomfort: Take calculated risks and embrace challenges to grow as a leader, especially in unfamiliar or cross-cultural settings.
  8. Address Conflict Thoughtfully: Recognize that conflict resolution varies across cultures; find a balance that respects individual approaches while maintaining harmony.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;29 - 00;00;10;09
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to.

00;00;10;11 - 00;00;40;07
Enrico Menichetti
Walking Distance later. Well, I guess if you've never been here before, you can't be back. But welcome to the long distance later. This is the podcast designed to help people thrive, survive, generally make sense of the world of remote and hybrid work and the changing 21st century workplace. My name is Wayne Turmel. I am the remote work and evolving workplace subject matter expert for the Kevin Eikenberry Group.

00;00;40;14 - 00;01;13;00
Enrico Menichetti
If you're new to the podcast, you don't know that about half of the shows I co-host with my friend and colleague Marisa, she is not here today. What that means is we have a really cool interview with a very smart person. And today, that person is Enrico mana. Katie. And we are going to talk about, leading international remote teams, but also remote work in Latin America and all kinds of interesting topics.

00;01;13;07 - 00;01;22;10
Enrico Menichetti
And it would be far more interesting if he was talking about it instead of me. So, Enrico, welcome to the long distance work life.

00;01;22;11 - 00;01;25;22
Wayne Turmel
Oh my brain, thank you so much for having me.

00;01;25;25 - 00;01;41;00
Enrico Menichetti
Well, thank you for being had you. We have a true North American show because I am a Canadian living in Las Vegas, and you are in Mexico City. So we pretty much have North America covered us.

00;01;41;03 - 00;01;42;03
Wayne Turmel
Yeah.

00;01;42;06 - 00;01;52;01
Enrico Menichetti
But most of your work isn't in North America. Tell us a little bit about VFS global and then what you do and we'll start drilling down into the good stuff.

00;01;52;06 - 00;02;21;23
Wayne Turmel
Sure, sure. Yeah. For having me as excited for me to talk about this topic. So yeah, DFS global we serve as government. We serve as governments, mainly, embassies or missions that, across the globe. And, we do that and we are placing most of the, countries in the world where we kind of like, service them to a sort of outsourced model, all the non value work, let's say, of the missions.

00;02;21;25 - 00;02;45;17
Wayne Turmel
We will take that on to ensure that the mission itself can focus on the most important task. And that's getting the approvals, for example, of the visas or, or the passports to their own diaspora. So that's, that's VFS focus areas. Currently I am the head of Latin America and the Caribbean, where, I'm in charge of the business itself.

00;02;45;17 - 00;02;50;07
Wayne Turmel
Both, both the development, but also the delivery of the operations.

00;02;50;09 - 00;03;23;27
Enrico Menichetti
Excellent. So let's start with big picture. And, you know, we focus a lot on remote work and unintentionally, but not surprisingly, we have mostly focused on either Canada, the U.S or Western Europe. There is a big world out there. So can you kind of give me a very quick state of the state of the world? In Latin America is remote work, accepted?

00;03;23;27 - 00;03;29;15
Enrico Menichetti
Is it growing? Is it suspected? What's what? What do you see?

00;03;29;18 - 00;03;54;14
Wayne Turmel
So, the rethinking it back times. When I started working, there wasn't really, where where I had the privilege to be. You very quickly become an expert and working in Eastern Europe. And then I moved my way all the way to Asia, in the Philippines, coming back to Dubai and now ending up in Latin America. I think what I've seen is the trend of working remotely for sure is increasing.

00;03;54;16 - 00;04;23;15
Wayne Turmel
I think it's that flexibility that people are looking for, very much and, specifically in Latin America, I would say very similar, very similar to the other regions. The challenges that I have seen, that also create opportunities are very much into the cultural nuances and the differences that you find. Often people, don't realize how big this continent really is, where you have a Brazil, and in Latin America it is a continent on itself.

00;04;23;20 - 00;04;44;29
Wayne Turmel
It's not a country, right? It has states that are bigger than most of the countries that we know of. So, so a lot of the challenges, I think often we think about timezone differences or we think about, maybe the language barriers. But I would say the biggest challenge is always the cultural, the cultural, and how to bridge that gap.

00;04;44;29 - 00;05;14;02
Wayne Turmel
I would say in Latin America as well, dealing with 35 different countries, including the Caribbean, I think is very important in my view, that, leaders that are wanting to create high performing teams in a region like this are not just knowing the culture, but they are really immersed into the culture. Right? It's important that people feel that the, the leaders that are directing them are really understanding them, right?

00;05;14;02 - 00;05;37;02
Wayne Turmel
That there's this real curiosity as a leader. So, so that that that I would say it's an interesting aspect, how to maneuver through that. One way I can say that is also a very constant is how does the leader create a lot of self-awareness? In a, in a, in a, in a region like this with so many different cultures, the language is different.

00;05;37;02 - 00;05;40;12
Wayne Turmel
Spanish and Portuguese mainly, very little English.

00;05;40;12 - 00;05;51;28
Enrico Menichetti
And I as, as somebody who is married to a woman who is half, Puerto Rican and half Mexican, even speaking Spanish is no guarantee that you speak the same language.

00;05;52;04 - 00;06;14;06
Wayne Turmel
Exactly, exactly that I wasn't Dominican Republic just yesterday. And, although my Spanish is not too bad, but I had to do an effort to follow the speed of that Spanish, so it wasn't it wasn't very easy. But I think self-awareness is something that I very early on in my career, I started investing a lot of time, a lot of efforts, because it's a constant work, it's a constant development.

00;06;14;06 - 00;06;40;01
Wayne Turmel
And why is that? Is because if we really want to lead people in any culture, in any language, in any place in the world, the best way you can do that is to understand yourself first. Very well. And if you understand yourself building on those blocks and trying to then to, create curiosity, understand and the other cultures, I think that creates a very good base for a leader to, to develop.

00;06;40;04 - 00;07;13;16
Enrico Menichetti
You said something that really resonated with me, and it's not something we hear a lot here in the places that think we run the world. One of the things you said is that it's important that the leader adapt to the culture of where they're working. And I think a lot of us, particularly North Americans, spend a lot of time trying to get everybody to get with the program and adapt to us.

00;07;13;18 - 00;07;15;00
Enrico Menichetti
Tell me a little bit about that.

00;07;15;05 - 00;07;43;08
Wayne Turmel
Yes, exactly. And I feel if we I mean, managing people is always about people, no matter if you can virtually remotely face to face. Right. So the, the, the student aspect that will always come back, for example, the how to how to show empathy, how to show genuine interest in people creating genuine connections. So for that, very early on, making mistakes myself, I realized that there's no one fit for.

00;07;43;08 - 00;08;05;20
Wayne Turmel
All right. You need to adapt. And often in the Western world, even in Europe, where I grew up, we we take that for granted. We think that the whole world operates in a certain way. The way of thinking is the same. And I have a very specific example when I move to Romania. Plus, in Europe, in Eastern Europe, I arrived there as a very young guy.

00;08;05;20 - 00;08;22;09
Wayne Turmel
I was 24 or 25, in charge of the scheme, and I had this person that I hired. The manager came to my office one day, sat down in front of me and looked at me and said, I don't think I can trust you, says the person. And I was taken back by that. And I said, can you tell me more?

00;08;22;09 - 00;08;42;18
Wayne Turmel
Right. What what was driving that? Or because in the time you came here, you've been understanding, you've been helping us. When issues arise, you're working on it together, as a person. And I don't think that can be real. That's not the real you. Right. So that that and the person basically left my office by me saying, look, time will tell.

00;08;42;21 - 00;09;12;27
Wayne Turmel
There's not much I can say right now, but let's see in a couple of months. And the person came back eventually and said to me, look, I was wrong, right? It's possible to do it differently as well. But that directed being so direct, I wasn't really familiar with that. Right. That culture of like just saying what they think versus then moving to the Philippines where it was the opposite, where people are so great, graceful, very, very, very friendly, and they will never tell you what, what's really wrong?

00;09;12;27 - 00;09;36;05
Wayne Turmel
Because they, they work very much in an environment of, collaboration and, and being nice to each other. And that was another aspect that I have to learn as well, so that that differentiation, I think it's a learning curve. But yeah, it's an important aspect of a leader. Again, to, to embrace and to understand that it can be done differently.

00;09;36;07 - 00;09;36;24
Wayne Turmel
Yeah.

00;09;36;26 - 00;10;04;21
Enrico Menichetti
Yeah. In that little bit of international work that I've done, it seems like how we address conflict is such a powerful thing, because there are cultures that have no problem going head on and you don't do it that way. You are weak, or you don't know what you're doing or you don't have confidence. Versus harmony is important, and that is the most important thing.

00;10;04;21 - 00;10;08;04
Enrico Menichetti
And neither is 100% constructive.

00;10;08;07 - 00;10;27;16
Wayne Turmel
And that's that's the key a very, very good point because how you bring that all together, because often when you are managing international news, you have all these different cultures on one call at the same time, right? How do you manage that? And and that really goes back to the point of trying to create is genuine connects. Right.

00;10;27;18 - 00;10;46;22
Wayne Turmel
Often, I think the example of the bad, bad habits that we sometimes create of like calling somebody off or being in a call and saying, oh, just a quick one. Just a quick one. And I will be very quick. But actually what that does, it takes away the connection. It takes away the trust. It's just like, I need something from you very quick.

00;10;46;22 - 00;11;15;09
Wayne Turmel
Give it to me now. And I think working if you know the person face to face every day, you can get away with that. But if you have an international team that you don't see often or seldom, it's they're very dangerous things to do where instead of connecting, first create a connect, have a proper intro, create curiosity with the person you're talking with a team you're talking, and then you create as harmony again of, of, of different, differences that are, as a culture and a call.

00;11;15;12 - 00;11;44;26
Enrico Menichetti
You're saying so many things that are resonating with me. And that sound kind of counterintuitive. And one of the things you just said is this notion of shorthand, this notion of quick communication. It can work very effectively if the relationship is there, if the trust is there, if there's history. But you need to start long and taking time and work to short and you can't start there.

00;11;44;28 - 00;12;14;07
Wayne Turmel
Because if you create like connection, you create that a genuine a genuine connection with your people. That also, again, is the base also build your own culture. And as a leader, we all have different cultures of of how we develop a high performing team or a high performing group. Right. And I'm going to that goes back to the aspect of as a leader, then you can really having your self-awareness start investing and understanding the person.

00;12;14;12 - 00;12;37;01
Wayne Turmel
What what drives them. What how can I get the best out of this individual? And so you basically go beyond that, that barrier of different culture and language now. And I'll certainly understand the person because I have created a bridge already and, and and then and then you're building a culture in my, my, my culture, as people know me, is very much driven by getting things done right.

00;12;37;02 - 00;12;59;07
Wayne Turmel
Execution. So I'm going to embrace that as a culture. There's this book of, of of of, Larry. Larry who? I forgot the last name right now, but who is the art of execution? And it's a book that I have been giving to a lot of my leaders all the time because they're like, we can do a lot of talks, we can have great ideas.

00;12;59;07 - 00;13;19;29
Wayne Turmel
We can, but our culture should be that we get stuff done. Right. And and I think that's also core to people that are living from in different places, or a team that is spread across the globe is how you build that culture, that getting things done, because it doesn't matter which time zone I am or what needs to happen, my mindset is I want to get this task done.

00;13;19;29 - 00;13;32;10
Wayne Turmel
So I will make sure that it gets done. I'm not going to wait until my 5 to 8 happens in my time zone. I will work with the group to really, deliver the project, to deliver and execute.

00;13;32;12 - 00;13;51;24
Enrico Menichetti
Can you give us a couple of very concrete day one kind of things that you do when bringing a team, especially a disparate, international team together to help jumpstart those connections?

00;13;51;26 - 00;14;19;05
Wayne Turmel
I would say in a, in a virtual world, the first and foremost thing, excuse me, is cameras on, have your cameras on, see each other. It would be very basic, but I think often that's being, overlooked. People are connecting quickly again over zoom or over and over the different tools that we have. But the least we can do as we are not in person is let's look at each other and let's, let's just have a have a face to face.

00;14;19;08 - 00;14;42;27
Wayne Turmel
I'll say that's the first thing. The second thing is also we need to create again that culture of let's, let's give everybody an opportunity to speak up as well. And, you know, we are we all have different cultures. We all have different, approaches to the issues. Some people, some cultures are more respectful and they will wait until somebody finished talking.

00;14;43;00 - 00;15;07;19
Wayne Turmel
Other ones actually is almost like more respectful to start talking while somebody is almost finishing, because then I agree with his points. And so and all of that needs to be understood and not changed with how do we adapt to that space, how do we adapt so and slowly setting the tone right, I will I go back to the fact of the self-awareness and also the order of execution.

00;15;07;22 - 00;15;24;17
Wayne Turmel
That's another aspect as well. So these are the, I would say, the four things I would list as, things that that a team really or a leader needs to focus on to, to start building, let's say a unified team globally.

00;15;24;20 - 00;15;38;19
Enrico Menichetti
I'm really interested in your experience because at I mean, I left the country and came to another country, but that was baby steps, right? Canada to the US is not exactly a world. World.

00;15;38;21 - 00;15;40;25
Wayne Turmel
No, it's not still a change.

00;15;41;01 - 00;16;10;00
Enrico Menichetti
It is a change. And it's not Italy to Romania. It's not, you know, the Dominican Republic to the Philippines. How do you what is what goes on in your mind when you find yourself in a new environment and you're not breaking bread and you're not sitting right next to the person, that how do you get yourself in that mindset?

00;16;10;02 - 00;16;37;04
Wayne Turmel
So what privilege I had is that I was raised by an immigrant family, Italian family, and I was raised in Belgium in a group where, our community was any kind of nationality except Belgians or most. So growing up way, I must be very honest. I created a little bit identity crisis for myself because I never fit anywhere else.

00;16;37;09 - 00;16;59;09
Wayne Turmel
I'm not Italian because I wasn't born in Italy, but at home we are Italian. But I was not Belgian. And when I travel, people always ask me where I'm from. I could never place myself. It's only later on that I realized that that that experience that I did, being that, having it like I thought it was like normal for me to be in between different cultures.

00;16;59;12 - 00;17;30;03
Wayne Turmel
Different mentalities, different languages. I think that was really the basis of, of me kind of like that able to adapt quicker and faster. So what I would say is that with that, for most people, often we see our, some of the aspects of our upbringing or development or our challenges as a issues as problems. But I will always try to see the golden nugget in those things that I have learned later on as well.

00;17;30;05 - 00;17;52;08
Wayne Turmel
And I think that's that's really if I now have to go to the Dominican Republic or the Philippines or I'm sitting in, in Eastern Europe, somewhere in Romania, for example, I don't, I don't really think anymore about how how I want, how I want to be treated. It's about how do I adapt to the local customs there.

00;17;52;11 - 00;18;17;20
Wayne Turmel
I think that's that's a very important. I have seen a lot of expats or friends, colleagues very successful as well. But I had a little bit of a challenge, like even even moving to Dubai wasn't very comfortable for them because getting out of the routines. So jumping into the unknown, sometimes is, is a good thing. Not everything has to be laid out because only when we jump in unknown unknowns, sometimes we can find what's was beyond that.

00;18;17;20 - 00;18;27;02
Wayne Turmel
Right? What? What else can I do? How far can I go? So getting a little out of the comfort zone, I would say it's important. Accepting that fact.

00;18;27;05 - 00;18;37;24
Enrico Menichetti
And, you know, being humble without feeling inferior is an interesting balance. But but love, humility does.

00;18;37;27 - 00;18;54;04
Wayne Turmel
Something as a leader that needs to, gain the respect of their team as well. It's a very fair point, right? They get humbleness adapting. But also, yes, having a assertiveness in terms of how you want to lead. Yeah.

00;18;54;07 - 00;19;14;19
Enrico Menichetti
Enrico, this has been terrific. And as we knew what happened, the time has flown. Is there one thing that as a leader in your experience, is unique? I mean, not everybody has has lived your life, to be sure. Is there one thing that you want to leave our audience with?

00;19;14;22 - 00;19;41;13
Wayne Turmel
I think one, do a lot of things, as you can see, I can speak about. But the one thing, if it's now if you're aspiring to become a leader within your country, where you are or abroad, no matter what your aspirations are, I always take the quote of Richard Branson very close to my heart. And that's like when somebody asks you to do something, say yes and then figure it out afterwards.

00;19;41;16 - 00;20;07;10
Wayne Turmel
Right? And it is not about being always a yes man, but this is about accepting challenges, right? My life, if it brought me to where I am today, is because sometimes I take also, calculated risks, knowing in the back of my mind that that's where the challenge sits. That's where I want to, find development for myself and learn new things and and eventually be successful.

00;20;07;13 - 00;20;33;12
Enrico Menichetti
Well, rather than that's how a lot of us got here. So. Yeah, I take that motto to heart myself. Enrico, thank you so much for being with us. I am going to remove you from the video for a moment. This means nothing to the people listening on audio. If you want to know more about Enrico, we will have links to him on LinkedIn, then to VFS and to his work.

00;20;33;15 - 00;21;04;09
Enrico Menichetti
On our homepage, which is long distance work life.com. If you are interested in our new book, which is really our old book, The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership. The second edition. It is out now. We are very excited about that. You can learn how to buy multiple copies, how to get all kinds of free offers at Kevin eikenberry.com/ldl.

00;21;04;11 - 00;21;36;24
Enrico Menichetti
As podcast listeners, you know how this works. We rely on word of mouth and you telling others. So please, please, please, like and subscribe. We have over 120, episodes now for you to take advantage of conversations with really, really cool people like Enrico. The other half are really cool conversations, too, but they are, with Marisa and I, darn it.

00;21;36;24 - 00;22;02;29
Enrico Menichetti
And Marisa and I are interested in your questions, your thoughts, your comments. If you have an idea for a guest, if you have a topic that you'd like us to cover, please, please, please let us know. We are both on LinkedIn. Wayne Turmel, Marisa Eikenberry or Wayne at Kevin eikenberry.com or Marisa at Kevin eikenberry.com. And darn it, that's it for another week.

00;22;02;29 - 00;22;16;00
Enrico Menichetti
Thank you so much. Thank you to Enrico for being with us. We really enjoyed bringing the show to you. My name is Wayne Turmel. And don't let the weasels get you down.


Timestamps

0:00 Introduction
1:13 Meet Enrico Menichetti and VFS Global
2:52 Remote Work Trends in Latin America
5:14 Importance of Cultural Immersion in Leadership
8:36 Navigating Conflict in Multicultural Teams
11:15 Building Genuine Connections in Remote Teams
13:32 Leadership Challenges in New Environments
16:37 Advice for Aspiring Leaders

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Use Your PTO! The Holiday Guide for Remote Workers
Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Use Your PTO! The Holiday Guide for Remote Workers

The holiday season is here, but are you really taking time off? In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, Wayne and Marisa dive into the importance of using your PTO, setting boundaries with work, and creating intentional plans to recharge during the holidays. Learn strategies for resisting the urge to check work emails, protecting your time, and collaborating with your team to ensure everyone gets the break they deserve. Plus, discover why unplugging is vital for your mental health and productivity.

Whether you're struggling with holiday guilt, a recovering workaholic, or simply unsure how to navigate PTO as a remote worker, this episode has actionable advice to help you thrive.

