Navigating Talent Stagnation with Khaled Hussein of Betterleap

00;00;07;28 - 00;00;34;03
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Long Distance Worklife where we help you thrive. Survive, generally, keep the weasels at bay in the crazy world of remote and hybrid work. I am Wayne Turmel your humble servant. My, normal co-host. Marissa is not here this week, which means it's an interview episode, which is always so much fun.

00;00;34;05 - 00;01;03;23
Wayne Turmel
Today we are going to talk about, employment, talent stagnation and how people think about remote work and searching for talent with the very, very talented Khaled Hussein from Betterleap. So far, I've remembered the name and I've remembered the company. We're off to a great start. And talent. Who who has just moved to my city of Las Vegas.

00;01;03;23 - 00;01;04;28
Wayne Turmel
So welcome.

00;01;05;01 - 00;01;14;24
Khaled Hussein
Yes. Thank you so much for having me. And I was like, all right, you nailed the name. And then the company and everything that's like, great, I'm in. Great to be here.

00;01;14;27 - 00;01;40;24
Wayne Turmel
At this hour of the morning. That is no small feat. So when you're talking about talent stagnant, we've been through the great Resignation and we went through the Great Compromise and we've been through a thousand little jargon d'azur waves over the last few years. When you talk about the great stagnation, what are you talking about?

00;01;40;24 - 00;02;08;13
Khaled Hussein
Yeah, I'm really glad you you know, it's kind of setting the stage of what that is. And I think, you know, we're very, we're we're really good at coming up with terms that describe what, you know, what the current employment market is kind of going through right now. We are entering a very interesting stage where, you know, the talent stagnation is it's really, the way I define it is it's a mismatch between the skilled workers and the employers.

00;02;08;15 - 00;02;29;25
Khaled Hussein
expectation and employers demand, growth, demand and so on one hand, you find that, you know, employers that we have the phase of, it was it was really a talent market. And you get to choose who you want to work with. And employers are willing to overpay for the talent and really consider the need for remote and work life balance and all that.

00;02;29;25 - 00;02;50;20
Khaled Hussein
And I think we're going to move to, you know, the other end of the the spectrum right now in different sectors. By the way, this is a very nuanced, you know, element work is is a very nuanced, industry. And so it really, it depends on what sectors. But we kind of move to the other end of the spectrum where we it's pretty much an employer market right now.

00;02;50;20 - 00;03;23;08
Khaled Hussein
And you have talent that is, you know, looking for employment. And a lot of employers are trying to reduce their talent, force their genre, find more efficient ways to, supplement their, their needs and work needs and so forth. And, and, increase their overall productivity or reduce their cost. and, and the talent is kind of starting to look for hey, this was a really good phase where we found, you know, companies that were accommodating and and so forth.

00;03;23;08 - 00;03;27;08
Khaled Hussein
And I think now it's a bit more challenging for, for the talent to find that.

00;03;27;08 - 00;04;00;24
Wayne Turmel
I think it is. And I think that some of this, especially around remote and hybrid work, is that working remotely or the flexibility to work hybrid has been about the only perk available. You know, the money is what it is. you know, and so when when companies think about, well, we're going to be hybrid or we're going to be remote for it's not so much a strategy as a hostage negotiation, right?

00;04;00;27 - 00;04;15;14
Wayne Turmel
How much can we make them come into the office before they quit. And the workers are saying, how much can I not go into the office before they fire me? And that's not terribly strategic or good thinking.

00;04;15;16 - 00;04;16;05
Khaled Hussein
Yeah.

00;04;16;05 - 00;04;37;09
Wayne Turmel
So what I like to do is start at the top with the CEOs and is their their thinking about their their work strategy. And they're thinking about how are we going to be remote or we get it. You know, a lot of times, well, we want the best talent. And what they really mean is we want the best talent that lives within 20 miles of where we are.

00;04;37;13 - 00;04;51;19
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. so what are the CEOs? Those the kind of C-suite. What are they thinking? And what are the the things that are keeping them up night when it comes to recruiting talent?

