Guests, Hybrid Work, Working Remotely

Flexible Workspaces and the Future of Work with Sam Rosen

Wayne Turmel is joined by Sam Rosen, the founder of Deskpass, to explore how the office landscape has changed in recent years. Sam shares his journey from opening one of Chicago’s first co-working spaces to developing tools that connect companies and remote workers with flexible workspaces. They discuss the evolving role of offices, how companies can make strategic real estate decisions, and the benefits of offering co-working options to remote and hybrid teams. Sam also dives into the differences between designing workspaces with a human-centered approach versus the traditional real estate mindset. Tune in to discover how you can leverage flexible spaces to improve productivity and retain top talent.

Key Takeaways

  • Flexible workspaces provide a valuable alternative to traditional offices, offering professional environments tailored to diverse work needs.
  • A human-centered design approach prioritizes worker needs over merely filling office space, unlike traditional real estate perspectives.
  • Companies are reducing their office footprints to save costs while using co-working spaces to maintain access to professional environments.
  • Proximity and convenience are key benefits of co-working spaces, making them ideal when working from home isn't suitable.
  • In-person meetings should be reserved for deep collaboration or cultural reinforcement, with a focus on asynchronous work whenever possible.
  • Successful remote companies prioritize culture, communication tools, and processes over physical office space.
  • Access to flexible workspaces helps attract and retain talent, expanding the hiring pool and supporting employees' varied work preferences.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;27 - 00;00;37;23
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Long Distance Worklife, the podcast where we attempt to help you thrive. Survive, generally keep the Weasels Hat Bay when we are dealing with remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Trammell. I am the subject matter for remote work and the evolving workplace at the Kevin Eikenberry Group. My usual partner and producer, Marissa is not here today.

00;00;37;25 - 00;01;03;11
Wayne Turmel
The good news is that means we have an interview with a fabulous guest, in this case, Sam Rosen from Desk Pass, who is going to talk to us about the changes that digital work have wrought upon us over the last couple of years. And so, with no further ado, joining us from Chicago is Sam Rosen. Hi, Sam.

00;01;03;13 - 00;01;05;24
Sam Rosen
Hi, Wayne. Thanks for having me, man.

00;01;05;26 - 00;01;13;07
Wayne Turmel
Thank you for being had a, real quick. Who are you and what steps pass and why do we care?

00;01;13;10 - 00;01;38;02
Sam Rosen
Good question. I'm sam, and, I run a little business called that space I've been in, sort of the intersection of design and technology and where in how we work for about 15 years. So I started by, started a branding design agency and then opened the first co-working space in Chicago, where there are about 300 in the whole world now.

00;01;38;02 - 00;02;05;06
Sam Rosen
There's 40, 50,000. And since then, I've been building tools and technology around this problem. So today, I work on desktops. I'm the founder of that space. And that space is a tool that really connects individuals and companies with thousands and thousands of fantastic, flexible workspaces, co-working spaces, you know, places to book a desk for a day, meeting for an hour, private office, all on demand.

00;02;05;06 - 00;02;06;26
Sam Rosen
And that's that's what I do.

00;02;06;28 - 00;02;22;17
Wayne Turmel
All right. So whenever anybody creates a technology or does anything like that, they're clearly trying to solve for a problem. So what was the problem you were trying to solve for, with past?

00;02;22;20 - 00;02;50;09
Sam Rosen
Yeah. You know, it's funny because a lot of people in this space now, come from finance and come from real estate. And I've always come from design, and just trying to solve problems for humans. So, coming across co-working really, really early realized that was a really interesting solution to offer a place for people who want to work but necessarily don't work for the same company and just are looking for a space to get work done nearby.

00;02;50;09 - 00;03;19;08
Sam Rosen
So, and I found that to be really interesting and a new problem. And then the, the other problem was, and I think this is more clear than ever, is, offices have always been pretty empty. Offices are traditionally fairly underutilized, and that's one of the biggest asset classes in the world. So the opportunity to create something out of empty office space and share it with people so they can be happy and get good work done, is seemed like a good problem to solve.

00;03;19;10 - 00;03;39;16
Wayne Turmel
Now. You said something a moment ago, which I've dealt with remote work for 25 years. I should have thought of this, and for some reason I had a blinding flash of the obvious, which is it makes sense for real estate people to get involved in this, because there's all these offices sitting empty, and how are we going to find uses for them?

00;03;39;19 - 00;03;51;10
Wayne Turmel
What in your mind is the difference between coming at it from a real estate standpoint, where it's desks and rooms and whatever, and a design standpoint?

00;03;51;12 - 00;04;19;09
Sam Rosen
You know, I think the perspective we've always had is like, who's way, what is what is waiting live? Who does he live with? Where can he focus and get work done? And how do you build a really brilliant environment for Wayne to get his best work done, irrespective of everything else? And I think often folks that come from real estate and finance are just they're they're trying to put pegs and holes, right.

00;04;19;09 - 00;04;51;17
Sam Rosen
Which is there's empty office space. Let's fill it up. And I think for me, from the design perspective, I think for a long time the experience for workers was really driven around, you know, the the bank that owns the building, the management company that manages the building, you know, supporting the owner of the company that owns the company and building a financial arrangement that works for all those parties, but less so, like Wayne and like what works best for Wayne today.

00;04;51;19 - 00;05;19;23
Sam Rosen
And I think that's where I come from is like, how do you everyone has different needs as workers depending on what company they work for, what role they're in. I got two little kiddos that live in the suburbs, you know, like my kids have Covid today. Like my needs are different today than yesterday, right. And, and I think that's what I'm really interested is solving problems around the human and less around like X, Y, Z Corp and you know, and x, y, z bank.

00;05;19;26 - 00;05;24;20
Wayne Turmel
Okay. So we've done our burn the patriarchy death to make.

00;05;24;22 - 00;05;25;02
Sam Rosen


00;05;25;04 - 00;05;57;25
Wayne Turmel
Peace with this. So let's get really practical. A lot of people, I think, think of I'm either working at home or I'm in the office. What are some of the advantages of these kind of third spaces? Because to me, having other humans around is not the most beneficial piece of this. Yeah. But I have used spaces like this before, so, you know, if somebody is thinking about when does this make sense?

00;05;57;25 - 00;06;01;07
Wayne Turmel
When does it not? What's the the answer there.

00;06;01;09 - 00;06;23;18
Sam Rosen
Yeah. Look, I think there's a lot of things that people will say about what makes a great workspace. But I think the underlying thing is proximity distance. Right. Like if I can't work from home because my kids are home or I don't have a suitable work environment, like trying to find a place close to me that's convenient to me where I don't have to commute or schlep or go.

00;06;23;18 - 00;06;49;19
Sam Rosen
That's a that's an underlying, really important piece. I think. Other than that is not all, but most of these co-working spaces and flexible workspaces, they're like very purposefully built for work. So they tend to be really thoughtful work environments that are built and amenities better than the average office. So, you know, coffee, tea, events, different types of workspaces.

00;06;49;26 - 00;07;09;10
Sam Rosen
I think these often are nicer workspaces than the average workspace. And then the last thing I'd say is I totally connect with what you're saying, which is I don't, you know, like, people need different things and they often need different things at different times. Like some days I need a quiet place to do a podcast or to work on a deck.

00;07;09;11 - 00;07;31;12
Sam Rosen
Right. And then sometimes I'm looking for community. I'm looking for inspiration. I want to be around other people. So the value of a network like that space, or just co-working spaces in general, as you can get exactly what you're looking for typically, and not like a one size fits all solution like your home or HQ.

00;07;31;14 - 00;08;17;11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's always been helpful when I'm traveling because the hotel room is not always conducive to getting work done. Between, you know, housekeeping banging on the door and, bad Wi-Fi and, you know, whatever. Yeah. So that's when I've done it. As we move more and more to hybrid work and companies are shrinking their physical footprint and doing stuff, and how if I'm the CEO of a company, you know, the notion of paying for a third space, if I'm already paying for an office, might be a bit of a tough sell.

00;08;17;11 - 00;08;19;19
Wayne Turmel
What would you tell that CEO?

00;08;19;22 - 00;08;48;05
Sam Rosen
Yeah. So I think the paradigm of office is changing in a fundamental way. Right. Like one office for everybody to solve everybody's problems. I think is the old paradigm. And I think what we found there was those offices were generally pretty inefficient, generally underutilized and expensive to maintain. I am at the office today. Like, I love them, like I believe in the whole business of selling office.

00;08;48;05 - 00;09;15;29
Sam Rosen
Right. So I think what we're seeing and the thesis that I really have in this space is this notion of office as an ecosystem. And we talked to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of companies that are thinking about this. Every company is different, different employees, different geographies, different requirements. But I think the prevailing trend that I like I've seen is, companies are, changing as leasing decisions are coming up.

00;09;15;29 - 00;09;39;19
Sam Rosen
Right? They're thinking about, okay, I have all this space. Are people coming to the office? How utilized is it? And they're not abandoning the office full sale. They're typically taking less space. They're reducing their their size of their leased or owned real estate, and they're making it more efficient. They're saying, what is the purpose of this space? This is person of the space together to sell, to do R&D.

00;09;39;22 - 00;10;00;17
Sam Rosen
And let's have fewer square feet, but let's make them better. So people want to use them. And then not mandate that people are there all the time, every day. And instead of saying you have, you can work from office or you can work from home. We're seeing companies become more inclusive and saying, we will meet you where you are, what do you need?

00;10;00;19 - 00;10;18;17
Sam Rosen
And let me help support you with what you need. The value of a a platform like this fast and not to get salesy here is it's on demand pay as you go. So what companies are doing is they're not saying here's another office we're paying for near your house. They're saying work from where you need to get work done.

00;10;18;17 - 00;10;39;06
Sam Rosen
And I've given you a $500 budget that if you want to use it, you can use any of these spaces and we'll pay for it. And then it gives companies the ability to learn like, well, what are my employees really? What? How are they really using space? And how should this, help me address my my work space and strategy in the future?

00;10;39;08 - 00;10;59;06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, and there are times when you need to have a meeting, but, you know, you don't have a space. I mean, to pay 100, 150 bucks for a meeting room for an hour that everybody can go to and then leave, is probably not a bad investment.

00;10;59;09 - 00;11;01;00
Sam Rosen
And I'd argue.

00;11;01;00 - 00;11;02;10
Wayne Turmel
It's in tonight's meetings.

00;11;02;13 - 00;11;26;14
Sam Rosen
A lot less expensive to have meeting rooms when you need them than a meeting room in your, you know, building that's empty, 90% of that 80% of the time or whatever it might be. So I think people do find that like, flexible solutions tend to be a lot more cost effective than owning heating, maintaining space. That's that's not used.

00;11;26;14 - 00;11;27;00
Sam Rosen
Well.

00;11;27;03 - 00;11;47;26
Wayne Turmel
What are some of the for people that have never, you know, taken advantage of these kinds of situations before? What are some of the ways people use them? Like why would somebody use a space when, you know, they have a home office?

00;11;47;28 - 00;12;19;16
Sam Rosen
So I mean, post through Covid like some of the, the big trends we've seen. So sales teams, right. Like bigger companies that have sales offices. So have like tens or hundreds of sales offices that were never that utilized, we're finding them divesting themselves from those spaces and saying, look, instead of having this office that's kind of far away from where you actually live, we're getting rid of it, but we're going to give you access to desks and meeting rooms and offices as you need.

00;12;19;19 - 00;12;54;25
Sam Rosen
So we see a lot of meetings, right? Like sales meetings, regional meetings, quarterly meetings, client meetings where people are leveraging the the network on demand for that. And I think another big pieces, I think Covid helped companies realize that being co-located to where the office and HQ is isn't as necessary as they thought. So they might have had employees that moved away from Chicago or whatever city are in and now live in Denver or Vegas or wherever it might be, and want to offer something to them rather than saying sayonara, right.

00;12;54;25 - 00;13;15;16
Sam Rosen
Or they're looking for talent and they're instead of just casting a net that's around their geography, they're saying, let's just find great people irrespective of where they live, and then let's support them with what they need. And that's where we see a lot of use with, I think these flexible workspaces and networks like ours.

00;13;15;19 - 00;13;25;20
Wayne Turmel
As CEO, what's the you know, where are your CEO hat for the moment and rejoined the patriarchy.

00;13;25;20 - 00;13;29;13
Sam Rosen
And I'm in,

00;13;29;16 - 00;13;46;01
Wayne Turmel
What is the discussion that you would have with your fellow fellow CEOs? What are the 2 or 3 things that they really need to think about in terms of their offices, in terms of flexible spaces like desk space?

00;13;46;04 - 00;14;12;09
Sam Rosen
Yeah. I mean, I think like the, you know, there is a huge cost savings advantage to leveraging networks like this and taking less fixed real estate and being more flexible. I think like that's a big piece. I think the other advantages to, to remote work is, is right, is talent, both acquiring new talent but also retaining great talent.

00;14;12;09 - 00;14;37;22
Sam Rosen
So like and this is, I think a, you know, that's what these tools are really great at. The last thing I'd say is, you know, some of the pushback you get, in selling what, what we sell and talking to folks is they believe the best work gets done in the office. They believe in, like, the watercooler. And getting people around the table is like, how great work is done.

00;14;37;24 - 00;15;10;11
Sam Rosen
And I I'm very much an advocate of in-person work and getting people together. I think that is work. Great work gets done, but I don't think it gets done there all the time. And I think that, like companies that have been really successful at remote work, like Nvidia, right, like the fastest growing American company right now, like Atlassian, I mean, there's a million really strong examples of fully remote company are very hybrid companies.

00;15;10;13 - 00;15;47;19
Sam Rosen
It's not about workspace, it's about culture. And it's about the having the right tools and the right processes in place as an organization, to like, effectively communicate. And I think those companies are really great because they have the best co-working spaces or the best real estate strategy. It's that they've recognized what's happening in our labor markets and with like the future of the world and where things are trending and they're building the right tools, the right culture, the right processes in-house to get the best result.

00;15;47;19 - 00;15;54;18
Sam Rosen
And that's why those companies are thriving, not because of like, the the watercooler.

00;15;54;20 - 00;16;09;12
Wayne Turmel
I'm going to leave you with one question, and this is just forget the fact that this is what you do for a living as a CEO. When do you decide an in-person meeting is necessary and when do you not?

00;16;09;15 - 00;16;36;12
Sam Rosen
It's interesting because I think of it more as asynchronous meetings like asynchronous work and synchronous work, right? What work does it need to be a meeting at all? And it's actually better if it's a host or it's, it's a, you know, like in the tools and then, okay, which meetings should be synchronous. Right. And I think okay, out of those meetings, which ones?

00;16;36;14 - 00;17;19;12
Sam Rosen
Should be in person. And I think when there's, a huge amount of work to get through, like it's a big meaty problem. I think that's when getting together really, really helps. And I think culturally, like when you feel like the culture you're building is struggling, like the, the and good pep or kind of shot in the arm is let's get people together and remember, like we're humans, like we're not just these little people in these boxes and like, it's the little things outside of just the work of just like learning about your people you work with, building empathy around them.

00;17;19;12 - 00;17;30;19
Sam Rosen
So I think, like, that's the kind of the framework that I like to use is like, does this have to be a meeting at all? And if it's a meeting, are we going to get a lot more squeezed by by doing it in person?

00;17;30;22 - 00;17;55;15
Wayne Turmel
Digging it. Thank you much. Sam Rosen desk pass. We will have links to salmon desk pass and all of that good stuff in our, show notes. I am going to remove Sam from the meeting for just a moment while I talk to you. And I remind you that if you enjoyed the show, if you continue to enjoy the show, please like and subscribe.

00;17;55;15 - 00;18;20;02
Wayne Turmel
You know how all this social media podcasting stuff works. I would urge you to check out, Kevin in my new book, The Long Distance Leader. And I know you're saying Wayne, the long distance leader, has been out for six years. Actually, this is a new, updated edition. It is the long distance leader. Revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid leadership.

00;18;20;02 - 00;18;53;12
Wayne Turmel
We urge you to check that out. And you can, of course, get show notes, transcripts, past episodes, all that good stuff. Check out long distance work life.com. If you have ideas for shows, if you have, questions, comments, complaints, vicious personal attacks, you can find Marissa Renee on LinkedIn or our email, which is here on the screen below my face.

00;18;53;12 - 00;19;08;26
Wayne Turmel
For those of you enduring that, that's it. It's, been another episode. Thank you so much for joining us on the long distance work life. Marissa will be back next week, and don't let the weasels get you down.

00;19;08;28 - 00;19;21;21
Unknown
Hey.

00;19;21;23 - 00;19;22;20
Unknown
You know.


Featured Guest

Name: Sam Rosen

Bio: Sam Rosen is the co-founder and CEO of Deskpass, an online marketplace connecting teams and individuals to thousands of coworking spaces and conference rooms across the country. A creative problem solver, Sam's passion for coworking began with co-founding The Coop, Chicago’s first coworking space, and he has since become a recognized entrepreneur and voice in the design community. Prior to Deskpass, he co-founded The Post Family art collaborative and One Design Company, a digital branding agency that blends research, communication, and design for top brands.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Sam Rosen and Deskpass
01:03 Sam’s Background in Co-Working and Design
02:05 The Evolution of Office Spaces and Remote Work
03:19 Design vs. Real Estate: What’s the Difference?
04:51 Advantages of Co-Working Spaces
07:09 How to Use Deskpass for Remote Work Travel
08:17 Making Flexible Workspaces Work for Your Company
10:00 Real-Life Examples of Deskpass in Action
13:15 Keeping Culture Alive in Remote Teams
17:19 Deciding When to Meet In Person
19:08 Conclusion and Resources

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Mastering Hybrid Coaching: Avoiding Proximity Bias in Remote Teams
Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Mastering Hybrid Coaching: Avoiding Proximity Bias in Remote Teams

Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry tackle the challenge of proximity bias and its impact on coaching in remote and hybrid teams. Proximity bias, where leaders give preferential treatment to those physically closer, can skew coaching opportunities and development. Wayne and Marisa discuss how to overcome this bias and ensure remote team members receive equal attention and guidance. You’ll also learn practical tips on how to leverage technology, such as Zoom, Slack, and Teams, to create more effective and meaningful coaching experiences.

Key Takeaways

  • Defining Proximity Bias: What it is and why it matters, not just for leaders but also for peers and teams.
  • Coaching Differences: How coaching remote employees differs from in-person coaching and why proximity plays a significant role.
  • The Importance of Regular Feedback: How coaching should be proactive, consistent, and more formal in remote settings to avoid isolation.
  • Leveraging Technology: Tips on using tools like Zoom and Slack to enrich one-on-one coaching experiences and maintain engagement.
  • Avoiding Bias in Hybrid Teams: Strategies to ensure that in-office employees don’t get favored over their remote counterparts during coaching sessions.
  • The Emotional Impact: How not receiving feedback or coaching can be demotivating for remote employees, and what leaders can do to avoid this.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;27 - 00;00;08;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to.

00;00;08;18 - 00;00;20;00
Marisa Eikenberry
The Long-Distance worksite, where we help you live, work, and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Russ, I can be a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Trimble. Hi, Lynn.

00;00;20;03 - 00;00;22;05
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marissa. How are you?

00;00;22;11 - 00;00;23;28
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00;00;24;01 - 00;00;27;01
Wayne Turmel
I'm fine. Even though we're nowhere near each other.

00;00;27;03 - 00;00;57;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Right, right. You in Vegas and me in Indianapolis said we're going to kind of talk about that today, as we do every time on our remote show. But today, specifically, we're talking about coaching and differences between coaching in-person and remote and how to try to make those similar and avoiding proximity bias. So one of the first things that I do want to start with, and we've talked about this a lot on the show, but for people who have never listened to an episode of ours before, maybe we should define what is proximity bias.

00;00;57;08 - 00;01;35;21
Wayne Turmel
Proximity bias as it relates to leaders. Okay, is and I'm looking at this very fancy I generated definition and okay, like all I generated definitions I want to go. That's not entirely it. It says and I quote proximity bias is a cognitive bias that occurs when people have positions of power, favor employees who are physically closer to them, and that includes things like promotions and coaching opportunities and an unintentional exclusion for those who aren't there, and all of that good stuff.

00;01;35;21 - 00;02;02;03
Wayne Turmel
The problem with this definition, of course, is that it happens not just in leadership, it happens in life, and it happens among peers. On teams. So when we're talking proximity bias, yes, in this case, because we're going to be discussing coaching its leaders, but it's also peers and colleagues and stuff like that.

00;02;02;06 - 00;02;11;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. So how does proximity bias specifically like affect the coaching experiences of remote employees as opposed to ones in person?

00;02;11;08 - 00;02;41;12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, well, proximity bias affects coaching in some obvious ways, right? An obvious way is if I'm in the office and I see somebody doing something incorrectly or wrong or even really well, and I want to give them some coaching and some feedback on that, my brain says, I see this happening and I should respond, the problem, of course, with remote workers is you often don't see things happening in real time.

00;02;41;19 - 00;03;11;24
Wayne Turmel
You see them long after the fact, and they generally need to be pretty dramatic in order for your brain to go, you know, I should pick up the phone. I should type them a message. I should make a point of mentioning this. So coaching happens much more spontaneously, much more frequently, and often better in person than it does remotely.

00;03;11;24 - 00;03;49;09
Wayne Turmel
And the ultimate impact of that is more than you would think. Because when you are remote and you perceive that other people are getting coaching and attention that you are not getting, it can be rather disheartening. And the. Well, of course, but when you're the one who is guilty of the bias, you often don't see that. For example, you know, out of sight, out of mind to a lot of leaders is, you know, unless there's a problem, I'm just going to let Marissa do her thing.

00;03;49;11 - 00;03;51;29
Marisa Eikenberry
And for some reason, you're okay with that.

00;03;52;01 - 00;04;27;00
Wayne Turmel
For some people, they're okay with that. But even people who are really good at their jobs and prefer to be left alone to do them need a little love. They need some attention. They need positive reinforcement and and occasionally correction. Because a lot of us who work remotely and we've talked before about the Wiley Coyote moments, where, you know, it's like the Roadrunner cartoons where you run, run, run, run, run and you're way off the cliff before you realize that you're off the cliff.