Key Takeaways

1. Plan Your PTO Today: If you have unused PTO, schedule it now. Use it to rest, recharge, and reflect on your accomplishments.
2. Set Boundaries: Silence notifications, turn off work alerts, and resist the urge to check your inbox during time off.
3. Be Intentional: Create small plans that bring you joy, whether it’s reading a book, enjoying coffee dates, or scheduling social activities.
4. Communicate with Your Team: Plan ahead with colleagues to ensure adequate coverage during holiday breaks. Use tools like Slack or email scheduling to respect others' time off.
5. Unplug Guilt-Free: Remember, taking PTO isn’t just a perk—it’s essential for maintaining work-life balance and long-term productivity.

View Full Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;22;02
Marisa Eikenberry
The holiday season is supposed to be a time for joy and connection, but for many remote workers, it feels more like juggling act of work, emails and holiday plans. Sound familiar? If taking time off without sneaking a peek at your inbox feels like an impossible dream, you're in the right place.

00;00;22;05 - 00;00;34;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long Distance Worklife, where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me as always, is co-host and remote work expert Wayne Travel. Hi, Wayne.

00;00;34;24 - 00;00;36;26
Wayne Turmel
Hey, Marissa. How are you?

00;00;36;29 - 00;00;59;29
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. It's the holiday season and lights are up and things are happening. And you know, it's it's just great. But obviously we have to also start thinking about taking time off. And so there's I mean, we got to talk about setting boundaries and disconnecting and actually enjoying our holiday season. What a concept.

00;01;00;03 - 00;01;11;15
Wayne Turmel
Yeah it's it is an interesting thing. And if you have trouble setting boundaries this is the time of year when it becomes an Olympic sport.

00;01;11;17 - 00;01;14;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, great.

00;01;14;06 - 00;01;44;17
Wayne Turmel
If you have no trouble setting boundaries. God love you. Enjoy the turkey and party down. But it is tough. And we're not even talking about all the family stuff that goes on it. Actually, this speaks to. And I'm speaking to my since I am now a citizen, my American brothers and sisters. Who are notorious for not taking their time off.

00;01;44;19 - 00;02;16;28
Wayne Turmel
The average American lives 10 to 14 hours of personal time in there. Use it or lose it at count. And that means they lose it every year. We are awful about that. Europeans are like, these people are morons. I can't help. But it is important that, you know, I more than once have been taken aside and said, I don't care what you have planned.

00;02;17;03 - 00;02;26;05
Wayne Turmel
You need to take this time off. And so there you go. And a lot of people are in that position.

00;02;26;08 - 00;02;27;19
Marisa Eikenberry


00;02;27;22 - 00;02;49;14
Wayne Turmel
I find it's easier for me to take days throughout the years so that there is less of a chunk of unstructured time because Wayne basically loses his mind. You know, if I don't plan to go anywhere and I it's just my wife and I. So I am left to my own devices. Right. You know.

00;02;49;16 - 00;02;50;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;02;50;12 - 00;02;54;04
Wayne Turmel
You know, let's see I transcribed back.

00;02;54;06 - 00;03;15;19
Marisa Eikenberry
You know what. It'll probably actually do pretty well. But it's, it's interesting too that you're talking about this because like I actually got a newsletter this morning that was talking about, you know, taking PTO and, and why you should. And here's the things you can do. But they had this line and I wanted to remember it for this episode, but it says, remember that paid time off is more than just a perk of your job.

00;03;15;24 - 00;03;20;17
Marisa Eikenberry
It's a vital part of maintaining your work life balance.

00;03;20;20 - 00;03;26;15
Wayne Turmel
And oh, by the way, it's the law. They have to give it to you. So stop feeling guilty.

00;03;26;18 - 00;03;29;02
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, that do.

00;03;29;04 - 00;03;48;20
Wayne Turmel
Seriously, I don't care about your perfect attendance record. You know, it is your time. You are being paid for it. Take advantage of it. And to Marissa's point. It does allow us to recharge our batteries, and we need to do that.

00;03;48;22 - 00;03;49;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? So.

00;03;49;26 - 00;03;58;06
Wayne Turmel
You know, it's funny this time of year. This time of year. I I'm just going to get personal for a moment.

00;03;58;08 - 00;03;58;25
Marisa Eikenberry
That's fine.

00;03;58;28 - 00;04;21;24
Wayne Turmel
The end of the year is really hard for me. I tend not to celebrate the end of the year. I tend to go in a fetal position and obsess about all the ways that screwed up. Oh, no. I mean, basically, I hate New Year's Eve. I love New Year's Day. Okay, here's day. I've got a start. I've got a fresh start.

00;04;21;27 - 00;04;32;26
Wayne Turmel
New year's Eve is just a giant convention of all my neuroses hanging out inside my head. And, oh, by the way, let's fuel that with alcohol.

00;04;32;28 - 00;04;34;01
Marisa Eikenberry
You know.

00;04;34;03 - 00;05;07;06
Wayne Turmel
Sure. So. Woo hoo! So I have learned. And that's why I'm sharing this with you. I have learned that while staying busy over the holidays keeps me somewhat sane, I tend to balance it out so I will with discussion with my manager. I will work part days. I will work a couple of days and then take each day off during this time.

00;05;07;07 - 00;05;15;26
Wayne Turmel
It's also a really good chance for me to be a good teammate and cover for people who are, you know, stressed for time.

00;05;15;29 - 00;05;33;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Well, and it's interesting too, that you talk about, you know, you prefer to take days over the year and all that. I, I am somebody my very first year here. And for those of you that have been listening for a while, this will surprise no one. I didn't take a single day off the first year that I worked for getting.

00;05;33;07 - 00;05;39;13
Marisa Eikenberry
That was just me as a person. I just, while I'm here, I got to take the day, you know? So unless you're hoping for a.

00;05;39;13 - 00;05;40;20
Wayne Turmel
Certificate on the wall.

00;05;40;20 - 00;06;05;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Because the thing is, I. What I wasn't, it was just in my head. I'm like, well, I'm supposed to go to work, so I'm going to go. Or, like, I didn't have any reason not to go. And yeah. And like, Kevin pulled me aside and was like, hey, so take your day. And, you know, because I, I don't really travel at this current time in my life and I don't really do a lot of extra stuff.

00;06;05;05 - 00;06;32;25
Marisa Eikenberry
So for the most part, I don't really have a reason to just take a random Thursday off because, you know, to your point, like I just sit at home, I go, well, I could have been working, but the last couple of years I do take a chunk of time at the end of the year. Because, you know, I host Christmas Eve and I'm trying to bake cookies with my mom and so there's all this stuff that happens at the very end of the year anyway, and it's just like all of that stuff comes together and it's like, you know what?

00;06;32;25 - 00;06;50;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay. And so the last I think two year, 2 or 3 years now, I've just taken the last two weeks of the year off and it's just been that's it. I'm I'm out of the office and it's weirdly been the best thing for me to do to get myself reset for January. Yeah.

00;06;51;00 - 00;06;53;18
Wayne Turmel
Not everybody can go.

00;06;53;20 - 00;06;54;13
Marisa Eikenberry
100%.

00;06;54;13 - 00;07;17;14
Wayne Turmel
Without a break. And so, you know, if you want to grow up and be like, Marissa, God love you. Not everybody functions that way. And so it's really important. What if you struggle with that? If you struggle that what am I going to do except obsess about work? Make a plan for that day.

00;07;17;17 - 00;07;18;02
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;07;18;04 - 00;07;40;11
Wayne Turmel
Even if it is. I mean, I have said I am stepping out. I live in Las Vegas, so I can do this. I am going to spend a couple hours on the deck with a book, me and the hummingbirds and maybe a cigar. I actually plan for that and I leave and it's it a I got to check something off my list.

00;07;40;11 - 00;07;44;07
Wayne Turmel
I sat right back and I watched the hummingbird and I had a cigar. And it's all good.

00;07;44;10 - 00;07;45;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Check check check check.

00;07;45;21 - 00;07;52;14
Wayne Turmel
But plan little. What makes you happy? What is a treat for yourself?

00;07;52;16 - 00;07;53;20
Marisa Eikenberry


00;07;53;22 - 00;08;16;14
Wayne Turmel
And it doesn't have to be huge. It really doesn't. But little things that make you happy. Is there a book you've been wanting to read? Is there a movie you've been wanting to see? Is there you know, my wife and I have coffee dates and we get out of the house, which is the function, because Wayne is in the house all week.

00;08;16;20 - 00;08;18;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;08;18;06 - 00;08;46;09
Wayne Turmel
We get out of the house, we have a cup of coffee. We chat about stuff. But we make it an event. And I think that's the thing is. Well, what am I going to do with this time anyway? Get used to being good to yourself, and it doesn't have to be big, and it doesn't have to be expensive, and it doesn't have to be anything that any body else cares about.

00;08;46;11 - 00;09;05;29
Marisa Eikenberry
100%. I mean, I'm not going to lie. Parker and I have. So Parker's my husband. For those of you listeners that haven't heard me mention that name before, but like there has been once or twice, but we took a day off of work. Why? Because again, we were really excited about came out and we were going to play it together.

00;09;06;01 - 00;09;23;02
Wayne Turmel
Absolutely. Little things make us happy. And if you are alone at this time, plan for things that get you involved with other humans.

00;09;23;05 - 00;09;26;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, the social part is so important.

00;09;26;05 - 00;09;47;01
Wayne Turmel
It is. It's really easy for this to be hard for people. My daughter is in Chicago. She's alone. She struggles with seasonal stuff. Anyway. She has to. Yesterday she went to the, sing along with it at.

00;09;47;05 - 00;09;48;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;09;48;06 - 00;10;00;16
Wayne Turmel
By herself, her and half of Chicago, from the sounds of it. Just singing popular at the top of her lungs for two hours, and it made her happy.

00;10;00;18 - 00;10;09;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Thank you. You know, I definitely want to see that movie, but I'm waiting for the no singalong version for a bit, because I've actually never seen it.

00;10;09;15 - 00;10;14;00
Wayne Turmel
But that's what she has seen the stage play nine times.

00;10;14;02 - 00;10;15;16
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, there you go.

00;10;15;18 - 00;10;47;01
Wayne Turmel
So she is a little of right, but this but this is the thing is that we need to guard our time. If you are working during this season. Don't begrudge the people who are taking their time. Plan with them what's available, what's really do. What can you do to help them? What can they do before they disappear to help you so that you are not left stranded?

00;10;47;04 - 00;11;23;28
Wayne Turmel
Right. And these conversations take place kind of organically when we're all in the office together. But when we work remotely and I. If there's a drinking game for this show, the words we. So and intentional are probably the ones that will put you over the line. But intentionality is so important. It's funny, we're talking about taking time off and recharging your batteries, but you need to be intentional about that.

00;11;24;01 - 00;11;32;25
Wayne Turmel
You can't just assume that it's going to happen or assume that everybody understands or does that the same way that you did.

00;11;32;28 - 00;11;57;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Switching gears a little bit. Talking about intentionality and, and you know, when we are taking that time, but like how do we also intentionally protect that time by, you know, resisting the urge to check work messages and slack messages and emails and all that? I know I struggled with that for a very long time. I have some tips I'll get into in a minute, but do you have some tips on that?

00;11;57;18 - 00;12;20;13
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, for me it's really simple. It's just kill the alert. It's a simple. Yep. Setting. I mean, for me, it's enough that I kill the auditory work because I'm like Pavlov's dog. I hear a ping. I need to check it. Right? Right. I can pick up my phone and see there are eight messages in outlook. Well, I ain't working right now, so.

00;12;20;16 - 00;12;38;22
Wayne Turmel
But I also have 60 years of practice that allowed me to get there. But kill the alerts. Silence the notifications. It's easy to do, and you'd be amazed at what a difference it makes.

00;12;38;24 - 00;12;44;13
Marisa Eikenberry
I've had my email this off for years and it's so helpful.

00;12;44;15 - 00;13;11;15
Wayne Turmel
And if you are obsessive, just pick a time. I mean, okay. I'm an early morning riser. My wife is asleep. I'm supposed to be on vacation. I'm supposed to be whatever. I will sneak a peek of my emails just to see if there's a burning fire. But once it's done, I'm done. I can relax. I have hit the little valve on my brain that vents that stuff.

00;13;11;17 - 00;13;35;13
Wayne Turmel
And I can now relax because I know there's nothing there that requires my immediate attention. For a lot of us. It's the anticipation of, oh, my God, there's something in my inbox. I know there is. So, you know, hitting the little vent and letting the steam escape is actually better than just trying to ignore it. Stick your finger in here and go la la la la la I'm not listening.

00;13;35;14 - 00;13;36;10
Wayne Turmel
You.

00;13;36;13 - 00;14;07;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Well funny enough that is what I do is that I, I have all the do not disturb, but I know me. I know that for me, I am a recovering workaholic. And if I first of all, I get a bunch of emails just telling me that the websites have updated constantly. And so those happen anyway. But I know that if I go in to look at stuff and if I see something that's a task my brain isn't going to be, oh, that can wait until Monday.

00;14;07;06 - 00;14;29;08
Marisa Eikenberry
It's, well, I can do that right now. I'm already home. Like, I'll just go do it. I know me and so I won't look at it at all. So if if you are like me, like, that's okay too. Whatever you need to do to protect yourself and your time. I know that one of our coworkers used to frequently tell me we are not surgeons.

00;14;29;09 - 00;14;33;11
Marisa Eikenberry
These are not life and death situations. And if it is, they will pick up the phone.

00;14;33;14 - 00;15;01;00
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, it's. We've been doing this show a long time. We have given you lots of advice. Readers, listeners. I still I'm an analog guy. Dear listener, we have given you a bunch of stuff. Some of it is going to ring true. Some of it is going to seem weird. Probably we should have offered this disclaimer when we began doing this show, which is your mileage may vary, right?

00;15;01;01 - 00;15;32;26
Wayne Turmel
We are all human beings with our own individual styles. For me, quick bursts of venting and then being allowed to possibly go about my day works for other people. It doesn't. As long as it doesn't go down the rabbit hole, as long as you it doesn't interfere with your pleasure, with your relaxation. I know that being worried about stuff is counterintuitive to time off.

00;15;32;28 - 00;16;13;24
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Defeats the purpose. Get used to it is my advice. Small doses gradually building up resistance. And that is the answer. But we all do stuff differently, and there are generalities. We need time off. We need to recharge our batteries. We need to set boundaries with the people we work with and for so that our life, work life does not overrun our personal life and steal our joy.

00;16;13;26 - 00;16;20;26
Wayne Turmel
And yes, this is grumpy old white guy talking about joy. You are allowed to have it.

00;16;20;28 - 00;16;30;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Let the record state at 1127 at 2 p.m., Wayne said. Let there be joy.

00;16;30;11 - 00;16;34;23
Wayne Turmel
And it were. And let there be joy. Darn it, it's the holidays.

00;16;34;25 - 00;16;54;02
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and to your point about, you know, respecting each other's boundaries and things like that. So, you know, if I know that Wayne is out for a week and I might still be working and I have something that I need to talk to him about or whatever, maybe I don't send that email right now. We have slack schedulers.

00;16;54;03 - 00;17;14;24
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm sure Microsoft Teams has some sort of scheduling thing. I know outlook does. You know, if you need to get the email out of your head. So that way you don't forget. Great. Do it. Schedule it for when they come back because it's it's just not important right now. And if it is pick up the phone.

00;17;14;27 - 00;17;20;19
Wayne Turmel
And your desire to get it off your plate does not mean you get to mess with somebody else.

00;17;20;21 - 00;17;24;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. And while it will.

00;17;24;06 - 00;17;33;20
Wayne Turmel
Things scheduling emails, you know, these little behavioral niceties.

00;17;33;22 - 00;17;35;09
Marisa Eikenberry


00;17;35;12 - 00;17;51;28
Wayne Turmel
Build up. You know we've talked before about the trust bank account and how every time you have a good interaction with somebody it builds positive will and positive will so that when inevitably something unhappy happens you don't drain that account.

00;17;52;00 - 00;17;53;01
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;17;53;03 - 00;18;11;29
Wayne Turmel
And these little things make all the difference. You know, you've heard me say before. My favorite quote from Napoleon. If you want to avoid war, you avoid the thousand little pinpricks that lead to war. Little things like this matter.

00;18;12;02 - 00;18;34;05
Marisa Eikenberry
So one of the last things I want to cover before we end this episode is, you know, what are some strategies that teams can implement to, like, ensure adequate coverage when team members are taking time off, especially like, you know, we're going into the holiday season, lots and lots of people are taking time off. And in some cases you're working with skeleton crews and things like that.

00;18;34;05 - 00;18;40;28
Marisa Eikenberry
So what can teams kind of plan for ahead of time to accommodate?

00;18;41;00 - 00;18;49;21
Wayne Turmel
I can't remember the last time anybody listening to this heard me say, have a meeting, but this would be one.

00;18;49;24 - 00;18;51;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00;18;51;09 - 00;19;22;22
Wayne Turmel
Right. Prior to probably mid-November, as a team, look at what is remaining that needs to be done for the rest of the year. That is time sensitive, right? That isn't just more of the same, but what are the unique demands of the end of the year? There are reports that need to be done. There are all kinds of end of the year activities that get added on to, oh yeah, we're trying to run a business and sell some stuff.

00;19;22;25 - 00;19;23;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Crazy.

00;19;23;28 - 00;19;48;15
Wayne Turmel
So as a team, identify what those are and then talk about who's going to be a way during that time. You know, people have use it or lose it time. You know, so-and-so can't shut up about their upcoming trip to Hawaii. We know they're not going to be here, but somebody else has a bunch of use it or lose it time, and there's no real occasion.

00;19;48;15 - 00;19;51;00
Wayne Turmel
So we didn't know that they're going to be gone.

00;19;51;03 - 00;19;53;26
Marisa Eikenberry


00;19;53;29 - 00;20;19;19
Wayne Turmel
Have these conversations and maybe have a slack channel or something like that. That's just for holiday coverage. Hey I'm around. Hey I'm going to be around but I'm going to be out for two days. Something came up. I'm not in the rest of the day. Right. Keep each other apprized so that there are fewer uncomfortable. Recognitions.

00;20;19;21 - 00;20;21;20
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Sudden recognitions.

00;20;21;22 - 00;20;38;21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Well, and in your out of office emails, too. You can also say, you know, hey, if you have questions about this talk to this. I know every time I do an out of office, especially if I'm the only one taking time off. Like it depends on what it is. You know, if they're talking about long distance work life, I tell them to go to you.

00;20;38;21 - 00;20;46;16
Marisa Eikenberry
If they're talking about Remarkable Leadership podcast, they go to Lisa like, I have a list. Here's all the people that you need to talk to because I'm not here.

00;20;46;19 - 00;21;13;25
Wayne Turmel
Here's the other thing with a couple of very obvious exceptions, because you are the tech guru that the rest of us aren't. Stuff gets done. The company is still standing when you come back on January, whatever the heck it is. Yeah, the building will still be there. You will still have a job. Your boss is still going to expect you to get back to work.

00;21;13;27 - 00;21;16;15
Wayne Turmel
And the world has not come to a halt.

00;21;16;18 - 00;21;18;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;21;18;09 - 00;21;28;27
Wayne Turmel
If you are that vital to the preservation and maintenance of the business, you are underpaid and your boss is doing it wrong.

00;21;28;29 - 00;21;36;14
Marisa Eikenberry
And probably have no idea anything about delegation either. Depending on where you're at in the hierarchy.

00;21;36;17 - 00;21;49;07
Wayne Turmel
But that's something that we need to get used to, to this notion that if I take my holidays, the bill, you know, the company will fail. No it won't. Yeah.

