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Guests, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Technology and Trust: Key Pillars of Remote Work with Terry Isner

Terry Isner, owner and CEO of Jaffe, a remote marketing and PR agency for law firms, discusses the evolution of remote work and the challenges and benefits it brings. He shares how Jaffe transitioned to remote work 35 years ago and how technology has played a crucial role in their success. Isner emphasizes the importance of trust, empathy, and effective communication in a remote work environment. He also highlights the need for leaders to adapt and let go of traditional office norms to fully embrace the remote work revolution.

Featured Guest

Name: Terry M. Isner

Bio: A marketing philosopher, brand consultant and dynamic speaker for the professional services industry, Terry M. Isner is known as “the empathy man” because of his humanistic approach to business strategy.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:54 History of Remote Work
01:42 Evolution of Remote Work
02:28 Formation of Jaffe
03:21 Challenges of Remote Work
04:26 Benefits of Remote Work
05:11 Importance of Intention in Remote Work
06:24 Impact of COVID-19 on Remote Work
07:08 Accountability and Security of Remote Work
08:36 Success of Remote Work During COVID-19
11:28 Managing Money and Competitiveness in Retail
12:16 Importance of Empathy and Trust in Virtual Leadership
13:07 Using Technology to Establish Accountability in Remote Work
14:21 Challenges of Hiring and Ensuring Productivity in Remote Teams
16:17 Overcoming Communication Barriers in Remote Work
17:16 Fear and Barriers to Embracing Remote Work
19:00 Negative Impact of Early Technology Adoption in Remote Work
20:05 Generational Differences in Adapting to Remote Work
21:02 Trust the Process and Embrace the Humanity Revolution
21:27 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

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Ask Wayne Anything, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Making Sense of Remote Onboarding

Join Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel as they navigate the lively world of remote onboarding. In this episode they reveal some clever strategies for creating a welcoming remote culture and ensuring new team members feel connected from the start. They dive into practical tips like engaging webcam chats, clear task delegation, and the importance of a user-friendly employee handbook, all spiced up with their trademark humor and expertise.

Key Takeaways

1. Remote onboarding is a critical business problem, as remote workers are statistically more likely to leave if they don't feel a sense of belonging.
2. Onboarding should include webcam conversations with team members to build rapport and connections.
3. Remote employees should be given meaningful tasks and responsibilities from the start to demonstrate their value and contribute to the team.
4. Online employee handbooks and resources should be searchable and logically organized to help new employees navigate company-specific terminology and processes.

View Full Transcript

00;00;08;02 - 00;00;18;29
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to the Long-Distance Work Life, where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi.

00;00;19;01 - 00;00;23;25
Wayne Turmel
Hi. That's me. And also a remote worker, as it turns out.

00;00;23;28 - 00;00;37;27
Marisa Eikenberry
That is also true. It's what part of what makes you an expert? So today we are talking about more pet peeves. And first of all, thank you for to so many of you who have been sending us these, we've had so much fun doing them over the last several months.

00;00;38;00 - 00;00;42;09
Wayne Turmel
And I love listening to people whine. That makes me so happy.

00;00;42;12 - 00;00;49;03
Marisa Eikenberry
And the funny part is some of our listeners have said they enjoy hearing you rant about things. So it's a perfect match, right?

00;00;49;05 - 00;00;54;04
Wayne Turmel
It's a good it's a good thing, right? Tell me what you want me to rant about, Brady.

00;00;54;07 - 00;01;13;15
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, today we're going to rant about onboarding and specifically about remote onboarding. So I heard from Katrina on Facebook about onboarding as a fully remote worker into an existing, fully remote team is rough. She did it before COVID, before it was fashionable, and it took 4 to 6 weeks before she felt like she didn't just take up space.

00;01;13;18 - 00;01;37;27
Marisa Eikenberry
She's also had two peers and one supervisor who were all onboarded during COVID. They had a tough time with it and all have since left. And three direct reports, onboarded as a mostly remote experience. But they had complicated processes for getting access to technology and things of that nature. So far, all three direct reports are still here. But as a team, we have to and do work very, very hard to build cohesion and rapport.

00;01;38;00 - 00;01;51;21
Marisa Eikenberry
We actually had somebody else, Rachel, also on Facebook, who had said that onboarding new team members was very tricky for them and it was hard to form new and genuine connections. So there are people that are having issues onboarding remotely so.

00;01;51;23 - 00;02;24;26
Wayne Turmel
Well, they are. And I am going to be that guy again and remind people that this is not just, gee, it's really hard and gosh, I'd like to have gotten it. There is a business cost here if people do not deal within the first five days. A sense of belonging they are statistically more likely to leave. And remote workers, as we have talked about many times on this show, have no barriers to leaving.

00;02;24;28 - 00;02;29;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah, they can start the next day in a completely different job. They just have.

00;02;29;20 - 00;02;30;09
Wayne Turmel
Literally.

00;02;30;09 - 00;02;31;20
Marisa Eikenberry
The only thing that.

00;02;31;22 - 00;03;00;29
Wayne Turmel
Literally the only thing they need to do is get a new password. Yeah. So this is a business problem. It's not just a gosh, wouldn't it be nice to feel more connected to my people problem? It's a legit business problem. And I think the experience I mean, if it takes 40 days to become onboarded and be onboarded, I'm going to guess they mean doing the productive work for which you were hired.

00;03;01;02 - 00;03;04;17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Feeling like they belong there. They're not here.

00;03;04;19 - 00;03;10;26
Wayne Turmel
And probably two parts, right? Feeling like they belong and actually doing the work that you were hired to do.

00;03;11;04 - 00;03;11;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;03;11;28 - 00;03;31;28
Wayne Turmel
Right. That you're not just doing busy work, that you're not just I mean, one of the things that makes me crazy about traditional onboarding and this is true of in-person as well, is why do we spend the first three days that we are hired filling out paperwork?

00;03;32;03 - 00;03;32;29
Marisa Eikenberry
That's fair.

00;03;33;01 - 00;03;45;04
Wayne Turmel
Right. I have to fill out the paperwork so that by the end of the week, hopefully I have my computer and my logging access and all of that stuff. Why isn't that waiting for me? Day one.

00;03;45;07 - 00;03;48;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Or even potentially filled out before then, if you're able.

00;03;48;13 - 00;04;25;26
Wayne Turmel
Well, this is what I'm saying is, you know, I know that I start work Monday. How about I get you the paperwork before then? Yeah. And I know that there are issues. If I'm filling out paperwork, I'm technically working and I should be paid, and there's stuff, but come on. Yeah. The fact that we spend so much of the onboarding process and when we're in the office and we're dealing with people and we're sitting in the cube farm and we're kind of kibitzing with people and meeting people and putting faces to names, it's not entirely wasted time.

00;04;25;28 - 00;04;30;00
Wayne Turmel
Right. But then how do you do that?

00;04;30;02 - 00;04;30;12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;04;30;12 - 00;04;52;16
Wayne Turmel
So how do you replicate that experience when you aren't in the office? Right. And I think that is it's an important question. I think it depends on where you are relative to the office. Right. If you can go in for a couple of days, your first couple of days, I think that is an optimum experience.

00;04;52;20 - 00;04;53;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00;04;53;29 - 00;04;56;20
Wayne Turmel
If you are in Guam.

00;04;56;22 - 00;04;57;25
Marisa Eikenberry
You're not going be able to do that.

00;04;57;28 - 00;05;20;23
Wayne Turmel
You're not going to be able to do that in a way that makes sense. So how do you do it? Now, we have and if you have heard us talk about this, forgive me, dear listener, but this is a best practice that we do that I think is really, really critical. When somebody joins our organization, their first assignment, this is an assignment.

00;05;20;24 - 00;05;43;27
Wayne Turmel
This is stuff they are expected to do. Day 1 to 3 is to set up a half hour webcam conversation with every member of the team, whether they're going to work with that person all the time or not. Right. They may very rarely work with Lisa in payables or Angie behind the scenes, but a half hour webcam conversation.

00;05;43;29 - 00;05;46;20
Wayne Turmel
And it starts with what's your job? What do you do here?

00;05;46;20 - 00;05;47;10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00;05;47;13 - 00;05;55;01
Wayne Turmel
Right. But it turns into where you go to school and do you have kids and what's on that shelf behind you and you know.

00;05;55;01 - 00;06;08;03
Marisa Eikenberry
It to not be mostly work. I mean, yeah, you're going to talk a little bit about that, but it's really meant to be. I'm trying to get to know you as a person. I'm trying to find commonalities so that way we can build rapport.

00;06;08;05 - 00;06;27;15
Wayne Turmel
And these conversations should happen spontaneously if you are in the office with people. Now, to be fair, they honestly don't, right? A lot of us are introverts or we don't want to bother somebody and we're not going to schedule time with somebody at the next desk to say, Give me a half hour and let me pick your brain.

00;06;27;15 - 00;06;55;28
Wayne Turmel
Right? Right. But that's a best practice because it doesn't matter where those people are. You're not just hanging out in the lunchroom with people in the office. Right. So that is a very and it needs to happen right away, like the first couple of days. Right. First of all, what else are you doing anyway? Yeah. You haven't really been trained to do anything yet, but make that useful time.

00;06;56;00 - 00;07;24;22
Wayne Turmel
The other thing that people report with onboarding remotely is there's a lot of time. The minute I meet with my manager, your manager does their best to have one on ones and give them lots of time and stuff, but they're not always available. They are doing other things and helping other employees and whatever. And so the amount of wasted time.

00;07;24;24 - 00;07;25;18
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;07;25;21 - 00;07;39;12
Wayne Turmel
Those first few days is really frustrating to people. They want to do work. They don't want to. Well, I had a call with my boss at one and I've got training at three and what do I do in the meantime?

00;07;39;14 - 00;07;59;19
Marisa Eikenberry
So on that same lines, I know that recently we had an episode where we talk a lot about asynchronous video and we talk about that in the context of meetings. But you know, to your point about this whole scheduling time and all that. Would you recommend asynchronous video on board in at least for part of the process?

00;07;59;21 - 00;08;20;15
Wayne Turmel
I think where it makes sense, I think that's absolutely true. And, you know, we a lot of organizations have training, right. E-learning and stuff. It doesn't have to be that formal. So it's great when you can do that, right? When you have all the schmancy e-learning and.

00;08;20;17 - 00;08;22;29
Marisa Eikenberry
And your I.T. department has time to build it for you.

00;08;23;02 - 00;08;45;20
Wayne Turmel
And the department has time to build that for you and all that stuff. I think that short asynchronous messages, you know, just to start the day. Hey, Marisa, today I want you doing this right. And it's not an email. It's just, Hey, how you doing? Hope you had a great night. Listen, today we're going to work on this.

00;08;45;27 - 00;08;59;06
Wayne Turmel
I want you to contact Alice this morning, and I want you to talk to so-and-so this afternoon and talk to them about this function or get them to show you how they do X.

00;08;59;10 - 00;09;00;28
Marisa Eikenberry
That all make sense.

00;09;01;00 - 00;09;12;25
Wayne Turmel
It's informal, it's casual, it's useful. Right? It's. You're still getting some degree of face and voice time with the person. And it's personalized.

00;09;12;27 - 00;09;15;17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Yeah. It's way better than just a slack message.

00;09;15;20 - 00;09;52;22
Wayne Turmel
And I think if we think about the way we've traditionally onboarded, it doesn't really work anyway. I mean, think about the way we used to start jobs, especially at big companies. It's your first day and so you go to bootcamp and you and eight other new hires fly to wherever the headquarters is and you're in class all day and then you go out for dinner at night and you do that lather, rinse, repeat, and it's at least four days and sometimes two weeks, and the amount that you remember is zero.

00;09;52;25 - 00;09;59;06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I was I will admit I've never had that experience. And now I'm very thankful that I have not.

00;09;59;08 - 00;10;31;06
Wayne Turmel
If you are if you join an organization as a new salesperson, especially straight out of school or new in your career, odds are that you have had to go to bootcamp. And the fact of the matter is, the human brain doesn't absorb information that way. Yes, you socialize, right? First of all, you you create a cohort with your fellow learners and those relationships can very often last throughout your time at the company.

00;10;31;11 - 00;10;33;02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And those are very important.

00;10;33;04 - 00;10;39;27
Wayne Turmel
There are no atheists in foxholes. And, you know, you bond in times of extreme stress.

00;10;39;27 - 00;10;41;08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;10;41;10 - 00;11;03;28
Wayne Turmel
But in terms of two weeks of constant training, training, training, here's your handbook. Turn to page eight. You actually retain very little and at least in the old days, you used to get a binder and you could go back and refer to the document in the binder and find, How do I do that? Again, we don't get binders anymore.

00;11;03;28 - 00;11;04;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay, So we.

00;11;04;27 - 00;11;06;22
Wayne Turmel
Have that one.

00;11;06;27 - 00;11;20;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. So I know that, like you said, we don't we don't do the binder thing anymore, but I know that there are some companies that they've created online employee handbooks or user guides or whatever you want to call it.

00;11;20;26 - 00;11;23;20
Wayne Turmel
And they are usually impossible to navigate.

00;11;23;23 - 00;11;24;19
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00;11;24;21 - 00;11;32;14
Wayne Turmel
The information, this is where I, he says, referring to an early conversation that we had. This is where II becomes helpful.

00;11;32;19 - 00;11;33;05
Marisa Eikenberry
That makes sense.

00;11;33;05 - 00;12;06;29
Wayne Turmel
Because at least in a binder, I can lift my finger and start flipping pages to find what I need online. If I don't know exactly what that thing is called, I am scrolling forever. Whereas if the A, I can say, Hey, show me how to do X boom, there it is and you're good. So if you're going to have online onboarding, if you're going to have employee handbooks electronically, they need to be searchable and they need to make some sort of logical sense.

00;12;07;01 - 00;12;14;17
Marisa Eikenberry
And that makes sense. I know that there are some companies they use notion for this. Some of them create a wiki or things like that. So I mean, even.

00;12;14;17 - 00;12;36;23
Wayne Turmel
One can be incredibly, incredibly helpful. But the other thing is it's just this two weeks of whatever and there's this lovely thing that I've talked about for years, but I don't think we've ever talked about on the show, which is the Maryland okay, which is the term. It's a big rabbit hole, literally, because it's stolen from the book Watership Down.

00;12;36;26 - 00;12;44;05
Wayne Turmel
But basically the horror element is how much you can take into your brain before it's full.

00;12;44;07 - 00;12;44;20
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;12;44;26 - 00;13;12;19
Wayne Turmel
And you can't. And you know, if you've ever been to a training class, this is usually about 11:00 on day one. You have absorbed all the stuff you can absorb. And it's not that you don't want to be a good soldier and you don't want to learn it. You just don't get a chance to use it and process it and move it from short term memory to long term memory to make room for more stuff, let alone a week or two weeks of this nonsense.

00;13;12;19 - 00;13;17;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, you'll remember the first things you learned in the last things you learned and you won't remember a lot of the in between.

00;13;18;00 - 00;13;38;11
Wayne Turmel
Exactly right. And so one of the things that we are learning about onboarding is, yes, some things are best done in the office. Well, if you're going to be in a hybrid environment, be prepared to space in the office. You know, even if you're mostly going to be working from home, suck it up, take a day, two days, do what you need to do.

00;13;38;14 - 00;14;05;21
Wayne Turmel
But a lot of it can be learned in chunks and it can be learned in chunks from different sources. Traditionally at onboarding, Marisa's been here forever. I'm going to bolt the new person to Marisa, and she's going to follow her around like a little duckling and imprint on her. And that's how she's going to learn. And she's going to learn all of Marisa's good habits, and she's going to pick up all of Marisa's bad habits.

00;14;05;24 - 00;14;08;11
Wayne Turmel
And Marisa is not going to get a darn thing done.

00;14;08;13 - 00;14;09;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00;14;09;05 - 00;14;16;06
Wayne Turmel
While this is going on, but helpful for knowing where the bathroom is and who's responsible for the coffee and, you know.

00;14;16;07 - 00;14;18;01
Marisa Eikenberry
And having a buddy in the office like that.

00;14;18;01 - 00;14;47;06
Wayne Turmel
So having somebody that you're assigned to online virtual team collaboration and onboarding should be the same. But you can pick different people for different functions so that you're not. Marisa isn't the only human in the world that person knows right? Right. Alison's our resident expert, expert on Excel, and Bob has been here a really long time. And you know what?

00;14;47;13 - 00;15;03;24
Wayne Turmel
I want you to take an hour with Bob and just get the history of the company. Look up what you know, What did he know? What does he know about the culture? That seems like a strange thing to assign. It's the kind of thing that we think happens organically in person.

00;15;03;24 - 00;15;04;26
Marisa Eikenberry
And it does not.

00;15;04;29 - 00;15;13;26
Wayne Turmel
But it does not. And if you wait for it to happen organically, you know it's not going to happen as quickly or perhaps as well.

00;15;14;01 - 00;15;39;09
Marisa Eikenberry
So going along the same lines of, you know, there's a point where there's too much information for us to grasp. And, you know, maybe employee handbooks aren't the right thing or user guides or I know for us and I'm sure this is true for many companies, you know, we have acronyms, acronyms and initial isms. And we have these words that nobody uses except for us, like, how do you how do you onboard somebody into that?

00;15;39;09 - 00;15;59;29
Marisa Eikenberry
How do you help them find that? I know that we as a company, we we keep realizing we've had two people who onboarded two years ago now and, you know, they've been with us and everything's great. And every now and then they ask a question that for us we think, Well, duh, it's X, Y, Z. And then we have to remember they don't know this or they never asked.

00;15;59;29 - 00;16;02;18
Marisa Eikenberry
So it never came up again.

00;16;02;21 - 00;16;18;21
Wayne Turmel
I would be a beautiful thing right there on a meeting. And we're all talking about the LDL series and blah, blah, blah, and they can go on and go, what in the name of everything that's holy is the LDL series. Right. And they can get the answer without looking like idiots.

00;16;18;28 - 00;16;19;26
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay, There.

00;16;20;00 - 00;16;49;03
Wayne Turmel
This is this is where now. So some of this is information gap. Right. But the other thing is, are there tasks that they can and should be doing that they can't do their entire job, but they can start to go through their lead list. They can start to compile a list of there are things that they can do so that as soon as possible they are doing some valuable work and adding value to the team.

00;16;49;04 - 00;17;07;25
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and it sounds like, too, there's there's a responsibility for the people who have been working there for a while to inform the new people about things. And there's a responsibility of the new person. Ask questions, too. Now, granted, I realize if they can't ask what they don't know, but there's also stuff they can't ask.

00;17;08;02 - 00;17;36;16
Wayne Turmel
But there is. It's funny when you talk about company culture and company handbooks and that kind of thing, there's explicit knowledge and there's tacit knowledge. Okay. Explicit knowledge is stuff that's on the page. If you want to know how to do X, go to this website, turn to this page. There is a process for this, right? If I'm working and I have a question, well, everybody knows Alice is the Excel wizard.

00;17;36;21 - 00;17;49;04
Wayne Turmel
Where does it say that we should say, If I have an Excel question, I have to go to Alice because I'm going to Marisa because she's the only person I know. And Marisa is completely useless when it comes to excel.

00;17;49;06 - 00;17;56;03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Well, which also means that I need to be really good about saying I'm not the Excel expert. Alice It.

00;17;56;05 - 00;18;21;19
Wayne Turmel
Exactly right. So one of the things that's helpful is if you have people with specific knowledge or skill sets, get them involved early, particularly if they are remote from each other because I might be unwilling to reach out to Marisa with a question. But that's Marisa's job, right? Marisa knows that I am.

00;18;21;21 - 00;18;25;17
Marisa Eikenberry
I am the keeper of the email. You have to talk to me at some point, right?

00;18;25;20 - 00;18;47;22
Wayne Turmel
Two things are going to happen. One is that I feel less resistance to reaching out to Marisa because I know that. And the other thing is Marisa might be a little more proactive about checking in with me, about how I'm doing with that thing, because that's the piece of knowledge that Marisa is responsible for.

00;18;47;24 - 00;18;48;21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00;18;48;23 - 00;19;12;07
Wayne Turmel
Right. And this all sounds very complicated, but it really is critical to getting people on board. I mean, we talk about, well, people need to be comfortable and how well, how do they do that exposure to the people on their team getting to know them socially, developing trust very quickly, doing meaningful work and demonstrating that you can do meaningful work.

00;19;12;07 - 00;19;19;07
Wayne Turmel
Right. Maybe what this person needs is to be invited to a couple of meetings that they are completely unqualified to be in.

00;19;19;11 - 00;19;20;03
Marisa Eikenberry
That's fair.

00;19;20;06 - 00;19;45;09
Wayne Turmel
But they might have an idea, right? Hey, at my old company we did that and they'll hear the acronyms flying around and they'll hear how we work together. So parceling out their day and figuring out when they do actual work, when can other people be involved in this so that we are creating the social networks and the bonds and the relationships?

00;19;45;12 - 00;20;06;19
Wayne Turmel
And then what useless work can we eliminate? Right, Right. So they're not spending five days filling out forms before they even talk to another human being. That will go a long way to making the onboarding process more pleasant, more useful and more consistent with the way we're working.

00;20;06;26 - 00;20;26;04
Marisa Eikenberry
That totally makes sense. And unfortunately, we are out of time. I know that we could probably continue to talk about this for much longer than this, but I want to thank Katrina and Rachel for sending in your suggestion about talking about onboarding, because I think this was a really important conversation, and I'm sure this is not the only time that we're going to talk about onboarding in the future.

00;20;26;06 - 00;20;42;13
Marisa Eikenberry
And thank you so much for listening to the longest work life for Shownotes Transcripts and other resources make sure to visit long distance work like that. Tom If you haven't yet subscribe to the podcast, you won't miss any future episodes while you're there. Be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show.

00;20;42;15 - 00;20;57;27
Marisa Eikenberry
Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes and let us know you listen to this episode or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode. We'd love to hear from you if you'd like to learn more about remote teams. Order Wayne and Kevin Eisenberg's new book, The Long Distance Team.

