Guests, Hybrid Work, Leadership, Working Remotely

Transformational Leadership Skills for Remote Teams with Alex Geesbreght

Wayne Turmel talks with Alex Geesbreght, co-founder of PRAX Leadership, about the changing landscape of leadership in the remote and hybrid work environment. Alex shares insights on the state of leadership today, the importance of authentic connections, and the skills leaders need to develop to succeed. They discuss emotional regulation, the significance of self-leadership, and how leaders can genuinely connect with their teams despite the physical distance.

Key Points

  • The current state of leadership and how it has changed over the past five years
  • The impact of remote and hybrid work on team connection and leadership
  • The difference between connectivity and true connection
  • Importance of authenticity and vulnerability in leadership
  • Practical tips for emotional regulation and self-awareness
  • The role of neuroscience in leadership development
  • The future of leadership and the importance of investing in individual growth

    • View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;02 - 00;00;42;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Long Distance Worklife. The podcast where we do our darndest to help you thrive and survive and make sense of the ever evolving world of work, particularly when it comes to remote and hybrid. I am Wayne Turmel. I'm your host. Marisa is not here this week. That's the bad news. The good news is we have another very, very interesting, insightful guest who is going to help us make sense of what is going on out there.

    00;00;42;27 - 00;00;53;27
    Wayne Turmel
    And in this particular case, our guest is Alex Geesbreght, who is with PRAX leadership. Alex, how the heck are you and who the heck are you?

    00;00;54;00 - 00;01;11;24
    Alex Geesbreght
    You. Well, I'm very good, as you can see, because behind me I'm by a beach right now. So you caught me at a very good time. So how I am is great. And who I am is, Alex Geesbreght. I’m co founder of PRAX Leadership and I was fortunate enough to to co-found that with my brother with whom I've worked for a very long time.

    00;01;11;24 - 00;01;15;16
    Alex Geesbreght
    And it's it's a pleasure and it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

    00;01;15;18 - 00;01;45;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Well as always, thank you for being had. the world obviously is we're in this state of flux, this remote work. There's hybrid work. Maybe we're working with our team. Maybe we're not. let's start with a really general question. What is the state of leadership there in the workplace today? What are you what are you hearing that's different than it might have been?

    00;01;45;03 - 00;01;46;28
    Wayne Turmel
    say five years ago?

    00;01;47;00 - 00;02;11;10
    Alex Geesbreght
    Yeah, I think generally, first of all, any time any company, devotes any time to their people in terms of leadership development, it's it's good news. You know, you mentioned something there very early on about sort of this hybrid and work away and together. I think that's what a little bit different now than it was five, ten years ago, is that pre-pandemic, the norm was that we were together.

    00;02;11;10 - 00;02;41;15
    Alex Geesbreght
    We had what we used to refer to as hallway conversations, where a lot of very important things happened that you couldn't measure as it became a necessity and then maybe morphed into a bit of a convenience, maybe even for economic reasons, where people started being further and further apart from each other. I think we lost some of our connection in if you look at just generally in the last five years, connectivity is it's sort of an all time high.

    00;02;41;15 - 00;02;48;20
    Alex Geesbreght
    I mean, the number of ways that I could reach you if I wanted to is almost limitless.

    00;02;48;23 - 00;02;50;21
    Wayne Turmel
    Oh, yeah. There is no hiding.

    00;02;50;24 - 00;03;10;01
    Alex Geesbreght
    Right? There's no hiding. But very few people take the time that you have to sit down with another human being and have an interaction with them. So I think that that's changing. I think maybe not for the better. It hasn't really benefited humanity, for the better, because of the lack of opportunities.

    00;03;10;03 - 00;03;16;16
    Wayne Turmel
    Do you think that's because the ease of communication has made it more transactional?

    00;03;16;18 - 00;03;41;02
    Alex Geesbreght
    Man, I, I think I, I've struggled with how to phrase that, and I may have to just steal that because I think that's exactly I think it is first real connection. if I may be digressing a little bit, but I just sort of look at, you know, we're friends in likes have sort of, you know, friendships on social media.

    00;03;41;05 - 00;04;01;01
    Alex Geesbreght
    They've sort of taken the place or satiated our need for actual friends. but but there's a big, huge difference between having an actual friend and somebody who says, your friend online. And I think a lot of times you can sort of low yourself into believing that you have made a connection when all you've had is connectivity.

    00;04;01;01 - 00;04;24;00
    Wayne Turmel
    So if that's the case, as a leader, where do you think leaders in general, and I know your mileage may vary and all human beings are different and all those other lovely disclaimers. But at the end of the day, when we're talking about in general, where do you think leaders are struggling most in terms of connection?