00;21;49;10 - 00;21;54;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, it's like we said earlier, that man, that's a life or death situation.

00;21;54;07 - 00;21;59;18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. It's like, take your time. It's right across.

00;21;59;21 - 00;22;19;11
Marisa Eikenberry
Do it. So I guess the lesson for this episode, listeners is that if you aren't taking your PTO, please take it. If you know that you have days that you haven't spent this year, and especially if it's a use it or lose it. Figure out when you're going to take off. Like right now. Like stop the show. Go do it.

00;22;19;13 - 00;22;38;08
Marisa Eikenberry
We will forgive you for not listening to the rest of this episode. But, Wayne, I want to thank you so much for this last live episode of the year. This last one that we're going to be recording. So for those of you that are listening, you'll hear about two weeks of replays before we get new shows up in January.

00;22;38;11 - 00;23;05;03
Marisa Eikenberry
But before we go, we're excited to share that the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is now available. This updated guide is packed with actionable strategies to help you lead effectively in today's remote and hybrid environments. Don't wait. Order your copy at long distance work life.com/ldl. Take your leadership skills to the next level in 2025. And because the holidays are in full swing, we do want to wish you a joyful and restful season.

00;23;05;06 - 00;23;26;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Take these moments to recharge. Use your PTO. Connect with your loved ones and reflect on the wins that you've had this year because you've earned it. And thank you so much for listening to The Longest Worklife for Shownotes transcripts and other resources. Make sure to visit Long Distance worklife.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe so you never miss a future one.

00;23;26;14 - 00;23;43;11
Marisa Eikenberry
And while you're at it, leave us a rating or review on Apple or Spotify. It's quick, and it helps us reach even more listeners like you. And we'd also love to hear from you. So reach out to us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes and let us know that you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in the New Year.

00;23;43;13 - 00;23;50;11
Marisa Eikenberry
Thank you so much for being part of our community. We hope you have a wonderful holiday season. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weakness get you down.


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
01:00 Why Americans struggle with taking PTO
03:15 The benefits of PTO for work-life balance
05:00 Personal stories of managing time off and holiday stress
08:00 Small joys: Planning activities for your time off
12:00 Tips for disconnecting from work during PTO
14:30 The power of scheduling and protecting boundaries
18:12 Strategies for ensuring adequate team coverage during holidays
22:00 Final thoughts: Why you need to take your PTO now!

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Guests, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Beyond Tools: Building Trust and Accountability in Remote Project Management with Sri Ganesan

Wayne Turmel welcomes Sri Ganesan, co-founder and CEO of Rocketlane, for a deep dive into the challenges and innovations in remote project management. They discuss the complexities of client-facing projects, why traditional tools often fail remote teams, and how Rocketlane aims to centralize and streamline project delivery to create transparency and trust. Sri shares insights on the importance of proactive systems over "hero" managers, the evolving role of project management without dedicated PMs, and how AI is shaping the future of project oversight. Tune in for practical tips on building client trust, setting expectations, and fostering effective collaboration in a dispersed environment.

Key Takeaways

1. Solving the Silo Problem: Remote project teams often suffer from information silos due to multiple tools. Rocketlane addresses this by providing a centralized platform for project and customer collaboration.
2. Transparency Builds Trust: Sri highlights the importance of transparency in client-facing projects, noting how regular status updates and customer-facing insights can reduce anxiety and foster trust.
3. From Hero to System: Great project management shouldn’t rely on heroic efforts. Instead, robust systems should proactively surface potential risks and keep projects on track without constant manual oversight.
4. Adapting Project Management: Many remote projects lack dedicated PMs, making it crucial for tools to fill this gap by guiding governance and best practices.
5. AI in Project Management: Sri encourages teams to start experimenting with AI to identify project risks early and improve efficiency in team workflows.

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;05 - 00;00;36;17
Wayne Turmel
Hello everybody, and welcome to the Long-Distance Worklife Podcast where we are determined to help you thrive. Survive generally make sense of the crazy, ever changing world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. This is a Marisa-less episode, because as we do every other week, we have a really excellent conversation planned for you.

00;00;36;19 - 00;00;57;00
Wayne Turmel
So I'm going to introduce today's guest, Sri Ganesan. Is the boss of all things at Rocketlane. We're going to talk about project management, managing projects, setting up teams in a remote environment. Tre, how are you today?

00;00;57;02 - 00;01;03;10
Sri Ganesan
I mean, thank you so much for having me on your show today. I'm doing well. Things are good.

00;01;03;12 - 00;01;15;22
Wayne Turmel
I am delighted to hear that. We will try not to, mess that up. So real quickly, tell us, who are you? Why do we care? And what is Rocketlane?

00;01;15;24 - 00;01;43;24
Sri Ganesan
Sure. So, you know, as you introduced, I'm one of the founders and the CEO here at Rocket Lab, and this is my second SAS venture, built one from 2012 to 2015. And then, you know, that company got acquired, went through a seven and eight year journey overall in the previous business. And had a lot of learnings from that venture, which pushed us, me and my co-founders, the same co-founders of the last time, towards building something new.

00;01;43;27 - 00;02;09;13
Sri Ganesan
And we started Rocket Land four and a half years ago. We found that client facing project delivery felt very broken. We found a category called PSC Professional Services Automation, which had a bunch of legacy tools, and we thought, hey, what if we make this customer centric, modern PSC as a category that we can champion, we can create, and that's what we are on to at Rocket Lab.

00;02;09;13 - 00;02;32;00
Sri Ganesan
So we are a professional services automation tool which has a customer facing angle to it and helps both in the back end of operations for project delivery teams, like resource management, time tracking, etc. but also on the front end of it helps you with the actual project delivery, the governance around it, and so on.

00;02;32;03 - 00;02;40;21
Wayne Turmel
What was actually broken in the client facing piece of this? What was the problem you were solving for?

00;02;40;24 - 00;03;08;22
Sri Ganesan
So it's say two things. One is there's a deluge of tools that people were using. So you use one tool for the actual project management. You use something else to collaborate on documents. You use a conversation tool like a slack or a teams. You also use a PSA tool for same time tracking, budget tracking, you know, invoicing, etc. so information gets siloed across all of these and email as well.

00;03;08;22 - 00;03;30;05
Sri Ganesan
You can imagine. And everyone does also stuff an email. And then also the work gets siloed, which means, you know, there's there's tasks, small things that you need to do emerging from something you documented on email saying, hey, here's the action items from a meeting. There's something else that's in the project management tool. There's a comment on a document that needs to still be resolved.

00;03;30;07 - 00;04;00;14
Sri Ganesan
So work becomes too siloed. It's spread across too thin in different places. It's hard for anyone to be on top of it. And along this journey, the internal team and the customer are on a different page, right? Like you have a version of everything internally, you have a version that you've exposed to the customer. Everyone feels it's a little bit of a black box as to what's really happening, what's happening in the customer's mind the customer is anxious about, hey, are you really going to deliver on time?

00;04;00;16 - 00;04;19;22
Sri Ganesan
Because all they see is like a status update or a weekly status report you publish each week. So a lot of anxiety, mistrust along the way that builds up. People are not on the same page, and things do get dropped as well because of how siloed information and what this.

00;04;19;25 - 00;04;58;29
Wayne Turmel
Now, project management is one of the first areas that really embraced and figured out remote work. And when I say figure it out at least enough to make it happen, right? You remember working on remote projects back in the 90s and what? What has gotten easier over the years with remote project teams and what still remains a bear that we just haven't done as well as we might.

00;04;59;02 - 00;05;33;04
Sri Ganesan
I think what's gotten easier to just meeting more often, I think people have just gotten used to the fact that, hey, there's going to be zoom meetings every other day that we need to jump on and keep each other updated. I think the practice of project management has evolved so much that those who are in the know around those practices do a great job of surfacing risk earlier, being transparent about where things stand, calling out you know, things that need to be resolved, across teams, etc. but it's not necessarily something that everyone still does.

00;05;33;05 - 00;05;49;14
Sri Ganesan
Right? I think those who are who have embraced project management over a period of time as a practice have evolved to a state where they're able to do a great job of all of this. But you wouldn't find this to be universally true. What else has become one of the.

00;05;49;17 - 00;06;11;14
Wayne Turmel
One of the things that and I'm throwing you this curveball. So if the answer is you don't know, that's an acceptable answer. But I know that, Project Management Institute and the PIM Borg had instituted a lot of knowledge about what project management is. And I know that plays a role in the fact that people are getting better at it all the time.

00;06;11;16 - 00;06;20;23
Wayne Turmel
Has the Pim Bork adjusted to remote work as well as it might, or what's it missing?

00;06;20;26 - 00;06;43;13
Sri Ganesan
I would say the principles are, you know, universal in the sense that it doesn't matter if it's a team doing things remotely versus a doing team getting together in person, but it's more about, I would say not everyone is going to be a PMP, the new.

00;06;43;14 - 00;07;04;00
Wayne Turmel
Project management professional. And my apologies for throwing Pim back out there. Like everybody knows what it is. That is the project manager Book of Knowledge, the One Ring to rule them all. Project management is industry looks at. So my apologies to the to the listeners who just went Yeah.

00;07;04;00 - 00;07;11;13
Sri Ganesan
So like likewise, my apologies to throwing PMP as a term, but you would see if someone is a PMP you would see it on their LinkedIn. Right? Like the.

00;07;11;13 - 00;07;16;00
Wayne Turmel
Name. Oh, they are not shy about telling you if they're.

00;07;16;02 - 00;07;44;17
Sri Ganesan
My what what I've seen is we are increasingly moving to a world where people are not specialists in project management. Not every project, a big project has an engagement manager, a project manager assigned. But very often people are expected to play that dual role of, hey, I'm, I'm working on the things that need to get done, but I'm also managing the project, in which case, I think, you know, the expertise in project management is not going to be there.

00;07;44;20 - 00;08;32;19
Sri Ganesan
But you expect that with tools that are available, you get the job done. You you know, there's enough, that that you have to, tool systems, emails, etc., that you still should manage to get the project delivered successfully without a full time expert project manager. And that's that's where I think things actually break down. It's true that not every project deserves a full time project manager, but the systems need to adapt and and help bridge the gap in a better way around best practices around governance for projects, etc. because the people you know, and then they're running their first few projects or even later are not necessarily well attuned to.

00;08;32;21 - 00;08;46;02
Sri Ganesan
If you go to any SAS company, for example, the implementation teams there typically are not PMP certified. So you need to deal with that reality in how you deliver on your projects successfully. Even without that kind of expertise.

00;08;46;05 - 00;09;14;15
Wayne Turmel
Well, what you just said is really important because yes, you know, there are project managers and there are official projects, but every leader on the planet deals with projects and, you know, ranging from organizing Alice's birthday party in the break room to huge, you know, system changes. I guess there are two sides to this. One is that my experience?

00;09;14;15 - 00;09;44;09
Wayne Turmel
Is that project teams, project managers are not necessarily the manager of the people on the team. Right. So there is a little bit of you're my project manager, but I answer to Bob. And so there are these, conflicting priorities. Sometimes miscommunication. Can technology help us address that?

00;09;44;11 - 00;10;07;07
Sri Ganesan
Absolutely. I think there's a few. I mean, you made a very good point around you're responsible to get things done on time, but you're not the boss of most of the people on the project. As a project manager and think about customer facing projects where you also need inputs from customers, approvals from customers, things to happen on time, from the customer side.

00;10;07;09 - 00;10;30;26
Sri Ganesan
And you're definitely not the boss of your customer. So how do you handle that? Right? The way I've seen things. Then when you don't have the right technology, the team member is always worrying about, like the project manager or the person assuming that role for the project is worried about, hey, I just asked the customer about this yesterday.

00;10;31;04 - 00;10;49;06
Sri Ganesan
Is it okay for me to ask about it again today, or should I give it a couple of days? Even for an internal team member, I. Hey, the last time I asked about it, they said they'll get back in a week. Should I follow up midweek? About. Hey, are we on track still or is it going to get too annoying if I keep doing this?

00;10;49;09 - 00;11;18;27
Sri Ganesan
So there are these soft software aspects, right? And, you know, there's a gentleman, one of my customers once asked me, how does the project get delayed? And the answer to that was, you know, I came up with various reasons, like, why does the project get delayed? Here are like ten reasons why a project gets delayed. And he said, hey, you know, the question was, how does a project get delayed?

00;11;18;27 - 00;11;59;26
Sri Ganesan
And the answer is one day at a time. So his input was that every day matters, right? And you need to get really tight on your execution for you to actually deliver on time. You're not going to manage to keep a project on track if you don't have that tight governance around how things are happening. And I think the right tool can actually help you with that governance and automation around the governance so that it's not down to, hey, I have this hero project manager here who does a great job every single time and is on top of things and knows when to follow up, but it's more system driven.

00;12;00;03 - 00;12;18;12
Sri Ganesan
So can we move from hero driven to system driven? I think that's the responsibility of a great client. Facing project delivery to a great PSA will throw risks at using hey, this project has a schedule risk, a scope risk, a budget risk, etc. so that you get ahead of the problems.

00;12;18;15 - 00;12;52;04
Wayne Turmel
I think that is such an important point, and I think on remote teams, because you can't just poke your head over somebody's cube when there's a problem. I think that it's really important to remember that systems are replicable and heroes seldom are. It's way easier to build a good system that people can plug into than it is to try to create a whole bunch of great project managers.

00;12;52;06 - 00;13;15;29
Sri Ganesan
Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's not just for internal when you're working with the customer. It's also about, do you have a sense of what's what's going on in the customer's mind in a remote world? You see them on zoom for like one hour every alternate day maybe, and you don't necessarily. You're paying attention to what you're presenting and how someone reacted to that.

00;13;16;01 - 00;13;38;21
Sri Ganesan
You're not necessarily gauging what else is running on their mind, and very often, you know, you think things are going great. And then there is an escalation from the customer. And by the time that escalation comes in, it's too late to recover from that. There's there's so much that has built up in the customer's mind around what's working, what's not working, why this partnership is good or not good anymore.

00;13;38;24 - 00;14;07;15
Sri Ganesan
And that's led to that escalation. Whereas if you have a great system, the system should capture along the journey. What's the sentiment of the customer as well and help you get ahead of a problem the first time you have a three star rating for like a workshop or a training or something else you did with the customer, is a great opportunity for your leader to connect with them, saying, hey, what could have made this a five star experience?

00;14;07;18 - 00;14;19;26
Sri Ganesan
And, you know, turn things around if you have if you don't know about like if it's a one star experience, you hear about it because there's someone shouting at you already. Yeah, but if it's multiple three star.

00;14;19;26 - 00;14;50;13
Wayne Turmel
About it very quickly and then actually, I think is a point whether you're using project management software or not on remote teams, I think it's really critical that there are the big check ins, right? The the meetings, the conversations. But there's also this constant feedback loop of the ability to check in, the ability to just check a number rather than call a meeting.

00;14;50;13 - 00;15;20;06
Wayne Turmel
The, you know, that information needs to be flowing both ways all the time. And that's just true of remote work, right? If you wait until there's a big challenge, it's very often too late or it's created way more drama than it needs to. Let me ask you this. We're going to switch gears just a bit as the guy running the company, right, has the CEO.

00;15;20;08 - 00;15;44;05
Wayne Turmel
And I know that just because people make a certain software or have a certain expertise, doesn't mean they always execute perfectly. So what are the things that you wish your team did better? And how do you handle it? Because you're sitting in Lehigh Utah, and they're not. Yeah.

00;15;44;08 - 00;16;13;20
Sri Ganesan
So we actually have, team members globally now, of course, as you would expect. And I think the way we've thought about this is we look at it from the customer's perspective. What is the journey that a customer is going through with us when you are executing on a project? So our projects, for example, are we are delivering like we are implementing our own software as a project and it is project management software.

00;16;13;20 - 00;16;36;08
Sri Ganesan
Of course, that's it's sort of a I think question over there. But but we are implementing using our own software. So we need to come across as the experts. We need to be one of the best customers of our own. Software is not the best. And we learn from our customers all the time. But we sort of engineered a lot of things to get this right.

00;16;36;08 - 00;17;13;06
Sri Ganesan
I would say it starts at making a great first impression and setting expectations right very early. So that kickoff meeting, even right from kickoff and kickoff, I think there's a lot of effort that's gone into perfecting what needs to happen over there. How do we help customers see us as experts early on? How do we help create a few teaching moments, even from the kickoff meeting where the customer walks away from that meeting thinking, hey, I learned something today from the Rocket Lab team that I can put in use in my projects with my customers.

00;17;13;08 - 00;17;43;23
Sri Ganesan
It's also about, you know, getting their permission for, hey, we're going to be intense in this project. That's our style. Are you okay with that? So one of the questions we ask in the kickoff meeting is what should we do if your team is not reacting or responding to what we need on time and with the exec sponsor on the other side, usually they're going to say, hey, if there's a day of delay on your site, suffice it to me, I'm happy to figure out like how to solve this and move things forward.

00;17;43;25 - 00;18;10;12
Sri Ganesan
But I want to hear early because the exec wants to hear early and we are thinking about, hey, Will, will we be throwing someone under the bus, should we escalate or not, etc. but now you have the permission from the leader saying, hey, here's the way you're going to operate, here's what's going to happen every week. So that's those are some things that we've done early in the journey and then throughout the journey, if it's a large project, as you said, there's like a steering committee meeting that happens.

00;18;10;14 - 00;18;23;28
Sri Ganesan
But for smaller projects, we have a set that goes out automatically for every deliverable along the way. So you catch sentiment problems early. You also catch like a critical milestone, slipping early.

00;18;24;00 - 00;18;49;15
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I want those of you who are listening who are not necessarily project managers. I don't want what Sri just said to slide by because it's something not enough people ask, which is you're talking to your customer, you're talking to your stakeholder, and you want to say, hey, everything's going to be great. And here's what we're going to do.

00;18;49;17 - 00;19;22;17
Wayne Turmel
But pointing out if there is a problem, how do you want to handle it as quickly as you can? And getting agreement on what that is prevents so much drama. And and Shree, thank you, because I haven't heard anybody actually put that into the process. And I think that's really important. We are running out of time. Sri, what is the one thing that you want to leave with the folks who are listening?

00;19;22;25 - 00;19;41;06
Wayne Turmel
We will have links to Rocketlane. We will have links to the demo. We will have links to Sri in our show notes, but, Sri, what's one piece of brilliance that you want to leave our listeners with?

00;19;41;08 - 00;19;48;15
Sri Ganesan
I'll say two things, if that's fine. One is. Oh, fine. I would say just remember that.

00;19;48;17 - 00;20;09;00
Sri Ganesan
I would say one thing for any project team to remember is if you're working with the customer on a project, the ball is always in your court. You may believe that it's in the customer's code, but you still need to internalize that it's still on you to hold them accountable and make things happen because you don't want finger pointing later.

00;20;09;03 - 00;20;47;12
Sri Ganesan
The exact on the customer side, you know, trusted you to deliver as a team, and that includes making their team do work on time. So that's one second I would say is pay attention to what's happening in the last year and a half around AI, because it's going to change a lot in this space. You need to, if you're like in your budgeting season budget for I need to do some AI experiments to to figure out how to make my team more efficient, to get more, you know, high quality, work, focus on our team versus like the mundane tasks that people are doing, etc..

00;20;47;12 - 00;21;03;03
Sri Ganesan
Right. So I think very important for us to actively be experimenting with new AI tools in this space and to ensure that we are getting ahead of the game and equipping ourselves and our teams to to embrace what's coming our way.