00;20;57;29 - 00;21;04;09
Marisa Eikenberry
You can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team Book Tor.com. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get too down.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro to Remote Onboarding
01:13 Challenges & Turnover in Onboarding
02:24 Addressing Remote Onboarding
03:11 Traditional vs. Remote Onboarding
04:25 Replicating In-Person Onboarding
05:20 Webcam Conversations Best Practices
06:08 Building Remote Rapport
06:56 Tackling Time Wastage in Onboarding
07:39 Overcoming Onboarding Delays
07:59 Asynchronous Video for Onboarding
08:45 Short Messages for Daily Tasks
09:12 Traditional Methods & Retention
10:31 Building Relationships in Onboarding
11:06 Searchable Online Handbooks
13:38 Hybrid Onboarding Strategies
14:05 Diverse Roles in Onboarding
15:39 Navigating Company Jargon
16:18 Encouraging Questions from New Hires
16:49 Engaging New Hires in Valuable Tasks
17:36 Sharing Explicit and Tacit Knowledge
18:21 Involving Skilled Team Members
19:12 Building Trust and Exposure
19:45 Creating Social Networks
20:06 Streamlining the Onboarding Process
20:26 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

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Guests, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Essential Skills for Thriving in the Modern Workplace with Mark Herschberg

Mark Herschberg discusses the essential skills needed to thrive in the modern workplace. He emphasizes the importance of creating a career plan and regularly checking in and refining it. Mark also highlights the need for effective communication, especially in the remote work environment where communication channels are more limited. He explains that writing skills and written communication have become increasingly important, as 70% of work is now done in writing. Additionally, Mark emphasizes the significance of networking, both internally and externally, for career success. He encourages reframing the perception of corporate politics and recognizing the value of building relationships within the organization.

Key Takeaways

1. Creating a career plan is essential for long-term success.
2. Effective communication is crucial, especially in the remote work environment.
3. Writing skills and written communication are increasingly important in the modern workplace.
4. Networking is valuable for career growth and navigating corporate politics.

View Full Transcript

00:00:00:21 - 00:00:34:02
Wayne Turmel
Greetings. Salutations. Hello. Bienvenue. The new all that good stuff to the Long-Distance Worklife podcast, the show that is really about making sense of the modern workplace, whether you are remote hybrid, stuck in an airport wherever you are, however you do your work. Welcome. Welcome. My name is Wayne Turmel. I am a master trainer and coach with the Kevin Eikenberry Group and I am really excited to have you with us today.

00:00:34:04 - 00:01:01:07
Wayne Turmel
Marisa is sitting patiently editing and producing this episode while I have a another terrific conversation with a really smart person. And today's topic is one that I am obsessed about, which is as somebody who doesn't have a formal degree and has done okay for himself, what are the skills that we need to live in thrive in this new workplace?

00:01:01:09 - 00:01:14:21
Wayne Turmel
And our guest today is author Mark Hirshberg. He is the author of The Career Toolkit Essential Skills for Success. No One Taught You. I love that. Hi, Mark. How are you.

00:01:14:23 - 00:01:17:12
Mark Herschberg
Doing? Great. Thanks for having me on the show today.

00:01:17:14 - 00:01:25:08
Wayne Turmel
Well, as always, thank you for being here. Tell us a little bit about you and what you do and then we'll jump right in here.

00:01:25:11 - 00:01:51:10
Mark Herschberg
I do do a couple different things. I am primarily a CTO, CPO, chief technology officer, chief product officer. I do that sometimes when I build my own startups. Sometimes I work for other companies. Right now I'm doing fractional work, so I'm consulting to a few different companies, giving them a few hours a week as they either need help or lately there's been a lot of questions about, I hope, and helping them with.

00:01:51:12 - 00:02:12:12
Mark Herschberg
Now I've also, in parallel, been teaching at MIT for over 20 years, developing these skills, teach them to our students because these are skills we don't normally teach. And we recognize that years ago I put them into the book The Career Toolkit, Essential Skills for Success that no one taught you. To help reach a wider audience. And I now do speaking on that as well.

00:02:12:14 - 00:02:34:18
Mark Herschberg
And then I also have an app brain bomb, because when we read a book like mine or listen to a podcast like this one, we get information, but we need it months later, days later at the place, and we often have forgotten it. So Brain Bump is a free app to help people retain what they get from my book, other books, podcasts and other sources.

00:02:34:23 - 00:02:36:13
Mark Herschberg
So I do a lot of different things.

00:02:36:15 - 00:02:55:17
Wayne Turmel
Great, great stuff. And we will have links to the book and to Brain Bomb and all of that good stuff on the show notes, as always. So you and I were talking before we started. And by the way, if you ever get a chance to listen to the conversation before Dave rolls, that's probably the coolest part of the show, if I'm honest.

00:02:55:22 - 00:03:25:20
Wayne Turmel
This is something that I'm obsessed with as somebody who didn't get the formal business education and kind of certain stuff on the fly. I'm obsessed with how people succeed and why really smart people often don't. What first of all, what are the tools that we need? And then let's talk about how it's different in this world of remote hybrid work from the way that we've traditionally thought about our careers.

00:03:25:21 - 00:03:47:22
Mark Herschberg
There are ten skills covered in the book, and you've seen these before. Now you might see a list that has five of them or 50 of them, and they're really the same list. It's just where you're drawing the lines, how big those buckets are. But the ten that we really boil it down to three sections versus careers creating and executing a career plan skills, I call them working effectively.

00:03:47:22 - 00:04:10:03
Mark Herschberg
These are things like managing your manager and understanding corporate culture and politics. The word skill, interviewing. Now most of us know how to interview as a candidate, but many of us have to interview on the other side of the table and we have no training how to do that. Second section leadership and management. Or there's a chapter on leadership, one on people management, one on process management.

00:04:10:03 - 00:04:17:18
Mark Herschberg
They're separate. And the third section four Skills communication, networking, negotiating relations and ethics.

00:04:17:21 - 00:04:48:13
Wayne Turmel
Okay, so there's that first section in that third section really kind of set me aflame here because we spend a lot of time talking about leadership and management. There's a million resources around that. All right. There's no shortage of stuff. Talk to me about that first bunch, particularly the notion of setting your career track and working a plan, because working remotely has kind of changed the rules.

00:04:48:15 - 00:04:59:10
Wayne Turmel
Some people kind of knew instinctively when you worked in the office, you bump into people at the coffee machine and you can suck up people in the cafeteria, but it's different when you're not there.

00:04:59:13 - 00:05:16:11
Mark Herschberg
It is indeed. Let's first start with you need a career plan, because even in office, most people tend to skip that. You would never tackle a big project at work, a six month, a year long project without having some type of plan. You wouldn't say your boss. Well, cross your fingers. I'll see what I get done in six months.

00:05:16:11 - 00:05:34:21
Mark Herschberg
So I hope I hit the goal. That's crazy. You'd say, Let's create a plan unless you check things on the plan. Or are we on plan? Off plan? Do we adjust the plan? If you wouldn't do a six months or a 12 month project at work without a plan. Why are you doing a 20, 30 year career without having a plan?

00:05:34:23 - 00:05:43:14
Wayne Turmel
Now, just as we're talking about a plan, let's be really tactical and practical here. What are the milestones in that plan?

00:05:43:17 - 00:06:07:08
Mark Herschberg
Great question. What I recommend people do is you create first you've got your your vision, your long term. I want to be the VP of whatever in 20 years, whatever your goal is. Now, you know that if you want to be the VP in 20 years, you need to be somewhere probably about 15 years out. Just like if you're delivering a project in 12 months, where do you need to be ten months out?

00:06:07:08 - 00:06:24:03
Mark Herschberg
So you're on time so we can start to backtrack. Where do you need to be in about 15 years? What to be there in 15 years? Where do you need to be in ten years and in five years so we can start backing out now? The timeframe somewhat arbitrary. It doesn't have to be 15, ten, five and the ranges.

00:06:24:05 - 00:06:40:18
Mark Herschberg
But just like in your project plan, you might have these placeholders and you know what you're planning for month ten, that's kind of fuzzy and that might change. But what you're doing the next 30 days should be very clear. And so what you're doing in the next year or two is you backed out this plan, what you do in the next year or two.

00:06:40:18 - 00:07:01:04
Mark Herschberg
What I need to start by being a better communicator or learning some more technical skills in my discipline or whatever it is that should be concrete. And that's what you're working on. And just like these project plans, you want to have check ins and adjustments. So here's something simple you can do right now. I'm going to ask you to pause the podcast, but you have to promise to come back.

00:07:01:06 - 00:07:24:15
Mark Herschberg
Pause the podcast. Go to your calendar. Put in a calendar event that says, Think about my career and set that as a recurring event every six months. And now that you're back, what you just did by creating that recurring calendar event, you've created a cadence to check in and refine your plan. Just like on our projects, we have a weekly or monthly check in.

00:07:24:20 - 00:07:26:10
Mark Herschberg
You've now done that for your career.

00:07:26:13 - 00:07:29:19
Wayne Turmel
And assuming that folks are still listening at this point.

00:07:30:01 - 00:07:32:00
Mark Herschberg
That's why I made the promise to come back.

00:07:32:05 - 00:07:56:19
Wayne Turmel
And when we talk about developing skills, I just want to go to 30,000 feet for a minute. When we're talking about developing skills, we're not necessarily saying go back and get a master's degree, although that might be part of the occasion. There are a million ways to grow and develop some of both micro and macro skills that you're going to need.

00:07:56:21 - 00:08:17:23
Mark Herschberg
You're absolutely right. Certainly you can get a formal education. You can get informal education by taking online classes, reading books, listening to a great podcast like this one, exploring education is very important for some people. In fact, things like communicating leadership, it's like swimming. You can't just read a book on swimming and say, I know what I'm doing.

00:08:17:23 - 00:08:41:19
Mark Herschberg
You have to actually practice and do it. And so you can practice things by getting on certain projects. You can maybe do it with some volunteer work or things outside your professional work. You can also I have on my website on the resources page, a free download to create a free internal training program to upskill yourself or your entire organization on these skills because they are experiences.

00:08:41:19 - 00:08:44:05
Mark Herschberg
So there's many different ways you can acquire them.

00:08:44:09 - 00:09:19:14
Wayne Turmel
So time being what it is, let's kind of jump forward. Communication. I mean, communication skills are my personal passion. I think that they're all so important and too many really smart, good people don't possess them in the amount and style that they need. But it's also like this big thing. It's like a checkbox on an interview, right? Good communication skills to your mind, what's included in that and maybe how has the way we work in the last few years changed our approach to this stuff?

00:09:19:17 - 00:09:47:20
Mark Herschberg
You hit the nail on the head when you said this checkbox on these job descriptions, and I used to be guilty of that myself. Earlier was it mean to say good communication skills? Does that mean we want someone who can stand on the TED talk stage and do this global presentation? They'll get a million views. Does that mean someone who writes concise emails, Does that mean someone who can explain or discipline to people without the technical background in that field?

00:09:47:22 - 00:10:09:17
Mark Herschberg
These are all different types of communications. They're all important, but they may not all be equally important to the role. So whenever we define a role, we need to say what type of communication do we need? Because it could be any of those. And we probably in our careers want to develop some of all of them. But for a particular job, some will be more important.

00:10:09:17 - 00:10:33:22
Mark Herschberg
And so you as a hiring person should understand that you as a candidate should understand that and speak to that now as we get to remote teams, where I think this becomes particularly challenging is our communication channels narrow when we are together, we're in the same environment. Obviously we have facial expressions, body language, tone, even just the environment.

00:10:33:22 - 00:10:53:18
Mark Herschberg
We've all been meetings where everyone feels temps or everyone feels relaxed and you can just feel that vibe once you start going to video. We don't have that vibe that we can see some body language once we go to audio, we lose the body language. Once we go to email, we lose the tones, we get more and more narrow in our communication channels.

00:10:53:18 - 00:11:03:20
Mark Herschberg
And as we're remote, we're using more of those narrower channels. So it's important that we learn how to communicate despite the more narrow bandwidth we are communicating through.

00:11:03:22 - 00:11:29:04
Wayne Turmel
And I'm loving that. Talk to me a little bit. It's something that I obsess about, and I'm always shocked that more people don't find this worthy of obsession, which is what you're talking about. It's the narrow form of communication. For the first time in human history, 70% of our work is being done in writing, which is a huge deal if you stop to think about it.

00:11:29:08 - 00:11:36:19
Wayne Turmel
What are how do we need to rethink writing skills and written communication action as we look forward?

00:11:37:00 - 00:11:49:02
Mark Herschberg
One of the challenges is we kind of have this one size fits all. If you think about an email, we have this email. The email came out of a memo, What we used to do in the fifties.

00:11:49:04 - 00:11:53:19
Wayne Turmel
Or I was there when the email came about, I was there.

00:11:53:21 - 00:12:11:18
Mark Herschberg
There's almost different types of communications. In fact, we're of a we're not we're not the youngest generation anymore. And you see with younger people, why would you call us if you and I are trying to coordinate meeting up for drinks? They say, Well, why would you ever get on the phone and say, Hi, how are you doing? Are you free for drinks more?

00:12:11:18 - 00:12:32:22
Mark Herschberg
Are you free? Just text to be like drinks time date you counter with a different time date. That's much more efficient. That's how they look at it, said the whole voice. You don't need my tone. You don't need to go through formality. Hi, how are you doing to coordinate getting together for drinks so you recognize that certain types of communication say scheduling, very narrow and limited.

00:12:33:00 - 00:12:58:04
Mark Herschberg
There's other times where I say, Listen, I think there's an issue with our strategy and I'm going to lay out and all my thoughts and analysis, and that's a broader type of communication. But we use email for both of those. They go into our inbox sitting next to each other. They're in the same general format. And so we need to recognize that it might be time to split up how we do things, how we communicate.

00:12:58:04 - 00:13:22:08
Mark Herschberg
Now, the scheduling got a little easier because now the calendars, I can just propose a time on the calendar and you get this well formatted thing that can be processed. But one of the challenges, by the way, is that we now have so many communication channels. Should I be calling you, emailing you, texting you, slacking you, there's all these different channels and we might have different channel preferences because companies often don't define this.

00:13:22:10 - 00:13:27:00
Mark Herschberg
So we just have to recognize that it's it's a lot more complicated than just writing.

00:13:27:05 - 00:14:02:03
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And in the long distance leader and all the associated books, we talk about the idea of richness versus scope, which is how do we make that determination? Right? It's not just what tools we use, but why do we use which tool when in the time in the time that we have remaining. I want to talk about something that is going to cause ions to roll into the back of skulls as we talk, and that is internal networking in our company because we think of networking as, Oh, I'm looking for a job.

00:14:02:03 - 00:14:10:19
Wayne Turmel
I better network and find something. But it's critical to our careers, even internally for those of us who are gainfully employed, right?

00:14:10:23 - 00:14:35:20
Mark Herschberg
It is indeed. Unfortunately, most people think of networking as this is how I find a job, and that's the only time they think about building. Their networks are using their networks. But networks can do so much more. It can help us for our external networks outside our companies. It can help us find candidates, customers, partners. It can help us be aware of changes our industry, how to think about things.

00:14:35:22 - 00:14:58:20
Mark Herschberg
But then, as you pointed out, internal networks are so important as well because internal networks, they can do some of the same things. Certainly if you're at a big company, you might hear about job opportunities. Oh, there's a new department opening. They have a role, something you're looking forward to doing, being aware of what's happening in the company, strategic changes, understanding which way the corporate winds are blowing.

00:14:58:22 - 00:15:15:06
Mark Herschberg
Very important are networks help with all this? They help us with corporate politics. And you might not like corporate politics. Many people don't, but it's happening. It's kind of like government politics. You can say, I don't like it. You can choose not to vote. But guess what? Your life is affected by it. Your life is effectively corporate politics.

00:15:15:07 - 00:15:35:09
Mark Herschberg
Are your internal networks developing relationships with other people in the company can help you navigate the company and be more effective in your role. But now that we're not having those run ins at the WaterCooler, as you pointed out earlier, it's challenging. We have to be more proactive in building and maintaining these relationships.

00:15:35:11 - 00:16:02:04
Wayne Turmel
I think that's a huge thing for a lot of people and it's it to some degrees, it's cultural. And I'm not talking about national cultures, although some of that do, I think. But, you know, if your mother ever told you the nail that sticks its head up, gets whacked with a hammer, and if you keep your head down and do your work, the work will speak for itself, which is maybe the most terrible lie we tell people when they're when they're working.

00:16:02:08 - 00:16:20:14
Wayne Turmel
When you talk to people about this and you get the inevitable, either push back or just horrify and looks, how do you help people take the step to start being a little more interested in the politics and being a little more proactive? Because that's a huge thing.

00:16:20:17 - 00:16:41:21
Mark Herschberg
We need to reframe how we see it. And I'll use analogy with governance. We often have, no matter what country you're in, you probably have a distaste for the politics of your nation. We all hate it, but really we know we need it. We need governance. So we need to be able to elect because we don't want kings.

00:16:41:23 - 00:17:02:17
Mark Herschberg
And we also know that when done right, when we think about some of our greatest leaders, well, they really did a good job. They have changed us for the better so it can be done well. We just often focus on here's all the bad examples. And within corporate politics, if you just see it as, oh, this is bad, this is how people cheat and get ahead.

00:17:02:17 - 00:17:23:16
Mark Herschberg
And yeah, I'm not good at what I do, but I'm your buddy. So you're going to promote me? Yeah, that's a bad example. But there are also good examples where we are just using a different approach, more of a relationship oriented approach. And as long as you're not taking it to the extreme, it can actually be useful and helpful to the organization.

00:17:23:20 - 00:17:33:11
Wayne Turmel
Okay, so we are at the end of our time. I know that you have ten skills. Which one have we talked about that's most important? You got 30 seconds ago.

00:17:33:15 - 00:18:02:16
Mark Herschberg
It's not only one skill. Here's the key. By getting just a little bit better at any of these skills, you are getting incremental returns. If you get better at negotiating. For example, imagine every job you get, you're getting more money. How does it compound over time? Now that's with negotiations. It's easy to do the math, but this applies to leadership, to our networks, to any of these skills getting just a little bit better compounds over time and really helps us succeed in our careers.

00:18:02:18 - 00:18:38:03
Wayne Turmel
Dig in. And Mark Hirshberg, the book is The Career Toolkit Essential Skills for Success No One Got you. Thank you so much for being with us. I really, really enjoyed this conversation and we could geek out for a long time. Yet for the rest of you, if you are interested in learning about Mark's book, about his app Brain Bump, connecting with Mark himself, the show notes, as always, Marisa will have organized them in terrific fashion at long distance work life dot com.

00:18:38:05 - 00:19:02:04
Wayne Turmel
If you are interested in redesigning your team and thinking about your team and doing some of that development that we're talking about. Kevin Eikenberry In my new book, The Long Distance Team, Designing your Team for everyone's success is out there. You can get special deals and downloadable resources at long distance team. BBC.com You are listening to a podcast.

00:19:02:04 - 00:19:26:17
Wayne Turmel
I doubt it's your first one, so you know the drill. Please like and subscribe and tell people about it. Leave a review on your aggregator. That is always immensely helpful. And then finally, if you enjoy the show, if you don't enjoy the show, if you have ideas for way better shows, we want to hear it. Marisa is currently collecting pet peeves.

00:19:26:17 - 00:19:56:21
Wayne Turmel
You are not being shy about submitting those and that helps us plan future episodes so you can reach out to Marisa Ikenberry or myself on LinkedIn or at the email below. Links on the show notes. Thank you so much for being with us. We really hope that we're bringing you information that helps you ground yourself and survive and maintain your sanity in the changing world of work.

00:19:57:02 - 00:20:02:15
Wayne Turmel
As always, we will be back with another episode next week. Don't let the weasels get you down.

Featured Guest

Name: Mark Herschberg

About Mark: Mark Herschberg is the author of "The Career Toolkit: Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You." He is a CTO and CPO, and has been teaching at MIT for over 20 years. Mark is also the creator of the app Brain Bump, which helps people retain information from books, podcasts, and other sources.

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome: Intro to Mark Herschberg
01:09 Skill Set 101
04:48 Career Mapping in Remote Work
07:01 Career Plan Check-Ins
07:56 Skill Development Beyond School
09:19 Why Communication Matters
09:47 What is Good Communication?
10:09 Remote Work & Communication Shift
09:47 Diverse Communication Types
10:33 Remote Team Communication Hurdles
11:37 Rethinking Writing Skills
12:33 Navigating Communication Channels
14:02 Value of Internal Networking
16:20 Navigating Corporate Politics
17:33 Steps to Skill Improvement
18:38 Recommended Team Resources
20:02 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

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Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Is Asynchronous Video Killing the Meeting Star?

Marisa and Wayne discuss pet peeves related to remote meetings. They address the issue of team members not turning on their cameras during meetings and the value of having cameras on. Wayne explains that while there are advantages to being on camera, it's important to consider the context and purpose of the meeting. For larger groups, the value of seeing everyone may be limited, but for smaller teams, having cameras on can enhance engagement and collaboration. They also discuss the responsibility of the audience to pay attention and the importance of being present during meetings.

The conversation then shifts to the topic of recording presentations and sending them out for asynchronous viewing. Wayne suggests that while this can be a useful alternative to meetings, it's important for individuals to take responsibility for engaging with the content and not simply ignore it. They also explore the idea of using asynchronous video as a form of communication, highlighting its potential benefits in terms of richness and accessibility.

Key Takeaways

1. Cameras on during meetings can enhance engagement and collaboration in smaller teams.
2. The responsibility of the audience is to pay attention and actively participate in meetings.
3. Asynchronous video can be a valuable form of communication, providing a richer experience than email or written messages.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:19:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife. Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:19:05 - 00:00:20:21
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marisa. How are you?

00:00:20:22 - 00:00:22:05
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00:00:22:07 - 00:00:27:15
Wayne Turmel
I am well, actually, this is I think this is going to be a fun conversation.

00:00:27:17 - 00:00:55:16
Marisa Eikenberry
It usually is when we talk about pet peeves. But that being said, we had some of you send in pet peeves about meeting specifically. And so we're still continuing to dive into those, including in this episode. So I'm going to start with one that we got from Facebook from Brianne and it says It's been three years since the pandemic and I would have better luck demanding that someone procure me a unicorn before getting every single team member on a call with their camera on.