00;04;27;02 - 00;04;31;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. But if you would have had, you know, weekly or biweekly meetings, you may have if.

00;04;31;19 - 00;04;59;23
Wayne Turmel
You were getting regular feedback, which is ultimately what all of this comes down to is feedback loops, right? And proximity bias tends to have really strong feedback loops with the people with whom you are physically proximate and weaker, and less frequent feedback loops with people that you do not interact with in a rich way nearly as often.

00;04;59;25 - 00;05;14;10
Marisa Eikenberry
So what are some signs that a manager might be showing proximity bias during one on one? So if they are, you know, actually meeting. But how might those one on ones differ a little bit if they're showing proximity bias?

00;05;14;12 - 00;05;48;06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think there are a bunch of ways. And I'll just tell you because everything ultimately is about me. It used to make me crazy with managers who, if they were in the office, would call people in. They'd have a cup of coffee, they'd sit across the desk, they do their thing. But because I was usually on the other end of the country or traveling or they were traveling, I would get my coaching conversations on a staticky cell phone in a busy airport lobby.

00;05;48;08 - 00;05;50;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, it was an afterthought.

00;05;50;12 - 00;06;22;20
Wayne Turmel
It was, well, we got to do this. It's schedule. Let's do it. And so there wasn't time to connect. There wasn't the visual component where you could see that somebody was stressed or not. You basically because you're trying to drown out the distractions around you run from a checklist. And so a lot of those one on ones were not coaching opportunities so much as they were check ins on tasks.

00;06;22;22 - 00;06;23;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;06;23;06 - 00;06;25;06
Wayne Turmel
Which is important.

00;06;25;09 - 00;06;26;01
Marisa Eikenberry
But it's not the whole.

00;06;26;07 - 00;06;52;20
Wayne Turmel
Coaching. Coaching is more than that. Coaching is not just having a one on one coaching conversation or conversation. Coaching is a very specific thing. It involves feedback. It involves both performance and development. So it's not just this is what you're doing, but what would you like to be doing right? What would you like to be doing better? How can I help you do that?

00;06;52;22 - 00;07;25;28
Wayne Turmel
Is true coaching. It's not just feedback right. So and that's one that's a very obvious one. I think the other thing is that coaching remotely by definition is going to be more formal and needs to be planned, which means there are big coaching moments. Okay. But there's not a lot of that spontaneous in the hallway giving somebody a thumbs up when you hear them on the phone, doing a great job with a customer.

00;07;26;00 - 00;07;45;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. That's fair. So, you know, you were talking a second ago about your old coaching conversations where, you know, staticky cell phones and things like that. And obviously we now have tools like Zoom and Slack huddles and Microsoft Teams that give that visual and help make things a little bit easier, even if it isn't quite the same way.

00;07;45;10 - 00;07;53;09
Marisa Eikenberry
So how can technology help to kind of create a level playing field during one on ones between remote and in-office employees?

00;07;53;11 - 00;08;25;17
Wayne Turmel
Sure. Well, we have talked a lot on this show about the importance of richness and scope and understanding when you use which right. It's fair to say that coaching should be an extremely rich experience. It doesn't mean you can't send an ad a girl over over slack or something like that. But in general, coaching, requires a little bit more attention.

00;08;25;20 - 00;09;13;08
Wayne Turmel
And, and so that's part of it. So so the richer technologies are probably helpful. The other thing and not enough coaches do this, I think, is when you're on teams or whatever you're on, is the ability to share data so that you are not just staring at each other's faces, but you're actually looking at numbers and saying, you know, if I say you're not hitting your numbers or you were a little off this month, that's very different than looking at a spreadsheet that shows exactly how much you were off relative to the month before or the last couple of months, and it makes it more real when it's just face to face.

00;09;13;15 - 00;09;17;10
Wayne Turmel
It's very easy for coaching to become emotional.

00;09;17;14 - 00;09;17;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;09;18;00 - 00;09;33;19
Wayne Turmel
And emotional in good ways, but also emotional in ways of becoming defensive or, you know, putting on a front or whatever. And and that's for both the coach and the coach.

00;09;33;21 - 00;09;35;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Coach, of course.

00;09;35;05 - 00;09;37;10
Wayne Turmel
The person being coached. Okay.

00;09;37;12 - 00;09;48;01
Marisa Eikenberry
With that. You know, are there some things that managers can be doing, like to, enhance that a little bit during one on ones.

00;09;48;03 - 00;10;20;00
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I'm not going to make this whole thing a shameless plug for the new book, the new old book, but in the Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership, which is the updated version. One of the things that isn't updated a whole lot is the section on coaching, because it's the same as it's been. It's funny, one of the critiques we got of the book is, well, there's all this stuff about coaching, but it's not specific to remote and hybrid.

00;10;20;02 - 00;10;36;25
Wayne Turmel
And that is correct, because one of the things that we don't do well enough, even in person, is coaching. And there's no evidence that says we're going to do it better without the visual and approximation cues. And those sorts of things.

00;10;36;27 - 00;10;37;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;10;37;22 - 00;11;10;23
Wayne Turmel
But there are some things that need to happen. And a big one is when you are coaching, you need to check your beliefs because it's very easy to. And this is part of proximity bias. If you see people busily working, you assume that they're always busily working. And that tells you something about that person, right? If you feel positive towards them, you are inclined to cut them slack when something goes wrong because you see them working.

00;11;10;25 - 00;11;24;23
Wayne Turmel
When you are dealing with somebody who is surrounded by white space and you don't see everything that's going on around them. While we want to assume positive intent.

00;11;24;27 - 00;11;25;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;11;25;15 - 00;11;56;15
Wayne Turmel
We don't always. Because if I've worked with Morris a long enough, there is a part of me that goes, you know what she's like. And and that colors how we approach our coaching. And over time, if we don't check those beliefs, if we don't stop and ask ourselves if the information we're getting or the impression we're getting is accurate, we start to act on those beliefs by default.

00;11;56;17 - 00;12;17;28
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, we've talked about this in previous episodes too, but because, you know, you can't see somebody, maybe their performance is down this month. And you know, you notice that. So you just assume, oh, they're lazy. But if you had been seeing them you would notice like they're stressed out, they're overworked, they're burned out. They've got something going on at home that's affecting stuff.

00;12;17;28 - 00;12;22;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And you have no idea if you're not checking in like that.

00;12;22;06 - 00;12;49;18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And so, you know, a coaching conversation actually has several parts. And one of the most important, you just said it and we kind of glossed over that part, okay. Is at the beginning of the conversation when we say, how are you? We made the correct response with the correct response is, oh, I am fine. Let us please get to this meeting that I don't really want to have.

00;12;49;18 - 00;12;51;02
Wayne Turmel
But you have called.

00;12;51;05 - 00;12;51;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;12;51;23 - 00;12;52;20
Wayne Turmel
Right.

00;12;52;22 - 00;12;54;00
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;12;54;02 - 00;13;22;11
Wayne Turmel
And, and and so and I'm sure I've said this before because I'm mildly obsessed with it. How are you? Is both a greeting and a request for information. Right. And a good coaching conversation starts with the request for information. Yes. The second thing that the coaching conversation does, and hopefully over time, the person understands that that is a legit request for information, right?

00;13;22;11 - 00;13;29;14
Wayne Turmel
When I say to you, how are you doing? You are generally pretty forthcoming with me about how are you doing?

00;13;29;17 - 00;13;34;01
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, we have that trust established, right? Like, I just I don't have to trust anybody.

00;13;34;03 - 00;14;05;19
Wayne Turmel
Right. But we have that trust established. I have demonstrated in the past that I am actually willing to listen. I give a hoot. And and so, I mean, we started we start every conversation with how's it going? How you doing? Is, you know, what's going on in your world. But the other thing that a good coaching conversation does, this is different than the sports model coaching that we often think of, where the coach tells you stuff right.

00;14;05;21 - 00;14;06;22
Marisa Eikenberry


00;14;06;24 - 00;14;32;28
Wayne Turmel
Nobody sees Phil Jackson. Ask Michael Jordan what's going on out there. You see Phil talking to Jordan right. You have these guys that was maybe the oldest white guy reference I could have made there. But but a good coaching conversation lets the other person speak first. Yeah right. What's going on. What would you like to talk about?

00;14;33;03 - 00;14;57;12
Wayne Turmel
And the reason is very simple. I can come in saying I need to give Billy Bob feedback on this thing that isn't work, and that's fine, right? Because we need to get his performance up. So I'm going to coach him. But as you alluded to earlier, let's find out what's going on with Billy Bob. And one of the really important things is does Billy Bob know there's a problem?

00;14;57;15 - 00;15;27;01
Wayne Turmel
That's right. If I say, tell me about your numbers last week, oh, it's no big deal, blah, blah, blah. If I say, tell me about your numbers last month. And Billy Bob goes, oh, God, you wouldn't believe it. It's such a okay. Until he events, he is not going to be able to hear my feedback. If I think that he's in denial, I'm going to give him different feedback than I would if he is guilt ridden and knows that there is a problem, right?

00;15;27;01 - 00;15;57;02
Wayne Turmel
Because he is guilt ridden and knows that there is a problem, he probably wants to get better. And I am going to approach that coaching conversation different than I will. If he doesn't think there's a problem at all. Well, it's really important for me to know where the coached person is psychologically, mentally in terms of the problem, because that's going to radically dictate how we have that conversation.

00;15;57;04 - 00;16;16;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, it's interesting that you're saying this too, because it's one of those things that like, I, I mean, I've been working for the Kevin like Burger for ten years, right? And I did not realize that almost every conversation I've had with any manager that I've had has been like that. The one on one started off with, okay, I have some things for you, but let's start with you first.

00;16;16;29 - 00;16;35;06
Marisa Eikenberry
What do you have for me? And then and sometimes it's the same stuff that's on their list. But it was just, you know, I mean, I have a biweekly meeting with, you know, my manager now, and it's always what's on your list first. And it didn't occur to me until now that it's like, oh, yeah, well, like that let me lead the conversation first for a little bit.

00;16;35;08 - 00;17;02;07
Wayne Turmel
Well, you know, we both have lists, right? Right. The manager here has a Kevin has a waiting list. Right. These are the things I need to talk to Wayne about. And Wayne has a Kevin list. And it is an actual physical running list that I keep. And if what is on the top of Kevin's list is not what's on the top of mine, I'm going to be responsive to what Kevin's telling me.

00;17;02;07 - 00;17;15;18
Wayne Turmel
But in the back of my head I'm going, yeah, but what I really want to talk about is right, right, right. Or what I really think is important is this. And I may not be fully in the game.

00;17;15;20 - 00;17;18;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, it may be something that's not on Kevin's radar.

00;17;18;29 - 00;17;49;04
Wayne Turmel
Right. So here we are running radically out of time. And most of what we have talked about is coaching, because coaching is coaching. And the nuances of doing it remotely are important. There not the biggest things in the world, but they matter. The only thing before we wrap up is that in hybrid hybrid coaching, if you've got people couple days in the week, blah blah blah, choose when to do it in person.

00;17;49;04 - 00;18;05;27
Wayne Turmel
And coaching in person is almost always more valuable than coaching at a distance. So if you can schedule your time and arrange your schedules so that if you are in the office together, that's when that stuff happens.

00;18;05;29 - 00;18;25;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Have it be as rich as possible. Of course. So Wayne, thank you so much for this. And I really hope that our listeners got a lot out of this. But before we go, the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is now available, and this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

00;18;25;27 - 00;18;56;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Kevin and Wayne show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale, and order your copy now! At long distance work life.com/l d l and strengthen your remote leadership skills today. And thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources, make sure to visit Long Distance Work life.com and if you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes.

00;18;56;17 - 00;19;12;04
Marisa Eikenberry
And while you're there, make sure to give us a rating and review your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. And feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes. Let us know you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00;19;12;06 - 00;19;17;23
Marisa Eikenberry
We would love to hear from you. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let his weasels get you down.

00;19;17;25 - 00;19;23;05
Marisa Eikenberry
Hey.

00;19;23;07 - 00;19;31;26
Marisa Eikenberry
There.

00;19;31;29 - 00;19;32;07
Marisa Eikenberry
You.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro
00:27 What is Proximity Bias?
01:35 How Proximity Bias Affects Coaching
03:11 Differences Between In-Person and Remote Coaching
05:14 Signs of Proximity Bias in One-on-Ones
07:45 Using Technology to Enhance Remote Coaching
09:48 Creating a Level Playing Field with Remote Tools
10:48 Coaching Conversations: Feedback and Emotional Dynamics
12:22 The Importance of Trust in Coaching
14:05 How to Start a Good Coaching Conversation
17:49 Final Thoughts on Hybrid Coaching
18:25 Long-Distance Leader Book Promotion
18:56 Outro

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Guests, Technology

Why Virtual Reality Could Be the Key to Remote Team Engagement with Dan O’Connell

Wayne Turmel sits down with Dan O'Connell, co-founder of BrandLab360, to explore the innovative world of virtual workplaces and how they are reshaping remote work. Dan shares insights into their platform, Virtual HQ, and how it allows teams to collaborate in immersive, 3D environments without the need for VR headsets. They discuss the evolution of remote work tools, the advantages of avatar-based interactions, and the gamification of work to keep employees engaged. Wayne and Dan also dive into the psychological benefits of these virtual spaces and how they compare to traditional video calls like Zoom and Teams.

Key Takeaways

  • How BrandLab360 evolved from fashion showrooms to virtual workspaces.
  • The unique features of Virtual HQ and why it stands out from other remote tools.
  • The psychological and social advantages of using avatars in remote meetings.
  • Why companies should consider gamification in remote work environments.
  • The potential future of hybrid work in the metaverse.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction to Dan O'Connell and Virtual HQ
2:00 How Virtual HQ is Different from Zoom and Teams
4:45 The Importance of Human Relationships in Virtual Spaces
7:30 Gamification and Fun in Remote Work
10:30 Why Avatar-Based Meetings are More Engaging
14:00 Overcoming Tech Barriers for Virtual Workspaces
17:00 Features to Look for in a Virtual Office Platform
20:00 Closing Thoughts and Where to Learn More

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work

Is Your Hybrid Work Strategy a Mule or a Platypus?

Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry dive into the hybrid work debate, comparing two very unlikely animals: mules and platypuses. Wayne introduces his humorous yet insightful analogy, explaining how a “mule” model of hybrid work is intentional and strategic, while a “platypus” model is a chaotic, unplanned combination of different parts.

They discuss the challenges many organizations face when trying to make hybrid work “work” and provide practical advice on moving from a disjointed model to one that serves both teams and the business. With the rapid evolution of remote and hybrid environments, the question becomes: is your team a well-planned mule or a hodgepodge platypus?

Key Takeaways

  • What hybrid work really means and why most companies are just coping rather than strategizing.
  • The difference between a mule and platypus approach in hybrid work.
  • How strategic hybrid teams balance not only where but also when work happens.
  • Practical steps to move from a platypus hybrid model to a mule-like, intentional approach.
  • The importance of understanding both asynchronous and synchronous work in a hybrid setting.

View Full Transcript

00;00;07;26 - 00;00;08;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to the.

00;00;08;18 - 00;00;19;13
Marisa Eikenberry
Long distance work life. We help you live, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marissa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker, and joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Winter Bell. Hi, Lynn.

00;00;19;16 - 00;00;21;23
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marissa. How are you?

00;00;21;25 - 00;00;23;21
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00;00;23;23 - 00;00;32;17
Wayne Turmel
I am fine. For the uninitiated, we are recording this on the Friday before a long weekend and things may get silly. Is.

00;00;32;20 - 00;01;03;02
Marisa Eikenberry
We're ready to go. But anyway, we're also talking about something silly, so that that helps. But lately, in articles and stuff, when you've been talking about hybrid in the sense of do you want a mule or a platypus? And which, first of all, I think it's hilarious. But why don't we start off with can you explain how that analogy applies to remote models or hybrid?

00;01;03;02 - 00;01;37;13
Wayne Turmel
Well, there are there are grown people basically saying, I don't want a mule or a platypus. What are you talking about? So here is what is I have been spending a lot of time thinking, writing, talk to customers about hybrid work, and I realized that most of what we call hybrid work isn't okay. at best, what most teams are doing, most organizations are doing is a hostage negotiation.

00;01;37;15 - 00;01;38;22
Marisa Eikenberry
Sounds about right.

00;01;38;24 - 00;02;01;07
Wayne Turmel
How much can we make them come into the office before they quit? And how much can we whine and complain about not going into the office before they fire us and we settle on? Okay, come in three days a week. And that's kind of it. And that works kind of, sort of that doesn't make anybody ecstatic, but it gets stuff done.

00;02;01;07 - 00;02;29;07
Wayne Turmel
It's fine. But the problem is that it is not a strategy. It is a coping mechanism. And as a result, you get some weird problems with it. I go into the office and I can't get anything done because people are stopping by my desk and they want to have meetings I hadn't planned for, and there's somebody's birthdays, or there's cake in the break room, and I can't get anything done.

00;02;29;07 - 00;02;45;03
Wayne Turmel
But when I work from home, where I used to be able to get stuff done, now I'm on zoom meetings from morning till night, and that's one of the problems when you've kind of negotiated one problem but haven't really thought about the others.

00;02;45;06 - 00;02;46;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;02;46;06 - 00;03;22;00
Wayne Turmel
So the question leaving aside mules and platypuses is do you want to have a strategically planned hybrid work system, or do you just want to have this kind of ad hoc thing? Which got me thinking about animals? I'm getting to the point. I swear. I know it got me thinking about animals. What is a hybrid? In biological terms, a hybrid is the offspring of two different animals or biological entities.

00;03;22;00 - 00;03;51;16
Wayne Turmel
You can have hybrid axes, but in this case two different animals, which creates a third animal which is a unique beast. So the classic example is a mule. Yes, it's part horse and part donkey. But if you've ever encountered mules, you know that they are their own distinct thing and another mule is going to be more like a mule than it is its parent.

00;03;51;18 - 00;03;52;17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;03;52;19 - 00;04;23;03
Wayne Turmel
So I started thinking about other animals that are kind of a mash up, and the one that struck me a because it's hysterical, and B because it's a really good example is the platypus, which, as you and I have discussed, Marissa is essentially God had spare parts lying around and created this thing with a duckbill and a beaver tail and poisonous toenails on its back feet, and because why not?

00;04;23;10 - 00;05;07;13
Wayne Turmel
And that's the whole point, is, from an evolutionary standpoint, all of those things developed for a good reason. But evolution is slow. And as the environment changes around it. The corpus has a lot of stuff that just doesn't make any sense anymore. And if the environment is changing very quickly so that it is rapidly becoming endangered and there are fewer places on the planet, it's geographic, where you find them geographically is shrinking and shrinking and shrinking, and it's just kind of like, I know there's a reason it evolved.

00;05;07;13 - 00;05;36;22
Wayne Turmel
Poisonous toenails, but probably every time they introduce a new, predator into the environment, they know that you have poisonous toenails. And so they stay away from that. Right. And so applied. And plus, while it continues to exist, it's kind of an evolutionary dead end, and it can't suddenly change direction and become something else.

00;05;36;25 - 00;05;38;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. That makes sense.

00;05;38;14 - 00;06;07;09
Wayne Turmel
So a mule is carefully chosen for very specific things. It's replicable and it will continue to be useful and exist for a very long time. A platypus has been left to its own devices. And, you know, if you live in the right part of Tasmania and and you don't bother them too much, they're fine. But they're not expanding, they're not growing, they're not becoming more plentiful.

00;06;07;12 - 00;06;20;03
Wayne Turmel
Right. Because they've just kind of been allowed to evolve. And the way that they've evolved has responded slowly to changes in their environment. But there's no plan to it.

00;06;20;06 - 00;06;31;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? So okay, so if mule is considered the true hybrid, what are some elements of successful hybrid work models that you're highlighting in this?

00;06;31;21 - 00;06;41;12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, the big thing about hybrid work is most people think work. Hybrid work is what work gets done. Where.

00;06;41;14 - 00;06;42;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;06;42;21 - 00;07;23;04
Wayne Turmel
And a hybrid a truly hybrid work experience is, yes, what work gets done where, but also when it introduces the concept of time, the idea of there are times when asynchronous work is preferable and is really good, and there are times when perhaps we need to be together. So, a platypus team, for example, might say, yeah, we're in the office three days a week, and the days when you're not, we want you logged in the same time as the people in the office.

00;07;23;04 - 00;07;36;12
Wayne Turmel
And when you logged out, when they're gone. Right. So that essentially, yes, you are free to work wherever you want, but by golly, you better be available when Nancy in accounting wants you.

00;07;36;14 - 00;07;44;17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And it's different if you're, you know, customer support or something like that, where those hours are really important. But, you know, if you're a web developer, does it really matter?

00;07;44;17 - 00;07;52;07
Wayne Turmel
Well, well. And if in my case, I live three time zones away from you and Kevin.

00;07;52;10 - 00;07;53;14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;07;53;17 - 00;08;14;09
Wayne Turmel
Right now I'm an early bird. So fortunately my body clock in my brain starts very early in the morning. So I kind of sort of keep East Coast hours, but I don't have to. Right. There are certain number of hours in a day where we want overlap.

00;08;14;12 - 00;08;17;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. When you and I talk about available.

00;08;17;21 - 00;08;49;09
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. When you like I talk about stuff when we have team meetings there is time that we need to overlap. But generally speaking Kevin doesn't track my time. I'm getting stuff done. You're getting stuff done. It's all cool. you know, again on a platypus team. Great. I have to come into the office three days a week, so I fight traffic and I show up in a bad mood, and I throw my coat over my chair, and I try to concentrate, and people are bugging me.

00;08;49;09 - 00;08;52;12
Wayne Turmel
And then at the end of the day, I pick up my coat and I leave.

00;08;52;15 - 00;08;53;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;08;53;05 - 00;09;24;24
Wayne Turmel
Well, that kind of work maybe doesn't need to be done amongst all those other people. And when other people are asking for your time, right. And hybrid teams that are really effective maximize the what, where and when. So when they are in the office together that's when the collaboration, the team building, the social niceties occur and people aren't worried about checking stuff off their list.