00;04;51;21 - 00;05;16;10
Khaled Hussein
You know what? When I, I have an answer that I'll share with you. But there is also another thing that I don't think I ever share, that I'm just kind of feeling this right now, so. Oh, cool. I yeah, I literally don't think I ever said that on any other, kind of media, but one thing CEOs think a lot about right now, and I think when we talk about CEOs, you know, there is, you know, fortune 500 CEOs, but there is also the, you know, that that everybody else.

00;05;16;10 - 00;05;37;25
Khaled Hussein
And so, I do think, you know, so this answer is a little bit nuanced, but I do think it applies to both to a degree. I think a big part, big kind of point that CEOs think a lot about is am I doing what everybody else also is doing? So if you get the top ten CEOs, they're starting to bring people back to the office.

00;05;37;25 - 00;05;56;26
Khaled Hussein
And there is some pressure from shareholders and investors to say, hey, it looks like, you know, the CEO of this massive conglomerate is bringing people back to the office. And he's citing all these stacks of, you know, things that are going to be better if you bring people back to the office. Then as a CEO, you kind of feel a little bit of a pressure to follow suit.

00;05;56;29 - 00;05;59;13
Wayne Turmel
And I imagine that's completely true.

00;05;59;16 - 00;06;23;28
Khaled Hussein
And I yeah, there is there is definitely that. And I think even if a lot of CEOs are not, you know, going out there publicly saying that, that they're feeling that pressure, there is definitely an internal pressure that they're, they're, facing. And you see this and the way I know that is, I am I'm very fortunate to have been an investor in many different startups and many different work with many different CEOs, mentor for a lot.

00;06;23;28 - 00;06;40;19
Khaled Hussein
And we have these discussions. We have the discussion of like, I really like my set up being either in office or being for remote or whatever, but then all of my investors are telling me their whole portfolio is going to the other way, and I feel like maybe I should. What do you think? And so there is an element of that.

00;06;40;19 - 00;06;57;25
Khaled Hussein
Is there is that external pressure on CEOs to follow what kind of the new thing is? There was a phase where the new thing is everything is remote and hey, remote is great and you save costs and office space and all that and every CEO all of a sudden move the company to being remote. And then there is the wave is kind of going back to return to office.

00;06;57;25 - 00;07;19;28
Khaled Hussein
And then there is a lot of CEOs coming back too. So there is an element of really just what's happening out there. you don't want to stand out too much. but the other thing is the funny and the irony in that is standing out is actually the advantage. And so being the on the other side is what's going to give you the advantage to attract the talent that like that side.

00;07;20;01 - 00;07;36;15
Khaled Hussein
And so this is kind of, you know, like sticking and it's an identity company culture, identity and all of that is if we are remote, we're sticking to remote. If everybody going back to the office, that's even better for us, because we're going to get the talent that's interested in being remote easier and it's, you know, more accessible for us.

00;07;36;17 - 00;08;01;11
Wayne Turmel
you know, you just said something that's kind of interesting and it's a little bit of a rabbit hole, but it's my show. And if I want to go down the rabbit hole, I can do that. I love it. you said that, you know, CEOs are kind of struggling with this. How comfortable are they on average? And I know it's nuanced and I know it's by industry and all kinds of things, but have they become more comfortable with the whole concept of remote?

00;08;01;11 - 00;08;05;28
Wayne Turmel
You know, before Covid, they were the they were the ones that were convinced this was never going to work.

00;08;05;29 - 00;08;09;09
Khaled Hussein
Yep. So what I see in the market today. Yeah.

00;08;09;10 - 00;08;12;10
Wayne Turmel
And have they gotten more comfortable with it.

00;08;12;12 - 00;08;43;22
Khaled Hussein
Yeah I see a lot of, I see it at different stages. I see a lot of times in the early stage, you know, you have two co-founders and maybe 2 or 3, you know, team members. They are actually comfortable either way. They're comfortable being everybody is in the same room. And they tend to be, you know, friends that got together and they have, you know, and new concept or a new startup and they want to start it or I see that, hey, you know, two co-founders and then they found two other, you know, or three other team members that are remote.