00:00:55:18 - 00:01:10:22
Marisa Eikenberry
So I know that we've talked several times about if it's a town hall kind of situation. Not everybody needs their cameras on. But what about if it's a team of three or four people and you're wanting engagement? Like, what can we do to get cameras on? Should we be trying to get cameras on?

00:01:11:01 - 00:01:26:21
Wayne Turmel
Oh, man, this quest, it's so funny. Before the pandemic, we push and push And push what? Your camera on. Put your camera and get people to put their camera on. And then they did. During the pandemic, some begrudgingly, some willingly. And we were.

00:01:26:21 - 00:01:27:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Lonely.

00:01:27:07 - 00:01:48:01
Wayne Turmel
It's kind of weird because we're desperate for human companionship, and any pork in the storm is fine. But then it's kind of reverted. And I'm going to say there are two parts to this conversation, right? The first part is, are there advantages to being on camera? The answer is, of course there are.

00:01:48:05 - 00:01:49:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:01:49:02 - 00:02:24:23
Wayne Turmel
Right. And it's funny because most people like seeing the other party. They just don't like being on camera. Right now, it is true that the larger the group, the less value there is in seeing everybody, because we are working from home. It's also possibly true that depending on time zones and what's going on in the place that you live and work, that there may be distractions and things going on that don't work really well.

00:02:25:02 - 00:02:56:16
Wayne Turmel
You know, I just got back from the gym. You know, the kids are running around. It's lunchtime and I've got to eat. Nobody needs to see that. All of those things are the kind of excuses that we get. And you need to stop and say, Why don't I want to be on camera? Some of it is, as you know, if I'm trying to present information and out of the corner of my eye, I see four people all kind of answering emails and visibly checking notes.

00:02:56:21 - 00:03:30:11
Wayne Turmel
Well, there are two sides to that coin. The one coin, the one side is, yeah, it's this whole thing is mostly going to be me talking, and it doesn't add a lot of value because most people are going to be passively listening. So do I need to see that? The other side of that, of course, is if you can't be trusted to pay attention and focus when the camera's on, you, what makes you think I am going to trust that you are paying attention when I can't?

00:03:30:13 - 00:03:49:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. To your point, like I have heard about, I don't agree with this, but I have heard about people who, when it is, you know, a town hall type meeting and maybe it's something where they don't have to have cameras on or whatever. They're posting pictures on LinkedIn of, oh, look at me cooking dinner while I'm listening to this town hall or something like that feels weird to me.

00:03:49:09 - 00:03:52:12
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm sorry. And that might be an unpopular opinion.

00:03:52:14 - 00:04:23:05
Wayne Turmel
Well, it gets back to something we spoke about a week or two ago on this very podcast, which what is your responsibility when you are allowed to work from home? You are being asked to do certain things and certain things are inside your bailiwick. I have a kind of rule that if I wouldn't do it in the conference room with everybody there, why would I do it?

00:04:23:07 - 00:04:24:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely.

00:04:24:07 - 00:04:47:14
Wayne Turmel
When I'm working from home, do I you know, if I'm in the conference room, do I check my phone more than I should? Sure. I do. But I'm also there and I'm, you know, at least paying some attention to the person who's speaking. If you are turning off your camera because you don't want to get busted doing something, why are you doing something you don't want to get busted for?

00:04:47:14 - 00:04:49:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Like, use your head.

00:04:49:12 - 00:05:04:04
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, one quick. Oh, somebody sends a teams message and you respond real quick. Nobody cares. Nobody cares about that. What they care about is if you are very obvious, as, like, not paying any attention.

00:05:04:06 - 00:05:04:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:05:04:20 - 00:05:28:09
Wayne Turmel
So this becomes does the camera need to be on for all of this? Right. Is the question. Well, I think that again, where does it add value? Where it adds value is seeing people reading their body language. So on team meetings, for example. I'm a big fan of everybody has their camera on at the beginning, everybody says hello.

00:05:28:14 - 00:05:52:14
Wayne Turmel
Everybody greets everybody. And then as the meeting goes on, you know, if you need to eat, if you have something going on, right, then there's no need to be on camera because it's stressful being on camera for an hour and worrying about where do I put my hands and oh, look, I'm paying attention, but I need to look like I'm paying.

00:05:52:14 - 00:05:58:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Attention, right? Or like I really am writing notes about whatever this is, but I don't want to look like I'm not paying attention. Yeah.

00:05:58:17 - 00:06:25:03
Wayne Turmel
God forbid. I'm actually looking up and referring to something that we're talking about, right? I mean, you are a machine. When we are on meetings, if we just average the dual screens, everybody needs a Marisa anyway in their life. But, you know, if we're talking about something. And so when was that meeting that we had 30 seconds later up in the chat, Marisa will have the answer to that.

00:06:25:04 - 00:06:31:18
Wayne Turmel
She's quite wonderful about that. But if the camera was on her all the time, you see a lot of her looking off.

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:32:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, yeah.

00:06:32:06 - 00:06:33:00
Wayne Turmel
So I do it.

00:06:33:02 - 00:06:39:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Because, you know, I've got a screen here, but I have a screen here too, which is usually where I've got whatever I'm looking up.

00:06:39:06 - 00:07:02:11
Wayne Turmel
Right. But if I'm paranoid about whether or not whereas is paying attention, that could be sending the wrong message. Mm hmm. Some of this is what is the responsibility of the audience? The responsibility of the audience is to pay attention, to contribute to the work to do. You need to be on camera all the time. No, you don't.

00:07:02:13 - 00:07:12:08
Wayne Turmel
And if you constantly refuse to be on camera, if this becomes a thing at some point, why?

00:07:12:10 - 00:07:13:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:13:08 - 00:07:22:03
Wayne Turmel
Why don't you want to be on camera? Why don't you want to help your teammates connect with you? Well, I don't want to.

00:07:22:05 - 00:07:23:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Is not a good enough reason.

00:07:23:16 - 00:07:25:08
Wayne Turmel
It's not a great reason.

00:07:25:09 - 00:07:28:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Stop being a baby and turn camera on.

00:07:28:12 - 00:07:54:06
Wayne Turmel
Now, again, do you need to do it all the time? No. This should be something that is discussed and agreed. If you are doing a brainstorming meeting where it's really important that people see each other and make sure that we understand what the other person is saying. My rule generally is the bigger the audience, the less important it is that the passive audience members be on camera.

00:07:54:08 - 00:08:10:14
Wayne Turmel
The smaller the group. And this goes back to the richness of the communication, the smaller the group, the more active the discussion, the more we need to collaborate and cooperate, the more I want to see who I'm working with.

00:08:10:16 - 00:08:29:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. Well, and we talked about this off off this recording, but it was this idea of, you know, well, I don't want people looking at me. I don't want my boss to see me, even if it's on a one on one. And it was like, do you walk into a conference room with a bag on your head? Because if you don't, the what are we talking and.

00:08:29:11 - 00:08:42:05
Wayne Turmel
And it also is part of your responsibility as a worker. I mean, the most common thing is, well, I'm not really dressed to be on camera. You knew there was a meeting today. And if you help.

00:08:42:05 - 00:08:45:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Out to one. Okay. But like.

00:08:45:10 - 00:09:03:07
Wayne Turmel
If the boss says, I need to talk to you for a second and you say, well, I'm not really camera ready. And she says, I don't care. I just need to talk to you for 2 seconds. That's a different conversation. But if, you know, there is a meeting at 10:00 in the morning and you're still in your pajamas.

00:09:03:12 - 00:09:06:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Get a pajamas, you're going to be done.

00:09:06:08 - 00:09:08:01
Wayne Turmel
I'm going to get judgy.

00:09:08:03 - 00:09:09:10
Marisa Eikenberry
But do it.

00:09:09:12 - 00:09:29:22
Wayne Turmel
Particularly if there are people in the office who have had to shower and dress and commute and do all the rest of that stuff. And again, you only need to be dressed from the belly button up. How lazy are you that you can't put on a shirt with buttons when you know there's a meeting?

00:09:30:00 - 00:09:51:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and in the interest of time, I'm going to pivot a little bit to our next question, but it's related to what we're talking about. So Mike McBride from LinkedIn says, you know, it's not necessary to have a screen full of people who are clearly reading and responding to email while others are presenting information. Just record the presentation and ask for written feedback so we can all go back to working.

00:09:51:19 - 00:09:57:04
Marisa Eikenberry
So yeah, I mean, we've talked about this secret as before. Yeah. This actually video.

00:09:57:06 - 00:10:22:00
Wayne Turmel
When you told me that this question was coming, I actually got jazzed because it's a conversation that we haven't had on this podcast and is worthy of discussion. Mm hmm. So I'm going to kind of take this in a couple of parts. You know, a bunch of people are paying attention. The message obviously isn't that riveting. They're probably making announcement of some kind.

00:10:22:02 - 00:10:25:02
Wayne Turmel
Does that need to be a meeting, period?

00:10:25:04 - 00:10:26:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And that's a good question.

00:10:27:04 - 00:10:33:23
Wayne Turmel
And these are the same people, though, who say things like, I just survived another meeting. That could have been an email.

00:10:34:01 - 00:10:34:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:10:34:16 - 00:10:50:17
Wayne Turmel
And when we talk to the managers and say everybody says this could have been an email, why did you hold a meeting? And their answer, in all seriousness and with tears in their eyes, is because nobody reads the damn email.

00:10:50:19 - 00:11:14:18
Marisa Eikenberry
I was on a meeting once, thankfully not for this company, but I was on a meeting once where they set a Google document that they wanted everybody to read, and because they could not confirm that people were going to read the document, they had a meeting where they literally verbatim read the document. Now, granted, I want to take forks and poke my eyes out, but I understood why they did that.

00:11:14:20 - 00:11:47:06
Wayne Turmel
Right. So, again, do we need a meeting to make this particular announcement? Possibly not. But what was really interesting at the end of Mike's comment is, can you just record it, send it, and ask everybody to acknowledge that they've seen it? Well, we know that that's no guarantee that anybody has actually read or understood. And it does, though, raise the specter of we're really big on asynchronous communication.

00:11:47:08 - 00:12:00:17
Wayne Turmel
Right. Send chat messages. People don't need to respond to written things right away. You can communicate this. We can contribute to meetings. You can do things. What we haven't talked about is asynchronous video.

00:12:00:20 - 00:12:03:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Which has been such a big topic lately.

00:12:03:08 - 00:12:26:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, it's funny. It's a big topic now. I remember ten years ago people telling me that video email was going to be the wave of the future that you would push a button and the camera would come on and you could say, Hey, Marisa, I need you to do this, this and this today. You know, if you have any questions, give me a call.

00:12:26:22 - 00:12:53:02
Wayne Turmel
Click set. And it was clunky and it was huge and it never really caught on because it's time consuming, right, to do that kind of stuff. But now that we work in a hybrid world, now that the bandwidth and things aren't nearly the problem that they used to be, and the fact that everybody has cameras on their phone and you don't need a great setup to do that.

00:12:53:04 - 00:13:23:14
Wayne Turmel
Is there value in making a richer form of communication than another email? I know one organization where every morning the manager records a12 minute video. Hey, good morning. I'm out of the office today. Here's what you need to know. If you need to get to know me. You can reach me here. And by the way, don't forget, we have a meeting on Friday, and I need everybody to read that thing.

00:13:23:17 - 00:13:24:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay, Fair.

00:13:24:14 - 00:13:51:21
Wayne Turmel
And it's very short, but she sends that out every morning. And, yeah, you can do read receipts and you can see if it's been clicked on. You can see who read it, and you can do all of that, you know, semi fascist documentation stuff. But if you develop a rhythm and if people demonstrate that they do in fact treat these messages seriously and do take the required action.

00:13:51:23 - 00:13:52:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:13:52:21 - 00:13:59:11
Wayne Turmel
It's not a bad idea. It's something to think about. Slack, for example, could not be easier.

00:13:59:13 - 00:14:10:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. They even add captions to the video or transcripts To the video. I don't remember when they did that, but like, there's another accessibility point that isn't there in a regular meeting usually.

00:14:10:09 - 00:14:40:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, I'm not walking around with subtitles of clearing, of course, on my shirt, although Lord knows, I probably should. So we have these forms of communication. People are becoming more and more comfortable. Certainly generationally, people face time and do all kinds of things video wise. Tik Tok. So it's actually asynchronous video is something worth exploring, you know, even if it's a monday morning.

00:14:40:16 - 00:15:09:14
Wayne Turmel
Hi, it's Monday. Here we go, team. How are you? Right. Or if you want to send a quick message to your boss. Right. Hey, I've got a question. Can we do this? You know, it's just. But it needs to be short and it needs to be easily accessed, which means it needs to be a link in teams or Slack, something that no matter what their device on, they can click it and watch it.

00:15:09:16 - 00:15:13:19
Wayne Turmel
The more hassle it is, the less valuable it's going to be.

00:15:13:21 - 00:15:30:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, I was going to add on to this, too, because, I mean, you know, we were talking about video and this idea of like some people, like I don't want to be on camera or whatever, which we've already set our pieces on that. But I do know that some of these platforms also allow audio clips, too. So maybe whatever you're talking about, you don't need it to be a video.

00:15:30:21 - 00:15:43:07
Marisa Eikenberry
To your point, you know, Hey, I got a real quick thing for my boss, but it's way easier to explain it than it is to type it out here. I'll just send an audio clip really quick and then you don't even have to mess with the video part at all if you didn't want to.

00:15:43:10 - 00:16:08:02
Wayne Turmel
The problem with that, of course, is that we have an entire generation of these darn kids with their rock and roll and their Foo Fighters who don't listen to voice mail, which again, there is no excuse for that. It is a tool. It is an expectation of the job you don't like. It is not a legitimate excuse.

00:16:08:04 - 00:16:16:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay. But as the one of the kids with the rock and roll, if I'm not listening to voice mail, wouldn't I also not turn on a video too?

00:16:16:19 - 00:16:26:16
Wayne Turmel
Which is where Mike's point about accountable and he comes in. Right. If you don't want meetings that don't have to be meetings.

00:16:26:18 - 00:16:27:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:16:27:13 - 00:16:42:04
Wayne Turmel
If you say I'm not an idiot, just tell me what you want and I'll do it. Then you'd better do it. Because if you don't, we are going back to entire meetings where I read the memo to everybody.

00:16:42:06 - 00:17:05:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and I can't help but come back to this idea, too. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a here. I'll watch the video on my own time or listen to the audio clip in my own time. Like, I get all that. But regardless, the time is spent. Either way, if it's a 20 minute meeting or a 20 minute video that you watch asynchronously later, it's still 20 minutes that you have now spent.

00:17:05:07 - 00:17:26:17
Marisa Eikenberry
So it's like, is it better if it's already scheduled and you're, quote unquote, forced to do it rather than, okay, yeah, I'm going to try to make time in my schedule to watch this 20 minute video at some point, which I think sometimes might also be why some of these videos and audios and things like that don't get watched or listened to.

00:17:26:19 - 00:17:53:10
Wayne Turmel
They don't watch videos, but they don't read the email and they don't pay attention in the meeting. I mean, if you are blithely ignoring communication that's on you at some point, that's a performance management issue, right? If your boss is sending emails of your teammates or sending out emails and you start every meeting with, I didn't see that right.

00:17:53:14 - 00:17:55:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, how do you expect your job to.

00:17:55:19 - 00:18:04:11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, that's a performance management issue. At that point you are not taking your responsibility. The rest of the world can only do so much.

00:18:04:17 - 00:18:06:23
Marisa Eikenberry
We can give you all the tools.

00:18:07:01 - 00:18:21:04
Wayne Turmel
We have all the tools at our disposal. There is no excuse for not getting a message anymore except time and attention. And that is on you. And that's end of the lesson.

00:18:21:06 - 00:18:25:18
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes, we could wax poetic about this for ever, but.

00:18:25:20 - 00:18:27:21
Wayne Turmel
Whatever it is that we're waxing.

00:18:27:23 - 00:18:47:01
Marisa Eikenberry
You know. Yes. So, anyway, I do want to thank Brianne and Mike for sending in their pet peeves for meetings. And we have a few more that we're going to go into. And I'm so excited to get to those as well. But, Wayne, thank you so much for talking to us about these two very important topics and listeners.

00:18:47:01 - 00:19:02:14
Marisa Eikenberry
I hope that you got a ton out of it and thank you for listening to the long distance work life for shownotes transcripts and other resources. Make sure to visit us at long distance work life dot com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review.

00:19:02:16 - 00:19:14:16
Marisa Eikenberry
This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our shownotes. And let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic or pet peeve for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00:19:14:16 - 00:19:28:13
Wayne Turmel
And if you haven't figured it out by now, Marisa actually pays really close attention to that stuff. We are digging what we're hearing from you. So questions, pet peeves, vicious personal attacks. Bring it.

00:19:28:15 - 00:19:45:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Follow me on all the social media. I yes, I will bring you all the stuff you like to learn more about Remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long Distance Team. You can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team Book Dotcom. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
00:19 Discussion about getting team members to turn on their cameras
02:25 Advantages and disadvantages of having cameras on during meetings
03:30 Importance of trust and attention during meetings
04:23 Responsibility of remote workers during meetings
05:28 Value of seeing body language and greetings at the beginning of meetings
06:25 Challenges of being on camera for long periods of time
07:02 Importance of active discussion and collaboration in smaller groups
07:25 Addressing concerns about appearance and being seen by others
08:45 Responsibility of workers to be prepared for meetings
09:03 Dressing appropriately for video meetings
09:30 Importance of considering if a meeting is necessary
09:51 Recording presentations and asking for written feedback
10:22Exploring asynchronous communication and video
12:00 The value of asynchronous video communication
13:23Using short daily videos for communication
14:10 Accessibility benefits of video transcripts
15:09 Exploring audio clips as an alternative to video
16:42 Accountability and the need for meetings
17:05 Considering the time spent on meetings and videos
17:26 Ignoring communication is a performance management issue.
18:07 No excuse for not getting a message anymore.
18:47 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

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Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

The Spider-Man Paradox: How Remote Workers Balance Power and Responsibility

Marisa and Wayne discuss the Spider-Man Paradox, which is the idea that with great power comes great responsibility. They explore the responsibility that remote workers have in managing their own schedules and demonstrating their trustworthiness to their employers. They emphasize the importance of proactive communication, setting expectations, and taking ownership of one's work. They also discuss the need for remote workers to take responsibility for their own development and seek out opportunities for growth.

Key Takeaways

1. Remote workers have the power to control their own schedules, but they also have the responsibility to demonstrate their trustworthiness.
2. Proactive communication and setting expectations are essential for building trust with employers.
3. Remote workers should take ownership of their work and be proactive in seeking out opportunities for growth and development.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:18:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:18:18 - 00:00:21:03
Wayne Turmel
Hi. That would be me. Yes.

00:00:21:05 - 00:00:37:17
Marisa Eikenberry
So today we're actually talking about something that you've talked about several times, including on this podcast, which is called the Spider-Man Paradox. And we're going to talk about what remote workers can learn from Spider-Man, basically. So let's dive right into what exactly is the Spider-Man paradox anyway?

00:00:37:19 - 00:01:05:13
Wayne Turmel
Well, the Spider-Man paradox on some level is an old man trying to sound relevant, but what it truly is, is there is this line in Spider-Man, canon and mythos and keeps showing up in all the origins stories. And that is, as you know, Uncle Ben is dying. And he says to Peter, with great power comes great responsibility. Right.

00:01:05:13 - 00:01:20:02
Wayne Turmel
And that is good advice anyway. But it generally gets directed to managers and leaders. And I am going to stir the pot a little bit, which is so unlike me.

00:01:20:06 - 00:01:22:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. We never do that on the show.

00:01:22:07 - 00:01:52:06
Wayne Turmel
But here's the deal. A lot of remote work advocates, a lot of remote work literature, talks about people's right to work from home, people's need to balance their lives and the power that we have to control our own schedules and to manage our time a little bit differently and get some of our life back. That's great power. But there is also responsibility associated with that.

00:01:52:09 - 00:01:56:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. It's not entitled things that we just have access to.

00:01:56:17 - 00:02:21:06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, a lot of the remote work literature support stuff just sounds really entitled. And I have heard from several employers legitimately want to make this thing work, but they're like every time we make a request of the people who work from home, we're the bad guy.

00:02:21:08 - 00:02:24:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. And sometimes it's warranted.

00:02:24:07 - 00:02:53:14
Wayne Turmel
And sometimes it's warranted. I will be the last person to constantly leap to the defense of employers and, you know, corporations and like that. And workers have a responsibility here. And I have found myself doing it of late. I've been working from home for the better part of 20 years, you know, as far as I know. Our boss, Kevin, has no worries about the way I work or whatever.

00:02:53:19 - 00:03:10:07
Wayne Turmel
But I remember one afternoon I was eating lunch and my phone pinged and Kevin was like, Where are you? And I'm sitting on the couch eating a sandwich watching sports center. And it's like, how dare he question whether I'm working right?

00:03:10:11 - 00:03:14:03
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm eating lunch right now. This is my time. But it's not that right.

00:03:14:04 - 00:03:34:19
Wayne Turmel
It's like I'm sitting at home. I got a ham sandwich stuffed in my face. I'm watching Sports Center, and it's like, how is this for a how is he supposed to know that? And B, if I said to him, I'm on the couch watching SportsCenter, what do you want? Wouldn't make me sound like a really involved, committed worker.

00:03:34:19 - 00:03:40:01
Wayne Turmel
Right? And by the way, lunch had run a little long. To be fair.

00:03:40:03 - 00:03:42:04
Marisa Eikenberry
That SportsCenter must have been really good that day.

00:03:42:06 - 00:03:51:15
Wayne Turmel
Yes, In general, I am very you know, I'm committed and I'm a good worker and all of that stuff. And sometimes not so much.

00:03:51:17 - 00:03:52:20
Marisa Eikenberry
We all have our days, right?

00:03:52:20 - 00:04:16:16
Wayne Turmel
We all have our days. So do we accept that with all of this newfound stuff that we didn't have until fairly recently? Mm hmm. Right. Usually when you went to work, you physically went to another location, you went to work, you stayed there for the required amount of time to get paid, and then you came home.

00:04:16:18 - 00:04:17:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:17:05 - 00:04:43:12
Wayne Turmel
Well, we now have considerably more power than we had, and there's a responsibility that goes with that. Now, it can get a little tricky because all some organizations are addressing that by and I'm putting this in imaginary air quotes by making them earn the right to work from home.