00;09;24;27 - 00;09;30;29
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah. They plan the day around being in the office essentially.

00;09;31;01 - 00;09;45;17
Wayne Turmel
Absolutely, absolutely. And conversely, if I'm in the office three days a week, I do not expect to be on zoom calls from morning till night when I'm working away from the office, because a lot of that should have happened when we were together.

00;09;45;20 - 00;09;46;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;09;46;28 - 00;10;08;00
Wayne Turmel
The idea of meetings, right. When do we hold meetings? Well, maybe we hold meetings when people are there as opposed to not right. so hybrid teams take this into account and even meetings are different. Let me give you an example. On a good mule team. And I don't mean mule team like calling the.

00;10;08;02 - 00;10;09;04
Marisa Eikenberry
Dope mules.

00;10;09;06 - 00;10;42;13
Wayne Turmel
On a mule type team. You are going to have a meeting to brainstorm something. Well, there's an asynchronous component up front. Let's put all the ideas in teams before we get there, and we, as good teammates, will have read it and thought about it and actually be prepared to discuss it when the meeting starts so that the meeting is actually spent doing valuable stuff, sorting through ideas, defending, studying, figuring it out.

00;10;42;18 - 00;10;55;10
Wayne Turmel
At the end of the meeting, we're pretty sure we have a choice, and we've all left meetings and been halfway down the hall and go, oh man, you know what I should have said? Or you know what, I didn't ask. Oh my God, we didn't think about that.

00;10;55;13 - 00;10;55;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;10;55;28 - 00;11;15;27
Wayne Turmel
Well, on an asynchronous team, you go back and say, hey, I know we thought about this. Here's what we need to think about for our next meeting. Has anybody got an answer for this? You can talk me off the ledge because I think this is kind of important. and they maximize what work gets done when.

00;11;15;29 - 00;11;16;23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. That makes sense.

00;11;16;29 - 00;11;47;11
Wayne Turmel
And it's conscious. It's intentional. Now, let's be fair. It's a lot easier to do this with a startup or a team or a project that is just coming to fruition than it is to fix the boat when it's in the water, right? And it doesn't mean it can't be done, of course. But the big thing, the whole point of metaphor of the mules and the platypuses is, are you intentional?

00;11;47;17 - 00;11;58;05
Wayne Turmel
Do you know what you want that team to accomplish? I'm doing research for a new novel right now, so I'm fascinated with mules. That's how this whole thing started.

00;11;58;08 - 00;11;59;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;11;59;27 - 00;12;13;21
Wayne Turmel
And what I found is that mules can carry far more weight than horses. they consume less water than camels on long rides.

00;12;13;24 - 00;12;14;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;12;14;12 - 00;12;40;10
Wayne Turmel
And their feet are designed for rough terrain, right? Because their feet are much more like donkey feet than, which means for certain jobs, i.e. anything involving the desert mules are way more helpful than horses. Horses are prettier and more expensive, and all of that and donkeys are smaller, and there's only so much you can do with them.

00;12;40;13 - 00;12;50;10
Wayne Turmel
But mules are bred for very specific things, and every mule is going to have those particular things in them.

00;12;50;12 - 00;12;53;14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. That makes sense. It's intentional.

00;12;53;17 - 00;13;19;12
Wayne Turmel
It's intentional. And so that's a that's where the metaphor came from. Lest you think I do nothing all day but think of weird things. but when I started thinking about applying that to work and being intentional about how you form your team, so many teams are formed because, well, okay, here's what we got. So how do we make this work?

00;13;19;12 - 00;13;36;19
Wayne Turmel
And we got to make sure everybody's happy. And you know, yes, the work has to get done. But we'll just do this. And then they find out that it's not working. And now what do we do. And so it's little tweaks and adjustments rather than taking a long term view.

00;13;36;22 - 00;13;54;04
Marisa Eikenberry
So if a user and or user listener is on right now and maybe they realize that, you know, their organization has this platypus type hybrid model, what are some steps that they can take to kind of transition into a more mule like model?

00;13;54;07 - 00;14;24;21
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, there are questions and there are plenty of questions in the long distance leader. Some of the resources and things that you can get. If you sign up for the book on our website, you can get, resources and checklists for things. But the biggest thing is what is the work that needs to be done? Who needs to do the work, and what's the best optimum way for that work to get done?

00;14;24;26 - 00;14;40;09
Wayne Turmel
And if you can answer those, it starts to become fairly clear. Oh, this is something that does need to be, you know, the widgets need to be taken from the warehouse to a truck that's not going to happen any other way.

00;14;40;11 - 00;14;43;29
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Right. Yeah. Some stuff becomes very obvious.

00;14;44;01 - 00;15;05;04
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, some stuff is very obvious. Other stuff is like, do we really need to be in the office, or do we need to be doing that job from 9 to 5, whatever it is? And if the pandemic has taught us nothing, it's there are lots of jobs that can be done remotely that nobody thought about.

00;15;05;06 - 00;15;07;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Or thought couldn't be done remotely.

00;15;07;07 - 00;15;28;21
Wayne Turmel
Or thought couldn't be done. And man, maybe we need to do this. So the big thing that I want people to take away is what work needs to be done when and to be very intentional about that. And you might be wrong the first time.

00;15;28;24 - 00;15;29;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;15;29;22 - 00;15;36;10
Wayne Turmel
You may not get it right the first time. but you're in this for the long haul.

00;15;36;12 - 00;15;37;08
Marisa Eikenberry
One would hope.

00;15;37;10 - 00;16;09;13
Wayne Turmel
Hopefully. And so that's the thing about the hybrid work. And there are advantages, right? if we need to be in the office all the time and we need to hire new people, people will say, oh, we need to hire the absolute best, most talented people out there. And what they really mean is we need the best, most talented, smartest people out there who live within a 20 minute drive of the office right?

00;16;09;16 - 00;16;15;05
Wayne Turmel
If the best talent is what is most important to your business.

00;16;15;07 - 00;16;15;25
Marisa Eikenberry
They might be three.

00;16;15;28 - 00;16;34;24
Wayne Turmel
How much does location matter? Yeah, exactly. So these are the types of questions. So the whole thing about mules versus platypuses is a very long, convoluted, slightly amusing way of framing your thinking as you think about what your team should look like going forward.

00;16;34;26 - 00;16;52;24
Marisa Eikenberry
Real quick before we wrap up, you know, as hybrid work continues to evolve and continues to get more prevalent, do you think that organizations are going to be strategic and develop these mule like models, or do you think that platypus style models are going to remain prevalent?

00;16;52;27 - 00;17;29;05
Wayne Turmel
I think there's always some of it. Human beings are not great at strategic thinking, the ones who are very good at it. But human beings in general do not think very strategically. we're often reacting to the crisis de jure. I think again, new companies, startups, projects that are just getting under way have an advantage because you have a short period of time where you can actually stop and think about what you're doing before the work starts.

00;17;29;08 - 00;17;30;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;17;30;17 - 00;17;41;23
Wayne Turmel
So I'm trying to. Not be too judgmental about people that aren't because we're all doing our darndest here.

00;17;41;25 - 00;17;53;21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, yeah, we're trying our best. Right. But Wayne, thank you so much for these insights and why. You know, you have the that, hybrid versus platypus model or.

00;17;53;23 - 00;18;00;11
Wayne Turmel
You walk around with this brain and see what kind of stuff you come up with is all I'm saying.

00;18;00;14 - 00;18;03;29
Marisa Eikenberry
I'll choose not to, but that's another day. All right?

00;18;04;06 - 00;18;07;05
Wayne Turmel
Not a bad choice, by the way.

00;18;07;07 - 00;18;26;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay. But anyway, thank you so much. And before we go, I want to let all of you listeners know that the second edition of The Long Distance Leader, which if you're watching on video, I have right in front of me, it is now available. And this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

00;18;26;20 - 00;18;57;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Kevin, like Mary and Wayne Trammell, show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Order your copy now! At Long Distance Work life.com/l d l and strengthen your remote leadership skills today. And thank you for listening to the long Distance work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources, make sure to visit Long Distance worklife.com if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes.

00;18;57;23 - 00;19;14;22
Marisa Eikenberry
And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating or review. Your feedback helps us improve and reach even more listeners. Just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00;19;14;28 - 00;19;32;16
Marisa Eikenberry
We would love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us. And as Wayne like to say, don't let the whistles get you down.

00;19;32;18 - 00;19;32;23
Marisa Eikenberry



Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
01:05 Hybrid Work Explained
02:30 Mules vs. Platypuses
04:20 The Platypus Problem
06:10 What Makes a Good “Mule” Hybrid Model?
08:45 Hybrid Work Strategies
10:30 Asynchronous Work and Its Benefits
12:00 Building Intentional Hybrid Teams
14:00 Steps to Transition from Platypus to Mule
16:40 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Guests, Leadership, Working Remotely

Using DISC Assessments for Better Remote Teamwork with Guy Harris

Wayne Turmel welcomes Guy Harris, co-author of From Bud to Boss with Kevin Eikenberry and the expert behind DISC assessments at DISCpersonalitytesting.com. Guy shares insights into how DISC assessments can help remote teams communicate better, understand different behavior styles, and improve collaboration. Wayne and Guy explore common misuses of these assessments, how they can be effectively applied in leadership, and the unique challenges remote leaders face when interpreting team dynamics. Tune in for actionable tips on using DISC in a remote or hybrid work environment.

Key Takeaways

  • Introduction to DISC assessments and their relevance to remote work 
  • The value of behavior-based assessments in team dynamics 
  • Misconceptions and misuse of DISC assessments 
  • How DISC can help prevent misunderstandings in remote teams 
  • Why understanding different communication styles is critical for remote leadership 
  • Using DISC to guide, not judge, remote team members 
  • The importance of avoiding exclusion in remote teams 
  • Practical tips for applying DISC to remote leadership 

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;06 - 00;00;47;07
Wayne Turmel
Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to the Long Distance Worklife Podcast, the podcast where we help you thrive, survive, and generally keep the weasels at bay in the evolving world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. Marissa is not here today. That's the bad news. The good news is that we have a really excellent interview with a good friend of mine and all around good Egg, and we are going to be talking about assessments in remote work and disk assessment in particular.

00;00;47;14 - 00;00;57;12
Wayne Turmel
And so for that, I am going to welcome my buddy and coworker and very, very smart guy, guy Harris guy, how are you?

00;00;57;14 - 00;00;59;16
Guy Harris
I'm doing great. Wayne, how are you?

00;00;59;19 - 00;01;09;28
Wayne Turmel
I am ridiculously well glad I have an excuse to talk to you. This is one of the things about remote work is there are people you don't talk to nearly often enough.

00;01;09;28 - 00;01;11;03
Guy Harris
That is fair. Yep.

00;01;11;05 - 00;01;35;06
Wayne Turmel
Now, Guy, besides being the coauthor with Kevin, but the boss is also the brains behind discpersonalitytesting.com. This is a Kevin Eikenberry company. Full disclosure, but Guy, can you tell us a little bit about what is the disc assessment and why the heck do we care.

00;01;35;06 - 00;01;58;26
Guy Harris
So the disc assessment is, behavior based assessment. We use words interchangeably like behavior style, communication style. But in our line of work comment, leadership and conflict resolution and team building those kind of things, it's an assessment to help identify what a person's personal blend of traits would be, using the Disc model of human behavior as the language to describe those those traits.

00;01;58;26 - 00;02;16;23
Guy Harris
So it's attempting to find an objective way to describe human behavior that can be sort of subjective in and of itself or or attempting to objectify human behavior so that we can better identify differences between us so that we can communicate better.

00;02;16;23 - 00;02;39;19
Wayne Turmel
And we're going to talk about what Disc is and isn't and what it should be, and what it often gets used for and for. Dear listener, your information, and yes, we use Disc in our organization. There are plenty out there. By last count. I am a Idi enfj blue green otter, I believe.

00;02;39;19 - 00;02;51;14
Guy Harris
Well, and there's exactly the issue was behavioral health assessments. There are, I don't know how many. There are more than I can keep track of. And I think the value of it is just having a common language. So like pick something and use it in your team.

00;02;51;16 - 00;03;07;07
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Let's talk about that. What is the value of this kind of assessment in a really down and dirty. Why do I care that guy is an ass and somebody else is something else. Why does that matter?

00;03;07;09 - 00;03;29;18
Guy Harris
It comes down to better understanding the differences between us. Here's a rough correlation. It's kind of like knowing before you engage with someone that they speak only Spanish as opposed to you speaking English, so that you're prepared to make the translation in a similar way. We have different ways we engage and interact and focus and preference, all that kind of stuff.

00;03;29;18 - 00;03;58;25
Guy Harris
Even though we're all using English, at least we are. we're going to speak it and interpret it and perceive it slightly differently. And, the Disc model or any behavior based model helps us get closer and closer to understanding how another person might interpret what we say and do, and also help us better interpret what they say and do, so that we're basically trying to read other people's behaviors through their filters, not through our own personal filters.

00;03;58;28 - 00;04;19;12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I think one of the ways I always think about it is it's not analysis, but it gives you a pretty good idea. For example, if you and I work together in the office exactly together, I would very quickly learn that I don't go to guy without numbers data. The statistics you.

00;04;19;12 - 00;04;21;25
Guy Harris
Would pick up quickly because you would see that they did they.

00;04;21;27 - 00;04;46;03
Wayne Turmel
Quickly. Yes. Yeah. The look of horror and borderline disgust on your face as I ramble on would tell me that I need to work with Guy in a certain way, right? If we work apart from each other and we don't have that social exposure to each other, it's kind of helpful for me to know. And it's going to perhaps prevent some drama.

00;04;46;06 - 00;05;04;12
Guy Harris
Oh, absolutely. Because you're not going to have those day to day real life clues on, hey, here's how I adjust to work with Wayne, or here's how I talk to Marissa. Here are things that she cares about or he cares about, and assessments going to help you get there faster and with less stress and frustration. Hopefully because you have a frame of reference to engage with people.

00;05;04;12 - 00;05;35;09
Wayne Turmel
Now, it's funny because one of the things that seems counterintuitive since this personality testing.com sells not only individual assessments, but also team reports. So if you've got, you know, five people on your team and they each take the assessment, the report will tell you, here's what the impact of that is. Yes. All of that being said, I'm going to do something counterintuitive, which is ask you, how do people use these things wrong?

00;05;35;14 - 00;05;36;26
Wayne Turmel
Well, what do we know?

00;05;36;26 - 00;05;58;15
Guy Harris
I think it's excellent because, well, I mean, a quote and, the quote that resonates with me is all models are flawed. Some of them are useful. So, the disc model is a model of behavior. It's not a perfect predictor. It has flaws and limitations and all that kind of stuff. I acknowledge it openly. So in order to use it well, you got to know how you shouldn't use it.

00;05;58;17 - 00;06;20;25
Guy Harris
Well, one of the ways you don't want to use it is to get what I would say, overly prescriptive with it. So as we were just talking about it does give me a general idea how to better interpret and understand another person. And it's actually really good in retrospect to like, hear what somebody said or observe what somebody did and go, oh, I think I better understand that because I understand their behavior style.

00;06;20;27 - 00;06;46;21
Guy Harris
It's really not good to like, try to constrain somebody and predict with certainty how they're going to respond. So a good example is I can know for a fact. I can know from the disc model looking at that, Wayne's results go, probably wouldn't be ideal if the first thing I do is dump a bunch of data on his plate and ask him to interpret it, or try to persuade him with data, it's probably going to be a different approach.

00;06;46;21 - 00;07;06;23
Guy Harris
It's probably more of an interactive thing, probably. Let's talk about this rather than, hey, here's all my 17 levels of research, and I could run into a situation where I share something with Wayne and he says, do you have some data to support that? So I don't want to get prescriptive, like Wayne is capable or not capable of doing a job because of the style.

00;07;06;26 - 00;07;14;24
Wayne Turmel
that's a little things. A lot of people, you know, a lot of people come to us and they want to use whatever the assessment is, whatever.

00;07;14;24 - 00;07;15;12
Guy Harris
The assessment is.

00;07;15;16 - 00;07;19;02
Wayne Turmel
Whatever, you know, whether you're a lion or an otter or whatever it is.

00;07;19;02 - 00;07;20;23
Guy Harris
Whatever language you use to describe it. Yes.

00;07;20;23 - 00;07;34;20
Wayne Turmel
But they want to use that in hiring to say particularly around remote work. So and so is a good candidate for remote work, or so-and-so is not a good candidate for remote work.

00;07;34;24 - 00;07;56;14
Guy Harris
I think it's overly prescriptive. It does it help to kind of understand fit in a team and maybe the kind of things people might gravitate to or might not gravitate to. Does it give you a good framework for asking questions to see what people's preferences are? Yeah, absolutely. Do I want to use it to decide in advance this person's capable or not capable of doing something?

00;07;56;16 - 00;08;09;13
Guy Harris
I don't think it says that it it doesn't talk about work ethic. It doesn't talk about preference. It doesn't talk about the necessarily the kind of work people like. There are inferences not conclusions. You can draw from the well.

00;08;09;13 - 00;08;17;19
Wayne Turmel
And whenever I hear somebody say fit for a team, I get a little shiver down my question.

00;08;17;19 - 00;08;20;09
Guy Harris
And yeah, you got to be really careful how far you go with that.

00;08;20;12 - 00;08;36;05
Wayne Turmel
You know? For example, even on the most analytical team, I think you need a jeopardy expert on your team. And by that I mean you need somebody who is not laser focused but knows a whole bunch of stuff about.

00;08;36;05 - 00;08;40;09
Guy Harris
Oh, I think you're right. Yeah. Because there's a risk of getting too much groupthink.

00;08;40;11 - 00;09;04;06
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. Right. That's that's a concern. Now, how do you let's say we all take there are six members of our team, and we all take the disk. But just assessment as a leader, how do I use that in a way that is useful and constructive and not like saying, oh, everybody be nice to guy because he's a C.

00;09;04;08 - 00;09;26;07
Guy Harris
Yeah. So, I think in terms of taking like a holistic view of the role first, and I would very seldom say a single person should make that determination, like several people, probably with different looks at the job, different types of interaction, different different behavior styles in and of themselves. We'll look okay. What what does does it take to be successful in that role.

00;09;26;07 - 00;10;00;04
Guy Harris
And once I understand that, I go, okay, probably the person who's successful in this role, I mean, the type of environment they work in demands a lot of dark traits or demands a lot of this, or it may not traits, behaviors, DNC behaviors, or CNS behaviors, whatever the combination is. And then I could probably look at like, potential candidates for the job and think, and use that as a way to guide my interview questions so that I'm investigating a person's comfort with certain things, rather than using it as a filter that says you must have the style to have the job.

00;10;00;04 - 00;10;12;04
Guy Harris
So it's more of like it guides me and how I engage with the person for the interview process. And knowing that interview processes are also flawed, because we bring our biases and stuff to the table.

00;10;12;06 - 00;10;15;24
Wayne Turmel
Basically nothing works, so nothing works. So why should we bother?

00;10;15;27 - 00;10;41;02
Guy Harris
Is like, yeah, I think it's like we should acknowledge there are some limitations for anything we do, and let's just acknowledge those limitations and then work within them so that this model can help you guide your interaction with the person so you understand where they're coming from better. I don't think you really want to use it as a filter that says they must meet this criteria to have the job so it fits in the helped me understand the person better category rather than a let me force this.

00;10;41;05 - 00;10;43;29
Guy Harris
Well, let me force this person through a filter kind of thing.

00;10;43;29 - 00;10;55;22
Wayne Turmel
Now, one of the things that I love about you is that you are a unabashed geek and you love rolling around in the numbers and seeing what I do.

00;10;55;22 - 00;10;57;09
Guy Harris
I do love numbers. Yes.

00;10;57;11 - 00;11;00;29
Wayne Turmel
Yes, more than you like people, which is fine.

00;11;01;01 - 00;11;03;29
Guy Harris
significantly more. Yeah, yeah.

00;11;04;02 - 00;11;27;11
Wayne Turmel
Which is lovely. Somebody has to do a brother and it's not me, but I'm curious. There's the assessment and then there's the team report, which uses a really fascinating algorithm to say if your team has four of people who are heavy in one area, right. Maybe. Right. It's really a good report. And you can get a free sample of one of those reports.

00;11;27;12 - 00;11;46;09
Guy Harris
There's a sample report on this first night testing.com. So you can see if it provides the kind of information you like. Yeah. And actually the report is intended as a discussion guide more than as a here's the thing about your team. It's more it says okay, here are patterns we see in your team. And here are some things you probably want to get as a leader.

00;11;46;09 - 00;12;06;18
Guy Harris
You want to engage with your team about to identify. Are we having some groupthink around these issues? Are we excluding? Like for example, if my team gravitates really heavy to the DNC, traits are we tending to exclude people who have a more relational perspective and not, like, discount their input because it's not important to the five of us.

00;12;06;23 - 00;12;23;01
Guy Harris
So therefore it's not important or are we looking at taking taken apart, going, oh look, we we might inadvertently discount this perspective because it's not ours. And maybe we should listen to that input or seek that input out, because it's not natural for us to consider that.

00;12;23;03 - 00;12;51;06
Wayne Turmel
And given that one of the most corrosive behaviors on remote teams is exclusion, yes. That's very easy to have happen, right? Very easy to naturally gravitate towards people who think and act like us. Absolutely. And therefore, you know, Marissa and Guy are going to drill down on this thing because what use is Wayne going to be? He might be and Wayne might be feeling left out of this.

00;12;51;08 - 00;13;11;05
Guy Harris
And Wayne might see something that never even occurred to Guy Marissa because it's like, oh, but this is obvious to us. Surely don't have a question about that. And yet Wayne or Barb or Kevin looks at and goes, hey, what about oh, I guess we didn't answer that question because it's so obvious to us, right? And like, ignore that input or discount it rather than value it.

00;13;11;08 - 00;13;20;06
Wayne Turmel
Now, you've been doing this a long time and rolling around in in the numbers. What have you learned that surprises you.