00;08;43;22 - 00;09;02;23
Khaled Hussein
And everybody just pants on. And they're really kind of very efficient. And I, I see, you know, I see both sides 5050. And I think this is really great. As the company continues to grow and you add more and more people and there's more processes and there's a middle management layer and there is, you know, you start to really scale your business.

00;09;02;25 - 00;09;32;21
Khaled Hussein
I see a lot of them become pretty uncomfortable with remote, because they have this little bit of fear. And I think, you know, it's not completely irrational, but they do have this fear of, hey, we can be more efficient and more productive if we bring people to the office, because there's a lot of, you know, the, the hallway conversations that are happening, the information sharing as a CEO, your number one thing is, you know, besides recruiting is making sure everybody has all the right information they need.

00;09;32;23 - 00;10;01;08
Khaled Hussein
And so information entropy happens a lot better if everybody is obviously in, in the office. So I think they're not totally, wrong in that. But the flip side of that is there is also while you share the information, there is actually in a way, depending on the company, there is a little bit of, efficiency loss in the hallway communication, because this is not heads down.

00;10;01;08 - 00;10;24;11
Khaled Hussein
I'm doing my work. And, you know, we're having a chat. and so there is, you know, pros and cons for either, and I think it really goes back to you as founders and as going to C-suite, what type of company we want to build. And I think just remove all other distractions and remove media as saying, you know, employees are the vacations, remote vacations and things of that nature.

00;10;24;11 - 00;10;31;26
Khaled Hussein
You just need to ignore all the noise and focus on kind of building the right company that you want to build and, and was the right, and you stick to that identity.

00;10;31;26 - 00;10;49;07
Wayne Turmel
So what are three things? Let's say if I've decided that I want, at the very least a hybrid culture, right, that people aren't going to be in the office all day, every day, what are three things that we need to think about if we're going to go out and recruit people?

00;10;49;07 - 00;11;10;27
Khaled Hussein
Yeah. So hybrid is interesting. Hybrid is so interesting to me. And I'm having a little bit of, you know, some some thoughts on hybrid. Hybrid is interesting because if it's going to be hybrid then you have to hire people that are within your 20 miles, right. Or 30 miles. So you kind of limited your talent pool. And I have to hire within this.

00;11;11;00 - 00;11;36;03
Wayne Turmel
Although I have heard I have a great example, the federal government and I will not name the agency because I don't want to throw anybody under a bus. But there's one federal agency. The rule is you have to be in the office two days every pay period. So somebody I know actually commutes from Florida to Washington DC to fulfill those two dates.

00;11;36;05 - 00;11;52;23
Khaled Hussein
Wow. Okay. Yeah. And and, you know, interesting to know also how long the pay period. But, yeah, this is this this makes sense. But you know, for the majority of the time you end up if you're thinking of a hybrid, you're kind of thinking of people that are more or less in your city or kind of, you know, easy commute.

00;11;52;23 - 00;12;16;11
Khaled Hussein
And so it limits the talent pool. Personally, I've been kind of telling people, you, you know, it's better to choose one or the other and create more frequency. And so, of getting together. So if you are remote and you're, you know, you get together every quarter making every month, you know, you can make that happen. And so but that way just opens up the talent pool for you.

00;12;16;14 - 00;12;33;07
Khaled Hussein
and, you know, we are we are a remote company. we had an office, and we, we meet in the office every single day for a very long time. And then we ended up kind of hiring. We wanted to expand our talent pool, and we didn't want to restrict the specific job. So we turned the company into remote.

00;12;33;10 - 00;12;50;07
Khaled Hussein
And so, I, you know, doing the hybrid, it felt like work kind of, in many ways, you know, we'll see that there's a lot of, research being done on that. But in many ways, I feel like hybrid misses that the benefits of both sides. It's a you and I.

00;12;50;08 - 00;13;13;27
Wayne Turmel
I completely agree, and I think it goes back to what I said a little bit earlier, which is for most organizations, hybrid is a compromise. It's not a strategy. Right. It's like we want really you. Yeah, one way or the other. And so we'll call ourselves hybrid. But that kind of timid make a decision already you morons. thing.