00:04:43:14 - 00:04:45:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. I've heard that a lot.

00:04:45:17 - 00:04:54:17
Wayne Turmel
Which I know what they mean when they say that. Have you demonstrated rated sufficient skills that you can be left on?

00:04:54:19 - 00:04:55:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Will we trust them?

00:04:56:01 - 00:05:09:08
Wayne Turmel
Can we trust you? And trust, as I have said so many times, is evidence based. Right. Scripture will tell you that faith is the evidence of things. Unseen trust actually requires.

00:05:09:10 - 00:05:09:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Some.

00:05:09:17 - 00:05:10:19
Wayne Turmel
Backup.

00:05:10:21 - 00:05:14:23
Marisa Eikenberry
And yeah, it's not just like inherently you've been hired, so therefore, we trust you.

00:05:15:00 - 00:05:37:14
Wayne Turmel
Right. It's, you know your job well enough. Right? If you have a question, can you get it answered? If you're in the office with the manager, the answer is usually pretty quick. Mm hmm. You know, we're not going to make you work from home and then not give you resources and help you get your work. Of course. So there are lots of ways that organizations are doing that, bringing people in at first.

00:05:37:16 - 00:06:00:10
Wayne Turmel
Gradually, you can work from home one day to day. If it looks like there's no problem in your performance is good and your production is fine, we extend the leash, right? So there's lots of ways to do that. But a lot of people who work from home get very defensive about this notion of What do you mean I am responsible?

00:06:00:14 - 00:06:06:17
Wayne Turmel
How dare they question my work ethic? How dare they question whether I'm working? You know.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:30:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, there's a there's a bit on both sides. So I guess with this. So I know that one of the things that you've talked about, you know, talking about things like it's not all on the employer, like there's responsibility between need to be doing as well. So how can we demonstrate these responsibilities? How can we act on these responsibilities so that way, you know, our employers do trust us.

00:06:30:06 - 00:06:36:13
Marisa Eikenberry
So that, you know, as you've said in a previous episode and I'll I'll link it in the show notes that, like, we don't screw this up.

00:06:36:14 - 00:06:47:04
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I think a lot of it goes back to the three piece model that we've talked about before from a long distance team, and Marisa will have.

00:06:47:04 - 00:06:48:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Links.

00:06:48:11 - 00:07:07:13
Wayne Turmel
To all of that good stuff. But the three part P model says to be a great teammate, you need to be productive, you need to be proactive and you need to take a long term view and see the potential in the third piece. And proactivity is really a part of this. Does your boss know when to expect you there?

00:07:07:13 - 00:07:22:02
Wayne Turmel
You know, it's one thing to say, Oh, it's the middle of the day. I'm going to make a quick target running them out. It's another thing to actually say, I'm going to be out of the office for an hour. Yeah, it's a simple thing, but then they're not worried about it.

00:07:22:04 - 00:07:41:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, it's like you just talked about earlier with, you know, lunch and stuff like that. And it's like, well, how is Gavin supposed to know that you're eating lunch like, I know many of us on our team do it. I know I do it specifically, too, but like, I put up a slack statuses as I'm eating lunch and I put my do not disturb on for an hour and everybody knows that if they need me, I'll come back in an hour.

00:07:41:19 - 00:07:53:23
Wayne Turmel
And it does two things. First of all, oh, she's not there. So if I need something right away, I'll go bug somebody else. Right. But the other thing is, here's why I'm not here and here's when to expect me home.

00:07:54:01 - 00:07:54:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:54:12 - 00:08:07:13
Wayne Turmel
Home to the office. Dr. Freud. To the front desk, please. But it's those little things, right? Because you got to think. What is the other person? What does the other person know?

00:08:07:16 - 00:08:10:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. They go back to the. You're not there.

00:08:10:11 - 00:08:27:10
Wayne Turmel
It goes back to the Johari window. We talked about her. I know where I am. I know that I did yeoman service on that project before I left. So I don't feel bad about taking a break, but they don't. All they know is they have a question. And when it's not there, he's supposed to be there. What's he doing?

00:08:27:12 - 00:08:33:07
Wayne Turmel
Oh, he's not answering me. As opposed to, Oh, he's at lunch. I'll bug him right, later on.

00:08:33:09 - 00:08:35:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, you're on a client call or whatever. It doesn't matter.

00:08:35:13 - 00:08:43:06
Wayne Turmel
You're taking you're taking responsibility for not creating problems that don't need to be there.

00:08:43:10 - 00:08:46:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, you're. You're communicating what's going on? So then. Right.

00:08:46:17 - 00:08:58:18
Wayne Turmel
One of the things one of the things that we don't do often enough is check with our managers about the priorities of things, because it's not. Are you working? It's. What are you working on?

00:08:58:20 - 00:09:08:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Yeah. If you've been on a rabbit hole for something that was not a high priority, but this other project that needs to be done next week is been left drowning in a corner.

00:09:08:07 - 00:09:27:15
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I do this fairly frequently. You know, we've established on this show, Kevin and I are in different time zones, and so my day starts very early by West Coast standards, and every morning I send them a quick hello. Sometimes I send them a hello. Here's what I'm working on today.

00:09:27:16 - 00:09:28:10
Marisa Eikenberry
That way he knows.

00:09:28:10 - 00:09:44:07
Wayne Turmel
It's not a big deal. It's just he knows if I'm not terribly active on Slack, if I'm not, you know, if I've got my Do not disturb on whatever, he at least knows what's going on. And unless he has a problem with it, he trusts me to do what he needs to do.

00:09:44:09 - 00:10:06:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I know. I've had situations where, you know, I mean, pretty much my entire job is task based. I don't do a lot of meetings other than like this. And so there are times that I get overwhelmed with tasks. And when Kevin was my manager, although now Adrian is, I would be like, okay, here's my task list, but I don't know what the bigger picture is and how these tasks relate.

00:10:06:20 - 00:10:14:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Can you help me decide what the priority of this is? Because right now I'm looking at the list and going, all of it needs done and I don't know where to start.

00:10:14:15 - 00:10:38:13
Wayne Turmel
Well, there's a perfect example, though. You have said, help me with this. I have given you let's say I'm your manager. I have given you guidance on this. You obviously know what needs to be done. I have given you the guidance. You acknowledge that? Silly me. I'm going to assume that when we ring off, you are actually going to work on those things, right?

00:10:38:15 - 00:10:47:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and, you know, taking the responsibility of, hey, I know this needs done, but I need help like asking for help is not something that we do very often either.

00:10:47:10 - 00:10:55:22
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that's a problem. That's part of the proactivity thing, right? Is we get really caught in the headlights sometimes.

00:10:56:00 - 00:10:56:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:10:57:00 - 00:11:11:13
Wayne Turmel
And we don't want to look like we don't know what we're doing. We don't want to appear helpless and stupid. We think somehow we'll just magically figure it out until it's too late. Now it's a problem.

00:11:11:14 - 00:11:20:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. We're so afraid of seeming like we're incompetent or we don't know how or how to do our jobs that later we look like we're incompetent. Don't know how to do our jobs.

00:11:20:17 - 00:11:45:20
Wayne Turmel
Now, some of this is if you are proactive about communicating, you know, like I say, Kevin and I talk by chat at least once a day. Some days that's all it is. But we do it every day. And because I know where he is, he publishes his schedule and lets people know. And we're very good about letting everybody know where we are and what's going on.

00:11:46:00 - 00:12:12:15
Wayne Turmel
It's fairly easy to be proactive. I know when he's there. I know that he's, you know, he's in the office today, so if I have a question, I can probably get him sharing schedules, letting people know who's where. And especially when you're in a hybrid situation where some days you're in the office, some days you're not. Some days those days are scheduled, some days it's, you know, left up to the gods.

00:12:12:16 - 00:12:13:17
Wayne Turmel
Right.

00:12:13:19 - 00:12:32:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. But I mean, to the to your point, so, you know, I'm a hybrid employee. I think at this point, I'm the only hybrid employee that our company has. Just because I'm in Indianapolis. And so, you know, most of the team knows I'm in the office Tuesday and Thursday. Sometimes I'm not in on a Tuesday or Thursday because Kevin's traveling or whatever.

00:12:32:22 - 00:12:55:11
Marisa Eikenberry
And so I know sometimes I'll get a message. Are you in the RH today or as we referring to you, remarkable house. And you know, sometimes the answer is yes, because they need something, you know, that they can only be found in remarkable house. And I'm right there to be able to answer it. And so while I don't publish that necessary, I do have on my Google calendar, if somebody looked, they would be able to know.

00:12:55:13 - 00:13:09:04
Marisa Eikenberry
But but like I don't change my slack status to say I'm in the office today or not because it's typical that if it's a Tuesday or Thursday, I'm probably there and maybe I should. But also, as we're talking, I should probably communicate that more than I usually do.

00:13:09:07 - 00:13:36:19
Wayne Turmel
But all teams develop a rhythm. But so to get back to Spiderman, I mean, the big thing is what is your responsibility as the employee? Right. It's no great mystery that the more engaged you are and the more you like your coworkers and the more you like your work, the more of that you tend to do, right? You tend to own it When here's what I would say.

00:13:36:22 - 00:13:54:04
Wayne Turmel
Going to dig this too much, but that's okay if you are being called out before you get your hackles up. As with any feedback, is it valid? Right. Right. Are you in fact, you know, my boss doesn't trust me. He says as he's driving to Starbucks.

00:13:54:06 - 00:13:55:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Know thyself is.

00:13:55:14 - 00:13:59:10
Wayne Turmel
Going. Right. How dare he not think I'm working?

00:13:59:12 - 00:14:04:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Have I given them reason to believe that I am not working? Oh, well. Okay.

00:14:04:12 - 00:14:18:19
Wayne Turmel
And. And what has to happen at that point is the coaching conversation. And this needs to come from both the manager and the employee is. What do you need to say?

00:14:18:21 - 00:14:19:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:14:19:23 - 00:14:30:05
Wayne Turmel
What are you seeing that is creating this lack of trust? And what do you need to see? What would establish that trust and make you comfortable?

00:14:30:07 - 00:14:32:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, we're not mind readers.

00:14:32:17 - 00:15:02:01
Wayne Turmel
And it may be as simple as use your status updates and keep people apprized. It might be as simple as you know, if you're going to do something out of the or if you go spend your day doing something out of the ordinary, you need to be heads down over a project or whatever. Send up a flare, let the team know, let your manager know so that there isn't all this whitespace that gets filled up with paranoia and not knowing.

00:15:02:03 - 00:15:23:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, so, you know, we just talked about the responsibilities of remote workers and how it's not all on the employer, but like one of the responsibilities as remote workers, as workers in general is our own development. So now that you know, you're not in the office anymore, so it's not quite as easy as, okay, I'm the boss, I'm sending you to training.

00:15:23:11 - 00:15:28:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Like how can remote workers improve the development on their own? Like what are some. Yeah, they can do.

00:15:28:21 - 00:15:47:01
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that gets to the third P in the model. The potential is if you want to get better at your job, if you want a better job, if you want a career track, you have always owned that. Ultimately that's always been on you.

00:15:47:03 - 00:15:47:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:15:47:22 - 00:16:16:05
Wayne Turmel
And it's been easier to do when everybody is in the office and everybody goes to the same training together. And and there's this constant visibility and these little side conversations and things that support those behaviors. You don't have those, right? So when they send out notifications, hey, there's this class coming up, it's really easy to delete it and go back to work right?

00:16:16:09 - 00:16:51:21
Wayne Turmel
Right. Is this something I need to do? Is this something I could benefit from? Have I taken any classes this year? Because if not, whether I think I need them or not. And that's a question you really should be examining, whether I think I need it or not. What message does it send? Yeah, I am not working visibly, noticeably working on things that are important to the leader, to the organization, to the perception of me as an engaged, committed employee.

00:16:51:21 - 00:16:56:22
Wayne Turmel
I have the responsibility to look like I care.

00:16:57:00 - 00:17:19:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and back to your proactivity point. Like not only is it, you know, hey, this class is available, you know, should I take it kind of thing. But you can also find your own courses, trainings, webinars, whatever. And you know, you may tell your manager, Hey, I just found out about this webinar on X, Y, Z. You know, I'm going to attend that on Friday and I will let you know what I learn.

00:17:19:05 - 00:17:39:13
Wayne Turmel
And by the way, a great thing to do is to share that with your teammates. If your group has a Slack or a microsoft teams channel on cool stuff like family or learning stuff, whatever you want to call that, right? Some people call it the so.

00:17:39:14 - 00:17:42:02
Marisa Eikenberry
I think we call ours continuous learning.

00:17:42:04 - 00:17:57:19
Wayne Turmel
Well, that sounds appropriately consultant ish, right? But we share that with each other. And hey, I'm going to be at this class, I'm going to be on this webinar. So not only don't come to me until it's over.

00:17:57:19 - 00:17:58:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:17:58:14 - 00:18:32:01
Wayne Turmel
Right. But also if you want to know about this, I'll share the slides. I'll give you the recording link, I'll do whatever is the appropriate thing to do. So to wrap this up, the Spider-Man paradox essentially is this thing about with great power comes great responsibility. And yes, as leaders, we have a great responsibility and as remote workers, we need to own more than we often do.

00:18:32:01 - 00:18:34:21
Wayne Turmel
If we're going to make this a success.

00:18:35:00 - 00:18:55:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Absolutely. Wayne, thank you so much for talking to us about this. I'm actually going to link a video in our Shownotes listeners about Wayne talking about this quite a while ago about lessons from Spider-Man for remote workers. There's a couple of things that we didn't get to cover today, so hopefully that'll fill in some extra gaps. But listeners, thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life for notes, transcripts and other resources.

00:18:55:12 - 00:19:15:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit long distance work life dot com if you haven't yet subscribed to the show so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes and let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

00:19:15:15 - 00:19:28:16
Marisa Eikenberry
We'd love to hear from you. And if you'd like to learn more about remote teams or Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at LongDistanceTeamBook.com. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction
00:00:37 Explanation of the Spider-Man Paradox
00:02:21 Remote workers getting defensive about responsibility
00:03:10 Demonstrating responsibility as remote workers
00:05:09 Trust is evidence-based
00:06:00 Three P model
00:07:07 Being proactive in communication with boss
00:07:41 Using Slack statuses to communicate availability
00:08:07 Importance of considering what others know
00:08:27 Misunderstandings when communication is lacking
00:08:27 Proactive communication and taking responsibility for creating problems
00:08:46 Checking with managers about priorities of tasks
00:09:27 Communicating daily tasks and work progress to managers
00:10:06 Asking for help and guidance when overwhelmed with tasks
00:10:38 Fear of looking incompetent leads to inaction and problems
00:11:46 Establishing a rhythm and clear communication within teams
00:12:12 Hybrid work situations and the need for schedule transparency
00:13:09 Need for better communication regarding office presence
00:14:04 Reflecting on one's own actions and trustworthiness
00:15:23 Taking ownership of personal development and career growth
00:16:57 Finding and sharing your own courses and trainings
00:17:19 Sharing learning opportunities with teammates
00:17:39 Closing

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

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Hybrid Work, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Technology

How Tectonic Forces Are Reshaping the Future of Work with Phil Simon

Wayne Turmel interviews Phil Simon about the trends that are reshaping the workplace, particularly in the context of remote and hybrid work. They discuss the dispersed workplace, employee empowerment, and the need for new metrics to measure productivity. Phil emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the shift towards remote work and the need for organizations to adapt to this new reality. He also highlights the role of employee engagement and the changing contract between employers and employees.

Key Takeaways

1. The dispersed workplace is here to stay, and organizations need to embrace the opportunities it presents.
2. Employee empowerment is crucial for attracting and retaining talent in a remote and hybrid work environment.
3. Traditional metrics for measuring productivity may not be effective in a remote work setting.
4. Companies should create a work environment that employees want to engage with, rather than forcing them to come to the office.
5. The contract between employers and employees is changing, and organizations need to adapt to the new expectations of workers.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:09 - 00:00:35:11
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the long distance worklife the podcast where we try to help people thrive and survive in the crazy changing, never quite the same world of remote and hybrid work. My name is Wayne Turmel. I'm with Kevin Eikenberry Group. This is a Marisa-less episode today. She will be with us next week. But I am really lucky.

00:00:35:13 - 00:01:02:06
Wayne Turmel
I get to talk to really smart people on this show. And one of them is my longtime friend and colleague, Phil Simon. And we are going to take a very high level look at some trends that are going to dictate whether exactly or generally where especially remote and hybrid work is going. And there's nobody that I would rather have this conversation with.

00:01:02:06 - 00:01:16:01
Wayne Turmel
So, Phil Simon, real quick, buddy, introduce yourself and then we're going to get down to the nine. The tectonic forces reshape in the workplace.

00:01:16:02 - 00:01:26:01
Phil Simon
Anyway, thanks for having me on. And let me just say that of all my podcasts, I think this is the first one in which the word chrysalis has been used well.

00:01:26:03 - 00:01:43:11
Wayne Turmel
And I think people tolerate me and like her is kind of out this year. So they tune in for Marissa and then they tune in for the people I talk to, and I am the necessary right way to that happening.

00:01:43:13 - 00:01:57:12
Phil Simon
I set the bar low. But anyway, thanks for having me on. My name's Phil Simon. I've written a bunch of books. The last four have been about the future of work and I write and speak and consult companies about how to navigate the chaos.

00:01:57:14 - 00:02:22:14
Wayne Turmel
And this book in particular, I like it. And you say, right on the cover of the book, this is not a tactical book. If you're looking for, you know, do this, don't do this, probably not the thing. But if like me, you spend a lot of time trying to figure out where is this going and what's impacting it and how the hell did that happen, I think this is an excellent book.

00:02:22:14 - 00:02:51:04
Wayne Turmel
And you outlined nine things that you think are kind of driving the workplace. And some of them are things like blockchain and generative A.I. and immersive technologies. But I want to focus on a few that are specific to this show and the people who listen. And I think I want to start with the dispersed workplace and what that really means.

00:02:51:04 - 00:03:13:17
Wayne Turmel
I know in the book you kind of said, look, the battles over people are working remotely, get over it. But what does that actually mean to organizations that are have been functioning in the before times and are trying to function now? What what what's the big aha. There?

00:03:13:19 - 00:03:36:09
Phil Simon
Well, I don't know if there's a single big aha moment, but as I write in chapter ten of the book, basically distilling some of the lessons from the nine into a number of strategies, pretending that COVID didn't happen and that people are going to gleefully return to the office five days a week is insane. And you could look at that as a negative because sometimes it can be difficult to do certain things remotely.

00:03:36:09 - 00:04:03:03
Phil Simon
You and I both know that if you're going to write all day, I don't need to be in office to do that right. If I'm going to code, if I'm going to do graphic design, But if I'm doing anything collaborative, you can do things sharing screens and design with Figment and those sorts of things. But, you know, for a collaborative session to receive a performance review, to brainstorm, to get to know your colleagues, you want to do that in person.

00:04:03:05 - 00:04:25:09
Phil Simon
So one of the consequences of that way in, as you know, is that if you only have employees coming in on a hybrid basis, that A, you may not need an entire office to yourself. So you might just want part of an office and B, you can actually hire from a larger talent pool if you're in San Francisco and you say, no, all of our coders have to be local.

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:45:05
Phil Simon
Well, good luck with that, because there are any number of tech companies, and as I write in the book, the head of machine learning at Apple, I think it was in March of last year, didn't take too kindly to Tim Cook's mandate that everyone return, at least on a hybrid basis. So he promptly quit. And I think by the end of the day, Google hired him.

00:04:45:07 - 00:05:06:01
Phil Simon
So that's a challenge. But if you look at it as an opportunity, well, now we aren't restricted to San Francisco, so it might be cheaper for us to pay someone who lives in Iowa a salary commensurate with other people in Des Moines and fly that person out once a month and still come out ahead, particularly if you then factor in lower real estate costs, even though the market has a bounce back yet.

00:05:06:01 - 00:05:25:18
Phil Simon
So all of these forces are related. But the most direct answer to your question, Wayne, is that it is silly to pretend that this hasn't happened. If COVID had been two or three weeks, it's a snow day. It's been two or three years of working remotely. The data is in. We have been productive. No, you don't want to hire people who will never come into the office.

00:05:25:20 - 00:05:37:04
Phil Simon
But if you think that you're going to find capable people who long term say, sure, sign me up for an hour or half commute each way, like it's 2018, ain't going to happen.

00:05:37:06 - 00:06:12:03
Wayne Turmel
What do you think this means to the individual worker? I mean, part of what the office provided, I think about new new hires and interns and people just out of school who are learning what it means to go to work right. What do you think this means organizations are going to have to do to help people prepare to work here, here being whatever that company is?

00:06:12:05 - 00:06:31:07
Phil Simon
Lots of things. First, and I think you recently wrote a post about this, about proximity bias that's alive and well. I mean, they've done studies controlling for performance. People who go into the office tend to be promoted and just thought of as harder working than people who are remote. Even though that may not be true. That's a legitimate concern.

00:06:31:07 - 00:06:49:08
Phil Simon
And I don't see it going away soon because it just taps into psychological biases. You could be cranking away at home. I don't see it out of sight, out of mind. But you're in the office till six and you take a couple smoke breaks and a two hour lunch. And boy, Wayne's a really good worker, but I think it's imperative for companies to find people who are willing to come to the office.

00:06:49:08 - 00:07:05:03
Phil Simon
I'm not saying that you have to be there a certain number of days per week because you can argue that that's arbitrary. But I think it's equally insane for companies to say you have to be in the office to work as it is for employees, say, I'm never coming to the office. So to me, that's an interview question, right?

00:07:05:03 - 00:07:26:01
Phil Simon
And then test people, you know, if they're not willing to come in, maybe it's time to cut the cord with them, because I agree with you, there is something to be said for that. And if I were 30 years younger, I would schlep into an office even when I didn't have to, to build that social currency, to establish reactions to relationships with folks, to collide with folks.

00:07:26:01 - 00:07:47:20
Phil Simon
Right. To have that random conversation about the bear in the hallway. And now, Oh, yeah, when you see the bear last night, I believe strongly love to get your thoughts on it, that those types of social ties matter. And if my manager likes me and my colleagues treat me well, maybe I'm less likely to leave for a 5% raise without having to move because I can now work anywhere.