00;13;20;13 - 00;13;24;14
Guy Harris
About the Dis model or assessments in general?

00;13;24;16 - 00;13;27;29
Wayne Turmel
whatever jumps into your dinky little brain.

00;13;28;02 - 00;13;55;13
Guy Harris
I think it's kind of like my journey in using the model is because engineer by training, really analytical by nature. I started my journey using the disk model. I was guilty of being over prescriptive and like, oh, I know this about you. I know that your style, therefore I know all this stuff about you and it's the realization or insight over time just how dynamic people are and how careful I have to be in assumptions I make about people.

00;13;55;13 - 00;14;16;28
Guy Harris
So that's one of the things that has, like the developing in my journeys, like, hey guy, slow your roll a little bit. Let me maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions about that person so fast. Maybe you should take the assessment. Yes. Use that as a way to understand and like the phrase I use a lot is I want to remain curious, not judging.

00;14;16;28 - 00;14;36;26
Guy Harris
So the model helps me, actually heighten my curiosity when I gauge that people have a different style because now I'm like, wonder. Like, well, how do you see this? It. I think we see things differently. Help me understand that. As opposed to, oh, I know your style. Therefore I know how you see things. So it's more it helps me engage the people in a better way.

00;14;36;26 - 00;14;41;27
Guy Harris
And it's it's been really kind of cool to learn all the different ways people express their own style.

00;14;42;03 - 00;15;04;07
Wayne Turmel
Just one last question. Specifically when it comes to remote teams is there's something, a leader, one thing that a leader should consider, when it comes to the disc model that is not necessarily unique, but very specific to the remote workplace.

00;15;04;08 - 00;15;27;05
Guy Harris
I think it's something you touched on, is that tendency to either isolate from the team or to only connect with people who it's really easy and natural to interact with, because there's not the organic. I'm kind of forced to interact with people in the office that if I have to send an email or engage with them on instant messaging platform or something, I kind of have to have some initiative or intentionality to do that.

00;15;27;05 - 00;15;49;02
Guy Harris
It won't just accidentally happen. And so one thing I think unawareness for leaders is to look for places where people either isolate from or only interact with those that are like, super comfortable to interact with and start to have little clicks within the team, or only certain people that interact with each other, intentionally or unintentionally exclude certain members of the team.

00;15;49;02 - 00;16;00;04
Guy Harris
Don't invite them into the conversation. Those are the things I'd be looking for, because the remote environment sort of lends itself to reinforce that behavior. If leaders are not intentional about trying to break it down.

00;16;00;07 - 00;16;25;19
Wayne Turmel
Guy, thank you so, so much for you listeners out there. this personality test Inc.com, we will have links to that and to Guy in the show notes. show notes, of course, are at long distance work life.com. If you have questions, comments, vicious personal attacks, ideas for topics that you want us to talk about or people you want us to talk with, drop us a line.

00;16;25;19 - 00;17;04;10
Wayne Turmel
Wayne. At Kevin. I can become Marissa at Kevin. I can barricade them. And very exciting stuff. September 17th is the launch of the second edition updated version of the Long Distance Leader revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid Leadership. we're very excited about this. Kevin. And I, wrote the original six years ago. Little has changed in the world since then, and so we urge you to check that out if you are familiar with the book, there is new content, particularly around hybrid teams.

00;17;04;17 - 00;17;29;29
Wayne Turmel
If you are unfamiliar with the book, now's a really good time to get on the stick. Anyway, thank you so, so much for joining us. We are super excited you did! If you enjoyed the show, please like and subscribe. You know how podcasts work and next week we will be back in a really fun conversation with Marissa. Meanwhile, I am Wayne Trammell.

00;17;29;29 - 00;17;35;15
Wayne Turmel
Thanks for joining us on the long distance work life. Don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.


Timestamps

0:00 Intro: Guy Harris & DISC Assessments
1:35 What is the DISC assessment?
2:50 Why DISC matters in leadership and remote teams
4:10 Preventing misunderstandings with DISC
5:45 Common mistakes when using DISC
7:00 Applying DISC to remote team leadership
8:35 Avoiding exclusion in remote teams
10:05 How to use DISC reports for team building
11:45 New Book: The Long-Distance Leader
12:50 Final thoughts and links

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Leader

Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

 Order
The Long-Distance Leader
Read More
Revised Rules for Remote Leadership: What's New in The Long-Distance Leader, 2nd Edition
Guests, Hybrid Work, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Revised Rules for Remote Leadership: What’s New in The Long-Distance Leader, 2nd Edition

Marisa Eikenberry interviews special guest Kevin Eikenberry and co-host Wayne Turmel about the newly revised second edition of The Long-Distance Leader. Together, they explore the biggest changes in remote work and leadership since the book’s first release in 2018. Kevin and Wayne share insights on navigating the evolving world of hybrid work, the impact of technological advancements like Zoom, and the critical balance between synchronous and asynchronous work.

Whether you're an established leader or new to remote teams, this conversation offers actionable strategies to thrive in a hybrid environment. Tune in to learn how remote leadership has transformed, what hybrid work truly means, and how you can stay ahead in the remote work revolution.

Key Takeaways

  • What’s changed in remote leadership since 2018? 
  • The rise of Zoom and its impact on work culture 
  • Challenges of hybrid work and how to overcome them
  • The difference between remote-first and remote-friendly workplaces 
  • How the second edition of The Long-Distance Leader addresses modern leadership needs 
  • Kevin’s upcoming book on flexible leadership 
  • Surprising trends in remote work: Who really wants to stay remote? 
  • The importance of intentional leadership in hybrid teams 

    • View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;01 - 00;00;35;20
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Long Distance Work Life, the podcast designed to help you thrive. Survive, and generally keep the weasels at bay as we navigate the world of remote work, hybrid work, and how the workplace has changing. Today, we have a very different kind of show. Ordinarily, if it's Marissa and I, we chat and discuss the topic.

    00;00;36;02 - 00;01;07;19
    Wayne Turmel
    otherwise I interview guests. But today, because we are talking about a very special book that Marissa will tell you about, I am playing the role of hot shot author, or at least co hot shot author is our friend and boss and colleague Kevin Eikenberry. And we will be discussing the second edition, newly revised version of the Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership.

    00;01;07;19 - 00;01;16;04
    Wayne Turmel
    And I got that out the first time. Yay! But Marissa, you are playing interviewer today, so you are running the show lady.

    00;01;16;05 - 00;01;33;06
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Thank you. And so, as we already said, we're going to talk about the second edition of The Long Distance Leader, which was written by Kevin and Wayne, and it's a book that's been a cornerstone for remote leaders, set its first release in May of 2018, and so much of the world has already changed as far as leadership and remote work.

    00;01;33;06 - 00;01;43;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And so we're going to dive into what's new in the second edition, and how leaders can navigate the evolving challenges of leading from a distance. So, Kevin, thank you for joining Wayne and I today.

    00;01;43;04 - 00;01;49;01
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I'm glad to be here. you know, this is I think it's I think this is only the second time I've been on the show, so.

    00;01;49;08 - 00;02;09;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, second or third. So we're excited to have you back. And I hope that our listeners are excited as well. So one of the things that I want to start off with first, so as we already said, the book came out in 2018. So much of the world has changed since then. So what are some of the biggest shifts that you've observed since the rise of remote work?

    00;02;09;17 - 00;02;32;28
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Biggest shifts? You know, I think that I I'll just say this. I think that we are in the middle of living in a time where time has been compressed. And here's what I mean. Like the nature of the workplace usually changes in takes like 50, 60, 70 years for that sort of adjustment to sort of filter through, being tested, being tried, being sort of, acclimate the world, the society being acclimated to it.

    00;02;33;12 - 00;02;53;00
    Kevin Eikenberry
    and in this one, it largely happened in like eight weeks and then over two years. And so what I think all of the changes, all the challenges, all the frustrations, all of the stuff that you guys talk about here on a regular basis are in part because we're living in this very compressed time of change that we've not ever experienced in the workplace.

    00;02;53;00 - 00;03;09;24
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Like we could go back and talk about since the Industrial Revolution and all that sort of stuff. But that's, to me, the most fascinating thing about all this, like human dynamics show up, people's people's, wants and needs show up and their and their tendencies around change show up. And it's all because of that to me.

    00;03;09;27 - 00;03;17;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, absolutely. And and we've talked on the show before to your point about eight weeks. It's like zoom went from, what is that to a verb?

    00;03;17;18 - 00;03;18;09
    Kevin Eikenberry
    It really.

    00;03;18;09 - 00;03;20;19
    Wayne Turmel
    And then from to is syndrome, right.

    00;03;20;19 - 00;03;22;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. Zoom fatigue and all that.

    00;03;22;11 - 00;03;50;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah I think Kevin's absolutely right. The, the kind of seismic change. And yet what is both interesting and frustrating is how little it has changed. Right. some of that is because the change was already underway when the kind of crossing the Rubicon moment happened. And the other thing is, I think there's this desperate attempt to go back to the before times.

    00;03;50;10 - 00;03;55;15
    Wayne Turmel
    So we're not really embracing what's changed and launching from that point.

    00;03;55;17 - 00;03;56;12
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;03;56;14 - 00;03;57;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Well that's the key.

    00;03;57;02 - 00;04;15;17
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So it's, it's that it's that tension between the, the future and and and and so many things are pulling us forward. And yet so many of us and I'll say us are holding us back with the way it used to be and the good old days. And why can't we all be in the office and 100 other things like that, right.

    00;04;15;19 - 00;04;22;14
    Kevin Eikenberry
    It's that tension. That's where this is so interesting. and really where so much of the conversation ends up lying, I think.

    00;04;22;15 - 00;04;36;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and, you know, just a second ago, I mentioned, you know, zoom went to a verb. And when you guys wrote the book, tools like zoom and even Microsoft Teams didn't exist yet. So how have those communication tools transformed the way that we work?

    00;04;36;14 - 00;05;01;04
    Wayne Turmel
    So I think that it's it's transformed in two ways. One is it's normalized them. I mean, when the book first came out, one of the big lessons was use your webcam. Well, now, you know, people understand it's not going to steal your soul. And everybody, including your grandmother, has been on a zoom call and they know kind of what that's about.

    00;05;01;04 - 00;05;22;22
    Wayne Turmel
    So I think, you know, the the novelty of the technology. The other thing is that, you know, I'm going to give you a very quick analogy. When I started my consultancy, 18 years ago, there were 120 web meeting platforms out there. Everybody was inventing a new one all the time, and then it kind of collapsed into the top five, right?

    00;05;22;22 - 00;05;46;14
    Wayne Turmel
    There's WebEx and there was Skype for business and whatever. And now we have gone through another one of those collapsing where at the beginning of the pandemic, there were a thousand tools out there and people had enough already. It's not that we don't love technology, it's that we've got work to do. And they were kind of looking for one ring to rule them all.

    00;05;46;21 - 00;06;09;12
    Wayne Turmel
    And so we've settled into there's kind of the Google universe, there's the slack zoom universe, and there's Microsoft Teams. And you can argue whether teams was designed by Sauron or not. But at the end of the day, people are looking for ways to get the work done with as little drama and pain about technology as possible.

    00;06;09;15 - 00;06;29;21
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. And drag. Can I just make a comment? and this will probably take us off track for what you're planning, Marissa. But that that that webcam comment that, that Wayne made is exactly right. And and yet here's this tension. And yet when I'm with groups regularly, I still have people saying, do we really have to use our webcams?

    00;06;29;21 - 00;06;47;01
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Like so everyone now has use them. And yet in some ways, the message that we had in 2018, Wayne hasn't completely changed because the reasons they don't want to may be different, right? The reason they may want to not want to use them might not be the same that a still in there. So I'll see in my living room all that stuff.

    00;06;47;07 - 00;07;02;10
    Kevin Eikenberry
    But but the but the the fact that some people don't want to be on them is still there. And that's one of those tensions. Right. Like that. The drag on it, the ease of doing it all, that's gotten better. And yet we're not all really there. It's just a small example of what we talked about earlier.

    00;07;02;11 - 00;07;18;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Speaking of all of that kind of stuff too. So like one of the things that you guys have added into this new edition of the book is a lot of discussion about hybrid. And so what are some of the unique challenges and opportunities for hybrid work presents compared to a fully remote or a fully in office setup?

    00;07;19;00 - 00;07;36;05
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I think the single biggest thing, and it's really not rocket science, the single biggest thing to me is that if we're going to have a hybrid workplace where some or all of the people are going to be in the office some of the time, then we ought to use those days as appropriate. And so what I always say is not every workday should be the same.

    00;07;36;08 - 00;07;56;11
    Kevin Eikenberry
    The day should go to the office, ought to be different kinds of day. It's more likely you're going to collaborate to have those those serendipitous conversations. that's the chance to work with a mentor. That's the chance to do side by side training. Like we ought to make sure that we're taking advantage of those days and then releasing people when they're back home to get more, have more productivity with fewer meetings, etc..

    00;07;56;13 - 00;08;06;19
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So to me, that's the single biggest thing that's relatively easy to implement. And yet I'm still seeing most organizations not doing that very well.

    00;08;06;22 - 00;08;50;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and part of that, I think, is because they're looking at going back to the office says, okay, we are now primarily in the office again. And the people who are working remotely are outliers, or they will adjust because we're in the office. What I think one of those seismic changes that Kevin was referring to earlier is that companies that are starting now are much more comfortable with the remote workplace and trying less to cram it into the old model than companies where the boat's already in the water and you're dealing with memories of before time and sunk costs and all kinds of things.

    00;08;50;26 - 00;09;06;21
    Wayne Turmel
    So that's another one of the changes is that if I'm starting a company and I don't need a big office and I don't need to be all the time, cool, but if I've already got that infrastructure, I'm already paying for it.

    00;09;06;21 - 00;09;08;14
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Wayne. Right.

    00;09;08;17 - 00;09;15;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, it goes back to the conversation we've had before about remote first versus remote friendly and how they're very, very different.

    00;09;15;29 - 00;09;39;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and one of the challenges with that is that there's a tendency for leaders to fall back into old habits. And so there are some pitfalls with hybrid work primarily being proximity bias that, you know, it's really easy to look across the room and see somebody. So they get involved in the conversation and somebody gets excluded. Not intentionally.

    00;09;39;26 - 00;09;51;06
    Wayne Turmel
    I'm not, you know, not including somebody. It just doesn't happen naturally. And so that dynamic needs to be navigated well.

    00;09;51;06 - 00;10;07;21
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And then we think everybody knows whatever the thing is. And yet oh, well, we didn't know what sent an email or a slack message or send it. It's put some in the teams channels. So the only the everybody that knows are those that are here. I mean, we used to have that once in a while when someone was home sick or on vacation.

    00;10;07;21 - 00;10;29;12
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. But that just happens way, way, way more often now and again. Not intentional just happens. We've got to be, you know, one of the messages from the first version of the book and still in there is that word of being intentional, like making conscious choices, stepping back from our routines and our habits, from the auto utter response to, to doing what is the the best thing given the situation.

    00;10;29;13 - 00;10;42;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and Wayne, you just mentioned a minute ago about companies that are starting now are more comfortable with remote work and so, you know, how should organizations approach hybrid work differently, whether they're an established team or they're newly forming?

    00;10;42;25 - 00;11;09;06
    Wayne Turmel
    I am like a dog with a sock on this particular topic. I think you have to be very careful about using the word hybrid. Are you, in fact doing hybrid work or or are you doing, you know, remote friendly work? With the focus in the office, a hybrid? If we're going to be really technical and semantic about it, a hybrid is two things coming together to create a third entity.

    00;11;09;08 - 00;11;28;18
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, a mule is a horse and a donkey, but as an old farm boy, a mule is a mule. I mean, it is its own thing. And I think over time we are going to develop this third way of working, this hybrid work that is not only who works where, but the element of time gets folded in.

    00;11;28;20 - 00;11;38;14
    Wayne Turmel
    So it's what work gets done where and when that work gets done. And the balance between synchronous and asynchronous is going to be very different.

    00;11;38;14 - 00;11;54;20
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I think that's huge. And I think, you know, you know, when it in the in the first book we, we introduced that we used the word hybrid. And and I wish that I could I wish that everybody on the internet would say, oh, these guys created that that phrase for the hybrid team, which, no, we can't, we can't say.

    00;11;54;22 - 00;12;12;23
    Kevin Eikenberry
    But when we use that word, that's what we meant even in 2018. Right. And and I think it's it's not it's not always meaning that. But ultimately that's what that's what it needs to mean. And organizations that figure out how to do it that way, if that's the way they want to do work, will have a competitive advantage.

    00;12;12;26 - 00;12;29;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So, Kevin, you know, you've had the Kevin Like Mary group for over 30 years. And we've been a hybrid team for a very, very long time. And so if you were starting a business today, if you were starting this business today, what would you do differently than you did when you started?

    00;12;30;00 - 00;12;46;24
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Well, what I do different than when I started it, different than what I would do, knowing what I know now, I suppose. Yeah. but I think that in terms of, how I hired who I, where I look for the hiring pool, I don't think it would change. Much like, I think that, you know, I do have a separate building.

    00;12;46;26 - 00;13;21;17
    Kevin Eikenberry
    That's where I'm sitting right now, that Marissa, you come to two days a week, but only if I'm here. Right? and I think there would still be a place, it would be like it is. And it's not. Wouldn't. How's everybody? Because not everyone would be. How? Isabel? Because they're all across the country. I'm not sure. I mean, there's lots of things that that we could do different about our business, but in terms of how it's set up, I'm not sure I would change that much because I think that what we have works not only works for us, but we're generally I, you know, while there's always room for improvement, we're relatively productive.

    00;13;21;25 - 00;13;31;05
    Kevin Eikenberry
    There's there's good relationships. we have we're able to collaborate. And I don't think that having us all in the same place, or even less so, would make any difference.

    00;13;31;07 - 00;13;32;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, that makes a lot of, you know.

    00;13;32;23 - 00;13;57;11
    Wayne Turmel
    What I'm going to I'm going to mildly contradict that. Okay. when I joined the group, I lived in Chicago. Most of the people were in, most of the people were there, and we communicated it a little bit differently. We got together more often. We spoke more often, I think, because the longevity of the people on our team has been there for a while.

    00;13;58;00 - 00;14;23;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Kevin's comfort level as the boss with waiting, you know, letting people get their work done and trusting that we will come to him proactively if there's something that needs to be addressed. I think the way and the comfort level with that is different than it was even a few years ago. As you know, the decision was made.

    00;14;23;05 - 00;14;28;15
    Wayne Turmel
    We're not going to focus on hiring people in Indianapolis. We're not going to.

    00;14;28;17 - 00;14;29;22
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. so, I mean, I'm not.

    00;14;29;22 - 00;14;32;28
    Wayne Turmel
    Disagreeing with I think Kevin's comfort level and skill level.

    00;14;32;28 - 00;14;46;01
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Yeah, I, I won't disagree with that either. and yet, I think if the question is about being willing to, to bring people from different places. Yeah. Like, I mean, I think part of the reason we write the book, The Long Distance Leader and why we write a second edition of it, is to help people continue to build those skills.

    00;14;46;01 - 00;15;03;16
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Right. And I think that that's the question we get asked a lot now. Marissa is okay, why a second version of the book? And people say, well, yeah, we get it that the world is different, but do we still need this book? Because we've all been many of us been doing this for 2 or 3 years. I said, well, we've all needed new, more leadership training, even though we've been leading for longer than that.

    00;15;03;16 - 00;15;26;26
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And I think a lot of people have have haven't really locked into some of these things that maybe they know because they've done it for a few years. And I think the idea of this book is in part to not only show us what's different and changing, but also what we need to make sure we're really doing well, that I'm I'm pretty confident not all leaders of remote hybrid distributed teams are doing.

    00;15;26;29 - 00;15;36;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So for people who are reading the book or, you know, once they do read the book, what are some actionable steps that they can take, both organizationally or even professionally. After reading?

    00;15;36;23 - 00;15;55;16
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Okay, here's a short answer and then I'll let you go. Wayne. The short answer is don't just read it. Do something like you will determine when you read it, what those most actionable steps are. And I think we've written a book that is actionable and that gives you very specific things that you can go do. In fact, every chapter tells you, gives you some examples.

    00;15;55;18 - 00;16;08;12
    Kevin Eikenberry
    But the point that I'm making is that it the best thing you can do is go take action on whatever those most important things are to you, because it would be a bit presumptuous for Wayne and I to determine which two things those would be for an individual leader.

    00;16;08;12 - 00;16;32;00
    Wayne Turmel
    I just think that, you know, the the most dangerous thing is to think you've got it all figured out. And one of the challenges that we're hearing from our clients is, oh, we know that people could use a little help, but we've done remote, right? We did remote training during Covid. People know what they're doing now, and we never entirely know what we're doing.

    00;16;32;00 - 00;16;49;00
    Wayne Turmel
    And there's some backsliding and there's some things that we thought people knew that they're not doing. And so maintaining that skill development is really important. And I know that sounds self-serving. since that's the business we're in. Okay. But it also happens to be true.

    00;16;49;03 - 00;17;07;06
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Yeah. There's a difference between knowing something and doing something. Right. it's a and there's a big gap there a lot of the times. And so I, you know, I think Wayne and I are, are coming to that same point, like if you or if your organization did some training on remote, that's fine. That's great. but the question is how is it going now?

    00;17;07;13 - 00;17;20;17
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And if it's not going in the ways you'd like it to go, or you think it could be better, then I'm confident you'll find nuggets in this book. in the second edition of this book that would help you as a leader, but also help the leaders in your organization.

    00;17;20;17 - 00;17;29;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So we've gone from leader to teammate to team. Kevin, what's next for you in the world of remote and hybrid work? What's the next thing you're focusing on?

    00;17;29;22 - 00;17;49;10
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Well, I'm I'm writing a new book that's not specifically about that, but it is about the future of work. In some ways it comes out next, next March. And maybe I can convince you guys to have me on to talk about the flexible leader. or flexible leadership when, when that time comes down the road. So but it's not specifically or solely about remote.