00;21;03;05 - 00;21;16;25
Wayne Turmel
Without going down the rabbit hole. Because, boy, that's a big rabbit hole. What is one thing that you think AI is going to change about the way rocket land works?

00;21;16;28 - 00;21;41;23
Sri Ganesan
We already have a bunch of things that have come in that use AI to make our teams, the teams that use rocket, land more productive, but I feel the biggest thing is, again, the system identifying opportunities, risks, you know, things to surface for at a county level, not just one project, but you're running multiple projects with customers across a project.

00;21;41;23 - 00;22;06;06
Sri Ganesan
You're playing on different calls and emails and so on. How do we identify risks? Early problems early surfaced not letting it to be something that someone needs to raise their hand and say, I need help, but instead the system saying, hey, pay attention. This project. Someone needs to look at what's happening over here so that a leader can help resolve things before something goes south.

00;22;06;06 - 00;22;08;20
Sri Ganesan
So catch it while it goes sideways, not after.

00;22;08;27 - 00;22;41;14
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So it's surfacing things proactively. Yeah, that's very cool. Thank you I appreciate that. I am going to excuse me for just a moment while I tell you that, you know, leadership is an important part, whether it's project leadership or traditional leadership. Kevin Eikenberry in my new book, The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership, that is the second edition updated for 2024.

00;22;41;20 - 00;23;24;09
Wayne Turmel
You can find out more about that at long distance. Kevin eikenberry.com/ldl or long distance work life.com/ldl. And the book is now available on audible. If you enjoyed the show, please like subscribe, listen to past episodes. If you have an idea for, topics for guests, if you have comments, questions, vicious personal attacks, you can contact us directly Wayne at Kevin eikenberry.com Marissa at Kevin I can barrie.com or through LinkedIn for either of us or the long distance work life page.

00;23;24;11 - 00;23;48;17
Wayne Turmel
You know what? The world is changing so fast, and that's why we're here. As I said, we will have links to Straight to Rocketlane. You can learn more about the software, on our show notes. Long distance work life.com. That's it for another week. I'll be back with Marissa. Marissa. Next week we will be having a really fun conversation.

00;23;48;17 - 00;23;55;01
Wayne Turmel
You want to check that out? And in the meantime, my name is Wayne Turmel. Don't let the weasels get you down.

00;23;55;04 - 00;23;59;07



00;23;59;09 - 00;24;04;09



00;24;04;11 - 00;24;08;14



00;24;08;17 - 00;24;08;28




Timestamps

00:00 Welcome to Long-Distance Worklife
00:36 Introduction to Rocketlane
02:09 The Problems with Current Project Tools
04:00 Challenges in Remote Project Management
06:11 Adapting PM Standards for Remote Work
08:32 Dual Roles in Project Management
10:07 Building Trust with Client Projects
12:18 Moving from Heroic to System-Driven PM
13:16 Gauging Client Sentiment Remotely
15:20 Managing Global Teams and Expectations
18:10 Proactive Project Management Techniques
20:47 The Role of AI in Project Management
22:41 Final Thoughts and Resources
23:48 Closing Remarks

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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Staying Connected When Natural Disasters Disrupt Remote Teams
Ask Wayne Anything, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Staying Connected When Natural Disasters Disrupt Remote Teams

Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry dive into a topic often overlooked—natural disasters and how they impact remote and hybrid work environments. As hurricanes, blizzards, and wildfires increase, so does the need for effective business continuity plans. Wayne and Marisa discuss real-world stories and provide insights on how companies can balance employee safety with the need for operational continuity. They cover essential strategies like communication protocols, cloud-based backups, risk assessment, and creating an emergency contact directory, offering practical advice to help remote teams stay connected and productive during crises.

Key Takeaways

1. The Importance of Preparedness: Why every organization needs a disaster preparedness plan, especially in areas prone to natural calamities.
2. Real-World Consequences: Wayne shares a cautionary story about a company that delayed evacuation, resulting in tragic consequences.
3. Remote Work’s Role in Crisis Management: How remote and hybrid work setups can offer flexibility and continuity when disaster strikes.
4. Communication Protocols and Access Plans: Ensuring that every team member has access to essential data and knows how to communicate their availability during outages.
5. Human-Centric Leadership: The significance of showing grace and understanding toward employees facing personal crises during natural disasters.

View Full Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;14;12
Marisa Eikenberry
When disaster strikes, what happens to your work, whether it's hurricanes, floods or blizzards? These events can disrupt our lives and our jobs in an instant. As your workplace prepared.

00;00;14;14 - 00;00;28;23
Marisa Eikenberry
You. Welcome back to the long distance work life. We help you live, work, and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Mercer, I can marry a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Trimble. Hi, Wayne.

00;00;28;25 - 00;00;46;24
Wayne Turmel
Hello there. Marissa. Hello, listeners. Greetings from Las Vegas, where we have set a record for days over 100 degrees, and people are melting on the sidewalk. And so does rasters. And nature and stuff is very much on people's minds.

00;00;46;27 - 00;01;17;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? And so, listeners, as we are recording this, Hurricane Helen just came through, multiple states in the past weekend. And so we thought that this would be a really interesting episode while we dive into a very critical topic, which is how workplace workplaces handle natural disasters and ensure that business continues while keeping employees safe. So, Wayne, I just want to start off by saying, like, you know, all of these different things happen blizzards, wildfires, we've heard different stuff.

00;01;17;28 - 00;01;31;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, definitely. Over the past couple of years. And how can organizations ensure that business continuity while prioritizing employees safety during these natural disasters? Because, like business can always stop? Yeah.

00;01;31;13 - 00;02;01;10
Wayne Turmel
Therein lies the problem. What I am going to say is based merely on multiple news reports. I'm not taking it from a single source, and I don't know the veracity of it, but we know of at least one company in Tennessee. People wanted to evacuate the workplace. The employer said no until it was too late, and there were 10 or 11 fatalities as a result.

00;02;01;12 - 00;02;30;15
Wayne Turmel
This is thankfully not common, but it ain't unheard of either, right? So this is a very real thing, and you can be cynical and say this ties to the whole work in the office presenteeism kind of thing. But it's also companies are trying to make a living, and they're trying to get as much work done as they can before the storm or the fire or whatever it is happens.

00;02;30;15 - 00;02;34;06
Wayne Turmel
And, you know, we we guess wrong, right?

00;02;34;12 - 00;02;36;17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Weather can be unpredictable in that way.

00;02;36;20 - 00;03;03;25
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So I am not casting blame other than to say that it happens. Right. But that does raise the issue of with sufficient warning. What are the company's plans. How much of a company's work can in fact be done off site. And this is where to say we are going to abandon remote work and everybody get back to the office.

00;03;03;27 - 00;03;34;28
Wayne Turmel
This is exactly the kind of thing that one faces. Before Covid, companies were starting to put call them business continuity plans. Call them what you want in place. And some of this is helped by the fact that so much is now on the cloud, or that the servers are somewhere other than the office. I mean, 1520 years ago your office had a huge server farm in it, and if your office went down, so did everything you own then?

00;03;34;28 - 00;04;07;01
Wayne Turmel
No. Right. That's that's less and less the case now for most organizations. So you know, what is the plan? First of all, for the data, your business has to survive. Your company has to survive. And then how do you ensure that people can get at it? And if you are in a cloud environment, if you are in a paid server environment where the servers are somewhere other than where you are, and if you're experiencing the disaster, hopefully your servers are not.

00;04;07;03 - 00;04;33;20
Wayne Turmel
But ready. What is the plan? And I think that organizations need to have a plan that says even people who don't normally work outside of the office need to know how to access the data. They need to know how to if they're on a VPN, they need to know how to do that. There needs to be there.

00;04;33;21 - 00;04;42;25
Wayne Turmel
And ironically, you know, if you put it in a manual, in the manuals in the office and the office is no longer there, that's a point.

00;04;42;27 - 00;04;43;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;04;43;06 - 00;05;01;19
Wayne Turmel
And I, you know, I say that I'm not making light of the situation clearly. So the first thing is think about it from an organization standpoint. If something happens, I mean, we talk in the office all the time about what if Kevin gets hit by a bus?

00;05;01;22 - 00;05;08;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yep. We've said that about many, many people on our team just because of how integral they are.

00;05;08;26 - 00;05;22;08
Wayne Turmel
Right. We don't want that to happen. We clearly keep you know, we keep him wrapped in bubble wrap when he's not in the office. But you have to have those conversations, and it's irresponsible not to.

00;05;22;10 - 00;05;22;28
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;05;23;00 - 00;05;45;05
Wayne Turmel
If you live in a place that is prone to hurricanes, if you live in a place that is prone to winter blizzards, if you are, you know, whatever it is that needs to be addressed. How do people, the as many people as possible, continue to keep the business afloat? And if you haven't had that conversation, you'd better have.

00;05;45;05 - 00;06;16;14
Wayne Turmel
And if people don't have access codes and they don't have, I mean, I I've heard of people who, when they return to the office after Covid, lost their access to the VPN. Is that really what you want? Mr.. Mrs.. Business owner. So you need to think about that. You also need to and this is best done I think on a team by team basis is does everybody know where everybody is.

00;06;16;16 - 00;06;44;14
Wayne Turmel
Do they? I'll never forget I had an instructor in one of the buildings at the World Trade Center. Wow. The day that 911 and I spent 14 really bad hours waiting to hear from that person. She was safe. She was fine. She got out at the first sign of danger of building all of that good stuff. But for 14 hours, we didn't know where she was, let.

00;06;44;14 - 00;06;45;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Alone.

00;06;45;21 - 00;06;54;18
Wayne Turmel
What she was doing with the business. Whether what was going on with the client. None of that. We didn't physically know if she was still with us. Right.

00;06;54;21 - 00;06;56;21
Marisa Eikenberry
That's terrifying.

00;06;56;22 - 00;07;23;25
Wayne Turmel
So do people know when there is a disaster? Is there a plan for letting your peers and your boss know you're okay? Letting your peers and your boss know I have internet access and I am available, right? Because some people, if you have internet access, there are things that I could do in your absence, but only if I know that you don't have the internet access.

00;07;23;27 - 00;07;41;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, I was going to say with that example, we have a person on our team, Guy Harris, who, he's in South Carolina. So while his home is safe and his family is safe, he was hit by a lot of the storm and, like, didn't have power and didn't have internet and thankfully had a generator. But it can only do so much.

00;07;41;10 - 00;08;00;27
Marisa Eikenberry
And he called me very early on to be like, hey, like, I need you to take care of all the disk or disk, support tickets, because I can't help you unless you know, we need to have a phone call about something. But, like, he physically could not get into the back end to help me with anything. And so he made sure to let me know.

00;08;00;29 - 00;08;16;02
Wayne Turmel
So, is there a plan? Right. Do you have the home phone? Numbers are no longer a thing. But do you have the cell, the personal cell number of all your employees? And do they have each other right?

00;08;16;02 - 00;08;19;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Or directory somewhere that they can access.

00;08;19;07 - 00;08;33;06
Wayne Turmel
Is there a directory that exists? I know teams that put each other in their contact list, because having an online resource doesn't help if you can't get online, right.

00;08;33;08 - 00;08;34;08
Marisa Eikenberry
That's fair.

00;08;34;11 - 00;08;46;06
Wayne Turmel
That's a decision, right? You can decide do people want to be that connected to each other? You assume that everybody's going to be a grown up and behave responsibly right now.

00;08;46;06 - 00;08;48;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Drug text Susan at two in the morning.

00;08;48;22 - 00;09;26;20
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, but that's a that's a very concrete thing, right, that you can do to help make sure that that happens. So you need to think about what's going to happen before it happens. Now, I am firmly of the belief that every time one of these disaster have disasters and somebody gets convinced that maybe remote work is not the worst thing that could happen, because even if everybody is physically safe, even if everybody's homes are physically safe, if the office is damaged, if the roads are impassable.

00;09;26;22 - 00;09;33;05
Wayne Turmel
If any of that is going on, could we rarely meet somewhere else and still function well?

00;09;33;05 - 00;09;34;10
Marisa Eikenberry
And on that same.

00;09;34;10 - 00;09;35;03
Wayne Turmel
That line.

00;09;35;04 - 00;09;56;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Is. Yeah. Well, I was going to say on that same line, you know, for people who have teams that are working from home and stuff like that, I mean, there's still thunderstorms, snow, you know, lots of rain might cause flooding or whatever. Like, you know, we've all been in situations of, hey, we got a really bad storm here.

00;09;56;20 - 00;10;18;28
Marisa Eikenberry
I don't have internet or I don't have power. Right now, but it doesn't make sense to go into the office or in your case, your states away from the office. It doesn't make sense to do that. Like what level of flexibility should companies be offering employees for dealing with things like power outages and internet disruptions or personal crises, even during a disaster or just severe weather?

00;10;18;29 - 00;10;46;13
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think that this there's several levels to this, right? On the most basic level, you need to sit and think about what risk analysis is, what are the odds of something happen. And what are the results of it. Did that's risk analysis in a nutshell, right? So have you done a risk analysis on your business. Right. What business absolutely has to be done out of the office.

00;10;46;15 - 00;11;08;26
Wayne Turmel
What can be duplicated conducted elsewhere, whatever. And then what are the plans for that on an H.R level, it's yes, the company is fine, but Maurice's house just got washed away, right? First of all, odds are she's not coming into work a few days.

00;11;08;29 - 00;11;11;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I got other priorities right.

00;11;11;09 - 00;11;37;02
Wayne Turmel
And do we have an ability to absorb that or are we going to stick to the. Well, that's personal time. And you've got five days to get your insurance together because after that we ain't paying you. And these conversations happen and they happen all the time. We are very blessed. I mean, we have had some interesting things in this organization in the last year.

00;11;37;05 - 00;11;59;27
Wayne Turmel
I'm about to go out for my second knee replacement in a year, and we've kind of worked around that in terms of time off and all of that. And it's all very civilized. Guy is stuck in a hurricane zone at the moment, you know, as an organization, we have decided we want to take care of each other.

00;12;00;02 - 00;12;17;29
Wayne Turmel
Right. And there is a mechanism in place for that. Right? First of all, there's a lot of grace. There's a lot of people pitching in and helping each other. That's really the kind of thing that it can happen on the spur of the moment. But boy, it's easier if you've planned it.

00;12;18;01 - 00;12;36;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Well, I was going to say like, you know, I, I know that there's also been situations too, where it's like, this thing is not important right now. You know, speaking of spur of the moment, like, you know, my stepdad died last year and I was out for a week because it was just I just can't right now.

00;12;36;10 - 00;12;56;11
Marisa Eikenberry
And so it was like, podcast didn't get edited like this show didn't happen for a week or two. Like, and I don't want to say like everybody was okay with that. But it was grace was given. Right. You figure out what's the what's the biggest priority here. And frankly, it's not that well.

00;12;56;14 - 00;13;19;28
Wayne Turmel
And there are organizations that will tell you that that is the priority. And get your butt back here. We've seen we've seen it time and time again. Again. This is where the possibility of remote work, the idea of even if it's not all the time, can you access the data that you need? Can you reach your customers? Can you reach your teammates?

00;13;20;01 - 00;13;24;01
Wayne Turmel
Do we know if we can't reach the boss who does what?

00;13;24;03 - 00;13;24;14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;13;24;20 - 00;13;53;22
Wayne Turmel
Those conversations are uncomfortable and they're weird, but you have to have them. And teams that have had those conversations and they know if something happens to Guy, Marissa handles that. If something happens to somebody else, you know, I know the intricate workings of a couple of people here in job, right? If I have to step in, at least short term, I can do that.

00;13;53;24 - 00;13;56;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Basically, make sure you have a backup person.

00;13;56;24 - 00;14;27;28
Wayne Turmel
We've talked about it and we've planned for it a lot of companies. And this is where bad managers get in trouble, because if you weren't used to delegating, if you are used to doing everything yourself, if you don't share the passwords and the information and the workflows and the relationships with other people in the company. If you haven't included your team on that and built into that because you are so important, God forbid something happened to you.

00;14;28;00 - 00;14;28;21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;14;28;23 - 00;14;46;13
Wayne Turmel
And you know, this gets back to ripen. Wrapping Kevin in bubble wrap. Clearly it's a founder led company. That's a very serious thing. Right. But we can hold the fort for a bit.

00;14;46;16 - 00;14;58;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. I was going to say and and to your point, like there are plans in place if something should happen, like he's got stuff written down in places and knows who to contact and like we know what to do.

00;14;58;22 - 00;15;25;25
Wayne Turmel
But this all boils down to a couple of things. First of all, you have to trust your employees. You have to trust. And Covid proved this almost beyond a reasonable doubt. You know, if we send people to work from home, they're going to slack off. They're nothing. It's not true. When there is a crisis and Covid was a crisis, when there is something that happens, people naturally pull together.

00;15;25;25 - 00;15;47;14
Wayne Turmel
I know Americans like to think they're the only ones that do it, but no, people do that right. They help each other, they come together, they do what they do. So your employees want the company to exist. Your employees want each other to be successful. They want to stay employed. If you want to, you know? Yeah.

00;15;47;17 - 00;15;49;07
Marisa Eikenberry
Hiring like a paycheck.

00;15;49;10 - 00;16;14;01
Wayne Turmel
That's, you know, for the short term, people will move heaven and earth and they will make it happen. But you have to help them achieve it. So have the conversations have not just a central location. I mean, it's great to have everything in a filing cabinet, but if there is a raging wildfire between me and the filing cabinet, that's not going to help.

00;16;14;03 - 00;16;17;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Right. I do have one last question for you.

00;16;17;07 - 00;16;34;26
Wayne Turmel
It just hasn't been being and I'm not being facetious other than my normal smart Alec self. This is serious stuff that needs to be done. But they're uncomfortable and they're weird, and there's always something more important that we have to do until there is right.

00;16;34;28 - 00;16;53;05
Marisa Eikenberry
And we've talked a lot about business continuity and things like that. But one of the things that, one of my last questions for you is like, how can organizations provide meaningful support both during or after a disaster, to employees who are being affected by this and, you know, like home damage, family safety, that kind of stuff?

00;16;53;05 - 00;16;58;28
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, we've already talked about like checking in and, you know, okay, what can I take from you? But like, what about the person itself?

00;16;59;03 - 00;17;04;22
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, a lot of that is just human grace and kindness.

00;17;04;25 - 00;17;06;16
Marisa Eikenberry
A strange concept, right?

00;17;06;19 - 00;17;37;28
Wayne Turmel
Well, it is, and when everybody is affected, it's very difficult to if there's a team member that I don't normally work with or that I'm not really close to, it might feel uncomfortable and weird. Right? For me to to reach out to them or to offer them something. But generally, most teams have somebody speaking very generically, politically and incorrectly.

00;17;38;00 - 00;18;05;10
Wayne Turmel
Eight times out of ten, it's a woman. That's where is the connector, who knows what's going on and will organize getting food to somebody or making sure that somebody has a roof if they need one or whatever that is. And we need to encourage those types of relationships, and we need to encourage those kinds of people on our teams.

00;18;05;12 - 00;18;09;14
Marisa Eikenberry
I would also encourage having a back that is one of those two.

00;18;09;16 - 00;18;11;03
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And the backup, one.

00;18;11;03 - 00;18;21;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Of those, I mean, legitimately, because we had that happen where our connector had an issue and we all had a moment of, oh crap, who is it now? We figured it out, but still.