00;13;13;29 - 00;13;28;20
Khaled Hussein
Exactly. I'm trying to beat around the bush, but you're exactly right, I think. I think he can. I get the worst of both sides here. It's like two is one and just going to stick to it. And there is tooling and systems and processes for each one. Like we know how to work in office. And there is, you know, playbooks for that.

00;13;28;25 - 00;13;39;24
Khaled Hussein
We've also learned how to work remote in the last few years. And that is playbooks for that and tooling and everything down there. We don't really have anything for that thing in the middle. Like, you know, which one is it.

00;13;39;27 - 00;13;50;17
Wayne Turmel
And so and it's so easy for companies to if they are hybrid, they default to the rules that made sense when everybody was in the office.

00;13;50;20 - 00;13;52;00
Khaled Hussein
That's right. That's right.

00;13;52;03 - 00;14;16;25
Wayne Turmel
Okay. So that's on the so make a decision already is what we're trying to say. so now let's talk about the talent pool of folks. Right. What are they finding out there is I I've heard that there's a lot of bait and switch around remote work that, you know, people are kind of promising a degree of flexibility that doesn't really exist.

00;14;16;27 - 00;14;33;02
Wayne Turmel
so, first of all, if I'm out there looking for a job which thankfully, knock on wood, I am not. But if I were out there looking for a job, what am I looking for? What's legit? What are the things that maybe I need to watch out for?

00;14;33;05 - 00;14;56;27
Khaled Hussein
Yeah, you know, I kind of following the thread from before choosing a hybrid company, you know, has its own challenges also because, you know, the different, pros and cons for either side of very well defined. But that middle layer is and honestly there are we do even, you know, for better link when we're hiring. We do talk to a lot of talent that, hey, I like to be around people.

00;14;56;27 - 00;15;13;29
Khaled Hussein
I like to meet people I like. So, you know, that frequency of getting together is really important. I think we're social beings, and I get that there's nothing, wrong about us. Not crazy or anything, but there is also the. Hey, I'd like to be heads down. I like to find talent, and I like to be able to travel.

00;15;13;29 - 00;15;35;18
Khaled Hussein
I like to take care of my family. I like to do this and this and this and that and and I get my work done. And I think that could be done anywhere. I'm fortunate, you know, within tech and all that kind of stuff. And that could be done, anywhere. So I do think talent now are definitely starting to run into CEOs and companies making decision for either hybrid or coming back to office.

00;15;35;18 - 00;16;09;27
Khaled Hussein
So now they have to choose not just the company that they're passionate about, their mission and their product, but they have to choose a company that's within a location that they're willing to via. And so it makes it even harder for them to really find, you know, the right job and the right opportunity. But also on top of that is, you have to you have to think, if I'm going to be remote, then the pool of company is now that is willing to be remote, that will continue that you kind of when you're talking to that C-suite, that that company and you see that they will continue to be because you don't want to

00;16;09;27 - 00;16;28;20
Khaled Hussein
work at a company that six months later they're going to change that policy. And so, you know, you have to kind of test that as a candidate and you have to find a company that. But the pool of those companies have shrunk a lot. right now there is definitely a lot more, a lot less companies that are willing to be fully remote.

00;16;28;20 - 00;16;34;06
Khaled Hussein
And there is a lot more towards coming back to office or some sort of, of a hybrid.

00;16;34;07 - 00;16;55;10
Wayne Turmel
Is the coming back to the office thing. Is that just, you know, the pendulum is going to keep swinging. We're going to all go back to the office and then people are going to get fed up and start working from home again and working remotely. And then somebody in three years is going to get a bug in their hat and they're going to bring everybody back to the office.

00;16;55;17 - 00;17;03;07
Wayne Turmel
I get the sense that it's just this pendulum that keeps swinging more so than conscious decisions being made.

00;17;03;10 - 00;17;22;12
Khaled Hussein
See, I actually feel, this one, you know, I kind of have a slightly different opinion there. I do think we were forced to do remote. I think we had, you know, the external event that kind of forced everybody to be remote. So I don't think it was, you know, somebody that came up with this idea. And then we swung.