    00;17;49;10 - 00;18;01;07
    Kevin Eikenberry
    The word remote doesn't show up or hybrid doesn't show up in the title. But certainly, there are hat tips and conversations about not only what we've been going through as lessons, but also what we do moving forward as well.

    00;18;01;10 - 00;18;15;12
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That's great. And Wayne, I know that hybrid work has been something that you've been talking about a lot. You mentioned the mule versus, you know, donkey earlier. So what are some aspects with hybrid that you're obsessed with exploring right now?

    00;18;15;14 - 00;18;41;00
    Wayne Turmel
    I think it's that being intentional about the balance of synchronous and asynchronous work. You know, my favorite example is we've all walked into meetings and had to sit there while, you know, all the preamble and context is created. Well, we could do a lot of that beforehand. And then the meeting happens. And then we've all walked out of meetings and halfway down the hallway we've got oh, man, you know what?

    00;18;41;00 - 00;19;06;26
    Wayne Turmel
    I should have said is correct. And so there is getting together in collaboration time. And then there's thinking and planning time on both ends, which can make way better use of our time and result in better outcomes. And so it's what does that hybrid work look like and how do we get better, smarter, faster about it is kind of where my brain is at.

    00;19;06;28 - 00;19;22;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. Well I'm excited to do some episodes about that in the future. And before we wrap up, I have one last question. So other than the pandemic, which obviously changed a lot of things about remote and hybrid work, what is one surprising change in remote work that you didn't anticipate?

    00;19;22;22 - 00;19;45;17
    Wayne Turmel
    It's it's who wants remote work? one of the things that the numbers are showing is people thought that the youngsters wouldn't want to go to the office, and they all want to stay home and, you know, do their work. Between playing video games, no young people want to go to the office. They're early in their career. They're more socially program.

    00;19;45;17 - 00;20;05;11
    Wayne Turmel
    And they they want to learn and soak up the knowledge and the culture of the company, the people that are most demanding, remote work are middle managers, people in the middle of their career who know how to do their job, and they just want to do it, and they want to do it in a way that they can do it best.

    00;20;05;11 - 00;20;16;01
    Wayne Turmel
    They want some flexibility in their time. So some of the assumptions about who is going to want to work remotely have not proven to be the way we thought they were.

    00;20;16;07 - 00;20;50;15
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I think the thing part of part of I think I shared part of my answer earlier with this whole compacting of the timeline, but I but I will say that I think that it's been a bit surprising and I think generally hopeful and helpful that, we've, we've added in a whole other conversation, not just about the where and the when of work, but the why of work, which is, which is, people wanting to have a better sense of, of why they're there and what and finding meaning in their work and how they hook.

    00;20;50;23 - 00;20;51;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Work.

    00;20;51;14 - 00;21;09;08
    Kevin Eikenberry
    To life. Right. Which has been messy for a long time, got messier when people were working from the place that they live. But I think the the ongoing conversation about all of that, I think is generally healthy, and we need to keep thinking about it as individuals, for ourselves, but also as leaders in organizations.

    00;21;09;11 - 00;21;16;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Kevin, I know that, you know, when this episode comes out, we're about to have virtual con. do you want to talk a little bit about that before we wrap up?

    00;21;17;02 - 00;21;43;27
    Kevin Eikenberry
    Yeah, I can just very quickly. So, you know, back at the start of the pandemic, I had this harebrained idea that we should, when no one was having doing any training and couldn't get away, couldn't do that. So we created this thing we called virtual Leader Con, and we've continued to do it. It's evolved somewhat, but, on September 17th through 19th, we're doing two and a half days where we will have a bunch of experts join me, to on a, a virtual platform that allows for lots of participation and engagement.

    00;21;44;00 - 00;22;01;29
    Kevin Eikenberry
    And we're going to bring those leaders in, those thought leaders in to have conversations with, with our participants from around the world to talk about what matters. And I think the thing that makes a difference than a podcast or a webinar or other those kinds of things, is that that the the direction of the, of the conversation is guided much by the people that are there.

    00;22;01;29 - 00;22;24;05
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So we'd love to have you join us. It's completely free virtual contact. Com and I think the thing that specifically relates to this show is that that first half day on September the 17th, Wayne will be joining me at the beginning, and at the end we'll be we'll be doing a Q&A, but we'll have three guests, and that whole session will be about the future of work, hybrid work, and all those sorts of things.

    00;22;24;05 - 00;22;40;09
    Kevin Eikenberry
    So if you're listening to this show, you definitely want to join us that half day virtual leader. Contact. Com. And if you decide you wanted to have the recordings and transcripts of those sessions, you can get them for free if you preorder a book. And I know that's where you're headed is to talk about that. That is our I'll let you be.

    00;22;40;09 - 00;22;45;14
    Kevin Eikenberry
    I hope that we'll have you all join us at Virtual Con. And, and thank you guys for having me on the show.

    00;22;45;21 - 00;23;09;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes. Thank you so much for being here. And, Wayne, as always, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. And before we go, as we've already been discussing, the second edition of The Long Distance Leader is available for preorder and will be launching on September 17th. As we just talked about a minute ago, and this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

    00;23;09;24 - 00;23;32;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Kevin and Wayne show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Preorder your copy now at Long Distance Work life.com/lvl and strengthen your remote leadership skills today. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to the Longest and Spark Life version ups, transcripts, and other resources.

    00;23;32;10 - 00;23;55;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Make sure to visit Long Distance worklife.com if you haven't yet. Subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating and review. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

    00;23;55;14 - 00;24;15;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    We would love to hear from you and thanks for joining us. And it's Wayne. Like to say, don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.

    00;24;16;01 - 00;24;16;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You.


    Featured Guest

    Name: Kevin Eikenberry

    Bio: Chief Potential Officer of The Kevin Eikenberry Group and co-author of Long-Distance Leader

    Timestamps

    00:00 Intro: Welcome to the Show
    01:33 What’s New in The Long-Distance Leader, 2nd Edition?
    04:22 Zoom Fatigue and Remote Work Tools
    07:02 Hybrid Work: Challenges and Opportunities
    09:08 Remote-First vs. Remote-Friendly Workplaces
    11:09 Building Trust in Hybrid Teams
    15:03 What You’ll Learn from The 2nd Edition
    17:29 Kevin’s Next Project: The Flexible Leader
    19:22 Who Actually Prefers Remote Work?
    20:50 Leading Hybrid Teams with Intention
    22:50 Virtual LeaderCon: Join Us!
    23:09 Wrap-Up and How to Preorder the Book

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

     Pre-Order
    The Long-Distance Leader
    Read More
    Ask Wayne Anything, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

    The Long-Distance Leader’s Evolution and Its Ongoing Relevance

    This is a repost of one of our favorite episodes from The Long-Distance Worklife. As we approach the release of the 2nd edition of The Long-Distance Leader, we’re revisiting this special conversation where Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry celebrate the book's fourth anniversary. Wayne reflects on the unexpected changes in remote work since the original publication, how the book's advice has held up, and what to look forward to in the updated edition. Whether you’re new to the podcast or revisiting this discussion, it’s the perfect time to hear insights on leading from a distance.

    Key Takeaways

    1. The Unexpected Surge in Remote Work: How the pandemic accelerated trends and pushed remote work to the forefront.
    2. Stealth Remote Work: The hidden practice that many companies ignored until 2020.
    3. Evergreen Principles: Why the leadership principles in The Long-Distance Leader remain relevant, even as technology and work patterns evolve.

    View Full Transcript

    00:00:08:18 - 00:00:18:18
    Wayne
    Hello everybody. Welcome to The Long-Distance Worklife podcast. I am Wayne Turmel. Along with me is my co-host and copilot, Marisa Eikenberry.

    00:00:18:22 - 00:00:19:15
    Marisa
    Hi, everybody.

    00:00:20:09 - 00:00:41:23
    Wayne
    And this is the podcast. For those of you unfamiliar, where we're just trying to work our way through the world of long distance work, whether that's being a digital nomad, whether it's working from home full time or in the office some days or not, and bouncing back and forth. And it's a hybrid world. That's what we're doing today.

    00:00:41:23 - 00:00:47:01
    Wayne
    And Marisa chose today's topic and I am going to let her tell you what it is.

    00:00:47:23 - 00:01:03:14
    Marisa
    So at the time of recording this, we're celebrating the fourth anniversary of the book, The Long-Distance Leader, co-written by Kevin Eikenberry and my co-host Wayne Turmel. And we wanted to invite you into our celebration by hearing insights about the book straight from one of the authors. So, Wayne, if you're ready to dive in, I'm ready.

    00:01:04:00 - 00:01:08:11
    Wayne
    Yeah, it's always a little weird talking about your work, but I am happy to do it.

    00:01:09:11 - 00:01:19:09
    Marisa
    So one of the first things I wanted to start with is other than the obvious pandemic remote work surge, like what did you not expect to happen with remote work when you wrote the book?

    00:01:20:05 - 00:01:21:23
    Wayne
    You can't yadda yadd a third of the workforce

    00:01:23:19 - 00:01:24:02
    Marisa
    Fair.

    00:01:24:03 - 00:01:47:03
    Wayne
    For getting sent home. You can't do. It's like other than the invention of the telephone, what's changed in communication. The Long-Distance Leader and this is now the first of soon to be three books in the Long-Distance Worklife series. Long-Distance Leader came out in 2018.

    00:01:47:03 - 00:01:47:22
    Marisa
    Mm hmm.

    00:01:47:22 - 00:02:02:04
    Wayne
    And at the time, as I have explained to people who said, boy, you guys were in the right place at the right time, I felt a little bit like the crazy guy with the sandwich board walking up and down the street saying the end is nigh, man.

    00:02:02:13 - 00:02:21:13
    Wayne
    Now I just have a new sandwich board that says, "Told you." What has changed primarily and you can't discount this is that remote work was growing and it was growing at 30% a year, which is a lot.

    00:02:21:13 - 00:02:43:16
    Wayne
    Crazy high exponential growth. But what happened in 2020, of course, is that we got pushed across the Rubicon and all these people who said, well, we should have a policy and we should think about it and maybe we should experiment with remote work. And this is not a drill. This is real.

    00:02:44:00 - 00:02:44:10
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:02:44:22 - 00:02:54:18
    Wayne
    And some organizations went, yeah, okay. Because there was a lot of people doing what I call stealth remote work.

    00:02:55:04 - 00:02:56:10
    Marisa
    Okay. So what's that?

    00:02:56:22 - 00:03:06:12
    Wayne
    Stealth remote work was, "Where's Marisa today? Oh, her kid's sick. She's working from home. She'll take the conference call from home."

    00:03:07:03 - 00:03:07:12
    Marisa
    Okay.

    00:03:07:23 - 00:03:15:13
    Wayne
    Or somebody was working. I'm working on a project. It's impossible to get anything done in the office. I'm going to go home and work.

    00:03:15:22 - 00:03:16:06
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:03:17:03 - 00:03:21:21
    Wayne
    And a lot of organizations just pretended like this wasn't happening.

    00:03:23:09 - 00:03:24:00
    Marisa
    Hence the stealth.

    00:03:24:00 - 00:03:41:17
    Wayne
    I have a client, a big international company. And I remember distinctly walking through her office and her saying, "Wayne, I love you guys, but, you know, we don't do remote work. Everybody needs to come into the office." And I'm walking through the office and 50% of the desks empty.

    00:03:42:01 - 00:03:42:18
    Marisa
    Oh, my gosh.

    00:03:42:19 - 00:04:01:11
    Wayne
    They're obviously assigned. There's pictures of kids and cats and. Yeah, inflated birthday balloons. And I'm like, oh, so-and-so's in Denver today. So-and-so's kid was sick. If they are working and they are not at their desk, they are remote.

    00:04:01:11 - 00:04:01:23
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:04:01:23 - 00:04:16:18
    Wayne
    The organization had zero process in place for things like performance reviews and, you know, everything. Career path, everything was based on presence in the office.

    00:04:17:07 - 00:04:33:00
    Wayne
    Even though people weren't in the office and that was going on a lot. So what happened in 2020 is everybody got pushed out of the boat by a third of the workforce. And we have to remember it's only a third of the workforce.

    00:04:33:04 - 00:04:33:15
    Marisa
    Of course.

    00:04:34:05 - 00:05:04:04
    Wayne
    A third of the workforce suddenly found themselves in this situation. And the reactions, of course, ranged from what's the big deal? I've been doing this forever and I hear a lot of that. I hear a lot of people. And why is everybody so freaked out? Because I was doing this before the pandemic to oh, my gosh, we didn't think these jobs could ever be done remotely to I can't wait to get back in the office.

    00:05:04:09 - 00:05:04:18
    Marisa
    Yeah.

    00:05:05:15 - 00:05:17:07
    Wayne
    Right. So the big thing was this was building up, building up, building up. And then it happened. And fortunately for us, as, you know, mercenary weasel selling books.

    00:05:17:07 - 00:05:18:09
    Marisa
    Mm hmm.

    00:05:18:09 - 00:05:33:11
    Wayne
    We were there when that happened. And the response to Long-Distance Leader has been just overwhelmingly positive. And very encouraging. And of course, for our business, which is teaching.

    00:05:33:11 - 00:05:33:22
    Marisa
    Of course.

    00:05:33:22 - 00:05:37:13
    Wayne
    Stuff, that's not a bad thing either.

    00:05:37:20 - 00:05:55:15
    Marisa
    Right. So so with that, I know that in the book you guys have best practices and you have models and. Has anything from the book changed since you've written it? Anything that was a best practice. But maybe now that more people are remote, it's a little different.

    00:05:56:09 - 00:06:08:10
    Wayne
    I, I think what's happened with the book is the general principles are pretty solid. We wrote the book intentionally to be evergreen.

    00:06:08:17 - 00:06:09:03
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:06:09:07 - 00:06:19:16
    Wayne
    Right. But some things have happened. I mean, one of the things in the book is we're telling people, use your webcam, use your webcam, use your webcam, because there was a lot of resistance.

    00:06:19:16 - 00:06:20:06
    Marisa
    Yes.

    00:06:20:06 - 00:06:39:14
    Wayne
    And then Zoom came along. And it's fascinating from a watching technology thing. Right. Because Zoom went from this free niche product that nobody in corporate America was using to a verb, to a syndrome in 18 months.

    00:06:39:22 - 00:06:40:11
    Marisa
    Right. Well.

    00:06:41:01 - 00:06:47:02
    Wayne
    People are already now people are already ditching Zoom for their internal things like Teams.

    00:06:47:13 - 00:06:47:22
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:06:48:06 - 00:07:00:14
    Wayne
    Slightly different things. So use your camera. Use your camera. Use your camera. Now, people are on meetings from morning till night and they're suffering Zoom fatigue. And that's a very real thing.

    00:07:00:21 - 00:07:01:11
    Marisa
    Of course.

    00:07:01:18 - 00:07:14:22
    Wayne
    So the message is still use your camera a lot because it's a really good idea and use your head. Right. If you're one of 17 people on a meeting, nobody needs to watch you eat your sandwich.

    00:07:15:06 - 00:07:17:23
    Marisa
    Right. But one on one, you'll definitely want to turn it on.

    00:07:18:02 - 00:07:37:02
    Wayne
    The more the communication needs to be rich, the more it adds value. And it's just it's like everything else. Use your head when it adds value to it. And, you know, I just got back from the gym is a pretty lame excuse. If it's just you and a coworker. Right?

    00:07:37:02 - 00:07:40:05
    Marisa
    Right. Yeah. But if it's a full team meeting, a little different.

    00:07:40:17 - 00:07:53:06
    Wayne
    Exactly. So, you know, the the kind of it went it's shot way past use your webcam, to is it okay if we don't use our webcam sometimes?

    00:07:53:14 - 00:07:54:02
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:07:54:09 - 00:08:16:02
    Wayne
    So that was one thing that certainly happened. The other thing and again, it's a matter of degree and intentionality is we were we in the book talk a lot about how you need to be connected and rich communication. And what happened was people just automatically defaulted to the Web meeting.

    00:08:17:01 - 00:08:17:20
    Marisa
    Okay. Yep.

    00:08:19:02 - 00:08:32:08
    Wayne
    And it used to be in the glorious before times. One of the reasons you went home is so you got left alone to do your work. Right now, I'm point is that I'm in meetings back to back to back to back?

    00:08:32:21 - 00:08:34:14
    Marisa
    Yeah. When am I supposed to get my work done?

    00:08:34:21 - 00:08:43:14
    Wayne
    Yeah. And people are struggling with this. And so they as the pendulum always does, it's swinging to, well, we're going to have no me, no meetings Fridays.

    00:08:43:21 - 00:08:46:15
    Marisa
    Right. Yeah. We've been seeing a lot of articles about that lately.

    00:08:46:16 - 00:08:48:08
    Wayne
    That's fabulous for Friday.

    00:08:49:12 - 00:08:51:01
    Marisa
    What about Monday through Thursday?

    00:08:51:01 - 00:08:57:05
    Wayne
    And all the meetings that were going to happen on Friday and how you're shoehorning them into Monday through Thursday.

    00:08:57:13 - 00:09:00:06
    Marisa
    So Friday suddenly gets very stressful.

    00:09:01:01 - 00:09:31:23
    Wayne
    Exactly. So I think we are both blessed and intentionally so because the book was intended to be evergreen and I think it holds up pretty well. There are a couple of things that maybe we should reword, things like use your webcam and when you meet the like that. But I think overall it stands up pretty well and that's certainly the feedback that we're getting.

    00:09:32:10 - 00:09:46:23
    Marisa
    Yeah, absolutely. One of the other things I wanted to talk about and so, you know, you called The Long-Distance Leader, The Long-Distance Teammate. We are The Long-Distance Worklife. Why 'long-distance' as opposed to some of the other terms we see in remote work?

    00:09:48:21 - 00:09:58:19
    Wayne
    Because the language changes really quickly. And so rather than hook on to whatever we're using in the zeitgeist at this moment, when we didn't just invent our own darn word.

    00:09:59:16 - 00:10:00:09
    Marisa
    That's fair.

    00:10:01:12 - 00:10:04:14
    Wayne
    It's like it won't go out of style because it's ours, darn it.

    00:10:06:15 - 00:10:28:02
    Wayne
    You know, if you look at, for example, in 2018, when The Long-Distance Leader came out, the government was investing a buttload of money and still are. And people can say what they want about government work. But there were a lot of people giving thought to this even before the pandemic. But it was called telework or tele, right?

    00:10:29:02 - 00:10:47:14
    Wayne
    That was the word. And then suddenly nobody was using it. And then everybody was using remote. Well, you know, the whole idea of long distance is that it covers time, space and dimension. Right. It's not just physical separation. It's time zones. It's flexibility.

    00:10:48:08 - 00:10:48:17
    Marisa
    Yes.

    00:10:49:01 - 00:11:10:18
    Wayne
    Time flexing and and those types of things. So, I mean, it's it's a word we could brand around it. If you were being completely cynical and honest, you know, in the interest of full, transparent. See, to our viewers, these are the kind of decisions you make when you're writing a book. But it turned out to be a pretty good one.

    00:11:11:12 - 00:11:11:19
    Marisa
    Yeah.

    00:11:12:09 - 00:11:37:11
    Wayne
    As we move towards a more hybrid kind of thing, as we move towards a hybrid working arrangement, the point is that some of the people are going to be further away than others. And that might mean just far enough that you only come into the office a day or two a week. So the long commute doesn't really hurt as much to being on the other side of the planet.

    00:11:37:20 - 00:11:46:13
    Marisa
    Yeah, we're seeing a lot of digital nomads. I know there was even a digital nomad conference meet up something recently. I know those are happening all over the place.

    00:11:46:13 - 00:11:49:16
    Wayne
    Irony of that. The irony of that is lost on nobody.

    00:11:49:16 - 00:11:53:07
    Marisa
    I realize. But yeah, I mean, they.

    00:11:53:09 - 00:11:56:11
    Wayne
    Let's all get together to talk about how we can be anywhere and do this.

    00:11:56:22 - 00:12:12:08
    Marisa
    Well. And I can't think of the country right now, but I know there was a news story that came out recently about a country that's giving digital nomad visas. And I'm sure as more countries kind of hop onto that, there's probably going to be even more of these digital nomad long distance.

    00:12:13:00 - 00:12:27:14
    Wayne
    It's happening a lot depending on where you are in the world. Costa Rica, some of the smaller countries in Europe, like Luxembourg and Andorra are doing this. You know, it kind of makes some sense.

    00:12:27:14 - 00:12:35:02
    Marisa
    Right. So what is one takeaway that you hope that everyone gets by reading this book?

    00:12:37:03 - 00:13:00:06
    Wayne
    Okay. You have to be careful what you wish for. Okay. In this world, when you put a book out, it gets reviewed and people come back. And we were very intentional that one of the most important rules that you had to bear in mind and it was, you know, we have these 19 rules, which is really 18, because rule number 19 is, remember, rule number one.

    00:13:00:16 - 00:13:01:00
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:13:02:02 - 00:13:06:23
    Wayne
    And rule number one was think leadership first, location second.

    00:13:07:08 - 00:13:07:18
    Marisa
    Yes.

    00:13:09:00 - 00:13:45:22
    Wayne
    And the whole point of that is, yes, it's different. And yes, you need to be very much more mindful about how you communicate and when you communicate how technology plays a role in that. But at the end of the day, good leaders demonstrate good leadership behaviors, and that makes it easier to cross these these barriers. And one of actually really the only major criticism of the book was, well, this is just the leadership.

    00:13:46:02 - 00:13:49:03
    Wayne
    We know all this stuff.

    00:13:49:03 - 00:13:49:15
    Marisa
    Okay.

    00:13:50:05 - 00:14:19:05
    Wayne
    And that's actually fair. I mean, Kevin and I had a fair amount of discussion about how much of this general leadership thought do we put into this book that is specifically about remote. And by the way, we have the same conversation about The Long-Distance Teammate and the new book, which is coming out in February. The Long-Distance Team is a lot of it is just team building, being part of a team one on one.

    00:14:19:22 - 00:14:33:15
    Wayne
    But what's I think what's important is that it is easy to get hung up on the differences. It's easy to get hung up on what's changed and forget what's really important.