00:07:47:22 - 00:08:21:09
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think that that's true. I also you know, I was talking to somebody about people returning to the office and she was bemoaning the fact that her people have basically gone feral and they don't know how to you know, they don't know how to act in an office setting anymore. And I think for young workers who've never had that experience, and if we're going to hire people from different backgrounds and people whose daddy didn't work at IBM, right.

00:08:21:11 - 00:08:47:04
Wayne Turmel
So it's kind of certain behaviors and certain tacit knowledge has been passed on. We have to create what it's like to work here and we have to teach people boundaries. And I know that it can be done with less physical proximity. But I think depending on where you are in your career, the demand for flexibility is going to be different.

00:08:47:06 - 00:09:12:22
Phil Simon
Oh, 100%. I mean, you could argue that the pandemic was ultimately a net positive for working mothers because to work from home and to not have to pay in some cases 20 $500 a month in childcare, and it should be a more present parent is beneficial. I'd also argue that companies there is a certain onus on employees. I agree with you there, but I believe that companies have to make the work a destination.

00:09:13:02 - 00:09:47:00
Phil Simon
Don't make me come in because I have to make me come in because I want you researching the book. I found many examples of companies that have completely rethought the office. My favorite example is Cisco. In the Manhattan office pre-pandemic 70% of the workspace Wain was allocated to individual workstation cubicles, desks, whatever they inverted that they spent a ton of money making it 30% individual workstations because they understand that if you're going to be coding or doing individual work all day, we don't want you there, right?

00:09:47:02 - 00:10:11:16
Phil Simon
It's actually better. It's a more flexible, collaborative environment so we can demonize employees all we want. And there certainly are many examples of slackers and quiet quitting. But if I were running any company of consequence, I would absolutely make it a cool place to be or people would want to hang out. And even though that mandate might be two days a week, people come in three or four because it actually is a better environment.

00:10:11:17 - 00:10:38:21
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that ties to employee engagement. One of the things that this show is very big on is that engagement isn't something companies can do. They can create an environment that people want to engage with. But engagement comes from inside the individual person, right? You choose. I can get down on one knee and give you a ring, but you're not engaged until you say yes.

00:10:38:23 - 00:11:00:03
Phil Simon
So I think we're now at my my prediction for laughing twice with your questions. But yeah, I mean, we could talk about nature versus nurture all day long. If I had to give a pithy 140 character answer, I'd just say do the opposite of what Musk is doing with Twitter and you'll probably be in a good spot.

00:11:00:05 - 00:11:11:04
Wayne Turmel
Safe enough. But this gets to one of your nine things, which is employee empowerment. Tell me what you mean by that.

00:11:11:06 - 00:11:35:22
Phil Simon
Yeah, as I've said before, when I think it's silly to believe that employees will return to their relatively docile states and forget what I think. Union approval ratings, I believe, are at 72%. Last time I checked. That's the highest rate in something like 40 or 50 years. Amazon famously is facing a number of union votes, and I think a few of them have been successful, even employee friendly companies.

00:11:35:22 - 00:12:10:12
Phil Simon
In the book, I write about Kickstarter and Trader Joe's have had to deal with unions, and I start off the book with the example of Google and how employees and contractors there basically staged a walkout over what happened with Andy Rubin from Android Frame fame and some sexual impropriety charges with the whole MeToo movement. It was remarkable to me watching that whole thing play out back in 2018, because Google employees aren't steelworker employees in the minds of Pennsylvania dying on the job or facing lung disease.

00:12:10:14 - 00:12:33:23
Phil Simon
They get free massages and dry cleaning and food, and here they are. So I think, again, all of these forces are related. And if you take for granted the fact that we do have a more dispersed workplace than a natural extension of that is I don't want to commute an hour each way. Prior to the pandemic, the average American commute was 37 minutes.

00:12:33:23 - 00:13:00:15
Phil Simon
I get that back twice per week. That's how is my math 168 minutes. That's close to 3 hours that I could spend walking my dog or watching TV shows or spending time with my family or whatever. So I. I couldn't separate the two. That's why they go in that particular order. But we've seen this with employees, this whole notion of bringing your whole self to work and maybe the pandemic contributed to that.

00:13:00:17 - 00:13:23:21
Phil Simon
If we saw you at home and you had a dog or a cat or a Breaking Bad poster in the background like I do, you got to know people a bit. And employees, right or wrong, started to develop this expectation. And without getting all political, we see how say would Salesforce, after Roe v Wade got overturned, the company more or less said, We will work with you to find alternatives.

00:13:23:23 - 00:13:55:22
Phil Simon
That to me, Wayne was unfathomable. Ten years ago. So progressive employers are responding to this because they realize it's just good business. That doesn't mean that you can placate employees as I said before, I think it's completely reasonable to expect people to come to the office once in a while. But I just don't think, particularly in this country, if you look at our labor laws compared to your home country, Canada, our countries in Europe that are much more employee friendly, I think it's going to be incredibly difficult to attract employees if you just say, we're giving you a paycheck now, shut up and do as you're told.

00:13:56:00 - 00:14:18:00
Wayne Turmel
Well, and there is a three beverage conversation to be had about the changing contract in the workplace. Right. This notion that for years the lip service has always been it's supply and demand. And when demand is up, you know, one side has leverage over the other. But it's been 60 years since Labor actually had any leverage.

00:14:18:02 - 00:14:39:06
Phil Simon
Yeah, it says it's funny. My masters is an industrial labor relations. I could bore you for more than three beverages on this topic, but I, I do think that a shift has taken place and that to me it's not a binary. So the pendulum will maybe swing back and forth a little bit, but I do think that employees in general and particularly talented folks will have no shortage of alternatives.

00:14:39:06 - 00:14:56:09
Phil Simon
And for you, if it's a deal breaker to only go in the office once or twice a week, you'll be able to find jobs like that from the previous book. Or maybe it was two books ago, I forget. But there was a story of a company that recruited a guy and he was thinking about the offer accepted on a Friday.

00:14:56:09 - 00:15:22:03
Phil Simon
But on Monday morning he emailed the recruiter and said, I'm sorry, I can't do this. Okay. Why you use Microsoft teams? I'm a Slack guy. To me, that is just a particular data point. But the very idea and I'm a big Slack fan or Slack for Dummies, I use it almost every day. The fact that you could say basically I like Miller Lite, not Bud Light, therefore I'm not going to watch that team no matter how much I like them.

00:15:22:04 - 00:15:37:22
Phil Simon
Does signal that the pendulum, I believe, has swung to employees, at least for the time being. And if you take a look at some of the other forces in the book, I just I'm not saying it's going to stick at 80% or 90%, but I don't think it's going to shift completely to the other way any time soon.

00:15:38:00 - 00:15:43:03
Phil Simon
But maybe generally I will prove me wrong.

00:15:43:05 - 00:16:10:16
Wayne Turmel
There are about five rabbit holes in that sense that I desperately want to go down and I'm not because I am a professional, darn it. But what I do want to do is talk about something that you spend some time on. And it's interesting to me that you broke it out as a separate item, okay? Because to me, this is part of the empowered employee thing and it's certainly important.

00:16:10:16 - 00:16:42:12
Wayne Turmel
And that is the idea of the analytics that we use to manage people and measure success and reward people. Are we are still using horse and buggy metrics and, you know, what's his face following people around in the factories in Buffalo doing time studies the idea that we're using the metrics, what's wrong with the metrics? We're using and how should we be measuring work instead?

00:16:42:14 - 00:16:47:11
Phil Simon
Oh, you want to talk about rabbit holes. That's all the time out of the way.

00:16:47:11 - 00:16:49:17
Wayne Turmel
Fluffy.

00:16:49:19 - 00:17:14:03
Phil Simon
I think you're thinking of Frederick Winslow Taylor from that. Sam Yep. There you go. You know, by way of background, I'm not anti data. I've written books about analytics, big data, data visualization. I think that data can certainly informed decisions. But when it comes to productivity, we've got a number of problems. First off, and Rodney Malar from Vox wrote a great piece on this.

00:17:14:03 - 00:17:33:18
Phil Simon
Of course, after my book came out and it was just a month ago, it was something about how companies are obsessed with productivity, but they can't define it. So what does it mean? Does it mean being in the office? Well, that's not true because we saw during the pandemic you could not go to an office and we struggled at first with Zoom and different tools, but we were, by all accounts, productive.

00:17:33:19 - 00:17:53:22
Phil Simon
Microsoft's done some fascinating research about not only were we as productive, but as possibly more so. In fact, they coined the term second shift. People were putting in another hour or two after dinner, so they weren't get deluged in the morning with messages or they could prove that they were working hard and not watching Game of Thrones or Better Call Saul.

00:17:54:00 - 00:18:23:11
Phil Simon
So there's that. But generally speaking, and this isn't limited to the world of remote work, but I am fascinated with good hearts, lore and Campbell's lore. And to paraphrase them, they kind of overlap. But the minute that you begin measuring something, it ceases to become an effective measure. So by way of example, as a former college professor in part, I was not tenured, so I would receive an offer in part, again based on my student evals because students know what they want.

00:18:23:12 - 00:18:39:23
Phil Simon
Right? Okay, I can get my student evals up from a five to a six. On a scale of seven, I'll just make it easy. You know what, Wayne? I know you missed your assignment. What the hell? Have another crack at it and you're going to give me a higher rating If I'm a hardass and I am, I'm not going to do that.

00:18:40:01 - 00:18:58:09
Phil Simon
And you're going to give me a lower rating. But I'd argue that I'm actually doing you a favor. Now, higher education aside, once you know that they're grading you on how often you come to the office, you can come to the office and check out right. I'm pretty sure that in an era of bring your own device, you can find ways to slack off.

00:18:58:11 - 00:19:18:11
Phil Simon
Then you see companies countering that with surveillance software, particularly for remote employees. And then there are programs that you can download that will basically enter keystrokes because of course, if you're doing things you and I both know, that means you're super productive. And if you're thinking and not touching your keyboard, then you can't be doing something worthwhile. So I don't have all the answers.

00:19:18:11 - 00:19:40:12
Phil Simon
But I do think that when we tend to quantify things, and especially if you're working in a remote or hybrid capacity and we're entering things, we're using applications, you're going to be able to come up with certain numbers, but they're not necessarily effective ones. And if you tell me what the numbers are going to be, I don't have to be a rocket surgeon to figure out how to game them.

00:19:40:14 - 00:20:05:14
Wayne Turmel
Thank you so much. That's fabulous. I told you people that this would be a very high level conversation and give you what's to think about. And I hope your head hurts right now. I really do. The book, The Nine, The Tech Talk. Tectonic Forces Bet Reshaping the Workplace is an excellent, excellent read. If you want just stuff to generate your thinking.

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:45:22
Wayne Turmel
Phil, you and I have had much longer conversations. They are much deeper rabbit holes and I hope that will continue. But thank you so much for being with us and just introducing some of these topics to us. I truly appreciate it. For those of you listening, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you want links to Phil's book and his work and to him, if you want a transcript of this show, because so much good stuff flew by fast visit long distance worklife dot com you can also by the way, speaking of Marisa, we are currently taking pet peeves and questions.

00:20:45:23 - 00:21:12:16
Wayne Turmel
Those episodes people really seem to enjoy and you don't have any problem complaining, so get those in there. We want to hear from you if you have not yet checked out. Kevin’s and my new book, The Long Distance Team Designing Your Team for Everyone's Success. By golly, please do so. We really appreciate it. If you're listening to this, this is unlikely to be your first podcast, so you know the drill.

00:21:12:20 - 00:21:40:11
Wayne Turmel
Like subscribe, tell your friends. If you didn't like it, keep your mouth shut. And if you want to reach us on either LinkedIn or by email, wayne@kevineikenberry.com, marisa@kevineikenberry.com. Phil Simon. Thank you so much, man. Good to talk to you. We really appreciate it. And for the rest of you, we will be back next week with another episode.

00:21:40:16 - 00:21:42:06
Wayne Turmel
Don't let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction to the podcast and guest Phil Simon
00:01:16 Discussing the nine trends shaping remote and hybrid work
00:02:51 Focus on the dispersed workplace and its impact on organizations
00:06:12 Importance of helping individuals prepare for remote work
00:07:26 The value of in-person collaboration and social ties
00:08:47 Teaching boundaries and creating a work destination
00:09:47 Example of Cisco rethinking the office space
00:10:38 Engagement comes from creating an engaging environment
00:11:00 Conclusion on creating a positive work environment
00:12:10 The dispersed workplace and the desire for flexibility
00:16:10 Outdated metrics and measuring productivity
00:17:14 Defining productivity and the shift in remote work
00:18:23 The flaws of quantifying and gaming productivity metrics
00:19:18 The ineffectiveness of quantified numbers in remote work
00:20:05 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Name: Phil Simon

What He Does: Workplace technology expert and author of The Nine: The Tectonic Forces Reshaping the Workplace

Notable: He also hosts the podcast, Conversations About Collaboration

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Meeting Cancellations and Time Zone Troubles episode of Long-Distance Worklife podcast with Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry

Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

Remote Work Rants: Meeting Cancellations and Time Zone Troubles

In this pet peeves episode, Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel tackle two common frustrations faced by remote workers: last-minute meeting cancellations and the challenges of coordinating meetings across different time zones. They empathize with the annoyance of blocked-out time being wasted and provide insights on how to handle such situations professionally. The hosts also discuss the importance of considering team members' time zones when scheduling meetings and how to avoid unintentional home office bias. Listeners will gain valuable tips on effective communication, asynchronous alternatives, and fostering a more understanding and inclusive remote work culture.

Key Takeaways

1. Last-minute meeting cancellations can be frustrating, but acknowledging the inconvenience and providing a reason for the cancellation can help alleviate the frustration.
2. When meetings involve participants from different time zones, consider their preferences and try to find meeting times that are mutually convenient.
3. Utilize asynchronous communication methods like recorded videos or shared documents to avoid unnecessary late-night or early-morning meetings.
4. Be mindful of home office bias and make an effort to balance meeting times to accommodate team members in different time zones.
5. Effective communication, empathy, and flexibility are crucial for building a positive remote work culture that values the needs of all team members.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:12:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams.

00:00:12:10 - 00:00:18:12
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne!

00:00:18:13 - 00:00:20:13
Wayne Turmel
Hello, Marisa. How are you?

00:00:20:14 - 00:00:23:15
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. Are you ready to tackle some more pet peeves today?

00:00:23:16 - 00:00:45:16
Wayne Turmel
I am. This is like my favorite thing is when I do training, I always tell people, don't be shy. This is your chance to vent. And just a little word about pet peeves in general. When we get them from readers, it very often starts with Maybe it's just me, and the answer is no. It is not just you.

00:00:45:16 - 00:00:46:17
Wayne Turmel
That's the point.

00:00:46:22 - 00:01:14:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. So if you've been thinking about sending us one for a while, do it. Because not only is there, it's not just you. There's probably also even us that feel the same way. So we're going to start tackling those. I've got two lined up for you and we're going to start with Michael's. And Michael told me on LinkedIn that for him, his pet peeve is meeting canceled meetings, canceled the day of and it's worse if it's an early meeting or the closer the cancellation is to the starting meeting time.

00:01:14:20 - 00:01:17:17
Wayne Turmel
Yes, the answer is yes, right?

00:01:17:19 - 00:01:19:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I feel that, too.

00:01:19:09 - 00:01:30:09
Wayne Turmel
It's interesting because what Michael didn't say is the momentary feeling of relief. And hallelujah, right goes when a meeting is canceled.

00:01:30:14 - 00:01:34:12
Marisa Eikenberry
The introvert in me is like, Oh, thank God.

00:01:34:14 - 00:02:05:10
Wayne Turmel
What I suspect he's referring to is the sense that you have blocked out time on your calendar. And there is something presumably at least as important, likely, more important, that isn't getting done because you have blocked time for this meeting. There's prep time and then the meeting is simply and I think that there are a couple of things that need to go into this because what is it that peeves us off about that?

00:02:05:16 - 00:02:33:19
Wayne Turmel
It's seldom that the meeting is canceled, right? That's that in itself is often, oh, I get an hour of my life back or whatever. It's a couple of things. One is I've wasted all this time. Yeah, prepping or blocking it or not schedule ing something that I could be doing. So there's a productivity waste here. The second thing I think is it's just plain rude.

00:02:33:21 - 00:02:34:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:02:34:15 - 00:03:00:00
Wayne Turmel
Right, right. And depending on if you're crossing time zones and doing different things, it's an inconvenience. So I think there are some things. First of all, your mother probably raised you right. So if something is canceled, apologize, acknowledge the work that's gone into it and give a reason why it's canceled.

00:03:00:02 - 00:03:10:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah. I mean, this week that got moved a couple of times and every time it was crap. I didn't know about this thing. Here's why I need to move it. Okay, No problem.

00:03:10:07 - 00:03:36:01
Wayne Turmel
Most people are reasonable human beings. People will be reasonable about this, assuming two conditions. One is that it is acknowledged and you you don't have to grovel or anything like that. But a simple. I'm really sorry. I know that you prep this. I know that you blocked the other time out. Here's why we had to change or cancel the meeting.

00:03:36:03 - 00:03:36:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:03:36:14 - 00:03:44:21
Wayne Turmel
Because frankly, there's very often a good reason for that. If you are canceling the meeting, they're jolly well, better be a good reason for this.

00:03:45:02 - 00:03:46:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:03:46:08 - 00:04:14:02
Wayne Turmel
And it has to do with a key stakeholder. Can't make it or we're missing certain information or the building caught fire or whatever it is When you cancel, do so with an explanation. As much explanation as you can give, because most people will go, Oh, that makes sense. So that's the first thing. The second thing is whatever business was supposed to be conducted in this meeting obviously did not take place.

00:04:14:04 - 00:04:33:14
Wayne Turmel
How are we going to handle that if it was important enough to hold a meeting? Obviously it's important. Are you going to send the information via an asynchronous form? Right. Are you going to send the PowerPoint or are you going to direct them to where they can get the information that would have been given out in the media?

00:04:33:16 - 00:04:48:14
Wayne Turmel
Right. So that people at least get the value of that. I think it's important that we know is this canceled or is it rescheduled? And approximately when will it be rescheduled? Tell us what the future holds.

00:04:48:16 - 00:04:50:19
Marisa Eikenberry
So we can block that time in our calendar and we.

00:04:50:19 - 00:05:17:01
Wayne Turmel
Can walk that unnecessarily. And I think that's and I know that that doesn't make up for the frustration, particularly, as I say, if you are readjusting your life, not just your your schedule, but your actual life. You know, when I have clients in Europe and I love my European clients very much, but I live on the west coast of the United States, there is no good time.

00:05:17:03 - 00:05:20:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, somebody is going to get inconvenienced either way.

00:05:20:07 - 00:05:42:22
Wayne Turmel
Somebody is going to be inconvenienced and the customer being the customer, it's probably me as it should be now, depending on the time of day, can be a big deal because if I need to be on webcam, for example, I need to be showered and dressed from the waist up and, you know, look reasonable, lay awake and be properly caffeinated.

00:05:43:00 - 00:05:46:16
Wayne Turmel
Well, if I have done that at five in the morning.

00:05:46:18 - 00:05:48:07
Marisa Eikenberry
And you've now canceled.

00:05:48:08 - 00:06:07:06
Wayne Turmel
And it's happened, I mean, I've gotten up at 415 for 5:00 meeting only to check my email and they've canceled meeting. Oof! Congratulations. It's 415 and you're awake and the coffee's on. Well, you know my day. I'm a serious head.

00:06:07:08 - 00:06:27:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I know. For me, like, because the. The nature of what I do, like, I do so much deep work, and there are some times where it's like, I won't plan my deep work. I project work during certain times. This well, I'm going to have a meeting at 10:00 or I'm going to have me, so I'll just do this later and then when it gets canceled, it's just like crap.

00:06:27:17 - 00:06:38:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Like, that was time. I mean, yeah, I theoretically have it back now, but it's like, but now I've scheduled other other stuff around it, so it doesn't really feel like I got that time back, even though I theoretically did.

00:06:38:17 - 00:07:11:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And what you said is really important because you're not just losing the time of the meeting. I'm the same way. If I know, for example, we're recording this today and that's on my my schedule. Well, for the last half hour, I've been doing little things right, right. Deleting stuff from my inbox and, you know, updating some things, but little mindless tasks because I want my head in the game to do this and I don't want to get into something that requires deep thought and then have to stop.

00:07:11:17 - 00:07:14:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. That's that's where I'm at. Right?

00:07:14:12 - 00:07:29:11
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. So what happens is we not just lose call it an hour because that's an easy. Yeah. Framework we know lose that hour we probably misspent a half hour at least.

00:07:29:12 - 00:07:32:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Maybe depending on when the last thing that we got done. Got that.

00:07:32:23 - 00:07:41:11
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. Oh, I got off my call at 930 and the meeting is at ten. I'm not going to jump in and do something major.

00:07:41:12 - 00:07:55:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, yeah. Like I've gotten off meetings. I mean, I end my day like 345. And so there are times that, you know, I'll get done with whatever task that I'm doing it like 330. And I go, Well, what am I to do for 15 minutes? I'm to be honest, I probably go on Facebook because it's like, what am I going to get done in 15 minutes?

00:07:55:06 - 00:07:56:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Not a whole heck of a lot.

00:07:56:08 - 00:08:27:18
Wayne Turmel
And so and here's the thing, though, you do that, nobody cares. The work got done. And this is the thing about remote work. The work the product for the day got done. The fact that you're 15 minutes late, early coming in, leaving, running to target, whatever you're doing is not as important as the fact that the work product, you got an acceptable amount of work product done for the day.

00:08:27:20 - 00:08:34:03
Wayne Turmel
The problem with canceled meetings is that you could have gotten more work product done right now.

00:08:34:03 - 00:08:39:00
Marisa Eikenberry
You know, now those projects have been scheduled on other days because I thought I didn't have it in my calendar today.

00:08:39:01 - 00:09:15:17
Wayne Turmel
Exactly right. So I know, Michael, that this does not assuage the pain. Right. Because it is annoying. But I think if we apologize and recognize the inconvenience, give people some sense of what's next. Right. Are we going to reschedule it for Thursday? Are we going to send out the materials in advance? Tell us what's going to happen as a result of this so that whatever work we were supposed to get done still gets done because the meeting was supposed to accomplish work.