00;17;22;12 - 00;17;38;02
Khaled Hussein
So I actually think it was the initial kind of change was an external factor and we had to adapt. Human beings are great at that. And now we realize, well, okay, we ran into all kinds of things here that we kind of maybe let's go back to what we were used to. But I don't think there's a swing here.

00;17;38;02 - 00;17;58;29
Khaled Hussein
I actually think we're just kind of going back to what we're used to. This was just a forced thing. And what I think will happen is not that we kind of go back to being normal, but what I think will happen is different stages. I think we're going to see early stage companies are more open to being remote, and that will continue to be the case.

00;17;58;29 - 00;18;19;14
Khaled Hussein
So I don't think there is a swing yet. I think it will continue to be the case because that the different stages of companies were remote really worked so well. I think those or just will recognize that and will continue to do that. And you'll find the investors even pushing for this. Refine CEOs and founders and playbooks are being decimated about like how do you do that?

00;18;19;16 - 00;18;41;28
Khaled Hussein
And and I think, you know, larger stages, I think, you know, we're seeing right now with, you know, the apples of the world and Amazon that were not there kind of bringing, you know, people back to the office. And I think that will likely can I continue to be that. And then, so I think it's going to depend on which stage you're going to be part of.

00;18;42;01 - 00;18;49;06
Wayne Turmel
So if I want remote to be part of my work, I should be looking at startups as opposed to legacy companies.

00;18;49;08 - 00;18;57;23
Khaled Hussein
I think you will have higher chances of finding the right company with the right culture that is open to remote as you go a little bit earlier stage.

00;18;57;25 - 00;19;28;24
Wayne Turmel
Dang well, this conversation went all kinds of places and I am not mad at that, actually. thank you, Khalid, for, you know, putting us in the C-suite mindset set and letting us know what's going on. if you want to know more about Khalid and about Better Leap and all that good stuff, we will have the, links in the show notes, which I will talk about in a second.

00;19;28;27 - 00;19;31;04
Wayne Turmel
Khalid, anything you want to leave us with?

00;19;31;06 - 00;19;59;03
Khaled Hussein
first of all, thank you so much for having me. You really. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I think, the one thing I'll say is, hey, recruiting is. And kind of the labor force is, is core to our culture and core to our economy. And I think we go through the ups and downs of that. And I think, you know, just, in a time where markets are tough and people are getting laid off and people are getting you know, try to find work life balance and try to find the right job opportunities, things can get tough.

00;19;59;03 - 00;20;17;07
Khaled Hussein
But I want to I want to say that we've been here before and we survived this and and I know we will again. And I think I don't want people to lose hope. There's a lot of opportunities out there. And there is, we just have to be more clever in our approach. And, there is there there's hope.

00;20;17;13 - 00;20;42;23
Wayne Turmel
There is hope. We will take that as our final words. Again, if you are interested in the transcript for this, conversation or learning more about Khalid and better Lee, we will have all of that stuff at long distance work life.com. we are really, really proud of the fact that our numbers are growing. People are listening to us.

00;20;42;24 - 00;21;08;05
Wayne Turmel
You can decide why you decided to do that. but like and subscribe and tell others about the show. We are very excited. We also love to hear from you. We get a lot of show ideas from our listeners. pet peeves, things you want to vent about, things that you want to know that we should look and find good guests like Khalid.

00;21;08;07 - 00;21;32;05
Wayne Turmel
Drop a line to either Marissa. Right. You can find that, you can find us on LinkedIn. You can just email us either Wayne or Marissa at Kevin eikenberry.com. And if you are interested in learning the skills necessary to be a leader in the hybrid remote, ever changing world of work, check out our long distance leadership series.

00;21;32;11 - 00;21;53;01
Wayne Turmel
We do those several times a year. Or if you're interested in bringing that in-house to your company, do that. Darn it, I am done. That's another week of our lives. Khaled, thank you so much for being with us. And, for those of you listening, have a great week. Don't let the weasels get you down.

00;21;53;03 - 00;22;05;05
Unknown


00;22;05;07 - 00;22;06;17
Unknown