    00:14:34:21 - 00:14:38:05
    Marisa
    Yeah, forget that some of those leadership principles don't change.

    00:14:38:19 - 00:15:00:21
    Wayne
    Yeah. And, you know, that is really critical. I mean, there are three things and we don't talk about this in the books specifically, but there are three things that make a remote team work. Number one is there needs to be a mission. We need to follow the mission. Right. Number two is that there needs to be accountability.

    00:15:01:04 - 00:15:01:11
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:15:01:20 - 00:15:06:12
    Wayne
    And number three is you need to leverage the technology at your disposal.

    00:15:07:08 - 00:15:08:00
    Marisa
    Absolutely.

    00:15:08:06 - 00:15:16:11
    Wayne
    And those things need to happen. But it all starts with what's the vision? Well, that's all leadership stuff.

    00:15:16:13 - 00:15:24:06
    Marisa
    Yeah. I was going to say a lot of what you're saying, I mean, even leverage the technology, like even that could be said about people who stay in the office. Right.

    00:15:24:06 - 00:15:35:10
    Wayne
    But accountability is management stuff. There's leadership type stuff. There's management stuff because all managers are leaders, but not all leaders are managers.

    00:15:35:12 - 00:15:35:23
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:15:36:19 - 00:15:52:17
    Wayne
    Or at least should be. And then there's the technology piece. Right. And there are teams that run very low tech and are highly successful. There are teams with all of the tools in the world that can't find her, but with both hands.

    00:15:53:04 - 00:15:53:11
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:15:55:01 - 00:16:15:01
    Wayne
    That's the highly technical, professional way of explaining it. And so I think that the criticism that there's a lot of general leadership stuff in the book and, you know, I think a lot of people who read books like this or read a lot of books like this, of course.

    00:16:16:07 - 00:16:19:10
    Marisa
    Yeah. You don't just read one and say, oh, I know everything about this topic. Now.

    00:16:19:17 - 00:16:23:21
    Wayne
    And generally, leadership nerds tend to read leadership books.

    00:16:24:04 - 00:16:24:13
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:16:25:04 - 00:16:32:15
    Wayne
    And so, yes, you have heard a lot of this before. Now, if you look around the world and say, are people doing it?

    00:16:33:17 - 00:16:34:07
    Marisa
    Yeah. So my.

    00:16:34:07 - 00:16:36:02
    Wayne
    Dialog. Different conversation.

    00:16:37:06 - 00:16:37:16
    Marisa
    Yes.

    00:16:38:19 - 00:17:09:01
    Wayne
    But yeah. So I think that is the and that's the thing about the book is that it's going to help stay evergreen because those leadership behaviors don't change. And yes, you know, the book was written presold. I mean, Zoom literally isn't in the book. Right. When we wrote Long-Distance Teammate, the first draft was in before the pandemic.

    00:17:09:11 - 00:17:13:20
    Wayne
    But the second draft the world had already shut down.

    00:17:14:05 - 00:17:17:07
    Marisa
    Oh, wow. I'm not sure I realized that.

    00:17:17:07 - 00:17:22:10
    Wayne
    Well, the first draft was finished first in January of 2020.

    00:17:22:15 - 00:17:23:08
    Marisa
    Yeah.

    00:17:23:08 - 00:17:30:12
    Wayne
    And then we send it out and we get the notes and we come back and we have to do the second draft that happened in March.

    00:17:31:04 - 00:17:32:14
    Marisa
    Oh, my gosh.

    00:17:32:23 - 00:17:52:18
    Wayne
    Well, in between it's like, okay, do we talk about the pandemic? Do we reference it? Zoom is suddenly a thing. There was no mention of Zoom. We intentionally tried to avoid brand names and specific technologies. We talk about meeting platforms. Right. To this tool or that tool.

    00:17:53:00 - 00:17:53:09
    Marisa
    Right.

    00:17:54:23 - 00:18:09:03
    Wayne
    And so because we made those decisions, generally speaking, it holds up pretty well, as evidenced by the fact that the last two years the book has sold almost identical number of copies year over year.

    00:18:09:03 - 00:18:11:15
    Marisa
    Yeah. People still need that stuff.

    00:18:11:15 - 00:18:29:07
    Wayne
    Which in any book is a rare and beautiful thing. So we are extremely grateful. Absolutely. And now, of course, there's Long-Distance Teammate which is from the teammates point of view, because one of the big questions is how do we form relationships and how do we.

    00:18:29:22 - 00:18:32:08
    Marisa
    Yeah, I'm not a leader, but how do I do things?

    00:18:32:14 - 00:18:55:12
    Wayne
    So that's what Long-Distance Teammate is. And now that we are coming out of the pandemic to some degree and everybody's going, what's next? We literally on Friday submitted the final manuscript for the Long-Distance Team, which is about taking a step back and saying, if we were building this team from scratch, what would it look like?

    00:18:55:20 - 00:19:00:05
    Marisa
    Right. And reminds me, I know it's coming out next year, but when as a.

    00:19:00:05 - 00:19:02:18
    Wayne
    Contract, February 28th, give or take.

    00:19:03:01 - 00:19:26:07
    Marisa
    Perfect. So put that on your calendar, folks. Wayne, I wanted to thank you so much for this conversation. I mean, I know that Long-Distance Leader has changed a bunch of lives, a bunch of companies as people read it and and do the practices in it. I also wanted to thank you, audience members, for listening to the Long-Distance Worklife. For show notes, transcripts and other resources.

    00:19:26:07 - 00:19:42:06
    Marisa
    Make sure to visit longdistanceworklife.com if you haven't yet. Subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes while you're there. Be sure to like and review that helps our show reach more teammates and leaders just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes.

    00:19:42:11 - 00:20:13:15
    Marisa
    Let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to attack on a future episode. Lastly, if you're interested in purchasing The Long-Distance Leader, you can check out our website at longdistanceworklife.com/books for more information and links to purchase. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.


    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction and Welcome
    00:47 Celebrating The Long-Distance Leader's Anniversary
    01:09 The Unexpected Evolution of Remote Work
    02:21 Stealth Remote Work: Before It Was Mainstream
    05:05 The Impact of the Pandemic on Remote Work
    06:56 Best Practices: What’s Changed and What Hasn’t
    09:32 The Evergreen Nature of Leadership Principles
    12:12 The Choice of the Term "Long-Distance"
    16:38 Key Takeaway: Leadership First, Location Second

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

     Pre-Order
    The Long-Distance Leader
    Read More
    Guests, Leadership

    The CEO’s Guide to Thriving with a Global Remote Team with Anatoliy Labinskiy

    Remote leadership comes with its own set of challenges, especially when managing a global team. Anatoliy Labinskiy, CEO of GSM Growth Agency, shares his journey of building a successful remote company from the ground up. In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, Wayne Turmel delves into Anatoliy’s unique approach to fostering productivity, maintaining psychological safety, and navigating the complexities of international hiring. Whether you're leading a team or working remotely, Anatoliy’s strategies offer valuable lessons for thriving in today’s digital work environment.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Understanding Team Motivations: Anatoliy Labinskiy emphasizes the importance of aligning company goals with individual team members' personal aspirations. By understanding what drives each employee, leaders can foster a more motivated and committed workforce.
    2. Flexibility and Accountability: GSM Growth Agency operates without strict schedules, instead focusing on task completion and results. This flexible approach, combined with a commission-based compensation model, ensures that team members are accountable and driven to achieve their goals.
    3. Psychological Safety is Crucial: Creating an environment where remote employees feel safe to express concerns and challenges is vital. Anatoliy highlights the role of managers in maintaining psychological safety and supporting their team’s well-being.
    4. Data-Driven Management: Using data and KPIs to monitor performance allows leaders to proactively address issues and provide support where needed. This approach helps in maintaining high standards and quickly identifying areas that require attention.
    5. Challenges of International Hiring: Managing a global remote team comes with legal and tax complexities. However, the benefits of accessing a diverse talent pool far outweigh these challenges. Anatoliy suggests that focusing on skills and mentality rather than geographic location leads to better hiring decisions.
    6. Remote Work Evolution: The landscape of remote work is continually evolving, with companies increasingly adopting global teams. Anatoliy predicts that future regulations will likely adapt to this new reality, making it easier for businesses to operate internationally.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;17 - 00;00;39;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Long Distance Worklife, the podcast where we try to make sense and help you thrive, survive, generally keep the weasels at bay in the world of remote and hybrid work. And today we are going to take a slightly different approach than we often do. And in order to do that, I am going to bring in this week's guest, Anatoly Levinsky.

    00;00;39;04 - 00;00;45;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Anatoly is with GSM growth. Anatoly, how are you, sir?

    00;00;45;03 - 00;00;57;25
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah. I'm really great. I'm I'm happy to be here and excited to share my experience. Hopefully there at least one person on list, and then it'll be, like something useful for him.

    00;00;57;27 - 00;01;10;18
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. Exactly. Right. So help us, what is GSM growth? What do you do. And why are you kind of so happy to talk about remote work?

    00;01;10;21 - 00;01;49;02
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah, sure. Like basically we are advertise as an agency, GSM Growth Agency, where we are focusing on building advertising ecosystem for the Shopify brand owners by managing the Facebook, TikTok, Google, Snapchat, SMS, email marketing. So building the IC ecosystem machine for the brand owners in terms of advertising, and it's helping to increase long term inventory of of the customers and at the same time protecting if something happens to Facebook or TikTok or Google, other platforms are covering and like keeping going.

    00;01;49;09 - 00;02;08;15
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    So basically that's the main focus. We are what we are doing. We are doing that, since 2000, 17, in general on my stores, I started and after that, by the beginning of 2020, we opened the agency and done quite successfully in last couple of years, we generated over 33 million for customers in the profitable sales.

    00;02;08;18 - 00;02;46;15
    Wayne Turmel
    So clearly your company works and it works remotely. I know you're in Portugal this morning and you're going to be in Miami tomorrow, and I'm in Las Vegas. And isn't technology wonderful? But let's talk because on this show we usually talk to the individual contributor or the individual line manager. But a lot of organizations are struggling making remote work happen because the CEO isn't either, isn't 100% bought in or doesn't know how to support remote work effectively.

    00;02;46;15 - 00;03;04;09
    Wayne Turmel
    And that's the conversation I'd like to have with you. So why don't we start with, as the CEO of a company, what are the things about remote work specific that you are most concerned about?

    00;03;04;10 - 00;03;43;00
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah, sure. I would say like definitely remote work. We are like, we work on the top, quantity. It was 44 team members. Now we are around 35. And basically the main thing was for, understanding how to manage them, how to make sure that they are doing the work during the, like the remote, remote stay in remote year, like how to understand that they are not going to the refrigerator or watching Netflix and instead of doing the, specific, tasks and, we create the system, like, I create the system.

    00;03;43;00 - 00;04;06;24
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    At the beginning, when I had no managers, I had a couple of employers. And we start growing so fast in 2020 that I start, actually giving opportunities to the average worker to become a manager. And this is where we start growing as a company, and we start building the management system. Number one thing, which is, I believe on the remote work, very important is understanding what actually your team mates want.

    00;04;07;01 - 00;04;25;17
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Like I was doing mistake in the first half of the year. I was always sharing my vision. I'm with the CEO, I'm the founder, I have a vision where I want to bring the company, I know my why and I'm just sharing that why and that vision with my team. You know what? They agreed. But it doesn't mean that they agreed.

    00;04;25;17 - 00;04;29;18
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Actually, they agreed because I'm paying them for, you know, so of course they will do.

    00;04;29;21 - 00;04;32;12
    Wayne Turmel
    The job is smiling not at the boss.

    00;04;32;12 - 00;04;53;23
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Right, exactly. But after that, I decided to make the difference. And I started speaking to the top management. And like, guys, what's important for you? Where you want to be in couple of years? How you want to use the GSM to achieve your own goals. What's your actual goals? And this is where was the game changer in terms of management, the team.

    00;04;53;23 - 00;05;19;28
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Because when they start understanding what they want, we start moving forward to implement our possible, features in the company to achieve their goals. And by that being said, I start always using one quote. I use the GSM as a tool to achieve your own goals, and GSM will be great as well because if they tune their own goals means just how much you in their it's own as well.

    00;05;20;00 - 00;05;42;04
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    So basically it create extreme ownership for each individual person on that side of the phone, on that side of the zoom, from from the management side of implementing the things which need to be implemented and need to be done. And basically they motivated to train the other team members to make sure that they will achieve results, whatever it takes.

    00;05;42;06 - 00;06;01;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay. I'm going to stop you there. it clearly ownership is an important piece of this. Can you give me a specific example of something where your vision or what you wanted differed from what another person wanted and how you worked through that?

    00;06;01;26 - 00;06;23;13
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah, sure. It's not about human difference because, especially at the first years. Yeah. The first couple of years of the company, everyone had quite similar, targets, which is what financial targets to achieve. And basically, for me, I was creating the company without the basics. So it is all in the commission's. Why one of the part because it I was a startup.

    00;06;23;13 - 00;06;42;20
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Secondly, because it's a remote work. I don't want to pay anyone basics because I don't want what you I don't want like running behind him and asking, have you done that? Have you done that? He has a commission base. Every single team members have the commission base income. So if, he wants to get money this month, he need to complete the task.

    00;06;42;22 - 00;07;00;20
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    It's that simple. We don't have, like, 9 to 5. We don't have 2 to 12. We don't have that. We have like, hey, like, this is the task. So it has to be done in one hour. It has to be done before I know the day before the end of the week and the tasks are done because like if it's not done, there is a questions what's happen?

    00;07;00;22 - 00;07;26;19
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    And basically like we create the financial matrix where we seen all those, like metrics and create the KPIs to the metrics of achievements of every single media buyer, every single salesperson manager. And after that, when we see that somewhere the numbers are going slightly down from the the record requirements, we can understand that something emotionally, mentally could be wrong or just person quit or whatever.

    00;07;26;21 - 00;07;43;10
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    And that's why we start working on the psychological part, which is we really care. We start our management, start, reaching out instantly when they see that, okay, in the last couple of days, metrics are down. What's happening? They reaching out and asking, hey, like, is everything okay? You know.

    00;07;43;16 - 00;08;16;15
    Wayne Turmel
    So I you said a couple of things there that I think we need to we need to make sure that we address. One of them is just systematic, the notion of and whether somebody is on base plus commission or whatever or whatever the metrics are based on outcomes, they're not based on behavior, right? Whether somebody spends 12 hours a day at their keyboard or five hours a day, it's measured by output, right?

    00;08;16;15 - 00;08;43;28
    Wayne Turmel
    It's measured by did you make the sales or the deals being closed, whatever that defining the metrics is really important. The second thing is less systemic, and you kind of glossed over it, but I think it's important. And that is the notion of the psychological safety and managers having their radar up to know that something is up.

    00;08;44;01 - 00;09;07;06
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah. the that's like that's kind of right there. Because before last one and half, two years, we were running without those metrics. I had my own Excel sheets and I was completely understanding what is happening. But, you know, when you start growing and we start getting like, 20, 40 clients plus I cannot be in every single case instantly.

    00;09;07;11 - 00;09;33;01
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Like, we have weekly trainings, weekly calls going through the cases and basically like, building these structures with our CMO or with our, like, management and understanding where it will go. But I cannot be in every single chart. I cannot be everywhere. which just means like we need simplicity of understanding where we are right now and basically what this kind of financial model helps you understand.

    00;09;33;01 - 00;09;52;19
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Like, in general manager, in his team. What's happening in there? Then you can look every single team member, his numbers, and then every single team members. You can look on his list of the clients to understand where exactly he sucks. So yeah, if it's going in average, everywhere bad or like in average all good to no questions.

    00;09;52;19 - 00;10;18;06
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    So just pushing forward data performance giving some kind of bonuses, giving them some kind of, challenges. This is perfect thing in the remote challenges. like monthly challenge, the weekly challenge we can challenge, like whatever it is. And basically they it make fun and to deliver better results. But when things are really bad now we can see that before we were guessing like, hey, like what's happening?

    00;10;18;06 - 00;10;36;10
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    The client is wrong. You know, there is always excuses on the remote and not even the remote in the office. Yeah, that is the client. Oh, do not you know that this is what's happened? He's not replying. But but it's. And when we see the metrics we directly like and address like what's happening, like we, manager check the team chats, the chats are okay.

    00;10;36;16 - 00;11;02;26
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    And then after that, we find out his mother in the hospital. He broke up with the girlfriend. He just moving from one apartment to another. And that's why, like, we keep an emotional statement between the management and the team players in the way where they trust in and respect in the management and if anything happening, they try to address instantly or if something sensitive as a mother in the hospital or break especially.

    00;11;02;29 - 00;11;30;28
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    But each of the relationships is kind of sensitive, which they're like, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm fine. But at the end, yeah. You know, I just broke like, relationship of two years, couple of days ago. Oh, okay. And manager start speaking as a human to human, not about the work. Helping him to overtake the depression. Not because, like, we need him at work, obviously, we need, but because, like, we respect their life and we want to help them to become better.

    00;11;31;03 - 00;11;50;22
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    And that's usually helping. And the guys only mode, they are, well, you know, we are lonely. It's online world. We are alone. Everyone sitting in their offices, cabinets, rooms and like, nobody speaks. And here is someone from another part of the world and saying to yourself and then like, asking you questions and giving you suggestions, it means a lot.

    00;11;50;25 - 00;12;13;22
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    It's really means a lot that someone cares. And sometimes even, you know, like, when new team member coming to us, we even can the, like, send some gift, some, like, a video from my site welcoming and so on to just let person understanding that we are a team. Doesn't matter if you don't have office. We are just like next to you.

    00;12;13;22 - 00;12;15;14
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    We are here to be with you.

    00;12;15;15 - 00;12;22;08
    Wayne Turmel
    Couple of. And again, you're drawing so many things out. I'm trying desperately to capture.

    00;12;22;08 - 00;12;25;14
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    The short sorry.

    00;12;25;16 - 00;12;46;27
    Wayne Turmel
    I'm trying to make sure that we we capture some nuts and bolts that that folks can listen to you. And there's a couple of things in that last piece. the first is what is the sweet spot for remote control for remote employees? How many direct reports do your managers have?

    00;12;47;00 - 00;13;11;02
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah. I would say, first of all, the sweet spot is the flexibility. when I said that we don't have a schedule first three years, we didn't have the day off. We didn't have days off. So the team has been built on my personal, mentality and basically, of course, everyone getting rest. But if something happened, even for 2 a.m., they were waking up and doing whatever need to be done.

    00;13;11;09 - 00;13;40;01
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    So basically what I want to say that, what's affect a lot on the, on the implementing and moving forward with our rules, our company rules, is that we giving you flexibility. You have a laptop, and you, you're supposed to be on time on the course. You're supposed to be, take the, action fast. And our teammates travel in Mexico, Dubai, Bali, Poland, Ukraine, the United States.

    00;13;40;05 - 00;13;41;22
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay, but the question.

    00;13;41;25 - 00;13;43;00
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Is your lifestyle.

    00;13;43;03 - 00;14;02;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, okay. And that's fabulous, right? Is flexible lifestyle. So 9 to 5 is an option. First of all, because 9 to 5 doesn't matter when you're around the world. But how many direct reports does each manager have? What have you found to be a good number for that.

    00;14;02;00 - 00;14;29;19
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah. So, like, every single manager has approximately 5 to 7 teammates under their, each individual team, plus, like our sales department before was 15 people. It was hard to manage people, and it wasn't hard to manage. It was hard to manage to find out the right people. So we are staying for last two and half years with five people in the sales team, and it's freaking sick team because they already know well the product.

    00;14;29;24 - 00;14;53;22
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    They love the company and they sustainable. Nobody got fired them because they are delivering nobody like leaving us because nobody wants to leave our company since like all the benefits we should provide. And so basically in average, if you look on every single department, it's 5 to 7 teammates under. And those teammates has their own juniors. Usually it's one so like that.

    00;14;53;28 - 00;15;11;25
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    So that's like how it works in the in the PR department. It's direct reporting to me. And Valeria for you were introduced to and like, there you are. She has a couple of the teammates who she is managing to make sure that the work is moving forward. So basically up to seven, 1 to 7.

    00;15;11;26 - 00;15;16;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, I like that 5 to 7 number. I think that's a manageable number.

    00;15;16;27 - 00;15;19;14
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Where it was exactly created for the.

    00;15;19;17 - 00;15;51;22
    Wayne Turmel
    People don't disappear. Right. Yeah. They they don't fall off the radar. The other thing is because you're working internationally and this is just, a functional thing, do you find challenges hiring people remotely in different countries? Have you had to decide not to hire somebody because they're in a geography or, you know, how do you handle the international aspect while making sure that you're obeying the laws and, you know, all that good stuff?

    00;15;51;29 - 00;16;18;20
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Oh, about the laws and taxes and so on. It was the biggest headaches. It was a really huge headache because we are American company and like it was quite a bit to understand how to make all the payouts right and so on. But, I would say the best talent, talented are around the world, like, really? Or even like I have friends who has physical offices, agencies in the United States, in Nashville, in Atlanta.

    00;16;18;26 - 00;16;43;05
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    But they have troubles to find out in Atlanta, the right talent in the Nashville, the right talent. So and they start hiring as well, remotely because, like, somewhere in Serbia is the perfect, like technical worker or something like that. And basically on my end, like, I'm Ukrainian and I have around 60, 70% of my teammates are Ukrainian and they're in different parts of the world, but they're in general Ukrainians.

    00;16;43;07 - 00;17;07;10
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    And like, we have as well Serbian. We have Sweden, we have, Argentina, Spain. So different, different countries, different, locations. And by that being said, we are not choosing what country he's in. We are choosing what skills does he have and if he is really good, has the right mentality because he has the best skills in the world.

    00;17;07;10 - 00;17;30;08
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    But the mentality, here in Boston, like, I will be teaching you what you mean and so on. So that person definitely won't be working with us in the company. So the right mentality, the right skills and doesn't matter what, geographical location he's in, we have from Pakistan, our, design, video editor designer in, Moldova right now.