00;18;21;03 - 00;18;38;25
Wayne Turmel
And figured it out pretty quickly because we wanted to we cared. We care about our teammates. We care about all the people that we work with, and employers are shocked at how much we care about them. Right? They really are. How?

00;18;38;27 - 00;19;02;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, Wayne, thank you so much for this. And listeners, if any of you or family members, relatives, friends are affected by the most recent hurricane, our thoughts and prayers are with you. But before we go, I do want to let you know that the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is now available. This updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

00;19;02;04 - 00;19;27;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Kevin, I can Mary Wayne Trammell show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Order your copy now! At Long Day's Work life.com/ldl and strengthen your leadership skills today. Thank you for listening to the Long Distance Worklife. For Shownotes transcripts and other resources, make sure to visit Longest Work life.com.

00;19;27;10 - 00;19;47;17
Marisa Eikenberry
And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating or review. This helps us know what you love about our show and reach more listeners just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know you listen to this episode, or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00;19;47;22 - 00;19;53;14
Marisa Eikenberry
We would love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weeds get you down. Hey.


Timestamps

00:00 Introduction: Why Disaster Preparedness Matters
02:01 The High Cost of Delayed Evacuation
04:07 Ensuring Data Accessibility for Remote Teams
08:33 Building a Team Directory and Backup Contacts
12:00 Offering Employees Grace During Crises
15:00 Trust in Remote Employees During Disasters
19:02 Wrap-Up: The Importance of Proactive Disaster Planning

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Read More
Guests, Hybrid Work, Working Remotely

Flexible Workspaces and the Future of Work with Sam Rosen

Wayne Turmel is joined by Sam Rosen, the founder of Deskpass, to explore how the office landscape has changed in recent years. Sam shares his journey from opening one of Chicago’s first co-working spaces to developing tools that connect companies and remote workers with flexible workspaces. They discuss the evolving role of offices, how companies can make strategic real estate decisions, and the benefits of offering co-working options to remote and hybrid teams. Sam also dives into the differences between designing workspaces with a human-centered approach versus the traditional real estate mindset. Tune in to discover how you can leverage flexible spaces to improve productivity and retain top talent.

Key Takeaways

  • Flexible workspaces provide a valuable alternative to traditional offices, offering professional environments tailored to diverse work needs.
  • A human-centered design approach prioritizes worker needs over merely filling office space, unlike traditional real estate perspectives.
  • Companies are reducing their office footprints to save costs while using co-working spaces to maintain access to professional environments.
  • Proximity and convenience are key benefits of co-working spaces, making them ideal when working from home isn't suitable.
  • In-person meetings should be reserved for deep collaboration or cultural reinforcement, with a focus on asynchronous work whenever possible.
  • Successful remote companies prioritize culture, communication tools, and processes over physical office space.
  • Access to flexible workspaces helps attract and retain talent, expanding the hiring pool and supporting employees' varied work preferences.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;27 - 00;00;37;23
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Long Distance Worklife, the podcast where we attempt to help you thrive. Survive, generally keep the Weasels Hat Bay when we are dealing with remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Trammell. I am the subject matter for remote work and the evolving workplace at the Kevin Eikenberry Group. My usual partner and producer, Marissa is not here today.

00;00;37;25 - 00;01;03;11
Wayne Turmel
The good news is that means we have an interview with a fabulous guest, in this case, Sam Rosen from Desk Pass, who is going to talk to us about the changes that digital work have wrought upon us over the last couple of years. And so, with no further ado, joining us from Chicago is Sam Rosen. Hi, Sam.

00;01;03;13 - 00;01;05;24
Sam Rosen
Hi, Wayne. Thanks for having me, man.

00;01;05;26 - 00;01;13;07
Wayne Turmel
Thank you for being had a, real quick. Who are you and what steps pass and why do we care?

00;01;13;10 - 00;01;38;02
Sam Rosen
Good question. I'm sam, and, I run a little business called that space I've been in, sort of the intersection of design and technology and where in how we work for about 15 years. So I started by, started a branding design agency and then opened the first co-working space in Chicago, where there are about 300 in the whole world now.

00;01;38;02 - 00;02;05;06
Sam Rosen
There's 40, 50,000. And since then, I've been building tools and technology around this problem. So today, I work on desktops. I'm the founder of that space. And that space is a tool that really connects individuals and companies with thousands and thousands of fantastic, flexible workspaces, co-working spaces, you know, places to book a desk for a day, meeting for an hour, private office, all on demand.

00;02;05;06 - 00;02;06;26
Sam Rosen
And that's that's what I do.

00;02;06;28 - 00;02;22;17
Wayne Turmel
All right. So whenever anybody creates a technology or does anything like that, they're clearly trying to solve for a problem. So what was the problem you were trying to solve for, with past?

00;02;22;20 - 00;02;50;09
Sam Rosen
Yeah. You know, it's funny because a lot of people in this space now, come from finance and come from real estate. And I've always come from design, and just trying to solve problems for humans. So, coming across co-working really, really early realized that was a really interesting solution to offer a place for people who want to work but necessarily don't work for the same company and just are looking for a space to get work done nearby.

00;02;50;09 - 00;03;19;08
Sam Rosen
So, and I found that to be really interesting and a new problem. And then the, the other problem was, and I think this is more clear than ever, is, offices have always been pretty empty. Offices are traditionally fairly underutilized, and that's one of the biggest asset classes in the world. So the opportunity to create something out of empty office space and share it with people so they can be happy and get good work done, is seemed like a good problem to solve.

00;03;19;10 - 00;03;39;16
Wayne Turmel
Now. You said something a moment ago, which I've dealt with remote work for 25 years. I should have thought of this, and for some reason I had a blinding flash of the obvious, which is it makes sense for real estate people to get involved in this, because there's all these offices sitting empty, and how are we going to find uses for them?

00;03;39;19 - 00;03;51;10
Wayne Turmel
What in your mind is the difference between coming at it from a real estate standpoint, where it's desks and rooms and whatever, and a design standpoint?

00;03;51;12 - 00;04;19;09
Sam Rosen
You know, I think the perspective we've always had is like, who's way, what is what is waiting live? Who does he live with? Where can he focus and get work done? And how do you build a really brilliant environment for Wayne to get his best work done, irrespective of everything else? And I think often folks that come from real estate and finance are just they're they're trying to put pegs and holes, right.

00;04;19;09 - 00;04;51;17
Sam Rosen
Which is there's empty office space. Let's fill it up. And I think for me, from the design perspective, I think for a long time the experience for workers was really driven around, you know, the the bank that owns the building, the management company that manages the building, you know, supporting the owner of the company that owns the company and building a financial arrangement that works for all those parties, but less so, like Wayne and like what works best for Wayne today.

00;04;51;19 - 00;05;19;23
Sam Rosen
And I think that's where I come from is like, how do you everyone has different needs as workers depending on what company they work for, what role they're in. I got two little kiddos that live in the suburbs, you know, like my kids have Covid today. Like my needs are different today than yesterday, right. And, and I think that's what I'm really interested is solving problems around the human and less around like X, Y, Z Corp and you know, and x, y, z bank.

00;05;19;26 - 00;05;24;20
Wayne Turmel
Okay. So we've done our burn the patriarchy death to make.

00;05;24;22 - 00;05;25;02
Sam Rosen


00;05;25;04 - 00;05;57;25
Wayne Turmel
Peace with this. So let's get really practical. A lot of people, I think, think of I'm either working at home or I'm in the office. What are some of the advantages of these kind of third spaces? Because to me, having other humans around is not the most beneficial piece of this. Yeah. But I have used spaces like this before, so, you know, if somebody is thinking about when does this make sense?

00;05;57;25 - 00;06;01;07
Wayne Turmel
When does it not? What's the the answer there.

00;06;01;09 - 00;06;23;18
Sam Rosen
Yeah. Look, I think there's a lot of things that people will say about what makes a great workspace. But I think the underlying thing is proximity distance. Right. Like if I can't work from home because my kids are home or I don't have a suitable work environment, like trying to find a place close to me that's convenient to me where I don't have to commute or schlep or go.

00;06;23;18 - 00;06;49;19
Sam Rosen
That's a that's an underlying, really important piece. I think. Other than that is not all, but most of these co-working spaces and flexible workspaces, they're like very purposefully built for work. So they tend to be really thoughtful work environments that are built and amenities better than the average office. So, you know, coffee, tea, events, different types of workspaces.

00;06;49;26 - 00;07;09;10
Sam Rosen
I think these often are nicer workspaces than the average workspace. And then the last thing I'd say is I totally connect with what you're saying, which is I don't, you know, like, people need different things and they often need different things at different times. Like some days I need a quiet place to do a podcast or to work on a deck.

00;07;09;11 - 00;07;31;12
Sam Rosen
Right. And then sometimes I'm looking for community. I'm looking for inspiration. I want to be around other people. So the value of a network like that space, or just co-working spaces in general, as you can get exactly what you're looking for typically, and not like a one size fits all solution like your home or HQ.

00;07;31;14 - 00;08;17;11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's always been helpful when I'm traveling because the hotel room is not always conducive to getting work done. Between, you know, housekeeping banging on the door and, bad Wi-Fi and, you know, whatever. Yeah. So that's when I've done it. As we move more and more to hybrid work and companies are shrinking their physical footprint and doing stuff, and how if I'm the CEO of a company, you know, the notion of paying for a third space, if I'm already paying for an office, might be a bit of a tough sell.

00;08;17;11 - 00;08;19;19
Wayne Turmel
What would you tell that CEO?

00;08;19;22 - 00;08;48;05
Sam Rosen
Yeah. So I think the paradigm of office is changing in a fundamental way. Right. Like one office for everybody to solve everybody's problems. I think is the old paradigm. And I think what we found there was those offices were generally pretty inefficient, generally underutilized and expensive to maintain. I am at the office today. Like, I love them, like I believe in the whole business of selling office.

00;08;48;05 - 00;09;15;29
Sam Rosen
Right. So I think what we're seeing and the thesis that I really have in this space is this notion of office as an ecosystem. And we talked to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of companies that are thinking about this. Every company is different, different employees, different geographies, different requirements. But I think the prevailing trend that I like I've seen is, companies are, changing as leasing decisions are coming up.

00;09;15;29 - 00;09;39;19
Sam Rosen
Right? They're thinking about, okay, I have all this space. Are people coming to the office? How utilized is it? And they're not abandoning the office full sale. They're typically taking less space. They're reducing their their size of their leased or owned real estate, and they're making it more efficient. They're saying, what is the purpose of this space? This is person of the space together to sell, to do R&D.

00;09;39;22 - 00;10;00;17
Sam Rosen
And let's have fewer square feet, but let's make them better. So people want to use them. And then not mandate that people are there all the time, every day. And instead of saying you have, you can work from office or you can work from home. We're seeing companies become more inclusive and saying, we will meet you where you are, what do you need?

00;10;00;19 - 00;10;18;17
Sam Rosen
And let me help support you with what you need. The value of a a platform like this fast and not to get salesy here is it's on demand pay as you go. So what companies are doing is they're not saying here's another office we're paying for near your house. They're saying work from where you need to get work done.

00;10;18;17 - 00;10;39;06
Sam Rosen
And I've given you a $500 budget that if you want to use it, you can use any of these spaces and we'll pay for it. And then it gives companies the ability to learn like, well, what are my employees really? What? How are they really using space? And how should this, help me address my my work space and strategy in the future?

00;10;39;08 - 00;10;59;06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, and there are times when you need to have a meeting, but, you know, you don't have a space. I mean, to pay 100, 150 bucks for a meeting room for an hour that everybody can go to and then leave, is probably not a bad investment.

00;10;59;09 - 00;11;01;00
Sam Rosen
And I'd argue.

00;11;01;00 - 00;11;02;10
Wayne Turmel
It's in tonight's meetings.

00;11;02;13 - 00;11;26;14
Sam Rosen
A lot less expensive to have meeting rooms when you need them than a meeting room in your, you know, building that's empty, 90% of that 80% of the time or whatever it might be. So I think people do find that like, flexible solutions tend to be a lot more cost effective than owning heating, maintaining space. That's that's not used.

00;11;26;14 - 00;11;27;00
Sam Rosen
Well.

00;11;27;03 - 00;11;47;26
Wayne Turmel
What are some of the for people that have never, you know, taken advantage of these kinds of situations before? What are some of the ways people use them? Like why would somebody use a space when, you know, they have a home office?

00;11;47;28 - 00;12;19;16
Sam Rosen
So I mean, post through Covid like some of the, the big trends we've seen. So sales teams, right. Like bigger companies that have sales offices. So have like tens or hundreds of sales offices that were never that utilized, we're finding them divesting themselves from those spaces and saying, look, instead of having this office that's kind of far away from where you actually live, we're getting rid of it, but we're going to give you access to desks and meeting rooms and offices as you need.

00;12;19;19 - 00;12;54;25
Sam Rosen
So we see a lot of meetings, right? Like sales meetings, regional meetings, quarterly meetings, client meetings where people are leveraging the the network on demand for that. And I think another big pieces, I think Covid helped companies realize that being co-located to where the office and HQ is isn't as necessary as they thought. So they might have had employees that moved away from Chicago or whatever city are in and now live in Denver or Vegas or wherever it might be, and want to offer something to them rather than saying sayonara, right.

00;12;54;25 - 00;13;15;16
Sam Rosen
Or they're looking for talent and they're instead of just casting a net that's around their geography, they're saying, let's just find great people irrespective of where they live, and then let's support them with what they need. And that's where we see a lot of use with, I think these flexible workspaces and networks like ours.

00;13;15;19 - 00;13;25;20
Wayne Turmel
As CEO, what's the you know, where are your CEO hat for the moment and rejoined the patriarchy.

00;13;25;20 - 00;13;29;13
Sam Rosen
And I'm in,

00;13;29;16 - 00;13;46;01
Wayne Turmel
What is the discussion that you would have with your fellow fellow CEOs? What are the 2 or 3 things that they really need to think about in terms of their offices, in terms of flexible spaces like desk space?

00;13;46;04 - 00;14;12;09
Sam Rosen
Yeah. I mean, I think like the, you know, there is a huge cost savings advantage to leveraging networks like this and taking less fixed real estate and being more flexible. I think like that's a big piece. I think the other advantages to, to remote work is, is right, is talent, both acquiring new talent but also retaining great talent.

00;14;12;09 - 00;14;37;22
Sam Rosen
So like and this is, I think a, you know, that's what these tools are really great at. The last thing I'd say is, you know, some of the pushback you get, in selling what, what we sell and talking to folks is they believe the best work gets done in the office. They believe in, like, the watercooler. And getting people around the table is like, how great work is done.

00;14;37;24 - 00;15;10;11
Sam Rosen
And I I'm very much an advocate of in-person work and getting people together. I think that is work. Great work gets done, but I don't think it gets done there all the time. And I think that, like companies that have been really successful at remote work, like Nvidia, right, like the fastest growing American company right now, like Atlassian, I mean, there's a million really strong examples of fully remote company are very hybrid companies.

00;15;10;13 - 00;15;47;19
Sam Rosen
It's not about workspace, it's about culture. And it's about the having the right tools and the right processes in place as an organization, to like, effectively communicate. And I think those companies are really great because they have the best co-working spaces or the best real estate strategy. It's that they've recognized what's happening in our labor markets and with like the future of the world and where things are trending and they're building the right tools, the right culture, the right processes in-house to get the best result.

00;15;47;19 - 00;15;54;18
Sam Rosen
And that's why those companies are thriving, not because of like, the the watercooler.

00;15;54;20 - 00;16;09;12
Wayne Turmel
I'm going to leave you with one question, and this is just forget the fact that this is what you do for a living as a CEO. When do you decide an in-person meeting is necessary and when do you not?

00;16;09;15 - 00;16;36;12
Sam Rosen
It's interesting because I think of it more as asynchronous meetings like asynchronous work and synchronous work, right? What work does it need to be a meeting at all? And it's actually better if it's a host or it's, it's a, you know, like in the tools and then, okay, which meetings should be synchronous. Right. And I think okay, out of those meetings, which ones?

00;16;36;14 - 00;17;19;12
Sam Rosen
Should be in person. And I think when there's, a huge amount of work to get through, like it's a big meaty problem. I think that's when getting together really, really helps. And I think culturally, like when you feel like the culture you're building is struggling, like the, the and good pep or kind of shot in the arm is let's get people together and remember, like we're humans, like we're not just these little people in these boxes and like, it's the little things outside of just the work of just like learning about your people you work with, building empathy around them.

00;17;19;12 - 00;17;30;19
Sam Rosen
So I think, like, that's the kind of the framework that I like to use is like, does this have to be a meeting at all? And if it's a meeting, are we going to get a lot more squeezed by by doing it in person?

00;17;30;22 - 00;17;55;15
Wayne Turmel
Digging it. Thank you much. Sam Rosen desk pass. We will have links to salmon desk pass and all of that good stuff in our, show notes. I am going to remove Sam from the meeting for just a moment while I talk to you. And I remind you that if you enjoyed the show, if you continue to enjoy the show, please like and subscribe.

00;17;55;15 - 00;18;20;02
Wayne Turmel
You know how all this social media podcasting stuff works. I would urge you to check out, Kevin in my new book, The Long Distance Leader. And I know you're saying Wayne, the long distance leader, has been out for six years. Actually, this is a new, updated edition. It is the long distance leader. Revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid leadership.

00;18;20;02 - 00;18;53;12
Wayne Turmel
We urge you to check that out. And you can, of course, get show notes, transcripts, past episodes, all that good stuff. Check out long distance work life.com. If you have ideas for shows, if you have, questions, comments, complaints, vicious personal attacks, you can find Marissa Renee on LinkedIn or our email, which is here on the screen below my face.

00;18;53;12 - 00;19;08;26
Wayne Turmel
For those of you enduring that, that's it. It's, been another episode. Thank you so much for joining us on the long distance work life. Marissa will be back next week, and don't let the weasels get you down.

00;19;08;28 - 00;19;21;21
Unknown
Hey.

00;19;21;23 - 00;19;22;20
Unknown
You know.


Featured Guest

Name: Sam Rosen

Bio: Sam Rosen is the co-founder and CEO of Deskpass, an online marketplace connecting teams and individuals to thousands of coworking spaces and conference rooms across the country. A creative problem solver, Sam's passion for coworking began with co-founding The Coop, Chicago’s first coworking space, and he has since become a recognized entrepreneur and voice in the design community. Prior to Deskpass, he co-founded The Post Family art collaborative and One Design Company, a digital branding agency that blends research, communication, and design for top brands.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Sam Rosen and Deskpass
01:03 Sam’s Background in Co-Working and Design
02:05 The Evolution of Office Spaces and Remote Work
03:19 Design vs. Real Estate: What’s the Difference?
04:51 Advantages of Co-Working Spaces
07:09 How to Use Deskpass for Remote Work Travel
08:17 Making Flexible Workspaces Work for Your Company
10:00 Real-Life Examples of Deskpass in Action
13:15 Keeping Culture Alive in Remote Teams
17:19 Deciding When to Meet In Person
19:08 Conclusion and Resources

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Mastering Hybrid Coaching: Avoiding Proximity Bias in Remote Teams
Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Mastering Hybrid Coaching: Avoiding Proximity Bias in Remote Teams

Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry tackle the challenge of proximity bias and its impact on coaching in remote and hybrid teams. Proximity bias, where leaders give preferential treatment to those physically closer, can skew coaching opportunities and development. Wayne and Marisa discuss how to overcome this bias and ensure remote team members receive equal attention and guidance. You’ll also learn practical tips on how to leverage technology, such as Zoom, Slack, and Teams, to create more effective and meaningful coaching experiences.