00:09:15:19 - 00:09:25:23
Wayne Turmel
Right. Give people a sense of what's next so that they can plan their life. I think, you know, stuff happens.

00:09:26:01 - 00:09:26:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:09:26:17 - 00:09:33:12
Wayne Turmel
And most people recognize that. But, you know, we can take the sting out of it a little bit.

00:09:33:14 - 00:09:51:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, and I think, too, because I have also heard this where, you know, you have a meeting that, well, maybe it might happen, but maybe it won't happen. But it's not like we're canceling it because, you know, that was caught on fire or something like that. It's just like, I don't know if I'm going to have it or not cancel it like earlier rather than later if the day before.

00:09:51:07 - 00:09:54:09
Marisa Eikenberry
You're like, I don't know if we need to have it, cancel it.

00:09:54:10 - 00:10:00:11
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I think periodically, you know, asking yourself, do we need to have this meeting at all?

00:10:00:17 - 00:10:02:03
Marisa Eikenberry
And that's an important question to ask.

00:10:02:08 - 00:10:13:01
Wayne Turmel
And can it be done in another fashion? If everybody comes in to the office Tuesdays and Wednesdays, maybe we'll just do a Wednesday when everybody's here.

00:10:13:03 - 00:10:18:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Or I don't really need a status update because we technically talked the other day like we can just cancel this meeting.

00:10:18:16 - 00:10:25:12
Wayne Turmel
And if you have a decent reporting system, status updates are largely unnecessary.

00:10:25:14 - 00:10:27:22
Marisa Eikenberry
That too.

00:10:28:00 - 00:10:29:00
Wayne Turmel
What's your next question?

00:10:29:04 - 00:10:33:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. So our next one is from Lourdes. I'm hope I'm pronouncing that right.

00:10:33:12 - 00:10:34:15
Wayne Turmel
Gorgeous.

00:10:34:17 - 00:10:55:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Thank you. And it says, if you're collaborating across time zones, global or country specific organizing meetings or expecting response, is it convenient times where headquarters are based with little regard of how late or early in the day it might be for other remote locations? Slack and Outlook have a send delay option for a good reason and she added a very nice little emoji.

00:10:55:04 - 00:11:11:11
Marisa Eikenberry
I did ask for a little bit more detail and I go, okay, what's the worst that you've ever seen for this? Like, what does that look like for you? And she said, the worst times that she's ever seen were 5 a.m. for a meeting or between 9 p.m. and midnight for time zones outside of headquarters.

00:11:11:13 - 00:11:19:06
Wayne Turmel
People who live in headquarters forget what they learned about eighth grade physics.

00:11:19:07 - 00:11:20:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay?

00:11:20:05 - 00:11:27:12
Wayne Turmel
And they don't realize that the sun does not revolve around their particular building.

00:11:27:14 - 00:11:28:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:11:28:23 - 00:11:33:11
Wayne Turmel
People on the east coast of the United States are particularly bad at this.

00:11:33:13 - 00:11:36:07
Marisa Eikenberry
I mean, we are particularly bad at this even as an organization.

00:11:36:10 - 00:11:38:17
Wayne Turmel
Well, but we're not. We're not. Here's the thing.

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:39:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00:11:39:15 - 00:11:44:21
Wayne Turmel
Indianapolis is on. Indy is in Indiana, which is in the Eastern.

00:11:44:21 - 00:11:45:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Time.

00:11:45:08 - 00:12:12:00
Wayne Turmel
Zone. We have trucks in the Mountain Time zone, Arizona. Nobody knows what time it is in Arizona ever because of gas and switching. Right. And I'm on the West Coast. I'm an early bird when Kevin's schedule's like our team meetings first Friday of every month. It's 7:00 in the morning for me. But that was negotiated fair, right? That is the latest that I usually start my day.

00:12:12:04 - 00:12:19:01
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, I'll often have a t shirt and a baseball cap on because I won't have showered, but everybody knows me and that doesn't matter.

00:12:19:04 - 00:12:20:14
Marisa Eikenberry
And it's a TV call in.

00:12:20:14 - 00:12:22:12
Wayne Turmel
The morning doesn't bother me.

00:12:22:15 - 00:12:22:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:12:23:04 - 00:12:58:02
Wayne Turmel
Now, as I say, if I'm talking to somebody in London. Right, that's a different that's a different animal. Or if you're talking to somebody in Asia-Pacific, that can get complicated. But the default very often is whatever time the headquarters is in, everybody synchronizes their clocks accordingly. And that shouldn't be necessarily the norm unless it's absolutely mandatory. You know, if you've got a call center in Manila, yeah, it probably used to be when your customers in the U.S. are awake.

00:12:58:04 - 00:12:59:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:12:59:03 - 00:13:19:21
Wayne Turmel
Right. There are some things that just make sense in terms of workflow. But there are two things I think. One is look for peak times, right? Hey, if I have to stay an hour later than usual to do a call, and that's not all the time. Yeah, I'll take one for the team. It's not a big deal.

00:13:19:23 - 00:13:21:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, once in a while it's.

00:13:21:00 - 00:13:41:07
Wayne Turmel
Fine if you feel like you are constantly being imposed upon and unnecessarily so, that can lead to disengagement and disgruntlement and all of that kind of negative stuff because it just feels like your needs are secondary to everybody else's.

00:13:41:13 - 00:14:01:19
Marisa Eikenberry
So when this happens, I mean, who needs to be the one to raise the flag? Is it the person who's being super inconvenienced needs to go talk to their manager, or does the leader need to realize, Hey, I might be in New York, but my team is in Spain and I'm asking them to be on a call at a time that's not great for them.

00:14:02:01 - 00:14:18:11
Wayne Turmel
Well, and that's the thing, right? I know that for me, when I led a team and it was an international team, I tended to take one for the team. Unless the majority of the people on the call were in a single time.

00:14:18:11 - 00:14:20:05
Marisa Eikenberry
So that makes sense to try to get as.

00:14:20:05 - 00:14:45:09
Wayne Turmel
Many of the person. If it's just me in that person, I will generally take one for the team and do it when it's convenient for them. That is one of those dark side of servant leadership things that we've talked about though, where if you've got five team members outside of your time zone and so you're starting at five in the morning and finishing at eight at night, that ain't good.

00:14:45:11 - 00:14:47:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, you need to take care of you too.

00:14:47:11 - 00:15:17:18
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So everybody needs to communicate that. I think one of the things that is very helpful besides just asking people, when would you like to hold this meeting so that it's not killing you? That would be good, right? Just ask people what works Every once in a while, though. Toss them a bone. You know, maybe people in the New York office need to suck it up and, you know, take a morning call or stay a little bit later.

00:15:17:23 - 00:15:41:00
Wayne Turmel
And the thing is, the way that we work now, it's not like if I have an 8:00 call, I have to work every minute up till 8:00. We live in a time flexible world. If you're you know, if you work till 2:00 and you've got a call at 8:00 at night, go to the gym, have dinner with the family circle back and join when you when you need to.

00:15:41:02 - 00:16:06:16
Wayne Turmel
I think what Lord is, is addressing is this kind of home office bias, which literally leads to thoughtless behavior and thoughtless, not in the sense of you're a miserable, horrible human being. It's that you literally didn't think about it. So when you have people in different time zones confer with them, find out what works, Do they like early morning?

00:16:06:19 - 00:16:11:10
Wayne Turmel
Do they like evening? How does this impact their workday?

00:16:11:12 - 00:16:21:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Well, and to your point, even just from the last question, does it need to be a meeting at all? Could this be done asynchronously, which would probably benefit all of them?

00:16:21:17 - 00:16:32:23
Wayne Turmel
And we're living in a world where literally with the push of a button, you are recording transcripts, ing and translating your meetings.

00:16:33:01 - 00:16:33:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:16:34:01 - 00:16:44:02
Wayne Turmel
So if it's an informational meeting where you're basically giving information, maybe somebody doesn't have to be up at midnight.

00:16:44:04 - 00:16:44:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, maybe.

00:16:44:20 - 00:16:45:09
Wayne Turmel
That be that.

00:16:45:11 - 00:17:02:06
Marisa Eikenberry
A meeting, it could be a video. If if it's truly just I'm going to give information and then people can ask questions. I've seen people use loom or other software to just record a video and then send it out and then, hey, watch this video. If you have questions, let me know.

00:17:02:08 - 00:17:15:12
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. So there are ways to do this. Technology allows us to do that, but have conversations with people. What works, what doesn't? Do they mind? You know, what is their body clock tell you?

00:17:15:14 - 00:17:16:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:17:16:02 - 00:17:37:20
Wayne Turmel
Somebody to attend those things. You should know that anyway if you're hiring people outside of your time's up. So you know, what is their preference? Can they be accommodated or are there alternatives to those meetings? And by the way, every once in a while toss them a bone and schedule when it's good for them and everybody else has to suck it up.

00:17:37:20 - 00:17:42:04
Wayne Turmel
And when they complain, you go, yes, that's the point.

00:17:42:06 - 00:17:51:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's always, always been, you know, missing dinner for this. You can miss dinner once a while.

00:17:51:04 - 00:17:52:19
Wayne Turmel
Exactly. Yeah.

00:17:52:21 - 00:18:10:07
Marisa Eikenberry
So I just want to thank both of our listeners for sending in these questions. I'm so excited that we got to tackle these today and we have a few more, but we would love to answer your questions too, so please make sure to send those to us. Thank you for listening to Log. This is work life for Shownotes transcripts and other resources.

00:18:10:07 - 00:18:31:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Make sure to visit longdistanceworklife.com if you haven't yet. Subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes while you're there. Be sure to like in review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our Shownotes let us know you listen to this episode or even suggest a topic or pet peeve for Wayne and I to tackle on a future episode.

00:18:32:01 - 00:18:44:15
Marisa Eikenberry
And if you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry’s new book, The Long-Distance Team, you can learn more about the book at Long Distance Team Book.com. Thanks for joining us. It is Wayne. Like say don't let the weasels get you down.

00:18:44:17 - 00:18:48:14
Wayne Turmel
Darn weasels.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
02:05 Frustrations with Canceled Meetings
06:07 Impact on Work Productivity
09:15 Time Zone Challenges
12:12 Inconvenient Meeting Times
15:14 Asynchronous Communication
18:10 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

The Return-to-Office Backfire: Why Scare Tactics Don’t Work

Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel dive into the world of scare tactics surrounding remote work and the push to return to the office. They discuss the underlying motives behind exaggerated claims and unflattering portrayals, emphasizing the importance of reevaluating productivity metrics and setting realistic expectations. They highlight the need for leaders to define metrics focused on outputs rather than physical presence, while debunking outdated data and emphasizing the value of understanding the nuances of remote work. Tune in for insights on navigating scare tactics, fostering a productive remote work culture, and creating a thriving hybrid work environment.

Key Takeaways

1. Beware of scare tactics: Recognize the underlying motives behind exaggerated claims and unflattering portrayals of remote work. Question the source and consider the biases at play.
2. Rethink productivity metrics: Focus on defining metrics that measure outputs rather than physical presence. Consider what truly matters for the success of the work being done.
3. Set realistic expectations: Clearly communicate and align expectations with remote team members. Provide guidance and support to ensure everyone understands their roles and responsibilities.
4. Evaluate the relevance of data: Be cautious when using outdated data, especially from the pandemic era, to make sweeping generalizations about remote work's impact. Context matters, and the current state of remote work is continually evolving.
5. Embrace the nuances of remote work: Recognize that being pro-remote work does not mean being anti-office. Find a balance and explore the benefits that remote work can bring to individuals and organizations.
6. Foster a supportive remote work culture: Prioritize effective communication, training, and feedback to maintain productivity, engagement, and overall well-being in remote teams.
7. Create a thriving hybrid work environment: Strive for a flexible work arrangement that blends remote and office-based work. Tailor the approach to the unique needs of the team and organization.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:18:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to Long-Distance Worklife. Where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

00:00:18:15 - 00:00:20:06
Wayne Turmel
Hi, Marisa. How the heck are you?

00:00:20:10 - 00:00:22:00
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm great. How are you?

00:00:22:02 - 00:00:30:14
Wayne Turmel
I am really, really well. Looking forward to this conversation nation, because we have been talking about it internally at work for like a week.

00:00:30:17 - 00:00:51:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right? Right. So for all of you listening today, we're actually going to be talking about scare tactics and ways that we are actually being scared back into going into the office. So there's been a lot of news that's come out in the last week or so. I know that we've been talking about it internally at work. We hear this concept about the war on remote work and work from home is ending.

00:00:51:14 - 00:01:07:07
Marisa Eikenberry
And is remote work a thing of the past, which we both know that it's not. And as we say frequently on the show, remote work didn't start in 2020 and it's not going to end because the powers that be decided that it was over. So, Wayne, do you want to start with this New York Post article that we talked about the other day?

00:01:07:08 - 00:01:39:07
Wayne Turmel
This is this warms the cockles of my heart because lately I've been cutting businesses a lot of slack and saying, no, there are reasons to go back to the office. Like I've been trying to be very gracious, gracious about this. And then this happened, the short version, and we will have a link to this in the show notes at longdistanceworklife.com and The New York Post ran an article a couple of weeks ago.

00:01:39:09 - 00:01:47:12
Wayne Turmel
But what started it is a furniture company in the UK did research and you've.

00:01:47:12 - 00:01:48:00
Marisa Eikenberry
That’s a good way to put it.

00:01:48:00 - 00:02:11:12
Wayne Turmel
If you can’t see the air quotes you can certainly hear them and basically said this is what if we continue to work from home, we are going to look like by the year 2100. And they had this avatar named Anna and Anna. I didn't realize they had work from home coal mines, but apparently this is what she got because she looked awful.

00:02:11:12 - 00:02:29:08
Wayne Turmel
And there are certain things you can imagine, like the eyes are red and sunken because she's been staring at screens too long and, you know, she hasn't been getting up to exercise. So there's a potbelly. But they were not kind. In this particular video simulation.

00:02:29:14 - 00:02:33:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. I didn't realize that working from home meant my skin was all going to sag.

00:02:33:18 - 00:02:55:05
Wayne Turmel
Oh, your skin is going to sag. Anna apparently does her work from her bed with half eaten food sitting around her and a laptop not even on a bed desk. Yeah, on the bed. And she basically looks like she should have Carrie Fisher chained to her.

00:02:55:07 - 00:02:57:21
Marisa Eikenberry
She looks like the epitome of goblin mode.

00:02:57:23 - 00:03:10:19
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, it's really, really unflattering for poor Anna. You know, at first I kind of laugh and I went, Well, of course they're going to do that because this is done by a company that sells office equipment.

00:03:10:21 - 00:03:13:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. They're trying to get people to come back.

00:03:13:08 - 00:03:38:20
Wayne Turmel
People need to go back to the office because who else are they going to sell to? Right. And this is part of a larger pattern of people trying to scare essentially people back to work. The most famous example lately was Jamie Dimon’s keynote in Australia from JPMorgan Chase, who said, this is nonsense. We are banking, this is how it's done.

00:03:38:22 - 00:04:06:05
Wayne Turmel
Get your butts to the office. We're not going to fire you if you choose flexibility. But you have taken yourself off the career track and you are just on the work track and that's how it's going to go. And two months later, of course, the rumblings are people are quitting, people are not applying in the numbers that they're used to, having people apply to them, too.

00:04:06:05 - 00:04:15:19
Wayne Turmel
Right. You know, there are consequences to this. The problem, when people take these kind of draconian steps is the inevitably backfires.

00:04:15:21 - 00:04:16:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:04:16:15 - 00:04:35:08
Wayne Turmel
And it backfires for a couple of reasons. It seems to me. And, you know, feel free. I mean, what would you do if somebody said this to you? Right. The first thing is, well, when we hired you, you were expected to come into the office and nothing has changed, to which the whole world says, Oh, really?

00:04:35:09 - 00:04:39:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I was sorry. The last three years suggest otherwise.

00:04:39:03 - 00:05:03:09
Wayne Turmel
Seems to me a lot to change. And and so some of that is is true. There are also reports there was a big thing in Fortune and you expect this from fortune. It's like with anything in the news you need to consider the source and where the information comes from. Fortune magazine is Fortune 500, very establishment, New York centric, whatever.

00:05:03:15 - 00:05:20:11
Wayne Turmel
And they're saying, no, no, no,.You know how for the last years we've been saying people have actually been just as productive or more productive. Now, magically, they are 30% less productive working from all CFOs. And people are grabbing this information and waving it in the air going, Aha, told you.

00:05:20:13 - 00:05:35:01
Marisa Eikenberry
I had somebody do that on Twitter with me today. And I was like, “And if you also look at that article, it will also tell you that part of the reason why there is an issue is because they don't know what they're doing. They don't know how to manage the team. There's communication issues. It's like, Oh, crazy. We teach all of those things.”

00:05:35:04 - 00:05:37:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Those are all fixable problems.

00:05:37:16 - 00:06:14:23
Wayne Turmel
They are. I mean, yes, you can certainly come to the Kevin Eikenberry Group and we would love to have that conversation with you, dear listener. But I think that speaks to the larger issue, which is, is the lack of collaboration, is the lack of productivity, is the kind of shirking responsibility a function of people working from home? Is it a function of the workers kind of the nuts are running the asylum kind of approach, or is it a failure of leadership?

00:06:15:00 - 00:06:48:01
Wayne Turmel
And when we talk about a failure of leadership, we talk about things like have the expectations been expressed? Are the realist patients, are the expectations realistic, exact right. If you're comparing productivity to the beginning of the pandemic, it probably is that because of the beginning of the pandemic, people had zero boundaries and they were actually working way more hours and it settled down to where they have now figured out whatever their schedule is going to be.

00:06:48:03 - 00:06:56:23
Wayne Turmel
Right? So if you're measuring productivity against 18 months ago or two years ago, it probably is down a little bit.

00:06:57:01 - 00:07:13:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Well, in real quick before you move on, like I'm noticing that in a lot of these articles, they are citing studies for 2020, not just because of like work hours and things like that, but it's also like, you know, oh, well, in 2020 we did a survey and and people that were working from home had had a really bad mental health experience.

00:07:13:05 - 00:07:31:10
Marisa Eikenberry
And it was like, of course they did. We all did like you, like we're pros at this. And I struggled. Why? Because I wasn't used to working in the same room with my husband because the world was on fire outside like 2020 is not a good representation of what remote work is or was.

00:07:31:12 - 00:07:59:04
Wayne Turmel
Or let's assume that that shouldn't be the baseline for anything. But but to your point, the other reason for that is this research. Ah, lag involved lagging indicators, right? We're just now getting the numbers from 2021. It takes time to gather, collate, process and look at the numbers. So the numbers are always lagging behind where the current state is.

00:07:59:06 - 00:08:00:01
Marisa Eikenberry
What makes sense.

00:08:00:03 - 00:08:32:19
Wayne Turmel
What isn't lagging behind is the employment numbers and the number of people voting with their feet. And I want to be careful while we're talking about this, that we are not talking about legitimate requests for time in the office. We are not talking about we are talking about going so far overboard in painting a picture of doom and gloom that you are setting yourself up for tension with your employees that do not need to exist.

00:08:32:21 - 00:08:38:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. I mean, to your point, earlier, you mentioned Jamie ‘Demon’ like or Dimon, I think.

00:08:38:23 - 00:08:43:03
Wayne Turmel
Nice Freudian slip. Thank you. Nicely done.

00:08:43:05 - 00:08:45:17
Marisa Eikenberry
My bad. That was legitimately not intentional.

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:48:08
Wayne Turmel
That's why it's a Freudian slip.

00:08:48:10 - 00:09:05:16
Marisa Eikenberry
But anyway, but asking the managing directors back to the office five days a week, why does it have to be five days a week? And your gut instinct of, well, this is how, you know, the brainstorming discussions and impromptu meetings and like, you know, all of those things suck actually.

00:09:05:18 - 00:09:24:08
Wayne Turmel
Well, and it's two martini lunches. And, you know, there's lots of things that happen when people are in the office and they're not all brilliant. And some of this is legit pining for the before times. I can blame nobody for wanting to pretend the last couple of years of not happened.

00:09:24:10 - 00:09:25:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:09:25:06 - 00:09:53:15
Wayne Turmel
I can blame nobody for that. That's a mental health coping mechanism and I understand that and we're looking forward to what's next and how are we going to run our company and how are we going to become an employer of choice? And and there are very real issues to be addressed. One of the most important things and I interviewed Phil Simon, the author of The Nine Tectonic Forces Reshaping Work.

00:09:53:16 - 00:10:22:04
Wayne Turmel
And if you get a chance to read that book, do it. But one of the things that he kind of low key highlighted, what is super important is what are the metrics when people are saying productivity is down defined is what? Right. I mean, if I have a call center and I expect people to handle X number of calls a day or handle X number of tickets, that's a legitimate assuming it's a legitimate, realistic number to start with, of course.

00:10:22:04 - 00:10:24:01
Wayne Turmel
But that's a legitimate metric.

00:10:24:03 - 00:10:26:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. If it's down, it's down, right?

00:10:26:08 - 00:10:55:02
Wayne Turmel
If it's down, if people aren't servicing enough customers, if call times have gotten so much longer, that's a legitimate thing. Now, is that a function of being from home? Is that a function of not being properly coached and trained? Is that a function of. I haven't spoken to that employee since the last numbers came out. Right. Which means I'm not coaching them and I'm not developing them and I'm not giving them feedback on their performance.

00:10:55:04 - 00:11:04:11
Wayne Turmel
So the metrics that we choose to measure productivity and unfortunate way they are not easy to come up with.

00:11:04:13 - 00:11:09:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I mean, I would say productivity, but to your point, like, what does it mean?

00:11:09:12 - 00:11:26:07
Wayne Turmel
Right? And the problem is that the minute we measure something that then becomes the standard. So if it's are you logged on and do you stay available to your coworkers all day, that becomes the metric.

00:11:26:09 - 00:11:29:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Which is great. But you could also do that and be watching Netflix all day.

00:11:29:07 - 00:11:41:16
Wayne Turmel
Do Exactly. If you know, if you've got your little mouse jingle or you've got keystroke software, and for every keystroke monitoring software, somebody in their basement comes up with a way to beat it.