    00;17;30;11 - 00;17;58;17
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    So like different countries. So there is no specific, location because we have like, you would know, call schedules according to the word wild. word wild. timing. Only one media buyer who moved to Bali. He is suffering a bit because he's 13 hours away from us. the like he has to switch a bit. This his schedule, but he want to live in Bali for some time, and it's his choice.

    00;17;58;17 - 00;18;24;17
    Wayne Turmel
    Are you finding that the. This is the last question, because, not surprisingly, our time has fled. are you finding that it's easier to overcome the taxes work visas thing? As time goes by, our countries becoming more consistent and kind of lenient with that? Or what do you what do you find it?

    00;18;24;20 - 00;18;46;21
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Yeah. So the work visa is not required because, like the all the guys are working on the remote like in every single company on remote, it's w eight form. So it's like third party contractors or they have their own LLCs. So it's like, against third party contractor, but with the, limited liability company, not not with the, person itself.

    00;18;46;24 - 00;19;21;11
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    And regarding the taxes. Yeah. Like we have just to follow all the, like, everything what is required from our site, according to the country where we are, according to the, all the, the requirements of the IRS and, basically, like, I can say that it's going smooth, but I believe that it's supposed to be soon in the near future, maybe next five, ten, 20 years, that it will be something like a word while the regulations because like the word is never be, will be as before.

    00;19;21;11 - 00;19;58;27
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Never like all the companies are like worldwide right now because like you, it's mind blowing. When zoom became huge because of Covid, pure culture companies really is not about the remote work because some companies like this one India, some huge company companies, they need to be offline, but still they find out so many great talents from different countries quite easier, and they don't need to move them to us somewhere else and work in, open work and visa and so on by figure it out that it's possible to manage on the remote specific team members, even if you need to be offline.

    00;19;59;00 - 00;20;33;12
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    So what, like one of my friends in the huge agency, their turnover is like billions of dollars every single year in the cloud. Customers results. they are like hiring offline, online and, the top players online from remote. They bring once in a year to United States for the like gathering for brainstorming and so on. So basically they and they call in the abroad to a person who where they hired in him, like let's say in Serbia, in London, London guys hired in Serbia, hired in Spain hiring someone else.

    00;20;33;12 - 00;20;51;17
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    And they call in that as a London department. So basically you it's it sounds fancy, but it isn't. It's just the guy sitting in London, and now it's like, x, y is that agency in London? So it sounds cool. It's a matter of like, this is this is the real world in our these.

    00;20;51;20 - 00;21;16;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, it is the real world in our days. And the Anatoliy Lipinski from GSM, I want to thank you for giving me the CEOs vision of this. Right. What's going through their mind? Because, nothing works if it's not supported from the top. And you've given us some really good insight to that. Thank you so much for being with us today.

    00;21;16;01 - 00;21;28;13
    Anatoliy Labinskiy
    Thank you. Thank you again for having me here. And, if anyone has any questions or would like to reach out, you can easily text me in the Instagram Ecom by Anatoly. I'm always answering unknown DMs from my site.

    00;21;28;17 - 00;21;55;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and we will. In fact have links to Anatoly and GSM and, all of that good stuff on our website. The long distance work life.com. We have transcripts for each show. We have past episodes. So, do check that out. Of course. next week, Marissa will be back. We will have one of our own shows if you want to reach out with us.

    00;21;55;16 - 00;22;22;12
    Wayne Turmel
    To us with a question, a comment, a vicious personal attack, a show subject or somebody that we should talk to. just reach out to us on either LinkedIn or email. we love to have you with us. Couple of things we want to let you know, as of late September, we will have the second edition of our book, The Long Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership.

    00;22;22;20 - 00;22;51;21
    Wayne Turmel
    The second edition, updated for remote and hybrid work, is available end of September. It's actually available for preorder now. And if you would like to, learn some more skills to be a better remote later, please check out our long distance leadership series. It's on. Kevin, I can bury.com under virtual events. we would love to have you join us for now.

    00;22;51;21 - 00;23;14;05
    Wayne Turmel
    That's it. Thank you to Anatoly for, being with us. join us next week. Listen to our past episodes. I am not going to insult your intelligence by telling you to smash the like button, but if you want to push it gently and let everybody know that you like the show and subscribe, we would appreciate that. That's it.

    00;23;14;05 - 00;23;23;12
    Wayne Turmel
    My name is Wayne Trammell. Thank you for joining us on the Long Distance Work Life podcast. And don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.


    Featured Guest

    Anatoliy Labinskiy

    Name: Anatoliy Labinskiy

    Bio: Anatoliy Labinskiy is the CEO and founder of GSM Growth Agency, where he leads a fully remote team to build successful marketing ecosystems for Shopify brands, generating over $33 million in profitable sales. With a strong background in eCommerce and digital marketing, Anatoliy is known for his innovative approach to remote leadership and his focus on flexibility and accountability in the workplace.

    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    01:10 Overview of GSM Growth Agency and its Focus
    02:46 Challenges of Managing a Remote Team
    04:06 Aligning Company Goals with Employee Aspirations
    05:20 Building Accountability Through Flexibility and Commission-Based Pay
    08:44 Importance of Psychological Safety in Remote Teams
    09:43 Using Data and KPIs to Monitor and Improve Performance
    13:11 Flexibility and Managing Remote Teams Across Time Zones
    14:02 Optimal Number of Direct Reports for Effective Management
    15:51 Challenges of International Hiring and Legal Considerations
    18:24 Managing Taxes and Legalities for a Global Remote Team
    19:21 The Future of Remote Work and Global Regulations
    20:51 Final Thoughts on Supporting Remote Work from the Top

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

     Pre-Order
    The Long-Distance Leader
    Read More
    Cracking the Code of Workplace Culture with Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Guests, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

    Cracking the Code of Workplace Culture with Dr. Jessica Kriegel

    In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, Wayne Turmel sits down with Dr. Jessica Kriegel, Chief Scientist of Workplace Culture at Culture Partners, to explore the true essence of workplace culture. Dr. Kriegel challenges the common misconceptions that culture is all about perks like ping-pong tables, explaining instead how an adaptive culture—one that evolves with changing circumstances—is crucial for driving results. They discuss the pitfalls of trying to return to pre-pandemic office norms and why forward-thinking leadership that embraces the new realities of remote and hybrid work is essential for organizational success.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Understanding Culture: It’s not just “how we do things here” but a strategic tool to achieve organizational goals.
    2. Adaptive Culture: The most successful organizations are those that can adapt to change, as demonstrated by research.
    3. Post-Pandemic Work: The idea of “returning” to the office is flawed; instead, companies should focus on evolving.
    4. Creating Impactful Experiences: Culture is shaped by the experiences we create, whether in-person or virtual.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;03 - 00;00;34;01
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, everybody. Welcome. Welcome to the long distance work life. My name is Wayne Trammell. I am thrilled to be with you. This is the podcast to help you thrive. Survive, generally. Keep the weasels at bay in the crazy and constantly evolving world of remote and hybrid work. we have a really, really good show today. We are going.

    00;00;34;04 - 00;00;58;09
    Wayne Turmel
    We sadly do not have Marissa with us, but what that means is we get to meet somebody else. Really cool. And in this case, that person, I say bringing her into the room is Jessica Kriegel, who is the brains behind Culture Partners and Jessica. who are you and what does culture Partners do? And then we'll get into our conversation.

    00;00;58;12 - 00;01;19;18
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Well, thank you for having me. I am Doctor Jessica Kriegel. I'm the chief scientist of workplace culture at Culture Partners and Culture Partners. As a workplace culture consulting firm that is focused on helping organizations drive results. That's what we do. We help companies get the results that they're trying to achieve. And the way that we go about doing that is through activating their culture.

    00;01;19;20 - 00;01;44;23
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay, so there are about four things that you said there that worthy of diving in. And I'm going to start with the one that kind of catches people off guard, which is the idea that you are the culture scientist. Yes. Other than working for Dannon yogurt, I do not know that I have ever met a culture scientist before, so what the heck you want?

    00;01;44;24 - 00;01;51;18
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    I have not heard the yogurt metaphor or analogy to my title before. That's a good one.

    00;01;51;21 - 00;01;54;10
    Wayne Turmel
    so what the heck does a culture scientist do?

    00;01;54;11 - 00;02;20;06
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    He asks. Yeah. I mean, my job is to research best practices in what gets results and culture is, you know, let's start there. Because so many people view culture as something that's touchy feely or woowoo and ultimately it's deeply misunderstood because people are trying to solve culture issues with ping pong tables and virtual pizza parties, and those things are fun.

    00;02;20;06 - 00;02;43;02
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Maybe if you like those things, but they're not culture. We view culture as the way that people think and act to get results. So as a scientist of culture, my job is to understand how do we get people to think and act in the way that we need them to think and act in order to get results? That works for them and works for the company over the long term.

    00;02;43;05 - 00;02;57;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of definitions of culture. The one that I usually work with is this is how we do it here, right? Right. And how we do it somewhere else, which is different than somebody else does it. But what is the it.

    00;02;58;00 - 00;03;18;21
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Right. The reason this is how we do it here is I don't know how to scale. This is how we do it here or how to shift. This is how we do it here. That gets us pretty stuck into one kind of culture. And we did research last year with Stanford University to help finish answering that question about how do we actually do the research?

    00;03;18;25 - 00;03;49;10
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    We partner with academic institutions and other organizations that are interested in this stuff. And last year with Stanford, we looked at what of all the different culture dimensions, which one actually wins to drive revenue growth? Just very simply, revenue growth is the focus in that particular study to show the results, orientation of this impact of this work. And what we found was an adaptive culture, was the kind of culture that always won the most for far above all other type of cultures.

    00;03;49;16 - 00;04;10;05
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    So an adaptive culture is not getting stuck in one culture. It's about being able to shift from one to the next and the next and pivoting when technology changes, when our circumstances change, when our competitive environment changes, that that is actually the skill is is not just choosing one and getting stuck in the way we do things around here.

    00;04;10;05 - 00;04;13;00
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    That can be a death knell for your culture.

    00;04;13;02 - 00;04;44;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, that, of course, leads us to the next thing, which is the big push back after Covid. Yeah, everybody got scattered to the winds and then they said, no, you're coming back in. And we're hearing more and more even from companies where you maybe don't expect it, like zoom, zoom, Google. In fact, the zoom is calling people into the office just drips with an irony that does not even begin to be described.

    00;04;44;03 - 00;05;06;24
    Wayne Turmel
    but the reason for that over and over and over again, we're told, is, well, we need to keep the company culture. And the only way to do that is to have people in the same building at the same time, at least part of the time. And I'm willing to bet that you probably view it differently.

    00;05;06;26 - 00;05;31;06
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Yeah. so think about the language that leaders are using to get people back to the office. Back right. Or we need to return to the office return. These are all backwards looking phrases that we need to use to go back to how it was before Covid. And for some organizations, they've been remote for a long time. I was an Oracle for ten years.

    00;05;31;06 - 00;05;55;13
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    I started in 2008 and I was working remotely. So this isn't just a Covid thing. This has been a slow transition that got accelerated due to Covid, but we cannot go back because to go back and to return to this way that it used to be inherent in that is the idea that Covid was simply a pause and that the pause has been unpause.

    00;05;55;18 - 00;06;19;12
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    And now we can go back to how it was before, as if Covid wasn't transformational to our social psychology, to the norms and behaviors of how we operate. We saw a different way. And you can't go back. You can't undo do this complete transformation of everything about the way that we work. Now. Some people will go back into the office because that's what they want to do, and they like it that way, and that's fine.

    00;06;19;14 - 00;06;38;13
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    But I think that those companies are failing to adapt. And I just told you that the culture that wins and gets the most results is the culture that can adapt and move forward. And if you're stuck and trying to go back, you're not working on that fundamental progress that needs to happen in any organization to innovate and grow.

    00;06;38;15 - 00;06;51;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. I mean, it's so funny. People misquote Darwin all the time. They always say it's survival of the fittest and it's not. It's the creature that learns to adapt is what survives. Right?

    00;06;51;22 - 00;06;53;25
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Did he really not say survival of the fittest?

    00;06;53;25 - 00;06;56;10
    Wayne Turmel
    He did not. He never used that phrase.

    00;06;56;12 - 00;06;58;27
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Wow. Who said that? Was it the. Who's the other.

    00;06;58;27 - 00;07;00;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Somebody that read him in the market?

    00;07;00;25 - 00;07;06;05
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    It was that other guy that also did evolution. Anyway, we're on a tangent, but that's fascinating. I gotta go double check that.

    00;07;06;05 - 00;07;22;07
    Wayne Turmel
    If that's when you get a couple of geeks together. This is the kind of conversation that you wind up having. Ladies, we can't go back to the before times and we can't write clearly the big concern, the thing that we hear is we're worried about culture and and.

    00;07;22;10 - 00;07;25;27
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Losing, you know, losing our culture. Have you heard.

    00;07;25;28 - 00;07;33;22
    Wayne Turmel
    Losing our culture like the before times was some glorious time where there were no problems and everything worked just fine?

    00;07;33;24 - 00;07;35;02
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Yeah.

    00;07;35;05 - 00;07;36;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah.

    00;07;36;05 - 00;07;57;12
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    I mean, like, where did the culture go? If we're losing it? I would love to know the island of lost cultures, you know? I mean, that doesn't even make any sense. So yes, the, the, the saying goes that if we don't get back to our together, we're going to lose our culture. What makes us who we are. And the reality is of cultures, the way that people think and act to get results.

    00;07;57;17 - 00;08;18;22
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Well, we're still thinking virtually and we're still acting virtually. So let me break down what we think culture really comes down to where it emerges and what it results in. So, you know, every company is trying to get results. Where do results come from? They come from our actions. We do stuff and that stuff produces a result right?

    00;08;18;24 - 00;08;42;07
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Our actions come from our beliefs. We have beliefs about the nature of the work we're doing, about what drives meaning in our lives, about whether it's worth it about each other. Right? Those beliefs are what drive our actions, and that is how we think. And so if you want to change how people think, their beliefs and their actions, then you have to create experiences for them.

    00;08;42;07 - 00;09;01;22
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Because all of our beliefs come from experiences that we've had. Why do I believe that you're a nice guy? It's because of the experience we had in our email exchanges and in the conversations we've had. Those experiences led me to a belief that took me to take an action, which is to join you today, and that's going to get you a result, which is an episode that people will listen to right now.

    00;09;01;29 - 00;09;22;17
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    And the episode that result is an experience, too, that they're having that will lead them to a belief about the nature and power of working from home and culture or not. Right. And that's going to lead them to take an action and that's going to get a result. And so it's the cycle. That's culture. So it really if you want to influence culture, you start at the experience level.

    00;09;22;17 - 00;09;42;09
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    What experiences can I create for people. And virtually getting an email is an experience. Getting a text message is an experience. Having a zoom call is an experience. Just like bumping into someone in the hallway was an experience. Having lunch at the cafeteria was an experience. But the experiences don't stop just because we're doing it in a different format.

    00;09;42;12 - 00;10;02;11
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    And the kindness that you show me in those virtual experiences lead to a belief, or the bitterness, or the short nature of your emails or texts or whatever, all of that. We just have to be intentional of the experiences we create, no matter what the delivery mechanism of that experience is.

    00;10;02;13 - 00;10;26;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay, so before you continue, because I know we pulled the string in your back and and you're off and that's great. We dig that. But you said something that I think we need to highlight and that is this notion of experience. And there are two parts to this. The first is if your experience with somebody is purely transactional.

    00;10;26;27 - 00;10;40;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Hey, can you send me that file? Here it is. If their experience is purely transactional, it's not going to create a bond, a relationship, a psychological emotional connection.

    00;10;40;05 - 00;10;40;24
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Exactly.

    00;10;40;25 - 00;11;11;03
    Wayne Turmel
    They have with people. Right. So we need to crank that up and have different types of experiences. But let's talk about the word experi sense. what do we need to be aware of? What kind of experiences? Virtually do we need to do that maybe used to happen organically, or at least unconsciously, when we were all in the same mosh pit.

    00;11;11;05 - 00;11;38;13
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    It's all about coming from the heart in the experiences that you create and doing it, doing it intentionally. So some examples of experiences that happen virtually is me calling you and recognizing you for something that you've done, giving you feedback, either positive feedback or constructive feedback about some thing that happened. Telling you a story about something that you weren't even involved in that someone else did that was really wonderful.

    00;11;38;19 - 00;12;01;06
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    That's an experience. Last night, you know, I got this big interview this week for my show, and I was really proud of it, and I did a lot of work to make it go well. And last night my boss called me he that the show got released yesterday and he called me and said, I just listened to the interview and I took notes and I want to share them with you.

    00;12;01;06 - 00;12;25;24
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    And he spent 20 minutes basically reading me his notes about all of his favorite parts and why that was powerful and what he thought was a good question. And it was all positive feedback. And at the end he was like, so that's what I thought the the time and attention and thoughtfulness that he took to give me that feedback was so impactful because it was an experience that like, wow, he really cares about the work that I do.

    00;12;25;27 - 00;12;44;25
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    He could have just as easily sent a text that said, great interview, exclamation point, exclamation point, and I would have felt good, but it didn't go the extra mile that he took. Both of them were virtual, right? But it's about coming from the heart and giving someone an experience in the way you communicate with them.

    00;12;44;28 - 00;13;00;25
    Wayne Turmel
    And you said something again, you know, there are micro cultures and macro cultures. There's micro culture of your specific team. There's the macro culture of your organization. This simple way to kind of divide it.

    00;13;00;27 - 00;13;01;07
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Yeah.

    00;13;01;14 - 00;13;34;00
    Wayne Turmel
    My experience and maybe you can speak to this. My experience is it is fairly easy for an individual team to intentionally form a culture. The nuclear team is very much like the nuclear family, right? There's mom, dad and the kids. Yeah, and they're a tight unit. But inside the larger organization, the interactions don't always happen virtually. They don't experience each other the way they do when they share an office space and they're bumping into people.

    00;13;34;02 - 00;13;50;12
    Wayne Turmel
    So can you. We'll just step aside from the micro culture for a moment. How do you intentionally or what kind of experiences can you create to help influence the macro culture, as opposed to just your particular team?

    00;13;50;14 - 00;14;19;17
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Yeah, that's a great question. And that's really what we do with our clients. So, you know, most culture consultants, they go into a company and they start by digging up all of the dirt. So they interview people and they do focus groups and they do surveys. And they're asking what's broken here, what doesn't work? And then they come up with a list of 20 things that they found, and then they present this list to the executives and say, well, here's everything that's broken that needs to be fixed, and we can do that for you for the low, low price of $5 million or whatever it is.

    00;14;19;17 - 00;14;42;26
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Right. And so we don't do that. We start with, what result do you want to achieve? What is the goal? Give me a key result. We call them, which is a meaningful, measurable, memorable number that you want to achieve. And then let's reverse engineer that number to figure out what beliefs people need to hold in order to take the right action to get that result.

    00;14;42;29 - 00;15;12;25
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    And once you understand those beliefs and you're really explicit about them, you label them and you identify what they mean. Then you intentionally create experiences across all levels of the organization to drive those beliefs. So, for example, at Culture Partners, we have a cultural belief of taking accountability. That's one belief we know needs to be held in order for people to take the right action for us to get our result, which is we want to impact 5 million lives in 2025.

    00;15;12;25 - 00;15;40;01
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    It's a measurable number. It's meaningful and it's memorable 5 in 25. So we know people need to take accountability. So we recognize when people do take accountability and we give feedback to people when they're not taking accountability. And we tell stories about taking accountability and always tying what the action was that they did to that belief of taking accountability and reinforcing that that's going to help us get to five and 25.

    00;15;40;04 - 00;16;05;21
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    So we're being explicit in our language about the things that are usually implicit. Whereas usually feedback looks like great job on that presentation here. He says. In this presentation you did x, y, and Z. By doing that, you demonstrated the belief of take accountability, and that's going to help us get to five and 25. And so it's a self reinforcing system that we help organizations implement at the macro level.

    00;16;05;27 - 00;16;15;05
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    And everyone owns culture in that way because everyone is responsible to use the tools to reinforce the explicit cultural beliefs to get the results.

    00;16;15;07 - 00;16;35;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay. Can you give me a I'm sure you can. Will you give me a specific example of something that an organization did to kind of expand that across divisions, across functions, something very specific?

    00;16;35;22 - 00;17;00;26
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Yes. We are working with a medical institution. And this, the client was the director of the emergency department. And there we said, what's the result? You want it? We always start with results. Right? And they said, we only gather next of kin information for incoming patients 42% of the time. We need to collect it every time. So we looked at the action was people were not filling out the form.

    00;17;00;26 - 00;17;24;13
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    So she had tried already to fix that number. Through a bunch of actions, she would try translating the form, simplifying the form, training people on the form. She'd actually spent six months on this, and after six months, she was able to increase the gathering of the form to 47%, which is like 5% growth barely moved the needle. Six months of effort shifting the shift schedule to get people out of work to do the training.

    00;17;24;13 - 00;17;42;01
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    It was a laborious project and it cost money and it barely worked. So the belief we were like, what's the belief getting in the way? She's like the belief that these people have is that it's a waste of their time. They're trying to save lives. People come in in emergency situations and I'm trying to get them to stop and do paperwork.

    00;17;42;01 - 00;18;12;07
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    Like it just doesn't feel important. Right. And the experience that they were having was nag, nag, nag, do the paperwork. And there is generally tension in the health care community around patient experience and data entry. Right? That's not an uncommon issue. So we helped her identify stories in this case where the experience that she could use to create a new belief, and she told two true stories from that emergency department of patients that had come in.

    00;18;12;07 - 00;18;32;04
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    One was a woman. She was, in an emergency situation came in. They did not gather her next of kin information. They treated her when she fell unconscious, but she died. They later found out that she had had a, a condition that if they had known about by calling the next of kin, they might have adjusted the protocol and been able to save her.