Key Takeaways

  • Defining Proximity Bias: What it is and why it matters, not just for leaders but also for peers and teams.
  • Coaching Differences: How coaching remote employees differs from in-person coaching and why proximity plays a significant role.
  • The Importance of Regular Feedback: How coaching should be proactive, consistent, and more formal in remote settings to avoid isolation.
  • Leveraging Technology: Tips on using tools like Zoom and Slack to enrich one-on-one coaching experiences and maintain engagement.
  • Avoiding Bias in Hybrid Teams: Strategies to ensure that in-office employees don’t get favored over their remote counterparts during coaching sessions.
  • The Emotional Impact: How not receiving feedback or coaching can be demotivating for remote employees, and what leaders can do to avoid this.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;27 - 00;00;08;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to.

00;00;08;18 - 00;00;20;00
Marisa Eikenberry
The Long-Distance worksite, where we help you live, work, and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Russ, I can be a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Trimble. Hi, Lynn.

00;00;20;03 - 00;00;22;05
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marissa. How are you?

00;00;22;11 - 00;00;23;28
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00;00;24;01 - 00;00;27;01
Wayne Turmel
I'm fine. Even though we're nowhere near each other.

00;00;27;03 - 00;00;57;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Right, right. You in Vegas and me in Indianapolis said we're going to kind of talk about that today, as we do every time on our remote show. But today, specifically, we're talking about coaching and differences between coaching in-person and remote and how to try to make those similar and avoiding proximity bias. So one of the first things that I do want to start with, and we've talked about this a lot on the show, but for people who have never listened to an episode of ours before, maybe we should define what is proximity bias.

00;00;57;08 - 00;01;35;21
Wayne Turmel
Proximity bias as it relates to leaders. Okay, is and I'm looking at this very fancy I generated definition and okay, like all I generated definitions I want to go. That's not entirely it. It says and I quote proximity bias is a cognitive bias that occurs when people have positions of power, favor employees who are physically closer to them, and that includes things like promotions and coaching opportunities and an unintentional exclusion for those who aren't there, and all of that good stuff.

00;01;35;21 - 00;02;02;03
Wayne Turmel
The problem with this definition, of course, is that it happens not just in leadership, it happens in life, and it happens among peers. On teams. So when we're talking proximity bias, yes, in this case, because we're going to be discussing coaching its leaders, but it's also peers and colleagues and stuff like that.

00;02;02;06 - 00;02;11;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. So how does proximity bias specifically like affect the coaching experiences of remote employees as opposed to ones in person?

00;02;11;08 - 00;02;41;12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, well, proximity bias affects coaching in some obvious ways, right? An obvious way is if I'm in the office and I see somebody doing something incorrectly or wrong or even really well, and I want to give them some coaching and some feedback on that, my brain says, I see this happening and I should respond, the problem, of course, with remote workers is you often don't see things happening in real time.

00;02;41;19 - 00;03;11;24
Wayne Turmel
You see them long after the fact, and they generally need to be pretty dramatic in order for your brain to go, you know, I should pick up the phone. I should type them a message. I should make a point of mentioning this. So coaching happens much more spontaneously, much more frequently, and often better in person than it does remotely.

00;03;11;24 - 00;03;49;09
Wayne Turmel
And the ultimate impact of that is more than you would think. Because when you are remote and you perceive that other people are getting coaching and attention that you are not getting, it can be rather disheartening. And the. Well, of course, but when you're the one who is guilty of the bias, you often don't see that. For example, you know, out of sight, out of mind to a lot of leaders is, you know, unless there's a problem, I'm just going to let Marissa do her thing.

00;03;49;11 - 00;03;51;29
Marisa Eikenberry
And for some reason, you're okay with that.

00;03;52;01 - 00;04;27;00
Wayne Turmel
For some people, they're okay with that. But even people who are really good at their jobs and prefer to be left alone to do them need a little love. They need some attention. They need positive reinforcement and and occasionally correction. Because a lot of us who work remotely and we've talked before about the Wiley Coyote moments, where, you know, it's like the Roadrunner cartoons where you run, run, run, run, run and you're way off the cliff before you realize that you're off the cliff.

00;04;27;02 - 00;04;31;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. But if you would have had, you know, weekly or biweekly meetings, you may have if.

00;04;31;19 - 00;04;59;23
Wayne Turmel
You were getting regular feedback, which is ultimately what all of this comes down to is feedback loops, right? And proximity bias tends to have really strong feedback loops with the people with whom you are physically proximate and weaker, and less frequent feedback loops with people that you do not interact with in a rich way nearly as often.

00;04;59;25 - 00;05;14;10
Marisa Eikenberry
So what are some signs that a manager might be showing proximity bias during one on one? So if they are, you know, actually meeting. But how might those one on ones differ a little bit if they're showing proximity bias?

00;05;14;12 - 00;05;48;06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think there are a bunch of ways. And I'll just tell you because everything ultimately is about me. It used to make me crazy with managers who, if they were in the office, would call people in. They'd have a cup of coffee, they'd sit across the desk, they do their thing. But because I was usually on the other end of the country or traveling or they were traveling, I would get my coaching conversations on a staticky cell phone in a busy airport lobby.

00;05;48;08 - 00;05;50;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, it was an afterthought.

00;05;50;12 - 00;06;22;20
Wayne Turmel
It was, well, we got to do this. It's schedule. Let's do it. And so there wasn't time to connect. There wasn't the visual component where you could see that somebody was stressed or not. You basically because you're trying to drown out the distractions around you run from a checklist. And so a lot of those one on ones were not coaching opportunities so much as they were check ins on tasks.

00;06;22;22 - 00;06;23;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;06;23;06 - 00;06;25;06
Wayne Turmel
Which is important.

00;06;25;09 - 00;06;26;01
Marisa Eikenberry
But it's not the whole.

00;06;26;07 - 00;06;52;20
Wayne Turmel
Coaching. Coaching is more than that. Coaching is not just having a one on one coaching conversation or conversation. Coaching is a very specific thing. It involves feedback. It involves both performance and development. So it's not just this is what you're doing, but what would you like to be doing right? What would you like to be doing better? How can I help you do that?

00;06;52;22 - 00;07;25;28
Wayne Turmel
Is true coaching. It's not just feedback right. So and that's one that's a very obvious one. I think the other thing is that coaching remotely by definition is going to be more formal and needs to be planned, which means there are big coaching moments. Okay. But there's not a lot of that spontaneous in the hallway giving somebody a thumbs up when you hear them on the phone, doing a great job with a customer.

00;07;26;00 - 00;07;45;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. That's fair. So, you know, you were talking a second ago about your old coaching conversations where, you know, staticky cell phones and things like that. And obviously we now have tools like Zoom and Slack huddles and Microsoft Teams that give that visual and help make things a little bit easier, even if it isn't quite the same way.

00;07;45;10 - 00;07;53;09
Marisa Eikenberry
So how can technology help to kind of create a level playing field during one on ones between remote and in-office employees?

00;07;53;11 - 00;08;25;17
Wayne Turmel
Sure. Well, we have talked a lot on this show about the importance of richness and scope and understanding when you use which right. It's fair to say that coaching should be an extremely rich experience. It doesn't mean you can't send an ad a girl over over slack or something like that. But in general, coaching, requires a little bit more attention.

00;08;25;20 - 00;09;13;08
Wayne Turmel
And, and so that's part of it. So so the richer technologies are probably helpful. The other thing and not enough coaches do this, I think, is when you're on teams or whatever you're on, is the ability to share data so that you are not just staring at each other's faces, but you're actually looking at numbers and saying, you know, if I say you're not hitting your numbers or you were a little off this month, that's very different than looking at a spreadsheet that shows exactly how much you were off relative to the month before or the last couple of months, and it makes it more real when it's just face to face.

00;09;13;15 - 00;09;17;10
Wayne Turmel
It's very easy for coaching to become emotional.

00;09;17;14 - 00;09;17;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;09;18;00 - 00;09;33;19
Wayne Turmel
And emotional in good ways, but also emotional in ways of becoming defensive or, you know, putting on a front or whatever. And and that's for both the coach and the coach.

00;09;33;21 - 00;09;35;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Coach, of course.

00;09;35;05 - 00;09;37;10
Wayne Turmel
The person being coached. Okay.

00;09;37;12 - 00;09;48;01
Marisa Eikenberry
With that. You know, are there some things that managers can be doing, like to, enhance that a little bit during one on ones.

00;09;48;03 - 00;10;20;00
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I'm not going to make this whole thing a shameless plug for the new book, the new old book, but in the Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership, which is the updated version. One of the things that isn't updated a whole lot is the section on coaching, because it's the same as it's been. It's funny, one of the critiques we got of the book is, well, there's all this stuff about coaching, but it's not specific to remote and hybrid.

00;10;20;02 - 00;10;36;25
Wayne Turmel
And that is correct, because one of the things that we don't do well enough, even in person, is coaching. And there's no evidence that says we're going to do it better without the visual and approximation cues. And those sorts of things.

00;10;36;27 - 00;10;37;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;10;37;22 - 00;11;10;23
Wayne Turmel
But there are some things that need to happen. And a big one is when you are coaching, you need to check your beliefs because it's very easy to. And this is part of proximity bias. If you see people busily working, you assume that they're always busily working. And that tells you something about that person, right? If you feel positive towards them, you are inclined to cut them slack when something goes wrong because you see them working.

00;11;10;25 - 00;11;24;23
Wayne Turmel
When you are dealing with somebody who is surrounded by white space and you don't see everything that's going on around them. While we want to assume positive intent.

00;11;24;27 - 00;11;25;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;11;25;15 - 00;11;56;15
Wayne Turmel
We don't always. Because if I've worked with Morris a long enough, there is a part of me that goes, you know what she's like. And and that colors how we approach our coaching. And over time, if we don't check those beliefs, if we don't stop and ask ourselves if the information we're getting or the impression we're getting is accurate, we start to act on those beliefs by default.

00;11;56;17 - 00;12;17;28
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, we've talked about this in previous episodes too, but because, you know, you can't see somebody, maybe their performance is down this month. And you know, you notice that. So you just assume, oh, they're lazy. But if you had been seeing them you would notice like they're stressed out, they're overworked, they're burned out. They've got something going on at home that's affecting stuff.

00;12;17;28 - 00;12;22;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And you have no idea if you're not checking in like that.

00;12;22;06 - 00;12;49;18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And so, you know, a coaching conversation actually has several parts. And one of the most important, you just said it and we kind of glossed over that part, okay. Is at the beginning of the conversation when we say, how are you? We made the correct response with the correct response is, oh, I am fine. Let us please get to this meeting that I don't really want to have.

00;12;49;18 - 00;12;51;02
Wayne Turmel
But you have called.

00;12;51;05 - 00;12;51;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;12;51;23 - 00;12;52;20
Wayne Turmel
Right.

00;12;52;22 - 00;12;54;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;12;54;02 - 00;13;22;11
Wayne Turmel
And, and and so and I'm sure I've said this before because I'm mildly obsessed with it. How are you? Is both a greeting and a request for information. Right. And a good coaching conversation starts with the request for information. Yes. The second thing that the coaching conversation does, and hopefully over time, the person understands that that is a legit request for information, right?

00;13;22;11 - 00;13;29;14
Wayne Turmel
When I say to you, how are you doing? You are generally pretty forthcoming with me about how are you doing?

00;13;29;17 - 00;13;34;01
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, we have that trust established, right? Like, I just I don't have to trust anybody.

00;13;34;03 - 00;14;05;19
Wayne Turmel
Right. But we have that trust established. I have demonstrated in the past that I am actually willing to listen. I give a hoot. And and so, I mean, we started we start every conversation with how's it going? How you doing? Is, you know, what's going on in your world. But the other thing that a good coaching conversation does, this is different than the sports model coaching that we often think of, where the coach tells you stuff right.

00;14;05;21 - 00;14;06;22
Marisa Eikenberry


00;14;06;24 - 00;14;32;28
Wayne Turmel
Nobody sees Phil Jackson. Ask Michael Jordan what's going on out there. You see Phil talking to Jordan right. You have these guys that was maybe the oldest white guy reference I could have made there. But but a good coaching conversation lets the other person speak first. Yeah right. What's going on. What would you like to talk about?

00;14;33;03 - 00;14;57;12
Wayne Turmel
And the reason is very simple. I can come in saying I need to give Billy Bob feedback on this thing that isn't work, and that's fine, right? Because we need to get his performance up. So I'm going to coach him. But as you alluded to earlier, let's find out what's going on with Billy Bob. And one of the really important things is does Billy Bob know there's a problem?

00;14;57;15 - 00;15;27;01
Wayne Turmel
That's right. If I say, tell me about your numbers last week, oh, it's no big deal, blah, blah, blah. If I say, tell me about your numbers last month. And Billy Bob goes, oh, God, you wouldn't believe it. It's such a okay. Until he events, he is not going to be able to hear my feedback. If I think that he's in denial, I'm going to give him different feedback than I would if he is guilt ridden and knows that there is a problem, right?

00;15;27;01 - 00;15;57;02
Wayne Turmel
Because he is guilt ridden and knows that there is a problem, he probably wants to get better. And I am going to approach that coaching conversation different than I will. If he doesn't think there's a problem at all. Well, it's really important for me to know where the coached person is psychologically, mentally in terms of the problem, because that's going to radically dictate how we have that conversation.

00;15;57;04 - 00;16;16;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, it's interesting that you're saying this too, because it's one of those things that like, I, I mean, I've been working for the Kevin like Burger for ten years, right? And I did not realize that almost every conversation I've had with any manager that I've had has been like that. The one on one started off with, okay, I have some things for you, but let's start with you first.

00;16;16;29 - 00;16;35;06
Marisa Eikenberry
What do you have for me? And then and sometimes it's the same stuff that's on their list. But it was just, you know, I mean, I have a biweekly meeting with, you know, my manager now, and it's always what's on your list first. And it didn't occur to me until now that it's like, oh, yeah, well, like that let me lead the conversation first for a little bit.

00;16;35;08 - 00;17;02;07
Wayne Turmel
Well, you know, we both have lists, right? Right. The manager here has a Kevin has a waiting list. Right. These are the things I need to talk to Wayne about. And Wayne has a Kevin list. And it is an actual physical running list that I keep. And if what is on the top of Kevin's list is not what's on the top of mine, I'm going to be responsive to what Kevin's telling me.

00;17;02;07 - 00;17;15;18
Wayne Turmel
But in the back of my head I'm going, yeah, but what I really want to talk about is right, right, right. Or what I really think is important is this. And I may not be fully in the game.

00;17;15;20 - 00;17;18;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, it may be something that's not on Kevin's radar.

00;17;18;29 - 00;17;49;04
Wayne Turmel
Right. So here we are running radically out of time. And most of what we have talked about is coaching, because coaching is coaching. And the nuances of doing it remotely are important. There not the biggest things in the world, but they matter. The only thing before we wrap up is that in hybrid hybrid coaching, if you've got people couple days in the week, blah blah blah, choose when to do it in person.

00;17;49;04 - 00;18;05;27
Wayne Turmel
And coaching in person is almost always more valuable than coaching at a distance. So if you can schedule your time and arrange your schedules so that if you are in the office together, that's when that stuff happens.

00;18;05;29 - 00;18;25;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Have it be as rich as possible. Of course. So Wayne, thank you so much for this. And I really hope that our listeners got a lot out of this. But before we go, the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is now available, and this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

00;18;25;27 - 00;18;56;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Kevin and Wayne show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale, and order your copy now! At long distance work life.com/l d l and strengthen your remote leadership skills today. And thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources, make sure to visit Long Distance Work life.com and if you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes.

00;18;56;17 - 00;19;12;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And while you're there, make sure to give us a rating and review your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. And feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes. Let us know you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00;19;12;06 - 00;19;17;23
Marisa Eikenberry
We would love to hear from you. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let his weasels get you down.

00;19;17;25 - 00;19;23;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Hey.

00;19;23;07 - 00;19;31;26
Marisa Eikenberry
There.

00;19;31;29 - 00;19;32;07
Marisa Eikenberry
You.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro
00:27 What is Proximity Bias?
01:35 How Proximity Bias Affects Coaching
03:11 Differences Between In-Person and Remote Coaching
05:14 Signs of Proximity Bias in One-on-Ones
07:45 Using Technology to Enhance Remote Coaching
09:48 Creating a Level Playing Field with Remote Tools
10:48 Coaching Conversations: Feedback and Emotional Dynamics
12:22 The Importance of Trust in Coaching
14:05 How to Start a Good Coaching Conversation
17:49 Final Thoughts on Hybrid Coaching
18:25 Long-Distance Leader Book Promotion
18:56 Outro

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
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Guests, Leadership, Working Remotely

Using DISC Assessments for Better Remote Teamwork with Guy Harris

Wayne Turmel welcomes Guy Harris, co-author of From Bud to Boss with Kevin Eikenberry and the expert behind DISC assessments at DISCpersonalitytesting.com. Guy shares insights into how DISC assessments can help remote teams communicate better, understand different behavior styles, and improve collaboration. Wayne and Guy explore common misuses of these assessments, how they can be effectively applied in leadership, and the unique challenges remote leaders face when interpreting team dynamics. Tune in for actionable tips on using DISC in a remote or hybrid work environment.

Key Takeaways

  • Introduction to DISC assessments and their relevance to remote work 
  • The value of behavior-based assessments in team dynamics 
  • Misconceptions and misuse of DISC assessments 
  • How DISC can help prevent misunderstandings in remote teams 
  • Why understanding different communication styles is critical for remote leadership 
  • Using DISC to guide, not judge, remote team members 
  • The importance of avoiding exclusion in remote teams 
  • Practical tips for applying DISC to remote leadership 

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;06 - 00;00;47;07
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to the Long Distance Worklife Podcast, the podcast where we help you thrive, survive, and generally keep the weasels at bay in the evolving world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. Marissa is not here today. That's the bad news. The good news is that we have a really excellent interview with a good friend of mine and all around good Egg, and we are going to be talking about assessments in remote work and disk assessment in particular.

00;00;47;14 - 00;00;57;12
Wayne Turmel
And so for that, I am going to welcome my buddy and coworker and very, very smart guy, guy Harris guy, how are you?

00;00;57;14 - 00;00;59;16
Guy Harris
I'm doing great. Wayne, how are you?

00;00;59;19 - 00;01;09;28
Wayne Turmel
I am ridiculously well glad I have an excuse to talk to you. This is one of the things about remote work is there are people you don't talk to nearly often enough.

00;01;09;28 - 00;01;11;03
Guy Harris
That is fair. Yep.

00;01;11;05 - 00;01;35;06
Wayne Turmel
Now, Guy, besides being the coauthor with Kevin, but the boss is also the brains behind discpersonalitytesting.com. This is a Kevin Eikenberry company. Full disclosure, but Guy, can you tell us a little bit about what is the disc assessment and why the heck do we care.

00;01;35;06 - 00;01;58;26
Guy Harris
So the disc assessment is, behavior based assessment. We use words interchangeably like behavior style, communication style. But in our line of work comment, leadership and conflict resolution and team building those kind of things, it's an assessment to help identify what a person's personal blend of traits would be, using the Disc model of human behavior as the language to describe those those traits.