    00;04;24;06 - 00;04;50;17
    Alex Geesbreght
    I think being real, actually, a lot of the pressures that a lot of leaders have, come from sometimes the top, sometimes below them, and sometimes themselves, it's what we refer to as sort of soft skills that people have. But I think it's rooted to, to get to the root of your question, if you're asking me my opinion, I think it's people's comfortability with who they are.

    00;04;50;20 - 00;05;13;12
    Alex Geesbreght
    And, a little bit of trepidation around just being real with their people, in other words, showing vulnerability. I think if you're a parent, I think if you're a boss, there's this tendency to want to be the smartest person in the room all of the time. And I think that leaders do a disservice to those in their charge when they attempt, to portray that.

    00;05;13;12 - 00;05;25;26
    Alex Geesbreght
    Because we're not perfect, we have all kinds of foibles and, and shortcomings. And I think that that's where leaders, if they can become more secure and, with themselves, I think that they become instantly better leaders.

    00;05;25;29 - 00;05;49;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Is is that what you mean? I was, will be links to Alex in practice and all that good stuff on our show notes. dear listener, but I was on your site, and and you kind of divide between, you know, teaching general skills and self leadership. Is that part of that conversation?

    00;05;49;29 - 00;06;13;15
    Alex Geesbreght
    Yeah. One of the things my brother and I, you know, he spent 20 years in the healthcare industry and had a chance to work together. And our company now is, is really the culmination of not just a general personal and professional ethos, but experience, itself. And so what we we bifurcate our company into two things really technical skills.

    00;06;13;19 - 00;06;40;27
    Alex Geesbreght
    Skills base classes that we teach that implement the practice practices and way of of thought. And then the other one is focused on, transformational growth. So it truly is a soft skills based curriculum, in several different curricula where we focus on the self. And I would just say that, you know, I think a lot of times people are people say leadership and sometimes they mean self leadership, and sometimes they just mean being a leader.

    00;06;41;00 - 00;07;00;18
    Alex Geesbreght
    We sort of believe that everybody is a leader, not just because you lead yourself. And when you lead yourself, you have a tremendous capability of leading others. And so focusing on the individual is something that is very, very important to us. And we've seen the benefits there from in reality, as applied to actual companies.

    00;07;00;22 - 00;07;23;25
    Wayne Turmel
    When we're talking about the individual, which is really as we're talking about this show, it's individuals who are listening, right? People who care enough about their leadership and about their work to want to be better. where do you think the areas are that people need to specifically grow? I mean, it's one thing to say, be authentic and be true to yourself.

    00;07;23;25 - 00;07;30;07
    Wayne Turmel
    How the heck do you teach that? I mean, wow, you know, does that be more authentic? Oh, yeah. I'll get right on that.

    00;07;30;09 - 00;07;49;06
    Alex Geesbreght
    Boy. That's, It's really what sort of what? What comes before that. That's a great question, because first of all, I love that you're asking me because a lot of times people throw platitudes and trite phrases like I did. I meant something behind it. But thank you for giving me a chance to explain it. But being more real or being more authentic, you know, I have.

    00;07;49;06 - 00;08;14;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    I truly do believe that you can draw a direct line, almost logistically from being real. Okay, which I'll explain all the way to happiness, which if you sort of think, I don't know, maybe some of your viewers will agree with this, but it's kind of the goal, you know, whether you're whether you're in your life or your personal life or your professional life, which is really not that different.

    00;08;14;19 - 00;08;42;15
    Alex Geesbreght
    You're you're the same person. But that starts with being able to see yourself as flawed, which requires vulnerability to requires a certain level of security. It requires introspection. It requires sitting down in a quiet room some time and turning everything off and saying, actually who I am, who am I? And looking in a mirror figuratively. But in order to do that, you have to be okay with what that reflection will show you.

    00;08;42;17 - 00;09;15;10
    Alex Geesbreght
    And that's scary for a lot of people. But if you will take the time to introspect, to listen to feedback and then go identify the things that are lacking, perhaps in your life, whether they be personal growth skills or technical skills, and address those things. It's incredibly freeing. It can be scary for people, but once you understand what those are and you seek to improve them through people that know more than you, somebody knows more about anything than I do.

    00;09;15;15 - 00;09;44;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    I would go to them. You get feedback, any development requires practice and feedback. And you you seek that out and then you can actually make a positive change where there was once something that you considered to be lacking. So yeah, I mean, I say real and authentic, but it's not about pretending to be those things. It's about actually being those things with an eye toward an improvement that does lead to happiness.

    00;09;44;22 - 00;10;05;03
    Alex Geesbreght
    So I don't know if that makes sense. I see it logistically, and I see them interconnected. I really do see being comfortable or secure with oneself and one's happiness, whether they're at work or at play. as being, one in the same or at least a condition precedent to the other.