    00;18;32;07 - 00;18;55;23
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    The second patient, different time, same hospital came in. They did gather as next of kin information. He fell unconscious. They called the daughter. The daughter informed them about his medications, and they adjusted protocol and they saved his life. She told those two stories for three weeks, and in three weeks they started gathering next of kin information. 97% of the time the belief changed.

    00;18;55;25 - 00;19;08;01
    Dr. Jessica Kriegel
    This is important. This is part of the process of saving lives. It's not just paperwork. And they started taking a new action. That's culture creation in action at scale.

    00;19;08;03 - 00;19;35;29
    Wayne Turmel
    That is fabulous. doctor Jessica Kriegel, thank you so, so much for being with us on the long distance work life. If you are interested, ladies and gentlemen, in contacting Jessica culture. partners. Partners, listening to the Culture Leader podcast, we will have links to all of that good stuff in our show notes at Long distance work life.

    00;19;35;29 - 00;20;01;29
    Wayne Turmel
    Dot com. Jessica, thank you so much for being with us. And ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, thank you. If you enjoyed today's conversation. And I can't believe, frankly, that you didn't, you know, like and subscribe. You know how podcasts work. We're trying to grow our listenership. You we want to find more smart people like you who want to, learn how to do this better.

    00;20;02;02 - 00;20;28;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Also, on the subject of doing it better, shameless plug time. September 17th is the publication date for the new edition of The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership. the original came out in 2018. The world has changed since then. Our book is new. It's exciting. We talk about culture. We talk about hybrid teams.

    00;20;28;29 - 00;20;58;13
    Wayne Turmel
    Please, please, please, wherever you get your books from. And of course, there is, a place you can find all of this. Our, long distance leadership series of classes. We have a new one that begins in late September. You can find that at Kevin eikenberry.com/lds, LDS, less LDS is a very different thing. no judgment. It's just a different thing.

    00;20;58;13 - 00;21;25;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Darn it. if you want to reach out to myself or to Marissa, show ideas, guest ideas, questions, pet peeves, things you'd like us to, talk about and discuss on the show. We are easy to find. Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. We will be back next week with another episode. This time, Marissa and I will be there.

    00;21;25;11 - 00;21;30;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Thanks for joining us on the long distance work life. Don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.


    Featured Guest

    Name: Dr. Jessica Kriegel

    Bio: Jessica Kriegel is the Chief Scientist of Workplace Culture for Culture Partners, leading research and strategy in best practices for driving results through culture. For 15+ years, Jessica has been guiding global, national, Fortune 100, and other organizations across finance, technology, real estate, and healthcare industries on the path to creating intentional cultures that accelerate performance. As a keynote speaker, Jessica leverages her current research and 15+ years of global organizational culture innovation, providing leaders with the map and tools for how to build cultures that deliver results.

    Timestamps

    0:00 Introduction to Dr. Jessica Kriegel and Culture Partners
    3:00 What Does a Culture Scientist Do?
    6:45 The Importance of Adaptive Culture Post-COVID
    10:20 Debunking the Myths of Company Culture
    14:10 The Power of Intentional Experiences
    18:30 Case Study: How Culture Change Saved Lives
    21:00 Closing Remarks

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

     Pre-Order
    The Long-Distance Leader
    Read More
    Ask Wayne Anything, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

    How Remote Leadership Has Transformed Since 2018

    In this episode of The Long-Distance Worklife, hosts Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry dive into the evolving landscape of remote and hybrid leadership. With the upcoming release of the second edition of The Long-Distance Leader, Wayne shares insights on how leadership has transformed since the book's original publication in 2018. From the disappearance of the "Remote Leadership Institute" brand to the emergence of hybrid teams as the new standard, the discussion highlights crucial changes in the way we work and lead. Tune in to learn about the key updates in the book, the importance of ongoing learning for leaders, and practical strategies for thriving in today's remote work environment.

    Key Topics

    1. How Remote Leadership Has Changed Since 2018
    2. The Rise of Hybrid Teams
    3. First Order vs. Second Order Changes in Leadership
    4. The Shift to Written Communication
    5. Preparing for Ongoing Changes in Work and Technology

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;02 - 00;00;20;06
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Welcome back to the long-distance worklife. We help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker and joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

    00;00;20;08 - 00;00;25;21
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, Marissa. Hello, listeners, wherever you may be. Hi. How are you?

    00;00;25;24 - 00;00;28;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Great. How are you?

    00;00;28;25 - 00;00;34;18
    Wayne Turmel
    I am, I'm fine. I'm excited. We have a new book coming out. Kind of. Sorta.

    00;00;34;25 - 00;00;39;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes. So do you want to introduce that a little bit before we get into our questions today?

    00;00;39;22 - 00;01;22;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, I'm excited. We are coming up, in 2018. Of course, Kevin Eikenberry and I wrote The Long Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership, which, you know, came out before Covid, and it it's in seven languages, and lots of people have read it and that's wonderful. but it was 2018 and the world has changed. So we now have the long distance leader revised rules for remarkable remote and hybrid leadership, which is the second edition and the updated edition of the original long distance leader.

    00;01;22;09 - 00;01;28;06
    Wayne Turmel
    There's about 2,025% updated content in the book.

    00;01;28;08 - 00;01;50;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That's incredible. And we're actually going to talk about some of that today. specifically, we're going to dive into what is now chapter two of the revised one, about how remote leadership has changed and, that kind of thing. So I guess I want to start off with, how has the perception of remote leadership changed from, you know, 2018 to now?

    00;01;50;25 - 00;02;24;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, it's changed. And I will give you a very concrete example of how it's changed. When I joined the Kevin Eikenberry Group and Kevin hired me. We actually formed a subdivision called the Remote Leadership Institute because people didn't know how to lead remote teams, and they hadn't done it. And it was this weird kind of thing. And over the last year or so, the brand of Remote Leadership Institute has actually gone away.

    00;02;24;09 - 00;02;36;01
    Wayne Turmel
    It's been folded into the Kevin Eikenberry Group because it's no longer its own unique thing that nobody knows what the heck to do with. It's part of the water we swim in.

    00;02;36;03 - 00;02;44;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, I remember when it was still a big deal about what we were going to call it because, well, some people call it telework and some people are calling it telecommuting, and these people are calling it remote.

    00;02;44;27 - 00;03;10;09
    Wayne Turmel
    And when was the last time somebody used the word telework? Right. So, so much has changed. I mean, in since 2018, when we wrote the book, zoom literally did not exist. It was a free service that had no corporate penetration. And suddenly it went from what? Zoom to a verb.

    00;03;10;11 - 00;03;12;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    In like two months.

    00;03;12;07 - 00;03;16;07
    Wayne Turmel
    To a syndrome where suddenly people had zoom fatigue.

    00;03;16;09 - 00;03;17;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;03;17;07 - 00;03;36;03
    Wayne Turmel
    And so things have changed. It is the short answer. Now, what really has changed? Well, a couple of things. Number one is more people have experienced remote work. more people have been successful doing remote work than anybody, especially their bosses thought they could.

    00;03;36;05 - 00;03;37;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes.

    00;03;37;22 - 00;03;55;27
    Wayne Turmel
    so the genie is out of the bottle. the other thing that's happened, and this is why we've added the word hybrid to the title, and a lot of the new content is about hybrid teams, because even though a lot of organizations are returning to the office, are they really?

    00;03;56;00 - 00;03;57;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You're right.

    00;03;57;09 - 00;04;08;27
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, so many organizations have come to the situation where, well, you know, we're going to be in the office 2 or 3 days a week.

    00;04;08;29 - 00;04;35;23
    Wayne Turmel
    And that's great. It's a compromise. Everybody's kind of doing the best they can. But as I like to say, that's not a strategy. That's a hostage negotiation. Right. You know how how much can we make them come back to the office before they quit? How much can we whine about going into the office before they fire us? And so they kind of reach this compromise, that sort of kind of works?

    00;04;35;27 - 00;05;05;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. Real hybrid work is a very different thing. And what we urge in the book is to take a look at whatever it looks like. Right? Whether it's you've got full time, some people remote full time, some people in the office, people are in a couple of days a week. That's still a remote team. If you have one member of your team who isn't where everybody else is, you have a remote team and don't forget that.

    00;05;05;28 - 00;05;19;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that you talk about in this new chapter, the book, is this concept of first order versus second order changes. Can you explain what that is?

    00;05;19;10 - 00;05;45;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. It's kind of like, a first degree burn is how a third degree burn has you in the hospital. All right. The same is true when you are talking about change. A first order of change is we need to do this differently. We need to do it better, faster, smarter, whatever a second order change is, what we're doing isn't working.

    00;05;45;02 - 00;05;47;23
    Wayne Turmel
    We need to do something else.

    00;05;47;25 - 00;05;48;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Gotcha.

    00;05;48;24 - 00;06;23;11
    Wayne Turmel
    So a first order change is we need to use our webcams more often. Yeah, a second order change is we need to make sure that we meet once a quarter as a team, regardless of where people are. It is worth coming together to do that so that our team is connected, engaged, gets to know each other. All that good stuff.

    00;06;23;13 - 00;06;36;09
    Wayne Turmel
    And those kind of changes, those kinds of changes are bigger than we think. I mean, the thing about remote work is the first order change is great and come in a couple of days a week.

    00;06;36;11 - 00;06;38;11
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;06;38;13 - 00;06;57;18
    Wayne Turmel
    A much bigger change is we don't expect you to come in and try to get your tasks done that day. We're going to do all our meetings on the days when we're together and allow people to not have to join meetings on the days that they're working from home, right.

    00;06;57;19 - 00;07;03;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That's a huge shift in mindset in how you work during the week and everything. Well.

    00;07;03;03 - 00;07;12;19
    Wayne Turmel
    This isn't in the book, but it's core to, I think, how we think about hybrid work. And it's kind of mentioned, but.

    00;07;12;21 - 00;07;14;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So you're getting an inside scoop, listeners, are.

    00;07;14;25 - 00;07;43;23
    Wayne Turmel
    You getting an inside scoop? Here's the thing. Most of what we call hybrid work is not it's a blend. It's a compromise, a true hybrid takes two things, puts them together and creates a whole new entity. So the most obvious example is a mule. Yes, one parent is a donkey and one parent is a horse. But if you've ever dealt with mules, you know that they are their own unique animal.

    00;07;43;25 - 00;08;05;00
    Wayne Turmel
    They have traits of both. But a mule is a mule and it is not a horse. And it is sure not a donkey. That's the thing about hybrid work. For hybrid work to really take the next level, to really be strategic, we need to realize that it's not just some people are in the office and some people aren't.

    00;08;05;02 - 00;08;14;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, it's not just what work gets done where, but what work gets done where, when?

    00;08;15;00 - 00;08;15;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;08;15;26 - 00;08;36;25
    Wayne Turmel
    It takes time into account. And so that's going to require a little bit of different thinking. But just as remote leadership was look do the leadership stuff and you'll probably be okay. Right. What we do as leaders hasn't changed. How we do it is a little bit different.

    00;08;36;27 - 00;08;38;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. But the basic concept is the same.

    00;08;38;26 - 00;08;51;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Basic concepts are the same. The same is true of hybrid, except you're building time into the equation in ways that weren't when it was just like, okay, work wherever you want.

    00;08;51;21 - 00;09;09;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and speaking of the idea of, you know, the leadership concepts haven't changed, but how we do them does. So one of the things that we've seen happen with this remote and hybrid shift is the shift of written communication, more than, you know, oral communication. You're not going down the hall and telling Suzy Q that something has changed.

    00;09;10;05 - 00;09;17;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So because of now the shift to written communication and the prevalence of email, like, how is that impacted leadership styles?

    00;09;17;15 - 00;09;45;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, it's not just the prevalence of email. Email is in fact becoming less prevalent than than it was because things like teams and slack and text messaging and all of that stuff. But what that does is it changes the way we communicate. Written communication, by its nature, is less rich than spoken communication.

    00;09;45;17 - 00;09;46;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;09;46;25 - 00;10;10;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. I can send you a message. I can't see your face. I have no idea if you've even read it. I don't know whether you're going to take action or not. If you have a question, it's going to take time for that question to get back to me. Whereas if we're sitting face to face and I say something, you don't understand, I can see on your face because I want to play poker with you someday.

    00;10;10;03 - 00;10;11;14
    Wayne Turmel
    Oh, I can see, oh.

    00;10;11;14 - 00;10;12;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, I replace lose.

    00;10;12;24 - 00;10;44;28
    Wayne Turmel
    So that there's confusion and. Yes. And whatever. Right. And and on a hybrid team, that can be a challenge because the people that are physically together get a different level of communication. Sometimes than the people who are remote. And at best that can lead to kind of quickness. And at worst it becomes a proximity bias issue. Right. Which excludes the more remote members of the team.

    00;10;45;00 - 00;11;11;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, we've talked about that in some other episodes, and I'll link those in the show notes. And so, you know, with this, like we're constantly learning and we're constantly changing how we're doing things to adapt to this remote and hybrid environment. So, you know, why is it so crucial for leaders to accept it, that, you know, they are going to require ongoing learning and they are going to require adaptation that maybe they weren't doing prior to the remote shift?

    00;11;11;08 - 00;11;38;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. one is that when Covid hit and there was the explosion in remote work, everybody was just dog paddling as fast as they could to get through it. And the good news is that they got through it. Yeah. Productivity did not drop the way people thought it would. Employee engagement did not drop the way that they thought it would.

    00;11;38;08 - 00;12;01;21
    Wayne Turmel
    more people quit after Covid than quit during it, quite frankly. so the we can do it. And we got through it and we kind of burst our way through it, and we did the best we could. And some people had the good sense to buy the long distance. Later or, you know, have us teach our long distance leadership series.

    00;12;01;23 - 00;12;07;28
    Wayne Turmel
    and that's certainly still available. But the nuances.

    00;12;08;00 - 00;12;08;24
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;12;08;26 - 00;12;33;23
    Wayne Turmel
    Of how do we do this in a remote environment? There was kind of a tendency to think, oh, we can go back to the before times. We can go back to the way things were. But for the first time, leaders over frontline supervisor are now likely to have at least one member of their team who is remote.

    00;12;33;25 - 00;12;56;15
    Wayne Turmel
    So kind of relying on the way we did it in the before times creates some issues with employee engagement with communication that don't often turn into burning fires, but they are problems that could be believed and situations that could be better than they are.

    00;12;56;17 - 00;12;57;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;12;57;15 - 00;13;26;00
    Wayne Turmel
    And so with this notion that, well, we're all back in the office now. Well, no you're not. On any given day, 50% of your desks are empty. So it's easy to kind of fall into that. Remote's over. We're back to normal. Well, no, the new norm is that you are going to have these things. You're going to have to figure out how to include your remote employees in the discussion in a meaningful ways.

    00;13;26;07 - 00;14;06;17
    Wayne Turmel
    You're more importantly, for the first time, organizations cannot just put their succession planning and their employee development kind of default to the people in the office. If you want to keep your best people and statistics say that your mid-level and junior senior, you know, not C-suite, but, director level folks are most prone to want to work remotely at least some of the time if you do not as an organization, adjust to that, develop succession plans, develop personal development plans.

    00;14;06;19 - 00;14;40;28
    Wayne Turmel
    It's going to be very hard to keep good people. It's going to be very hard to attract people, and it's going to make onboarding a real pain unless you systematize, systemize, systematize. I'm not quite sure what the word is, but you know what? if we don't somehow create a system that acknowledges the differences amongst the team and builds those into creating one team, it'll work, but it won't work.

    00;14;40;28 - 00;14;50;18
    Wayne Turmel
    Great, right? And none of us are listening to this podcast because we want it to just work. We want it to work great.

    00;14;50;21 - 00;15;07;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? So, you know, how can leaders kind of prepare themselves and their teams for, you know, more inevitable changes in work expectations and technology advancements? I mean, we've already discussed this is the new normal. We're going to have new stuff coming in all the time.

    00;15;08;01 - 00;15;25;24
    Wayne Turmel
    But well, and it's normal this week, the exactly I mean, one as of 1048, July, whatever the heck it is. this is the normal. By the time we talk next week, it will be something else.

    00;15;25;26 - 00;15;26;22
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;15;26;24 - 00;15;57;04
    Wayne Turmel
    So the first thing as leaders is don't panic but don't get comfortable. Understand that change is inevitable. Things are going to change. Keep an eye on it. Right. Don't just keep an eye out. You don't have to know every new thing. You. I guarantee you have someone on your team who is the first one to say, hey, there's this new thing we should use, and nobody likes them and nobody listens to them.

    00;15;57;06 - 00;16;02;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And you know, we do. We can.

    00;16;02;29 - 00;16;23;21
    Wayne Turmel
    You're early adopters are lovely human beings, and frequently a bit of a pain. but as leaders, you need to be aware of not so much what tools are out there, but what problems might a new tool address?

    00;16;23;24 - 00;16;24;14
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;16;24;16 - 00;16;28;08
    Wayne Turmel
    That's how to look at new technology, right?

    00;16;28;08 - 00;16;31;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Because not every new solution is going to work for every team too.

    00;16;31;29 - 00;16;48;19
    Wayne Turmel
    And those of us who survived the Betamax, VHS, TiVo DVR comes with my cable system. Oh, look, I can fit it all on my phone who have survived that understands you can't get too comfortable with technology.

    00;16;48;24 - 00;16;55;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right about the time that you think this is going to be the thing it's not. And then, you know, vinyl comes back.

    00;16;56;01 - 00;17;25;28
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, I mean, as we said before, Covid, Microsoft Teams did not exist, right? It was slack for business or Skype for business. Skype for business no longer exists. Now we have teams, right. Because organizations were looking for not having 17 different tools. They wanted one ring to rule them. All right. And whether that rather.

    00;17;25;28 - 00;17;27;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That ring should be Microsoft is a whole different.

    00;17;27;26 - 00;17;48;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Ballgame. It's a totally different question. But they will take the convenience of having one thing and the less and cost and the ease of not having to get 17 licenses for every single tool. Absolutely right. As we've said so many times on this show, every decision gets made for a reason.

    00;17;48;05 - 00;17;52;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? It makes sense to somebody. It just might not be, you know.

    00;17;52;03 - 00;18;18;19
    Wayne Turmel
    So and we're not going to go down the Microsoft rabbit hole. But you know, your question was what do leaders need to think? We just need to keep listening. you know, exclusion on remote teams is the biggest, most corrosive thing. When people feel they are not included, when they feel they're being actively excluded, which is frequently not the case.

    00;18;18;21 - 00;18;30;10
    Wayne Turmel
    I'm not being mean to you. I am not promoting you because I don't like you. I literally don't think about you because I got somebody right here in front of me.

    00;18;30;13 - 00;18;38;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. You need we, as one of our coworkers says a lot. Guy Harris, he says, assume benign intent. They didn't intentionally do this to hurt you.

    00;18;38;15 - 00;19;07;01
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. And we need to know. You need to keep taking the pulse. You need to have rich conversations. You need to give people the chance to engage. Engagement comes from within. I can't think I can engage with you, but you will not necessarily engage with me unless you choose to. Yeah, but I have to give you that opportunity, and I have to avoid the things that will make you disengage.

    00;19;07;04 - 00;19;22;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes, it's a give and take right. So, you know, we've discussed that like things are always changing, they're always adapting. And we need to be doing that. So what are some effective ways for leaders to stay updated and continuously improve their leadership skills.

    00;19;23;01 - 00;19;49;16
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. And I mean, this sounds self-serving because look what we do for a living here at the Kevin Eikenberry Group. But there are plenty of including our own. And we're happy to share those with you ongoing newsletters and updates. And there's no shortage of stuff out there. If you're on LinkedIn, find the gurus that speak to you and just subscribe to them on LinkedIn.

    00;19;49;18 - 00;20;00;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Kevin and I are on LinkedIn. We post new information all the time so that you at least have some sense of what's happening out in the landscape.

    00;20;00;18 - 00;20;02;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely.

    00;20;02;06 - 00;20;25;19
    Wayne Turmel
    There are ways to develop your skills. There is e-learning, there is shortcuts, and there are actual training. Whether your organization provides it or you come to someone like us and our long distance leadership series. and oh, by the way, not for nothing. There's books out there, right?

    00;20;25;22 - 00;20;33;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    There's there's learning for everyone. So speaking of that, and because we're coming up on our time, I do want to.

    00;20;34;04 - 00;20;36;05
    Wayne Turmel
    See the subtle way I let us.

    00;20;36;07 - 00;20;59;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    To. I did I did, so, as you know, those of you who are watching just saw Wayne hold up a lovely book. And so we have a special announcement and that is that the second edition of the Long-Distance leader is available for preorder and will be launching on September 17th, and this updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

    00;20;59;02 - 00;21;21;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Kevin, I can very Wayne Trammell show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. So don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Preorder your copy today at Long distance Work life.com/l d l and strengthen your leadership skills today. And Wayne, thank you so much for this conversation.

    00;21;21;00 - 00;21;30;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I hope that people are really excited about the new book. it's you've changed so much, and I think it's really going to be helpful for the people who are reading it.

    00;21;30;11 - 00;21;42;16
    Wayne Turmel
    So it's it's, it's a blast. And, you know, it's funny, we say all the time here at the cabinet Kingsbury group training as an event, learning as a process. And that includes for us.

    00;21;42;22 - 00;22;09;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, absolutely. We are also learning all the time and, you know, early adopting, but anyway, thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources. Don't forget to go to long distance work life.com. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes. And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating and review.

    00;22;10;01 - 00;22;25;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners just like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know you listen to this episode, or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode. We would love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us.

    00;22;25;19 - 00;22;28;12
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

    00;22;28;14 - 00;22;41;04
    Unknown


    00;22;41;06 - 00;22;42;01
    Unknown



    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction to Today's Episode
    01:50 How Remote Leadership Has Changed Since 2018
    03:36 Understanding Hybrid Teams and Their Impact
    05:05 First Order vs. Second Order Changes in Leadership
    09:09 The Shift to Written Communication in Remote Teams
    15:07 Preparing for Continuous Change in Work and Technology
    20:34 Special Announcement: Preorder the Revised Long-Distance Leader
    21:21 Final Thoughts and Call to Action

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

     Pre-Order
    The Long-Distance Leader
    Read More