00;01;58;26 - 00;02;16;23
Guy Harris
So it's attempting to find an objective way to describe human behavior that can be sort of subjective in and of itself or or attempting to objectify human behavior so that we can better identify differences between us so that we can communicate better.

00;02;16;23 - 00;02;39;19
Wayne Turmel
And we're going to talk about what Disc is and isn't and what it should be, and what it often gets used for and for. Dear listener, your information, and yes, we use Disc in our organization. There are plenty out there. By last count. I am a Idi enfj blue green otter, I believe.

00;02;39;19 - 00;02;51;14
Guy Harris
Well, and there's exactly the issue was behavioral health assessments. There are, I don't know how many. There are more than I can keep track of. And I think the value of it is just having a common language. So like pick something and use it in your team.

00;02;51;16 - 00;03;07;07
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Let's talk about that. What is the value of this kind of assessment in a really down and dirty. Why do I care that guy is an ass and somebody else is something else. Why does that matter?

00;03;07;09 - 00;03;29;18
Guy Harris
It comes down to better understanding the differences between us. Here's a rough correlation. It's kind of like knowing before you engage with someone that they speak only Spanish as opposed to you speaking English, so that you're prepared to make the translation in a similar way. We have different ways we engage and interact and focus and preference, all that kind of stuff.

00;03;29;18 - 00;03;58;25
Guy Harris
Even though we're all using English, at least we are. we're going to speak it and interpret it and perceive it slightly differently. And, the Disc model or any behavior based model helps us get closer and closer to understanding how another person might interpret what we say and do, and also help us better interpret what they say and do, so that we're basically trying to read other people's behaviors through their filters, not through our own personal filters.

00;03;58;28 - 00;04;19;12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I think one of the ways I always think about it is it's not analysis, but it gives you a pretty good idea. For example, if you and I work together in the office exactly together, I would very quickly learn that I don't go to guy without numbers data. The statistics you.

00;04;19;12 - 00;04;21;25
Guy Harris
Would pick up quickly because you would see that they did they.

00;04;21;27 - 00;04;46;03
Wayne Turmel
Quickly. Yes. Yeah. The look of horror and borderline disgust on your face as I ramble on would tell me that I need to work with Guy in a certain way, right? If we work apart from each other and we don't have that social exposure to each other, it's kind of helpful for me to know. And it's going to perhaps prevent some drama.

00;04;46;06 - 00;05;04;12
Guy Harris
Oh, absolutely. Because you're not going to have those day to day real life clues on, hey, here's how I adjust to work with Wayne, or here's how I talk to Marissa. Here are things that she cares about or he cares about, and assessments going to help you get there faster and with less stress and frustration. Hopefully because you have a frame of reference to engage with people.

00;05;04;12 - 00;05;35;09
Wayne Turmel
Now, it's funny because one of the things that seems counterintuitive since this personality testing.com sells not only individual assessments, but also team reports. So if you've got, you know, five people on your team and they each take the assessment, the report will tell you, here's what the impact of that is. Yes. All of that being said, I'm going to do something counterintuitive, which is ask you, how do people use these things wrong?

00;05;35;14 - 00;05;36;26
Wayne Turmel
Well, what do we know?

00;05;36;26 - 00;05;58;15
Guy Harris
I think it's excellent because, well, I mean, a quote and, the quote that resonates with me is all models are flawed. Some of them are useful. So, the disc model is a model of behavior. It's not a perfect predictor. It has flaws and limitations and all that kind of stuff. I acknowledge it openly. So in order to use it well, you got to know how you shouldn't use it.

00;05;58;17 - 00;06;20;25
Guy Harris
Well, one of the ways you don't want to use it is to get what I would say, overly prescriptive with it. So as we were just talking about it does give me a general idea how to better interpret and understand another person. And it's actually really good in retrospect to like, hear what somebody said or observe what somebody did and go, oh, I think I better understand that because I understand their behavior style.

00;06;20;27 - 00;06;46;21
Guy Harris
It's really not good to like, try to constrain somebody and predict with certainty how they're going to respond. So a good example is I can know for a fact. I can know from the disc model looking at that, Wayne's results go, probably wouldn't be ideal if the first thing I do is dump a bunch of data on his plate and ask him to interpret it, or try to persuade him with data, it's probably going to be a different approach.

00;06;46;21 - 00;07;06;23
Guy Harris
It's probably more of an interactive thing, probably. Let's talk about this rather than, hey, here's all my 17 levels of research, and I could run into a situation where I share something with Wayne and he says, do you have some data to support that? So I don't want to get prescriptive, like Wayne is capable or not capable of doing a job because of the style.

00;07;06;26 - 00;07;14;24
Wayne Turmel
that's a little things. A lot of people, you know, a lot of people come to us and they want to use whatever the assessment is, whatever.

00;07;14;24 - 00;07;15;12
Guy Harris
The assessment is.

00;07;15;16 - 00;07;19;02
Wayne Turmel
Whatever, you know, whether you're a lion or an otter or whatever it is.

00;07;19;02 - 00;07;20;23
Guy Harris
Whatever language you use to describe it. Yes.

00;07;20;23 - 00;07;34;20
Wayne Turmel
But they want to use that in hiring to say particularly around remote work. So and so is a good candidate for remote work, or so-and-so is not a good candidate for remote work.

00;07;34;24 - 00;07;56;14
Guy Harris
I think it's overly prescriptive. It does it help to kind of understand fit in a team and maybe the kind of things people might gravitate to or might not gravitate to. Does it give you a good framework for asking questions to see what people's preferences are? Yeah, absolutely. Do I want to use it to decide in advance this person's capable or not capable of doing something?

00;07;56;16 - 00;08;09;13
Guy Harris
I don't think it says that it it doesn't talk about work ethic. It doesn't talk about preference. It doesn't talk about the necessarily the kind of work people like. There are inferences not conclusions. You can draw from the well.

00;08;09;13 - 00;08;17;19
Wayne Turmel
And whenever I hear somebody say fit for a team, I get a little shiver down my question.

00;08;17;19 - 00;08;20;09
Guy Harris
And yeah, you got to be really careful how far you go with that.

00;08;20;12 - 00;08;36;05
Wayne Turmel
You know? For example, even on the most analytical team, I think you need a jeopardy expert on your team. And by that I mean you need somebody who is not laser focused but knows a whole bunch of stuff about.

00;08;36;05 - 00;08;40;09
Guy Harris
Oh, I think you're right. Yeah. Because there's a risk of getting too much groupthink.

00;08;40;11 - 00;09;04;06
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. Right. That's that's a concern. Now, how do you let's say we all take there are six members of our team, and we all take the disk. But just assessment as a leader, how do I use that in a way that is useful and constructive and not like saying, oh, everybody be nice to guy because he's a C.

00;09;04;08 - 00;09;26;07
Guy Harris
Yeah. So, I think in terms of taking like a holistic view of the role first, and I would very seldom say a single person should make that determination, like several people, probably with different looks at the job, different types of interaction, different different behavior styles in and of themselves. We'll look okay. What what does does it take to be successful in that role.

00;09;26;07 - 00;10;00;04
Guy Harris
And once I understand that, I go, okay, probably the person who's successful in this role, I mean, the type of environment they work in demands a lot of dark traits or demands a lot of this, or it may not traits, behaviors, DNC behaviors, or CNS behaviors, whatever the combination is. And then I could probably look at like, potential candidates for the job and think, and use that as a way to guide my interview questions so that I'm investigating a person's comfort with certain things, rather than using it as a filter that says you must have the style to have the job.

00;10;00;04 - 00;10;12;04
Guy Harris
So it's more of like it guides me and how I engage with the person for the interview process. And knowing that interview processes are also flawed, because we bring our biases and stuff to the table.

00;10;12;06 - 00;10;15;24
Wayne Turmel
Basically nothing works, so nothing works. So why should we bother?

00;10;15;27 - 00;10;41;02
Guy Harris
Is like, yeah, I think it's like we should acknowledge there are some limitations for anything we do, and let's just acknowledge those limitations and then work within them so that this model can help you guide your interaction with the person so you understand where they're coming from better. I don't think you really want to use it as a filter that says they must meet this criteria to have the job so it fits in the helped me understand the person better category rather than a let me force this.

00;10;41;05 - 00;10;43;29
Guy Harris
Well, let me force this person through a filter kind of thing.

00;10;43;29 - 00;10;55;22
Wayne Turmel
Now, one of the things that I love about you is that you are a unabashed geek and you love rolling around in the numbers and seeing what I do.

00;10;55;22 - 00;10;57;09
Guy Harris
I do love numbers. Yes.

00;10;57;11 - 00;11;00;29
Wayne Turmel
Yes, more than you like people, which is fine.

00;11;01;01 - 00;11;03;29
Guy Harris
significantly more. Yeah, yeah.

00;11;04;02 - 00;11;27;11
Wayne Turmel
Which is lovely. Somebody has to do a brother and it's not me, but I'm curious. There's the assessment and then there's the team report, which uses a really fascinating algorithm to say if your team has four of people who are heavy in one area, right. Maybe. Right. It's really a good report. And you can get a free sample of one of those reports.

00;11;27;12 - 00;11;46;09
Guy Harris
There's a sample report on this first night testing.com. So you can see if it provides the kind of information you like. Yeah. And actually the report is intended as a discussion guide more than as a here's the thing about your team. It's more it says okay, here are patterns we see in your team. And here are some things you probably want to get as a leader.

00;11;46;09 - 00;12;06;18
Guy Harris
You want to engage with your team about to identify. Are we having some groupthink around these issues? Are we excluding? Like for example, if my team gravitates really heavy to the DNC, traits are we tending to exclude people who have a more relational perspective and not, like, discount their input because it's not important to the five of us.

00;12;06;23 - 00;12;23;01
Guy Harris
So therefore it's not important or are we looking at taking taken apart, going, oh look, we we might inadvertently discount this perspective because it's not ours. And maybe we should listen to that input or seek that input out, because it's not natural for us to consider that.

00;12;23;03 - 00;12;51;06
Wayne Turmel
And given that one of the most corrosive behaviors on remote teams is exclusion, yes. That's very easy to have happen, right? Very easy to naturally gravitate towards people who think and act like us. Absolutely. And therefore, you know, Marissa and Guy are going to drill down on this thing because what use is Wayne going to be? He might be and Wayne might be feeling left out of this.

00;12;51;08 - 00;13;11;05
Guy Harris
And Wayne might see something that never even occurred to Guy Marissa because it's like, oh, but this is obvious to us. Surely don't have a question about that. And yet Wayne or Barb or Kevin looks at and goes, hey, what about oh, I guess we didn't answer that question because it's so obvious to us, right? And like, ignore that input or discount it rather than value it.

00;13;11;08 - 00;13;20;06
Wayne Turmel
Now, you've been doing this a long time and rolling around in in the numbers. What have you learned that surprises you.

00;13;20;13 - 00;13;24;14
Guy Harris
About the Dis model or assessments in general?

00;13;24;16 - 00;13;27;29
Wayne Turmel
whatever jumps into your dinky little brain.

00;13;28;02 - 00;13;55;13
Guy Harris
I think it's kind of like my journey in using the model is because engineer by training, really analytical by nature. I started my journey using the disk model. I was guilty of being over prescriptive and like, oh, I know this about you. I know that your style, therefore I know all this stuff about you and it's the realization or insight over time just how dynamic people are and how careful I have to be in assumptions I make about people.

00;13;55;13 - 00;14;16;28
Guy Harris
So that's one of the things that has, like the developing in my journeys, like, hey guy, slow your roll a little bit. Let me maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions about that person so fast. Maybe you should take the assessment. Yes. Use that as a way to understand and like the phrase I use a lot is I want to remain curious, not judging.

00;14;16;28 - 00;14;36;26
Guy Harris
So the model helps me, actually heighten my curiosity when I gauge that people have a different style because now I'm like, wonder. Like, well, how do you see this? It. I think we see things differently. Help me understand that. As opposed to, oh, I know your style. Therefore I know how you see things. So it's more it helps me engage the people in a better way.

00;14;36;26 - 00;14;41;27
Guy Harris
And it's it's been really kind of cool to learn all the different ways people express their own style.

00;14;42;03 - 00;15;04;07
Wayne Turmel
Just one last question. Specifically when it comes to remote teams is there's something, a leader, one thing that a leader should consider, when it comes to the disc model that is not necessarily unique, but very specific to the remote workplace.

00;15;04;08 - 00;15;27;05
Guy Harris
I think it's something you touched on, is that tendency to either isolate from the team or to only connect with people who it's really easy and natural to interact with, because there's not the organic. I'm kind of forced to interact with people in the office that if I have to send an email or engage with them on instant messaging platform or something, I kind of have to have some initiative or intentionality to do that.

00;15;27;05 - 00;15;49;02
Guy Harris
It won't just accidentally happen. And so one thing I think unawareness for leaders is to look for places where people either isolate from or only interact with those that are like, super comfortable to interact with and start to have little clicks within the team, or only certain people that interact with each other, intentionally or unintentionally exclude certain members of the team.

00;15;49;02 - 00;16;00;04
Guy Harris
Don't invite them into the conversation. Those are the things I'd be looking for, because the remote environment sort of lends itself to reinforce that behavior. If leaders are not intentional about trying to break it down.

00;16;00;07 - 00;16;25;19
Wayne Turmel
Guy, thank you so, so much for you listeners out there. this personality test Inc.com, we will have links to that and to Guy in the show notes. show notes, of course, are at long distance work life.com. If you have questions, comments, vicious personal attacks, ideas for topics that you want us to talk about or people you want us to talk with, drop us a line.

00;16;25;19 - 00;17;04;10
Wayne Turmel
Wayne. At Kevin. I can become Marissa at Kevin. I can barricade them. And very exciting stuff. September 17th is the launch of the second edition updated version of the Long Distance Leader revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid Leadership. we're very excited about this. Kevin. And I, wrote the original six years ago. Little has changed in the world since then, and so we urge you to check that out if you are familiar with the book, there is new content, particularly around hybrid teams.

00;17;04;17 - 00;17;29;29
Wayne Turmel
If you are unfamiliar with the book, now's a really good time to get on the stick. Anyway, thank you so, so much for joining us. We are super excited you did! If you enjoyed the show, please like and subscribe. You know how podcasts work and next week we will be back in a really fun conversation with Marissa. Meanwhile, I am Wayne Trammell.

00;17;29;29 - 00;17;35;15
Wayne Turmel
Thanks for joining us on the long distance work life. Don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.


Timestamps

0:00 Intro: Guy Harris & DISC Assessments
1:35 What is the DISC assessment?
2:50 Why DISC matters in leadership and remote teams
4:10 Preventing misunderstandings with DISC
5:45 Common mistakes when using DISC
7:00 Applying DISC to remote team leadership
8:35 Avoiding exclusion in remote teams
10:05 How to use DISC reports for team building
11:45 New Book: The Long-Distance Leader
12:50 Final thoughts and links

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Revised Rules for Remote Leadership: What's New in The Long-Distance Leader, 2nd Edition
Guests, Hybrid Work, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Revised Rules for Remote Leadership: What’s New in The Long-Distance Leader, 2nd Edition

Marisa Eikenberry interviews special guest Kevin Eikenberry and co-host Wayne Turmel about the newly revised second edition of The Long-Distance Leader. Together, they explore the biggest changes in remote work and leadership since the book’s first release in 2018. Kevin and Wayne share insights on navigating the evolving world of hybrid work, the impact of technological advancements like Zoom, and the critical balance between synchronous and asynchronous work.

Whether you're an established leader or new to remote teams, this conversation offers actionable strategies to thrive in a hybrid environment. Tune in to learn how remote leadership has transformed, what hybrid work truly means, and how you can stay ahead in the remote work revolution.

Key Takeaways

  • What’s changed in remote leadership since 2018? 
  • The rise of Zoom and its impact on work culture 
  • Challenges of hybrid work and how to overcome them
  • The difference between remote-first and remote-friendly workplaces 
  • How the second edition of The Long-Distance Leader addresses modern leadership needs 
  • Kevin’s upcoming book on flexible leadership 
  • Surprising trends in remote work: Who really wants to stay remote? 
  • The importance of intentional leadership in hybrid teams 

    • View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;01 - 00;00;35;20
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Long Distance Work Life, the podcast designed to help you thrive. Survive, and generally keep the weasels at bay as we navigate the world of remote work, hybrid work, and how the workplace has changing. Today, we have a very different kind of show. Ordinarily, if it's Marissa and I, we chat and discuss the topic.

    00;00;36;02 - 00;01;07;19
    Wayne Turmel
    otherwise I interview guests. But today, because we are talking about a very special book that Marissa will tell you about, I am playing the role of hot shot author, or at least co hot shot author is our friend and boss and colleague Kevin Eikenberry. And we will be discussing the second edition, newly revised version of the Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership.

    00;01;07;19 - 00;01;16;04
    Wayne Turmel
    And I got that out the first time. Yay! But Marissa, you are playing interviewer today, so you are running the show lady.

    00;01;16;05 - 00;01;33;06
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Thank you. And so, as we already said, we're going to talk about the second edition of The Long Distance Leader, which was written by Kevin and Wayne, and it's a book that's been a cornerstone for remote leaders, set its first release in May of 2018, and so much of the world has already changed as far as leadership and remote work.

    00;01;33;06 - 00;01;43;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And so we're going to dive into what's new in the second edition, and how leaders can navigate the evolving challenges of leading from a distance. So, Kevin, thank you for joining Wayne and I today.

    00;01;43;04 - 00;01;49;01
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I'm glad to be here. you know, this is I think it's I think this is only the second time I've been on the show, so.

    00;01;49;08 - 00;02;09;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, second or third. So we're excited to have you back. And I hope that our listeners are excited as well. So one of the things that I want to start off with first, so as we already said, the book came out in 2018. So much of the world has changed since then. So what are some of the biggest shifts that you've observed since the rise of remote work?

    00;02;09;17 - 00;02;32;28
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Biggest shifts? You know, I think that I I'll just say this. I think that we are in the middle of living in a time where time has been compressed. And here's what I mean. Like the nature of the workplace usually changes in takes like 50, 60, 70 years for that sort of adjustment to sort of filter through, being tested, being tried, being sort of, acclimate the world, the society being acclimated to it.

    00;02;33;12 - 00;02;53;00
    Kevin Eikenberry
    and in this one, it largely happened in like eight weeks and then over two years. And so what I think all of the changes, all the challenges, all the frustrations, all of the stuff that you guys talk about here on a regular basis are in part because we're living in this very compressed time of change that we've not ever experienced in the workplace.

    00;02;53;00 - 00;03;09;24
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Like we could go back and talk about since the Industrial Revolution and all that sort of stuff. But that's, to me, the most fascinating thing about all this, like human dynamics show up, people's people's, wants and needs show up and their and their tendencies around change show up. And it's all because of that to me.

    00;03;09;27 - 00;03;17;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, absolutely. And and we've talked on the show before to your point about eight weeks. It's like zoom went from, what is that to a verb?

    00;03;17;18 - 00;03;18;09
    Kevin Eikenberry
    It really.

    00;03;18;09 - 00;03;20;19
    Wayne Turmel
    And then from to is syndrome, right.

    00;03;20;19 - 00;03;22;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. Zoom fatigue and all that.

    00;03;22;11 - 00;03;50;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah I think Kevin's absolutely right. The, the kind of seismic change. And yet what is both interesting and frustrating is how little it has changed. Right. some of that is because the change was already underway when the kind of crossing the Rubicon moment happened. And the other thing is, I think there's this desperate attempt to go back to the before times.