00:11:41:18 - 00:11:42:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, of course.

00:11:42:11 - 00:11:48:09
Wayne Turmel
Right. And and we've talked before about kind of, you know, workplace theater.

00:11:48:11 - 00:11:48:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:11:48:20 - 00:12:23:04
Wayne Turmel
This notion that I will pretend to be available all day and you will pretend that everything is fine. All right. So we really, really, really need to get smart, not just about creating the metrics, but stating expectations and explaining why they matter and are these the metrics that are really important? And honestly, we are in a period of chaos where a lot of the metrics that we've used in the past just don't make sense.

00:12:23:06 - 00:12:25:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay. So can you describe some of those?

00:12:25:19 - 00:12:42:12
Wayne Turmel
Well, I'm I'm talking about things like, you know, logging in at a certain time, logging off at a certain time, being available. Right. Participating in meetings, for example. Participating in meetings is an expectation of the job.

00:12:42:14 - 00:12:43:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00:12:43:16 - 00:13:11:17
Wayne Turmel
Why do you have any business in that meeting? Do you legitimately have things to contribute? Does it matter that a 9:00 meeting in Indianapolis is a 6:00 meeting for me and maybe I don't need to be there or I don't need to be there at that time. I can watch the recording and and still contribute asynchronously to things.

00:13:11:22 - 00:13:16:02
Marisa Eikenberry
And does it need to be a meeting at all, or could it have been a video for everyone?

00:13:16:04 - 00:13:24:16
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. Does it have to be a meeting at all those types of things? We're still figuring them out and we all need to cut each other some slack.

00:13:24:19 - 00:13:25:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:13:25:13 - 00:13:53:08
Wayne Turmel
You know, if I have. I mean, I keep doing the math and it disturbs me, but basically I am 30 years, give or take, into my big boy management career. I have developed some habits. I have developed some default assumptions about how things happen. Some of them may still be valid, some of them may just be the result of being raised by wolves.

00:13:53:13 - 00:14:16:03
Wayne Turmel
Some of them might. I mean, there's lots of reasons why I think the way I think and what we need to do senior leadership managers, team members, we need to sit down and look at what is the work that needs to be done, who does the work, when does the work need to happen to achieve the outputs that we want to have?

00:14:16:03 - 00:14:23:13
Wayne Turmel
And if we focus our metrics on outputs, it becomes less important what happens where.

00:14:23:15 - 00:14:24:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:14:24:05 - 00:14:36:08
Wayne Turmel
As long as the outputs get met and if the outputs require being in the same place at the same time. If I'm great clips, I need to be in the store where people's heads are in order to make this happen.

00:14:36:11 - 00:14:48:02
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, there might be some things that you need to come to the office a couple of times a week. You know, we've talked about this several times that we are not anti office, we are pro remote work and those are two very different things.

00:14:48:04 - 00:15:10:12
Wayne Turmel
They are and that kind of gets lost in the in the discussion. So, you know, we've been talking about the scare tactics and I always come back and I know your eyes roll every time I do this. I always come back to the Spider-Man point, which is kind of, you know, with great power comes great responsibility.

00:15:10:12 - 00:15:11:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Okay.

00:15:11:15 - 00:15:27:09
Wayne Turmel
And this applies to the workers. We are at a new age where we have more flexibility than ever before. I don't like to say the word earn it, but we have been like, screw it up.

00:15:27:11 - 00:15:28:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:15:28:05 - 00:15:47:08
Wayne Turmel
And that's going to take maybe a little more effort. It's going to take a little different focus. It's going to take some training and learning to do things maybe better or different or faster than we did. And so it's not all on the employers. We need to step up from our end as well.

00:15:47:10 - 00:16:04:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. And I think also, you know, for our leaders and stuff, when we see these scare tactic articles that come out and if they have this moment of, oh, no, I have to bring everybody back to the office, look at who did the study, because it's probably a corporate real estate agent or in this case an office furniture person or.

00:16:04:13 - 00:16:05:22
Wayne Turmel
Or I mean, the case.

00:16:06:00 - 00:16:07:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Lab. Well, somebody who's.

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:37:00
Wayne Turmel
Anything coming from Coldwell Banker or. Yeah, see, Ellis, Anything. You got to recognize that in major cities, the buildings are still occupied, but they're at 50% capacity on average, right? So even if they are having people come back to the office on any given day, 50% of the offices are empty and the deaths are empty overtime. That's unsustainable.

00:16:37:06 - 00:16:43:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, of course. And that's why, you know, some companies have, you know, downsized their office spaces or things of that nature, I guess.

00:16:43:13 - 00:17:07:17
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. I mean, it's easier at first blush to wave the wand and say, okay, let's get back everybody in so we can look around and feel better about ourselves. But ultimately they're going to have to be over time, some very hard choices made. So the return to office, the scramble to get everybody back is a needed three step to the long term considerations that are going to happen.

00:17:07:19 - 00:17:28:21
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, they're treating the symptoms, not the problem. Well, Wayne, thank you so much for this discussion. I had a lot of fun and I hope our listeners got a real kick out of it, too. And so, listeners, thank you so much for listening to the Long-Distance Worklife. For show notes, transcripts and other resources make sure to visit longdistanceworklife.com if you haven't yet subscribe to our show so you won't miss any future episodes. While you're there

00:17:28:22 - 00:17:44:05
Marisa Eikenberry
be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our shownotes. And let us know you listen to this episode or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode, including pet peeves. We'd still love to hear yours.

00:17:44:07 - 00:18:01:11
Marisa Eikenberry
If you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long-Distance Team. You can learn more about the book at LongDistanceTeamBook.com. Thanks for joining us. As Wayne likes to say, don’t let the weasels get you down.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction
01:39 New York Post article from Furniture at Work
04:06 Jamie Dimon's keynote speech about return to office
06:15 Potential failure of leadership in remote work and the importance of setting realistic expectations
07:13 Use of outdated studies and the unique circumstances of 2020
09:05 Need to redefine productivity metrics and focus on outputs rather than physical presence
11:48 Being pro-remote work does not mean being anti-office and the importance of finding a balance
15:11 Encouraging remote workers to embrace the responsibility that comes with the flexibility of remote work
17:44 Conclusion

Related Episodes

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

Order

Guests, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Thriving as an Introvert in Remote Work with Janice Chaka

Wayne Turmel speaks with Janice Chaka, CEO of the Career Introvert. They debunk common myths about introverts thriving in remote work, discuss the challenges and opportunities introverts face, and emphasize the importance of individual needs, open communication, and setting boundaries. Janice shares strategies for introverts to showcase their achievements, maintain visibility, and navigate hybrid work arrangements. Join them as they empower introverts to thrive in the remote work era and embrace their unique strengths.

Key Takeaways

1. Not all introverts thrive in remote work environments. Janice highlights the importance of considering individual circumstances, work environments, and support systems in determining success.

2. Effective communication and setting boundaries are crucial for remote workers, especially introverts. Regular check-ins with managers, discussing expectations, and finding preferred communication styles help maintain productivity and work-life balance.

3. Janice shares strategies for introverts to showcase their accomplishments in remote work settings. Keeping track of successes, collecting positive feedback, and utilizing data can help introverts build a strong case for recognition and advancement.

4. With the return to office spaces, it's essential to clarify the definition of hybrid work during job interviews. Understanding the requirements, flexibility, and potential changes in the future ensures alignment with personal preferences and work-life balance.

5. Emphasizing the importance of embracing introverts' unique strengths and needs. By understanding themselves and effectively communicating with their managers, introverts can navigate remote work successfully and thrive in their careers.

View Full Transcript

00:00:07:21 - 00:00:31:09
Wayne Turmel
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Long Distance WorkLife, the podcast designed to help us thrive, survive, live, just generally keep the weasels at bay as we adjust to the ever evolving work of remote work and hybrid work and figuring out who does what with which to whom where. I'm Wayne Turmel. I am your host today.

00:00:31:09 - 00:00:52:01
Wayne Turmel
Marisa is not with us. But do not despair. We have an excellent conversation with a colleague of mine, Janice Chaka, and we are going to bring her in right now to discuss introverts and remote work and all of that good stuff. Ms.. Janice. Hello.

00:00:52:02 - 00:00:54:16
Janice Chaka
Hi.

00:00:54:18 - 00:00:56:04
Janice Chaka
Thank you. For that great introduction.

00:00:56:07 - 00:01:06:17
Wayne Turmel
Just chair dancing away, which is what we love here on the show. Janice, very quickly. Who are you? What is the career introvert? And then we'll get into our conversation.

00:01:06:19 - 00:01:25:22
Janice Chaka
All right. So my name is Janice Chaka, and I am the CEO of the Career Introvert, which basically means I do a lot of things to help introverts be successful, whether it be courses one on one, coaching, leadership, coaching, keynote speaking, whatever it is, it's all designed to help introverts survive and thrive in the workplace or starting their own business.

00:01:25:22 - 00:01:55:23
Wayne Turmel
Excellent. So here's why I wanted to have this conversation. There's been a lot of chat, most of it silly about who thrives in remote work, who can be successful? Who can't. Who likes it? Who doesn't. And one of the things and it's not a myth in its entirety is this notion that introverts love remote work and extroverts want to be in the office partying it up.

00:01:56:01 - 00:02:17:10
Wayne Turmel
And I saw by the look on your face and for those of you listening to the audio, she has heard this nonsense more than enough. So let's start there. I mean, this notion of, you know, who likes to sit in the dark and work by themselves and who likes human companionship, The whole conversation has gotten a little out of hand.

00:02:17:12 - 00:02:43:22
Janice Chaka
Well, because it's based on a lot of assumptions. It's based on the assumptions that introverts who get to work from home are in that ideal environment all the time, that they're not sitting at the kitchen table with the kids screaming around them or not taking care of an elderly relative or whatever the absolute amazing environment would be. You know, not all of us have like three screens and ergonomic chair and a table that does fancy things.

00:02:44:00 - 00:03:08:18
Janice Chaka
A lot of the conversation is based on assumptions. And don't get me wrong. Of course, just like anything, there are some people who definitely enjoyed it. There was. There's good points and bad points to all, and it depends on the work that you do. It depends on the community. You have the support. You have the mentorship, you have the work environment, the culture of the organization.

00:03:08:20 - 00:03:22:10
Janice Chaka
There's so many things that come into play that you can't just blanket statement like, Oh, all the vets are super happy about the lockdown and we all have to work from home. And they were all very, very happy because, I mean, have you tried to work from home with an extra rep partner?

00:03:22:12 - 00:03:40:00
Wayne Turmel
Frighteningly enough, as excited as people think I am. I am one of those borderline extroverts who suck it up when I have to. And on a scale of 1 to 10, my bride is an 11 extrovert. So, yes, I feel your pain.

00:03:40:02 - 00:04:01:14
Janice Chaka
My partner has to have noise on all the time. If it's not TV, the radio, podcast, music, something. And I'm just I, I, I have headphones. Luckily, there's enough space that we can do this in separate rooms. But not everyone has that luxury. So, yes, there is lots of blanket statements. That is a lot of assumptions and no one's asking, no one's curious.

00:04:01:14 - 00:04:18:21
Janice Chaka
And people forget that we're all individuals. And sometimes it's really nice to be in the office, sometimes not be in the office, sometimes you need to do cognitive work, sometimes whiteboards work better than Zoom sometimes, and tech fails and we don't have the space that we would like that would be good for us with plants and a natural sunlight.

00:04:18:21 - 00:04:28:10
Janice Chaka
And there's just so much there and we just all forget that we're all human and individual and have individual needs and wants and desires that can make things good or bad.

00:04:28:12 - 00:05:00:18
Wayne Turmel
And so we've struggled through three years and we've managed to make it work, much to the absolute amazement of senior leaders. Largely, we didn't for a moment believe this was going to work. And now we are in this weird transition time where we're returning to office, kind of sort of. And there's a feeling that, you know, those are ungrateful workers are resisting returning to the office.

00:05:00:18 - 00:05:27:06
Wayne Turmel
I get the sense, and this is why I wanted to have this conversation with you. I get the sense that a lot of people are happy to go back to the quote unquote, good old days where everything that managed your career was about networking and being extroverted and drawing attention to yourself and all kinds of things. And that wasn't such a swell thing before.

00:05:27:06 - 00:05:39:01
Wayne Turmel
And I suspect it's probably not as well thing now. What are you seeing in terms of return to the office and who's looking forward to it and who's not?

00:05:39:06 - 00:06:06:10
Janice Chaka
Generally speaking, almost no one is looking forward to it. They look forward to it. If there is degrees of flexibility, not if you have to be in every Friday or three days a week or five days a week if it doesn't work for the life that they have now created. Because life didn't stand still for these past three years, people got used to certain things, try different things, got a taste of different things, and now want something else out of their work life.

00:06:06:12 - 00:06:32:06
Janice Chaka
And organizations like haven't clued into that or not being flexible enough for that. And as far as the having to be in the office and have that face time so your managers can see you and know exactly what you're doing. The world of productivity is a whole other side segment on that. But what I'm seeing is a lot of people just wanting to know, okay, I want to show up.

00:06:32:06 - 00:07:13:00
Janice Chaka
I want to spend time and do well at my work, but my bosses or my supervisors or whoever's in charge, expectations are still back in 2019 and it hasn't moved forward because as far as they're concerned, we need to go back to normal. And in their minds, normal is whatever used to happen in 2019. And so you find a lot of people struggling to communicate, and especially now with a lot of people are being laid off, communicate that worth because they feel that they have to do that, go back to the office or else I will be cut because it is now used as a retaliatory retaliation, retaliate, retaliation.

00:07:13:00 - 00:07:14:04
Wayne Turmel
Military is.

00:07:14:06 - 00:07:53:09
Janice Chaka
Retaliatory thing. And if you do well, you get to stay working from home. But if the boss doesn't like you, you have to come back into the office. It's used as a tool to bash people over the head that is really vindictive and petty. And it shows it highlights just how bad managers are, how much training managers haven't had to be leaders in a remote environment, and hybrid and hybrid is such a it's a spoken word, but how we can mean anything from coming in once a month, once a week, once a year, once it's so vague and so with people wanting to show up more, it's a case of you can still do the

00:07:53:09 - 00:08:15:01
Janice Chaka
same things that you used to do. I'm sure your manager doesn't know everything you used to do. So once a week, send him an email. Hey, here's my successes, here's my losses. And so your manager knows or whatever their preferred communication style is, you definitely have some people who are like, No, my boss likes email or a spreadsheet or numbers or like a pretty canvas or whatever it might be communicate.

00:08:15:04 - 00:08:32:09
Janice Chaka
If you don't know what your managers expectations are, you kind of have to ask them to fit in with that. And as far as the networking part of it is concerned, I know some people who thrived over the last three years that working remotely and I kind of have this collaboration, I'm doing this, I'm doing this other thing, and we're human.

00:08:32:09 - 00:09:01:14
Janice Chaka
We all do like that in-person interaction. But what I've seen also is a lot of organizations being like, well, coming back in, we're going to do an Employee Appreciation Day, which is wonderful. And then they shove every last thing that could possibly find into this two days to the point that I spoke at one event where they didn't really get lunch because someone was speaking at them while they ate lunch during their Employee Appreciation Day and there was no bathroom breaks.

00:09:01:16 - 00:09:27:07
Wayne Turmel
Okay. So aside from places that violate the Geneva Convention, what you said sounds truly awful. I want to go back to something that you said, which I think is really important. Kevin and I have talked on many occasions in the long distance books about ethical visibility. This notion of you have to be visible to your manager and to your teammates, right?

00:09:27:10 - 00:10:15:17
Wayne Turmel
People have to know what you're doing and it allows you to get the reward and recognition that you need. And you said something that is a blinding flash of the obvious, but also people don't always heed, which is this notion of how does your mic, how will your manager know how you're doing right? Because they have to do performance reviews and they have to do stuff right as managers, How what are you finding works successfully if you are not fond of tooting your own horn and you're, you know, and you're you want to be from home more often than not, what kinds of things are managers worried about and what are you seeing people do

00:10:15:23 - 00:10:22:18
Wayne Turmel
that allows them to successful early make their case and stay on the radar?

00:10:22:20 - 00:10:52:05
Janice Chaka
Data Data is key. Any time a client, a coworker, a insert here says something nice about you or the work that you've done or how you've helped them pass that along. Also keep a copy of it. So when it comes to your annual review, you have it once a week. Do review. What have your successes been? But really bad because we're so stuck in the weeds of just getting things done and it is hard to celebrate your wins.

00:10:52:07 - 00:11:10:10
Janice Chaka
Just go and look at your calendar, see how many meetings you had, what projects you finished, how or how, what progress you made in the projects. And write those down. Keep a little file, keep a notebook, keep a OneNote like Evernote, insert note here and you'll be amazed when you start going back and reviewing that like once a month.

00:11:10:10 - 00:11:33:12
Janice Chaka
Oh man, I did all of these things. I didn't realize that because we forget. Like I can tell you what I ate last Tuesday. Like, I don't know, but if you have that written down or voicemails, if that works better for you, you then have that data to go ahead and use that for promotion, to use that to say, look at all the stuff that I did and honestly for yourself is really important for you to acknowledge what you've done.

00:11:33:12 - 00:11:57:21
Janice Chaka
And sometimes it's really hard because you're just trying to get through each and every day. And so example, one thing I teach my clients is this You get to see video, we'll see this. I have a box. If you're British, you will know what this is not, but you're going to be very confused. And in this box, I'm supposed to once a week go through and be like things I've achieved and it doesn't have to be like I saved the world.

00:11:57:23 - 00:12:21:10
Janice Chaka
It can be. I managed to do eight back to back meetings without crying. Like whatever it is, that means success for you is very, very personal. Then go ahead and put that in the box and then New Year's Eve. Or when you're having a bad day. OpenTable and kind of look at it, look at all the things that you've got and it'll cheer you up.

00:12:21:12 - 00:12:22:16
Janice Chaka
Shocking.

00:12:22:18 - 00:12:47:19
Wayne Turmel
Yeah. And I mean, you know, keeping the sweets box full of stuff is is lovely. I simply have a folder in my outlook and when somebody says thank you so much or they send me a note, it just gets copied over there and I have it right. So when I have and of course we are very good here because Kevin is a terrific manager.

00:12:48:00 - 00:13:13:08
Wayne Turmel
We have regular conversations about performance, right? It's not like, okay, we talked about goals in January and now it's November and you have to dance for grandma and prove your value. This is an ongoing conversation in our world, which is also part of the thing, right? Is this ongoing conversation and keeping people in the loop instead of having to save everything up.

00:13:13:08 - 00:13:17:10
Wayne Turmel
And then, you know, justify your very existence.

00:13:17:12 - 00:13:38:02
Janice Chaka
Yes, very much so. And and that calls into play the company culture. Are they doing regular check ups or is it the annual review that everyone hates, building that relationship with your manager, putting time on the calendar and you could just be chat or like, what am I done? This? The old people talk about like roses and thorns.

00:13:38:02 - 00:13:55:00
Janice Chaka
Like, what am I to roses and what is my one thorn and what's holding me back? Or I need help with the more you communicate with your leader, the more they get to know you and your style and what works for you and what doesn't. And this is also for introverts, to be fair, how you can set your boundaries.

00:13:55:02 - 00:14:12:04
Janice Chaka
But I haven't been able to work on this project because I've just been in useless meetings. Maybe don't sell useless meetings for the past three days. Can I get a two hour block of time where I can put do not disturb and not be like not have blowback for helping you set boundaries and then your productivity will get better.

00:14:12:04 - 00:14:35:05
Janice Chaka
Your work will get better. They'll understand how you work and why you work that way. Yeah, there's so many little things that can be done outside of the company culture itself, but at the end of the day, knowing what your manager is looking for and what their manager is looking for is really important. So you can hit those targets, whatever it is that your boss has to do and show and prove that they're worth you to help them get there.

00:14:35:10 - 00:14:39:06
Janice Chaka
And if they don't communicate that to you, you have to, you know, poke the burn.

00:14:39:08 - 00:15:02:16
Wayne Turmel
A couple of things, too. What you just said. One is and I cannot stress this enough, and I hope that you would agree with me the single most powerful thing you can do to save your sanity is when you get that eighth meeting invitation is just start asking, do I really need to be there? And I'm serious as a heart attack.

00:15:02:16 - 00:15:26:11
Wayne Turmel
This isn't a whiny, you know, I didn't want to go to the meeting kind of thing. This is you have task me with doing X amount of work. How does this meeting fit into the priorities? It's a very simple question and it takes a certain amount of chutzpah, courage, whatever virtue, know whatever name you want to apply to it.

00:15:26:13 - 00:16:01:16
Wayne Turmel
But it's incredibly powerful and saves your sanity. More often than not. The second thing kind of ties to the last question that I want to ask you, which is, you know, this return to office means that some people are deciding to change jobs and people are being hired into hybrid work situations. And it's really critical that if you don't want to be horribly disappointed that you get definition on what does hybrid mean and what how do you have that negotiate?

00:16:01:22 - 00:16:10:04
Wayne Turmel
What does that look like when you are in the application? You know, you've gotten to the interview stage for the job.

00:16:10:05 - 00:16:15:12
Janice Chaka
Honestly, it should be before that should be in the job description. But that wasn't the question you asked me. So.

00:16:15:14 - 00:16:21:10
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, well, you know, in a perfect world.

00:16:21:12 - 00:16:42:22
Janice Chaka
So it's a case of, okay, if it's a new role that has been created and no one's ever had it before. But the question is how do you see it hybrid working for this in this role? What is the hybrid requirement for this role? What has the hybrid requirement been in the past or what would would it look like in the future?

00:16:43:00 - 00:17:02:22
Janice Chaka
Maybe what the hybrid requirement is for the department and and also question why? Because definitely some organizations that are just like, I have to be here two days a week. Why? Because, like, if there's a good reason, it's real because we have a team meeting, then we do this cognitive thing where we do board whatever. It's a specifically cannot be done online.

00:17:03:00 - 00:17:25:00
Janice Chaka
Great. If they just like because, hey, grab something that you are okay with and also ask, has this changed recently? And do you think this will change in the future? Because I've definitely had a lot of people who have signed up for a hybrid role been told it's one day a week, and then as soon as they're in the door and signed that contract, all of a sudden it's like, well, actually such and such is going on maternity leave.