    00;03;50;10 - 00;03;55;15
    Wayne Turmel
    So we're not really embracing what's changed and launching from that point.

    00;03;55;17 - 00;03;56;12
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;03;56;14 - 00;03;57;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Well that's the key.

    00;03;57;02 - 00;04;15;17
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So it's, it's that it's that tension between the, the future and and and and so many things are pulling us forward. And yet so many of us and I'll say us are holding us back with the way it used to be and the good old days. And why can't we all be in the office and 100 other things like that, right.

    00;04;15;19 - 00;04;22;14
    Kevin Eikenberry
    It's that tension. That's where this is so interesting. and really where so much of the conversation ends up lying, I think.

    00;04;22;15 - 00;04;36;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and, you know, just a second ago, I mentioned, you know, zoom went to a verb. And when you guys wrote the book, tools like zoom and even Microsoft Teams didn't exist yet. So how have those communication tools transformed the way that we work?

    00;04;36;14 - 00;05;01;04
    Wayne Turmel
    So I think that it's it's transformed in two ways. One is it's normalized them. I mean, when the book first came out, one of the big lessons was use your webcam. Well, now, you know, people understand it's not going to steal your soul. And everybody, including your grandmother, has been on a zoom call and they know kind of what that's about.

    00;05;01;04 - 00;05;22;22
    Wayne Turmel
    So I think, you know, the the novelty of the technology. The other thing is that, you know, I'm going to give you a very quick analogy. When I started my consultancy, 18 years ago, there were 120 web meeting platforms out there. Everybody was inventing a new one all the time, and then it kind of collapsed into the top five, right?

    00;05;22;22 - 00;05;46;14
    Wayne Turmel
    There's WebEx and there was Skype for business and whatever. And now we have gone through another one of those collapsing where at the beginning of the pandemic, there were a thousand tools out there and people had enough already. It's not that we don't love technology, it's that we've got work to do. And they were kind of looking for one ring to rule them all.

    00;05;46;21 - 00;06;09;12
    Wayne Turmel
    And so we've settled into there's kind of the Google universe, there's the slack zoom universe, and there's Microsoft Teams. And you can argue whether teams was designed by Sauron or not. But at the end of the day, people are looking for ways to get the work done with as little drama and pain about technology as possible.

    00;06;09;15 - 00;06;29;21
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. And drag. Can I just make a comment? and this will probably take us off track for what you're planning, Marissa. But that that that webcam comment that, that Wayne made is exactly right. And and yet here's this tension. And yet when I'm with groups regularly, I still have people saying, do we really have to use our webcams?

    00;06;29;21 - 00;06;47;01
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Like so everyone now has use them. And yet in some ways, the message that we had in 2018, Wayne hasn't completely changed because the reasons they don't want to may be different, right? The reason they may want to not want to use them might not be the same that a still in there. So I'll see in my living room all that stuff.

    00;06;47;07 - 00;07;02;10
    Kevin Eikenberry
    But but the but the the fact that some people don't want to be on them is still there. And that's one of those tensions. Right. Like that. The drag on it, the ease of doing it all, that's gotten better. And yet we're not all really there. It's just a small example of what we talked about earlier.

    00;07;02;11 - 00;07;18;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Speaking of all of that kind of stuff too. So like one of the things that you guys have added into this new edition of the book is a lot of discussion about hybrid. And so what are some of the unique challenges and opportunities for hybrid work presents compared to a fully remote or a fully in office setup?

    00;07;19;00 - 00;07;36;05
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I think the single biggest thing, and it's really not rocket science, the single biggest thing to me is that if we're going to have a hybrid workplace where some or all of the people are going to be in the office some of the time, then we ought to use those days as appropriate. And so what I always say is not every workday should be the same.

    00;07;36;08 - 00;07;56;11
    Kevin Eikenberry
    The day should go to the office, ought to be different kinds of day. It's more likely you're going to collaborate to have those those serendipitous conversations. that's the chance to work with a mentor. That's the chance to do side by side training. Like we ought to make sure that we're taking advantage of those days and then releasing people when they're back home to get more, have more productivity with fewer meetings, etc..

    00;07;56;13 - 00;08;06;19
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So to me, that's the single biggest thing that's relatively easy to implement. And yet I'm still seeing most organizations not doing that very well.

    00;08;06;22 - 00;08;50;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and part of that, I think, is because they're looking at going back to the office says, okay, we are now primarily in the office again. And the people who are working remotely are outliers, or they will adjust because we're in the office. What I think one of those seismic changes that Kevin was referring to earlier is that companies that are starting now are much more comfortable with the remote workplace and trying less to cram it into the old model than companies where the boat's already in the water and you're dealing with memories of before time and sunk costs and all kinds of things.

    00;08;50;26 - 00;09;06;21
    Wayne Turmel
    So that's another one of the changes is that if I'm starting a company and I don't need a big office and I don't need to be all the time, cool, but if I've already got that infrastructure, I'm already paying for it.

    00;09;06;21 - 00;09;08;14
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Wayne. Right.

    00;09;08;17 - 00;09;15;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, it goes back to the conversation we've had before about remote first versus remote friendly and how they're very, very different.

    00;09;15;29 - 00;09;39;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and one of the challenges with that is that there's a tendency for leaders to fall back into old habits. And so there are some pitfalls with hybrid work primarily being proximity bias that, you know, it's really easy to look across the room and see somebody. So they get involved in the conversation and somebody gets excluded. Not intentionally.

    00;09;39;26 - 00;09;51;06
    Wayne Turmel
    I'm not, you know, not including somebody. It just doesn't happen naturally. And so that dynamic needs to be navigated well.

    00;09;51;06 - 00;10;07;21
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And then we think everybody knows whatever the thing is. And yet oh, well, we didn't know what sent an email or a slack message or send it. It's put some in the teams channels. So the only the everybody that knows are those that are here. I mean, we used to have that once in a while when someone was home sick or on vacation.

    00;10;07;21 - 00;10;29;12
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. But that just happens way, way, way more often now and again. Not intentional just happens. We've got to be, you know, one of the messages from the first version of the book and still in there is that word of being intentional, like making conscious choices, stepping back from our routines and our habits, from the auto utter response to, to doing what is the the best thing given the situation.

    00;10;29;13 - 00;10;42;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and Wayne, you just mentioned a minute ago about companies that are starting now are more comfortable with remote work and so, you know, how should organizations approach hybrid work differently, whether they're an established team or they're newly forming?

    00;10;42;25 - 00;11;09;06
    Wayne Turmel
    I am like a dog with a sock on this particular topic. I think you have to be very careful about using the word hybrid. Are you, in fact doing hybrid work or or are you doing, you know, remote friendly work? With the focus in the office, a hybrid? If we're going to be really technical and semantic about it, a hybrid is two things coming together to create a third entity.

    00;11;09;08 - 00;11;28;18
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, a mule is a horse and a donkey, but as an old farm boy, a mule is a mule. I mean, it is its own thing. And I think over time we are going to develop this third way of working, this hybrid work that is not only who works where, but the element of time gets folded in.

    00;11;28;20 - 00;11;38;14
    Wayne Turmel
    So it's what work gets done where and when that work gets done. And the balance between synchronous and asynchronous is going to be very different.

    00;11;38;14 - 00;11;54;20
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I think that's huge. And I think, you know, you know, when it in the in the first book we, we introduced that we used the word hybrid. And and I wish that I could I wish that everybody on the internet would say, oh, these guys created that that phrase for the hybrid team, which, no, we can't, we can't say.

    00;11;54;22 - 00;12;12;23
    Kevin Eikenberry
    But when we use that word, that's what we meant even in 2018. Right. And and I think it's it's not it's not always meaning that. But ultimately that's what that's what it needs to mean. And organizations that figure out how to do it that way, if that's the way they want to do work, will have a competitive advantage.

    00;12;12;26 - 00;12;29;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So, Kevin, you know, you've had the Kevin Like Mary group for over 30 years. And we've been a hybrid team for a very, very long time. And so if you were starting a business today, if you were starting this business today, what would you do differently than you did when you started?

    00;12;30;00 - 00;12;46;24
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Well, what I do different than when I started it, different than what I would do, knowing what I know now, I suppose. Yeah. but I think that in terms of, how I hired who I, where I look for the hiring pool, I don't think it would change. Much like, I think that, you know, I do have a separate building.

    00;12;46;26 - 00;13;21;17
    Kevin Eikenberry
    That's where I'm sitting right now, that Marissa, you come to two days a week, but only if I'm here. Right? and I think there would still be a place, it would be like it is. And it's not. Wouldn't. How's everybody? Because not everyone would be. How? Isabel? Because they're all across the country. I'm not sure. I mean, there's lots of things that that we could do different about our business, but in terms of how it's set up, I'm not sure I would change that much because I think that what we have works not only works for us, but we're generally I, you know, while there's always room for improvement, we're relatively productive.

    00;13;21;25 - 00;13;31;05
    Kevin Eikenberry
    There's there's good relationships. we have we're able to collaborate. And I don't think that having us all in the same place, or even less so, would make any difference.

    00;13;31;07 - 00;13;32;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, that makes a lot of, you know.

    00;13;32;23 - 00;13;57;11
    Wayne Turmel
    What I'm going to I'm going to mildly contradict that. Okay. when I joined the group, I lived in Chicago. Most of the people were in, most of the people were there, and we communicated it a little bit differently. We got together more often. We spoke more often, I think, because the longevity of the people on our team has been there for a while.

    00;13;58;00 - 00;14;23;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Kevin's comfort level as the boss with waiting, you know, letting people get their work done and trusting that we will come to him proactively if there's something that needs to be addressed. I think the way and the comfort level with that is different than it was even a few years ago. As you know, the decision was made.

    00;14;23;05 - 00;14;28;15
    Wayne Turmel
    We're not going to focus on hiring people in Indianapolis. We're not going to.

    00;14;28;17 - 00;14;29;22
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. so, I mean, I'm not.

    00;14;29;22 - 00;14;32;28
    Wayne Turmel
    Disagreeing with I think Kevin's comfort level and skill level.

    00;14;32;28 - 00;14;46;01
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Yeah, I, I won't disagree with that either. and yet, I think if the question is about being willing to, to bring people from different places. Yeah. Like, I mean, I think part of the reason we write the book, The Long Distance Leader and why we write a second edition of it, is to help people continue to build those skills.

    00;14;46;01 - 00;15;03;16
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. And I think that that's the question we get asked a lot now. Marissa is okay, why a second version of the book? And people say, well, yeah, we get it that the world is different, but do we still need this book? Because we've all been many of us been doing this for 2 or 3 years. I said, well, we've all needed new, more leadership training, even though we've been leading for longer than that.

    00;15;03;16 - 00;15;26;26
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And I think a lot of people have have haven't really locked into some of these things that maybe they know because they've done it for a few years. And I think the idea of this book is in part to not only show us what's different and changing, but also what we need to make sure we're really doing well, that I'm I'm pretty confident not all leaders of remote hybrid distributed teams are doing.

    00;15;26;29 - 00;15;36;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So for people who are reading the book or, you know, once they do read the book, what are some actionable steps that they can take, both organizationally or even professionally. After reading?

    00;15;36;23 - 00;15;55;16
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Okay, here's a short answer and then I'll let you go. Wayne. The short answer is don't just read it. Do something like you will determine when you read it, what those most actionable steps are. And I think we've written a book that is actionable and that gives you very specific things that you can go do. In fact, every chapter tells you, gives you some examples.

    00;15;55;18 - 00;16;08;12
    Kevin Eikenberry
    But the point that I'm making is that it the best thing you can do is go take action on whatever those most important things are to you, because it would be a bit presumptuous for Wayne and I to determine which two things those would be for an individual leader.

    00;16;08;12 - 00;16;32;00
    Wayne Turmel
    I just think that, you know, the the most dangerous thing is to think you've got it all figured out. And one of the challenges that we're hearing from our clients is, oh, we know that people could use a little help, but we've done remote, right? We did remote training during Covid. People know what they're doing now, and we never entirely know what we're doing.

    00;16;32;00 - 00;16;49;00
    Wayne Turmel
    And there's some backsliding and there's some things that we thought people knew that they're not doing. And so maintaining that skill development is really important. And I know that sounds self-serving. since that's the business we're in. Okay. But it also happens to be true.

    00;16;49;03 - 00;17;07;06
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Yeah. There's a difference between knowing something and doing something. Right. it's a and there's a big gap there a lot of the times. And so I, you know, I think Wayne and I are, are coming to that same point, like if you or if your organization did some training on remote, that's fine. That's great. but the question is how is it going now?

    00;17;07;13 - 00;17;20;17
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And if it's not going in the ways you'd like it to go, or you think it could be better, then I'm confident you'll find nuggets in this book. in the second edition of this book that would help you as a leader, but also help the leaders in your organization.

    00;17;20;17 - 00;17;29;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So we've gone from leader to teammate to team. Kevin, what's next for you in the world of remote and hybrid work? What's the next thing you're focusing on?

    00;17;29;22 - 00;17;49;10
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Well, I'm I'm writing a new book that's not specifically about that, but it is about the future of work. In some ways it comes out next, next March. And maybe I can convince you guys to have me on to talk about the flexible leader. or flexible leadership when, when that time comes down the road. So but it's not specifically or solely about remote.

    00;17;49;10 - 00;18;01;07
    Kevin Eikenberry
    The word remote doesn't show up or hybrid doesn't show up in the title. But certainly, there are hat tips and conversations about not only what we've been going through as lessons, but also what we do moving forward as well.

    00;18;01;10 - 00;18;15;12
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That's great. And Wayne, I know that hybrid work has been something that you've been talking about a lot. You mentioned the mule versus, you know, donkey earlier. So what are some aspects with hybrid that you're obsessed with exploring right now?

    00;18;15;14 - 00;18;41;00
    Wayne Turmel
    I think it's that being intentional about the balance of synchronous and asynchronous work. You know, my favorite example is we've all walked into meetings and had to sit there while, you know, all the preamble and context is created. Well, we could do a lot of that beforehand. And then the meeting happens. And then we've all walked out of meetings and halfway down the hallway we've got oh, man, you know what?

    00;18;41;00 - 00;19;06;26
    Wayne Turmel
    I should have said is correct. And so there is getting together in collaboration time. And then there's thinking and planning time on both ends, which can make way better use of our time and result in better outcomes. And so it's what does that hybrid work look like and how do we get better, smarter, faster about it is kind of where my brain is at.

    00;19;06;28 - 00;19;22;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. Well I'm excited to do some episodes about that in the future. And before we wrap up, I have one last question. So other than the pandemic, which obviously changed a lot of things about remote and hybrid work, what is one surprising change in remote work that you didn't anticipate?

    00;19;22;22 - 00;19;45;17
    Wayne Turmel
    It's it's who wants remote work? one of the things that the numbers are showing is people thought that the youngsters wouldn't want to go to the office, and they all want to stay home and, you know, do their work. Between playing video games, no young people want to go to the office. They're early in their career. They're more socially program.

    00;19;45;17 - 00;20;05;11
    Wayne Turmel
    And they they want to learn and soak up the knowledge and the culture of the company, the people that are most demanding, remote work are middle managers, people in the middle of their career who know how to do their job, and they just want to do it, and they want to do it in a way that they can do it best.

    00;20;05;11 - 00;20;16;01
    Wayne Turmel
    They want some flexibility in their time. So some of the assumptions about who is going to want to work remotely have not proven to be the way we thought they were.

    00;20;16;07 - 00;20;50;15
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I think the thing part of part of I think I shared part of my answer earlier with this whole compacting of the timeline, but I but I will say that I think that it's been a bit surprising and I think generally hopeful and helpful that, we've, we've added in a whole other conversation, not just about the where and the when of work, but the why of work, which is, which is, people wanting to have a better sense of, of why they're there and what and finding meaning in their work and how they hook.

    00;20;50;23 - 00;20;51;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Work.

    00;20;51;14 - 00;21;09;08
    Kevin Eikenberry
    To life. Right. Which has been messy for a long time, got messier when people were working from the place that they live. But I think the the ongoing conversation about all of that, I think is generally healthy, and we need to keep thinking about it as individuals, for ourselves, but also as leaders in organizations.

    00;21;09;11 - 00;21;16;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Kevin, I know that, you know, when this episode comes out, we're about to have virtual con. do you want to talk a little bit about that before we wrap up?

    00;21;17;02 - 00;21;43;27
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Yeah, I can just very quickly. So, you know, back at the start of the pandemic, I had this harebrained idea that we should, when no one was having doing any training and couldn't get away, couldn't do that. So we created this thing we called virtual Leader Con, and we've continued to do it. It's evolved somewhat, but, on September 17th through 19th, we're doing two and a half days where we will have a bunch of experts join me, to on a, a virtual platform that allows for lots of participation and engagement.

    00;21;44;00 - 00;22;01;29
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And we're going to bring those leaders in, those thought leaders in to have conversations with, with our participants from around the world to talk about what matters. And I think the thing that makes a difference than a podcast or a webinar or other those kinds of things, is that that the the direction of the, of the conversation is guided much by the people that are there.

    00;22;01;29 - 00;22;24;05
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So we'd love to have you join us. It's completely free virtual contact. Com and I think the thing that specifically relates to this show is that that first half day on September the 17th, Wayne will be joining me at the beginning, and at the end we'll be we'll be doing a Q&A, but we'll have three guests, and that whole session will be about the future of work, hybrid work, and all those sorts of things.

    00;22;24;05 - 00;22;40;09
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So if you're listening to this show, you definitely want to join us that half day virtual leader. Contact. Com. And if you decide you wanted to have the recordings and transcripts of those sessions, you can get them for free if you preorder a book. And I know that's where you're headed is to talk about that. That is our I'll let you be.

    00;22;40;09 - 00;22;45;14
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I hope that we'll have you all join us at Virtual Con. And, and thank you guys for having me on the show.

    00;22;45;21 - 00;23;09;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes. Thank you so much for being here. And, Wayne, as always, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. And before we go, as we've already been discussing, the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is available for preorder and will be launching on September 17th. As we just talked about a minute ago, and this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

    00;23;09;24 - 00;23;32;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Kevin and Wayne show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Preorder your copy now at Long Distance Work life.com/lvl and strengthen your remote leadership skills today. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to the Longest and Spark Life version ups, transcripts, and other resources.

    00;23;32;10 - 00;23;55;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Make sure to visit Long Distance worklife.com if you haven't yet. Subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating and review. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

    00;23;55;14 - 00;24;15;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    We would love to hear from you and thanks for joining us. And it's Wayne. Like to say, don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.

    00;24;16;01 - 00;24;16;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You.


    Featured Guest

    Name: Kevin Eikenberry

    Bio: Chief Potential Officer of The Kevin Eikenberry Group and co-author of Long-Distance Leader

    Timestamps

    00:00 Intro: Welcome to the Show
    01:33 What’s New in The Long-Distance Leader, 2nd Edition?
    04:22 Zoom Fatigue and Remote Work Tools
    07:02 Hybrid Work: Challenges and Opportunities
    09:08 Remote-First vs. Remote-Friendly Workplaces
    11:09 Building Trust in Hybrid Teams
    15:03 What You’ll Learn from The 2nd Edition
    17:29 Kevin’s Next Project: The Flexible Leader
    19:22 Who Actually Prefers Remote Work?
    20:50 Leading Hybrid Teams with Intention
    22:50 Virtual LeaderCon: Join Us!
    23:09 Wrap-Up and How to Preorder the Book

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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    The Long-Distance Leader
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