00:17:25:00 - 00:17:50:11
Janice Chaka
So you need to be like three days a week. And that's not what they signed up for. That's not what they wanted. But they've got a job, so they like sitting up and shutting up so very much ask and ask what happens if it changes? How much advance notice would happen? A lot of organizations don't have these things in place because they are muddying through, but it should give the child something to think about and that you're serious about what it is you want from a role.

00:17:50:13 - 00:18:24:11
Wayne Turmel
I love the lovely British British term muddying up because basically we are all making this up as we go, which is an amazingly terrific opportune time to create your own path since the current path. It's all over at the moment. Janice, it's always so good to talk to you. I am delighted to have you with us. I am going to remove you from the room while I say our goodbyes.

00:18:24:16 - 00:18:48:06
Wayne Turmel
Yes, I know if you are and you should be interested in learning more about Janice and what she does, we will have links to her LinkedIn and the career introvert and other things in our show notes which are found at longdistanceworklife.com. If you've enjoyed the show, you listen to podcasts or you wouldn't be here.

00:18:48:06 - 00:19:19:18
Wayne Turmel
You know the drill. Please like subscribe tell your friends. Marisa has done yeoman's service in just barely a year. We have passed our 5,000th download, which is ridiculous, but thank you all for that. We are starting a series of regular segments on the show, including pet peeves and questions that you have about remote working. So we urge you to send those in to us.

00:19:19:22 - 00:19:45:01
Wayne Turmel
You can find either Marisa or I on LinkedIn or you can email us at Kevin Eikenberry Group and we are delighted if you are interested in team culture and figuring out how to structure your team. Our new book, The Long-Distance Team: Designing your Team for everyone's Success is out in the world. Thank you so much for joining us again.

00:19:45:01 - 00:19:53:16
Wayne Turmel
For heaven's sake, check out past episodes on longdistanceworklife.com. My name is Wayne Turmel. Don't let the weasels get you down.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction
01:25 Janice Chaka's bio and her work in helping introverts in remote work
02:17 Debunking the myth that all introverts love remote work and highlighting the importance of individual circumstances.
05:00 The resistance towards returning to the office and the misconception that everyone is eager to go back.
07:13 Challenges in communicating worth and dealing with vindictive office culture.
10:15 Strategies for introverts to showcase their achievements and maintain visibility.
13:13 The power of ongoing communication and check-ins with managers to set boundaries and foster productivity.
16:01 Clarifying hybrid work arrangements during job interviews and understanding the requirements and potential changes.
18:24 Closing

Related Episodes

Featured Guest

Name: Janice Chaka

What She Does: CEO of Career Introvert

Bio: Janice Chaka is a respected international leadership and organizational coach, business owner, podcaster, and introvert and impostor syndrome expert. Long before "working remote" was hip, she worked at fortune 10 companies leading remote recruiting teams. Known as The Career Introvert, Janice excels at solving complex HR challenges, creating learning content for organizations, and setting boundaries as an introvert -- Janice has discovered the strategies to make her introverted strengths turn into a successful company. Janice's experience of operating as an executive coach and as a consultant has made her a seasoned business partner for companies.

Additional Resources

Order The Long-Distance Team

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Ask Wayne Anything, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

Embracing the Johari Window for Team Success

In this week's episode, Marisa and Wayne revisit a topic mentioned in a previous episode about the Johari Window. They explore how this powerful model, developed by psychologists in 1955, can enhance communication and understanding within remote and hybrid teams. Discover the four quadrants of the Johari Window and how they reveal what is known and unknown to oneself and others. Learn why transparent and intentional communication is crucial in remote work settings, as cues and non-verbal signals are often missed. Discover practical tips and best practices for leaders to utilize the Johari Window framework to improve team dynamics and foster trust. Join us for this engaging conversation as we unlock the potential of the Johari Window for remote work success!

Key Takeaways

1. The Johari Window is a powerful model that helps explain the dynamics of understanding and communication. It consists of four quadrants representing what is known to oneself, known to others, unknown to oneself, and unknown to others.

2. Effective communication is vital in remote and hybrid team environments. Without the ability to rely on non-verbal cues or in-person interactions, intentional and transparent communication becomes even more critical for understanding and avoiding misunderstandings.

3. The Johari Window can be used as a tool to foster trust and improve relationships within remote teams. By sharing knowledge, motivations, and information with team members, individuals can reduce blind spots and increase mutual understanding.

4. Leaders play a crucial role in improving communication and utilizing the Johari Window effectively. They should encourage open dialogue, ask clarifying questions, and create a transparent environment where team members feel comfortable sharing their thoughts, feelings, and concerns.

5. In remote work settings, it's essential to pay attention to changing behaviors or signs that something may be off with team members. Remote work can make it harder to notice when someone is struggling or facing challenges, so being attuned to these changes and initiating supportive conversations is crucial.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction
00:08 Defining the Johari Window

00:33 Understanding Remote Application

02:13 Importance of Communication

05:00 Applying the Johari Window to Remote Work

05:29 Recognizing Communication Challenges

10:22 Using the Johari Window Framework

11:18 Drawbacks and Trust

12:56 Best Practices for Leaders

15:08 Closing

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View Full Transcript

00:00:08:10 - 00:00:11:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Welcome back to the long distance work life where we help you lead,

00:00:11:10 - 00:00:19:13
Marisa Eikenberry
work, and thrive on remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi.

00:00:19:15 - 00:00:22:05
Wayne Turmel
Hey, that would be me. Hi, Marisa.

00:00:22:07 - 00:00:23:12
Marisa Eikenberry
How are you doing today?

00:00:23:14 - 00:00:33:02
Wayne Turmel
I am swell. I. I'm excited. Today's topic is very fun and it's the kind of geeky thing that makes me happy, so.

00:00:33:04 - 00:00:48:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Awesome. Well, for those of you who have been listening for a while, or maybe you just tuned in to our Managers are the Heartbeat episode, Wayne mentioned something called the Johari Window and said we need to talk about it in future episode because we didn't have time right then. So today's the day and we're going to talk about that.

00:00:48:13 - 00:00:52:12
Marisa Eikenberry
So, Wayne, why don't we start with what is the Johari window?

00:00:52:14 - 00:00:59:23
Wayne Turmel
The January window is a model and like all successful models, it's deceptively simple.

00:01:00:01 - 00:01:00:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:01:00:15 - 00:01:46:10
Wayne Turmel
Basically a good consultant for Square. These two psychologists in about 1955 came up with this. And it's an attempt to explain why people don't always understand each other and what makes sense. And so if you picture a square and there's things that are known to our cells on the Y axis and across the bottom, you've got things that are known to others and you've got these four boxes and they're basically when it comes to yourself, there are things that you know about yourself.

00:01:46:12 - 00:01:47:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Of course.

00:01:47:09 - 00:02:13:22
Wayne Turmel
And then there are things that you don't know about. So it's subconscious unconscious things that we do. And then next to that, there are things others know about you. So there are things you know, and there are things that others know about you. Wayne is an extrovert, but not as much as we think he is. So if he gets tired and grumpy, leave him alone.

00:02:13:22 - 00:02:16:08
Wayne Turmel
He'll be all better. Everybody knows that.

00:02:16:12 - 00:02:28:23
Marisa Eikenberry
You're right. And for those of you who are listening on audio, we're going to have a link to what this looks like in the show notes. And those of you that are watching on video, you're actually seeing the Johari window or have already seen it in this episode.

00:02:29:00 - 00:02:50:18
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, we know that about Wayne. So if we're going to work with Wayne, he knows that it's no surprise to him that he can be a grumpy, cranky old man and everybody else knows it too. But he's harmless and so no harm, no foul. But there are also things that they might not know or that they might know that I don't.

00:02:50:20 - 00:02:51:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00:02:51:06 - 00:03:18:06
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, right. So there's things I know that I know there are things that I don't know. There are things about other people that I don't know, and there are things that other people don't know about me. And that's essentially the model. And it makes sense. I think I use the cynically I used an example from the Gulf War where Donald Rumsfeld said there are things we know, there are things we know we don't know.

00:03:18:08 - 00:03:22:11
Wayne Turmel
There are things we don't know that we don't.

00:03:22:13 - 00:03:24:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah. You know what you don't know.

00:03:24:19 - 00:03:44:01
Wayne Turmel
And all of this is a way of saying that any time you're in a work environment, communication is important. The more you share knowledge, the more you know and your colleagues or your boss or your customers know, the less chance there is for misunderstanding.

00:03:44:03 - 00:03:45:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:03:45:08 - 00:04:03:08
Wayne Turmel
Now, the next question, because you are nothing if not a professional and you have a list in Philadelphia. The next question. Because I know that about Marisa. You see how that works. The next obvious question is when we're talking about remote work.

00:04:03:09 - 00:04:05:03
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. How does this apply?

00:04:05:05 - 00:04:26:22
Wayne Turmel
Right. How does this apply? And the answer is that on one hand, like so much that we talk about here, it's exactly the same, right, when you're working on a team. If you don't share your motivations, if you don't share information that you know with your team, it makes it harder for them. There's a better chance for misunderstanding.

00:04:26:22 - 00:04:51:23
Wayne Turmel
There's a chance the quality of the work won't be as good. But of course, in a in person setting, there are cues and there are sort of things in the air that you pick up by osmosis. You know something's bugging Marisa today. What's going on? I know that because I look at you and you get that little forehead scratchy thing, and that's great.

00:04:51:23 - 00:05:00:11
Wayne Turmel
If the only contact I have with you is on Slack and you typed me a message. I may not know that your forehead is screeching.

00:05:00:12 - 00:05:01:06
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:05:01:08 - 00:05:17:17
Wayne Turmel
It's thing. And so that's why it's important in a remote environment to intentionally and appropriately help people get access to information that they need.

00:05:17:19 - 00:05:29:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. It's just like we talk about all the time, like communication is super important and we need to be communicating with the members of our team and our managers and our leaders and our leaders need to be communicated. The employees and you get the whole deal.

00:05:29:13 - 00:05:43:00
Wayne Turmel
Well, I do. And here's the thing that I like about models. None of them are perfect. Of course, no such thing as a perfect model. And Lord knows the human beings that the models apply to are not perfect.

00:05:43:02 - 00:05:43:16
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:05:43:18 - 00:05:51:22
Wayne Turmel
But what I like is anything that I can look at that stops me in my tracks and says, Hey, have you thought about this?

00:05:51:23 - 00:05:52:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes.

00:05:52:17 - 00:06:01:03
Wayne Turmel
Right. If we aren't getting the work done, if there's a lot of maybe there's a lack of trust.

00:06:01:05 - 00:06:02:19
Marisa Eikenberry
Okay.

00:06:02:21 - 00:06:23:21
Wayne Turmel
Because I've worked with Marisa a few times and it works. Okay? Doesn't you know, here's the thing. If you're looking at the window, Marisa is going, Hey, I'm working as hard as I can. I've never done this before, or I'm a little stressed. Wayne seems like a jerk. So if I screw up, you know, it's going to. It's going to.

00:06:23:21 - 00:06:25:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Be. I don't want them to yell at me.

00:06:25:07 - 00:06:45:04
Wayne Turmel
That's what's going on in your head. Mm hmm. Right. I'm in the window of. I don't know what's going on in your head. I'm only seeing the work product. And the work product. And this is obviously not true. Dear listener, the work product is not what it should be. That's what I see.

00:06:45:06 - 00:06:46:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, that makes sense.

00:06:46:17 - 00:07:10:03
Wayne Turmel
Right now, if we have a conversation and I go, you know, the work product could, it could have more detail to it. Mm hmm. What's going on? And we have a conversation and you get to. Well, I didn't want to overloaded with detail because I was in a meeting one time, and you said somebody talked too much, and so I was trying not to do that.

00:07:10:05 - 00:07:10:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:10:18 - 00:07:19:07
Wayne Turmel
We can have a conversation about the appropriate level of detail that I need on this. And now we both know what we know.

00:07:19:09 - 00:07:20:17
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Absolutely.

00:07:20:19 - 00:07:50:16
Wayne Turmel
Right. That's the thing, is that there needs to be more explicit conversations and it's about things like how does this affect you? Right. Are you confident in this? Are you I'm confident in this. Those are sometimes uncomfortable conversations depending on your work style and your personality and who you're talking to and power structure and all kinds of things.

00:07:50:17 - 00:07:51:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:51:15 - 00:08:30:20
Wayne Turmel
And they're critical. That's how you build trust. Because if there's a bunch of stuff in the I don't know this about her, when there is a better likelihood of there being an unpleasant surprise or, you know, I don't quite trust her because what I'm seeing isn't what she's saying. And so to me, the value of this is when at the first sign of something being off, you know, there was a famous Sherlock Holmes story.

00:08:30:21 - 00:08:43:03
Wayne Turmel
So famous, of course, I don't remember the title of it, but the idea is that he knew that the killer knew the victim because the dog didn't bark.

00:08:43:05 - 00:08:45:10
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Because it wasn't a stranger. Okay.

00:08:45:12 - 00:09:01:02
Wayne Turmel
Right. It wasn't a stranger. And so the fact that there wasn't a dog bark was actually the clue. And very often in remote work, it's what you don't see, you know, And usually that takes the form of changed behavior.

00:09:01:04 - 00:09:08:06
Marisa Eikenberry
I think we've talked about this a little bit before where it's like everything is fine and then something changes and it's like, oh, what happened here?

00:09:08:08 - 00:09:17:14
Wayne Turmel
And the problem is that when it changes radically and dramatically, your brain goes, Hey, wait a minute, there's something here.

00:09:17:16 - 00:09:18:07
Marisa Eikenberry
Right?

00:09:18:09 - 00:09:32:03
Wayne Turmel
It's when you get that frog in a pot. Thing and the analogy, as most of you know and I don't know who conducted this experiment because it's really nasty.

00:09:32:08 - 00:09:33:14
Marisa Eikenberry
I'm just like the poor frog.

00:09:33:17 - 00:10:00:08
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, the poor. How many frogs did they have to boil? The point is that the adage goes that if you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, the frog will jump out going, Hey, that's hot, you idiot. And if you put a frog in a pot of regular water and slowly turn up the heat, the frog will boil to death because he's not smart enough to realize that things have changed until it's too late.

00:10:00:10 - 00:10:12:01
Wayne Turmel
And on remote teams and in hybrid teams to a degree as well. Very often the frog is thoroughly cooked before we know there's a problem.

00:10:12:03 - 00:10:16:08
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. We've talked about this on a previous episode about burnout, especially.

00:10:16:10 - 00:10:22:15
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, exactly right. You don't know that somebody has passed their limit until.

00:10:22:17 - 00:10:24:04
Marisa Eikenberry
They put in another two weeks.

00:10:24:06 - 00:10:27:13
Wayne Turmel
Or a third notice or whatever it is. Exactly right.

00:10:27:18 - 00:10:42:09
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. So do you have any examples of like how the Johari window can be used to improve communication? I mean, I know we just talked about like if you do improve your communication in general, this is going to make all of this better because you're going to know stuff. But like, is there something specifically that leaders can do?

00:10:42:12 - 00:11:05:14
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, I think that it's really about asking questions, right? If, you know, there are two things asking questions and being transparent, you have to ask questions because and Kevin is well known for saying this, and I have plagiarized him shamelessly, which is your boss has a lot of talents. Reading your mind is not one of them.

00:11:05:17 - 00:11:08:23
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. Yeah. We are not mind readers. I say that a lot.

00:11:09:04 - 00:11:18:05
Wayne Turmel
In my view, some of us are better than others. Some of us pick up vibes or or do. The others are completely oblivious and we're going about our business.

00:11:18:08 - 00:11:21:04
Marisa Eikenberry
And some of that takes years to develop to.

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:34:18
Wayne Turmel
It does. And it's partly having your improving your radar in general. There's the length of the relationship and the depth and the solidity of the relationship with that individual person. Mm hmm.

00:11:34:20 - 00:11:41:22
Marisa Eikenberry
And sometimes it's also. Do you like them? Because if you like them, you're more willing to work on that relationship. And if you don't. Well.

00:11:42:01 - 00:11:54:16
Wayne Turmel
Well, exactly right. And here, you know, when it goes to confirmation bias so-and-so did that because they're having a bad day versus so-and-so did that because of course they did. Because they are.

00:11:54:18 - 00:11:55:13
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:11:55:14 - 00:12:17:20
Wayne Turmel
So, you know, we need to get better at asking questions and you have to be very careful. Tone is critical when you're asking these questions. There is a fundamental difference between what were you thinking when you did that, What was going on right, versus what were you thinking?

00:12:17:22 - 00:12:21:14
Marisa Eikenberry
It's the goblet of. Harry, did you put your name on the Goblet of Fire?

00:12:21:16 - 00:12:46:23
Wayne Turmel
It's two separate. You know, there are two separate approaches to the exact same words. Right. You know, I because I tend to be grumpy and snarky. I try to avoid. What were you thinking? Even though that's. That's a perfectly legitimate question. I want to know what led you to that decision or to take that action.

00:12:47:04 - 00:12:47:14
Marisa Eikenberry
Right.

00:12:47:14 - 00:12:51:18
Wayne Turmel
And it's a legitimate question, but it's very easily misinterpreted.

00:12:51:18 - 00:12:56:01
Marisa Eikenberry
Yes. Way to say something like what was going on in your mind when this was happening?

00:12:56:03 - 00:12:58:20
Wayne Turmel
I don't even go there. I try to really what happened?

00:12:58:22 - 00:13:01:04
Marisa Eikenberry
Oh, that makes sense. You have done that with me now?

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:05:01
Wayne Turmel
Just one year. It's like what happened?

00:13:05:02 - 00:13:07:20
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. It's like I screwed up.

00:13:07:22 - 00:13:34:11
Wayne Turmel
Well, but here's the thing, right? If I say what happened, your response gives me way more information than the question itself. Actually warrants. Right. What you said. Oh, well, I screwed up. Okay. So she knows that she did something wrong. I don't have to come down on her like it, right? I have to figure out what happened. And how do we help her do that better?

00:13:34:13 - 00:13:35:15
Marisa Eikenberry
Mm hmm.

00:13:35:17 - 00:13:47:19
Wayne Turmel
Right. But if I say what happened and you start with the excuses, you know, it was all Marlene's fault, and you know how she is, and it made me mad. Okay, let's break that down.

00:13:47:23 - 00:13:53:22
Marisa Eikenberry
Right. So I'm going to change gears a little bit. But are there drawbacks to using this framework in a remote setting?

00:13:54:00 - 00:14:20:19
Wayne Turmel
I don't know that there are actual drawbacks to using it. I think that like so many things, we can use it to confirm what we already believe you when you're looking at any model. Right. The Johari window is a very simple example of that. You need to be really honest about what you know and what you don't know.

00:14:20:21 - 00:14:47:02
Wayne Turmel
Okay. Right. And, well, they should know that because I told them. Well, does she always carry a lot of weight? This gets to the transparency part of this, Right? Which is, yes, I need to know what they're thinking and I want as much information as I can glean so that I can treat this person appropriately. But are they trusting me?

00:14:47:02 - 00:15:08:22
Wayne Turmel
Have I made myself available? Have I given them enough information and evidence? You know, it goes to the trust model that we've talked about so much on this show. That's such an important part of our courseware that, you know, for trust to exist, you need to have proof of alignment and purpose, proof of competence and proof of motives.

00:15:08:22 - 00:15:23:23
Wayne Turmel
And if you're not providing those things and being transparent, it's really easy for people to not pick up on signals or not interpret your actions correctly.

00:15:24:01 - 00:15:38:00
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. So I know we're coming up on our time, but are there, you know, best practices or tips for leaders who might be listening to this going, okay, I need to use this model? How do I start?

00:15:38:02 - 00:15:58:02
Wayne Turmel
Yeah, The first thing is take a look at the model and, you know, just kind of get it in your, you know, bring it into your cortex so that you can recall it when needed or keeping, you know, keep a copy handy somewhere. Mm hmm. You know, a simple. Keep it on your computer so that you can call it.

00:15:58:06 - 00:16:00:11
Wayne Turmel
Call the graphic up when you need it.

00:16:00:12 - 00:16:02:11
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah. Tape it to your wall. Whatever you need to do.

00:16:02:12 - 00:16:29:09
Wayne Turmel
Whatever it takes. Right. Whatever you got to do. I think that once you've done that, take a an example. Take something that you're having trouble communicating with somebody on and fill in the blanks. That makes sense. What do I know? What do I know for a fact? Mm hmm. What do I think? I know, but I'm not entirely sure.

00:16:29:11 - 00:16:40:12
Wayne Turmel
All right. What haven't I told that person? And maybe what information in my missing. And then use that to guide the conversation.

00:16:40:14 - 00:16:41:05
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, that makes.

00:16:41:05 - 00:17:03:18
Wayne Turmel
A you know, we've. We hear so much about constructive inquiry and and all of those things, crucial conversations. It it's just a way to identify what do I need to share and what do I need to find out in order to understand and communicate with this person better.

00:17:03:20 - 00:17:10:05
Marisa Eikenberry
That makes sense, as always. Communication is the key to remote teams and remote work and so many things.

00:17:10:05 - 00:17:17:22
Wayne Turmel
And that's why we need things like models, right? Because we can say, Well, you need to communicate better. Okay, Wayne, I'll get right on that.

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:27:12
Marisa Eikenberry
Yeah, I was going to say I have a whole story about what I learned about the desk model and blew my ever loving mind. But that's for a different day. Well, maybe.

00:17:27:12 - 00:17:29:21
Wayne Turmel
We need to tell that story soon.

00:17:29:23 - 00:17:49:02
Marisa Eikenberry
I will add it to the list and listeners, I want to thank you so much for listening to long distance work life. Wayne, thank you for this conversation, too. I really hope that it was beneficial for our listeners for show notes, transcripts and other resources. Make sure to visit long distance work life. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes.

00:17:49:07 - 00:18:08:14
Marisa Eikenberry
And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes and let us know you listen to this episode or suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode. If you'd like to learn more about remote teams, order Wayne and Kevin Eikenberry's new book, The Long-Distance Team.

00:18:08:16 - 00:18:14:20
Marisa Eikenberry
You can learn more at longdistanceteambook.com. Thanks for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get too down.

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