    00;10;05;05 - 00;10;11;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. It feels sometimes when you take leadership training, it's if you can fake sincerity, you got it made right.

    00;10;11;06 - 00;10;13;07
    Alex Geesbreght
    The famous quote. Right.

    00;10;13;10 - 00;10;28;11
    Wayne Turmel
    That's and that's the road that is there. But let me ask you this. Is there science behind this? I mean, is there, something beyond just kind of intuitively knowing that this would make us better?

    00;10;28;14 - 00;10;49;09
    Alex Geesbreght
    Well, there's a tremendous amount. And so one of the things that we focus on is neuroscience, which is kind of this fancy word of the overlap between cognition and our behavior. So our thoughts and our behavior and what we focus on to that end is the alignment of values. And our prioritization in our lives. So we all have these values.

    00;10;49;09 - 00;11;02;14
    Alex Geesbreght
    But if I were to ask you what your values are, maybe not you because you've probably given this more thought than the average person, but a lot of people would just sort of recite aspirational values or things that they believe. They believe.

    00;11;02;17 - 00;11;07;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay. So when you see aspirational values, for example. Yeah.

    00;11;07;02 - 00;11;31;03
    Alex Geesbreght
    I, I, I'm a family man, right? But I come home and I watch YouTube videos instead of playing with my kids. Right. You know, so my values, there's an argument to be said that I actually live my values because I live what is actually important to me and what I think about, but I tell you that I'm a family man, but I my behavior doesn't match that, if that makes sense.

    00;11;31;07 - 00;11;54;06
    Alex Geesbreght
    So the alignment of those two things, which again, requires a certain amount of let's introspect, let's find out what our values actually are, and then align that thinking with the behavior itself over time. Not on the Tuesday sort of rah rah session. That's inspirational, but in a hard sort of practice, scientifically, applied way.

    00;11;54;08 - 00;12;27;28
    Wayne Turmel
    I want to get back to this idea of the leaders kind of being self-aware, and especially when we're remote. We are so much in charge of ourselves. Right. Or or we are either in charge of ourselves or left to our own devices, depending on your confidence and competence level. Right? what are we where are these specific skills that leaders can actually build to be better at their jobs?

    00;12;27;28 - 00;12;37;28
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. Specifically, what if I said I need to learn something right now that we make better? What what kind of things are we talking about?

    00;12;38;04 - 00;13;13;01
    Alex Geesbreght
    I would say emotional regulation. So how you influence yourself. So we have an acronym we called Bits which is fully influencing the self. It's all over what it is we do with practice. But just as an example is just emotional regulation, as opposed to dysregulation. So when somebody, when there's a threat, when there's a conflict, when there is something that, frustrates us or throws us off our game and just using sort of just very commonly terms, how do we respond to that?

    00;13;13;01 - 00;13;47;11
    Alex Geesbreght
    Do we go further and further down and, compromise ourselves and others, or are we able to step back a sense, assess who we are, how we're reacting to it and see it more objectively, and then apply the best next case as opposed to reacting in an emotional way. So self-regulation self, emotional regulation is an incredibly important thing for a leader because think about all the damage that everybody's had a boss that, that, that let's call it, flies off the handle or reacts, emotionally.

    00;13;47;11 - 00;14;11;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    And by the way, I am not, I don't use the word emotion and business pejoratively like a lot of people do. I think emotion is a tremendously valuable thing. I think directing that emotion, is incredibly important, and having it be reactionary or emotive is, incredibly damaging.

    00;14;11;22 - 00;14;42;25
    Wayne Turmel
    As you're talking, my brain is doing what it normally does, which is create about five scenarios at once. So let me just ask you about this. It seems intuitively that this might be harder to do at a distance than it is if we're together. If we're together, I'm getting a lot more feet on how to respond. I'm aware of my body language and things because you're right, there is.

    00;14;42;28 - 00;14;51;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Does being remote make it harder to do that? And how do you then, if it is, how do you overcome that?

    00;14;51;02 - 00;15;09;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    First of all, I think it absolutely is. I mean, look for today on as you know, when you look at what has replaced the meeting, it's the zoom meeting, right. And so I really only have to be concerned with what I'm wearing from about here up. and, and I, you know, I don't I could I do in fact have shorts on.

    00;15;09;19 - 00;15;35;11
    Alex Geesbreght
    I don't have to even have shoes on. So there's a certain, lack of thought and forethought that goes into to, being remote. And I love the word you introduced very early on into this, which is it's transactional. And there are so many cues that we don't get when we are not in person. that I do think it's it's clearly damaging.

    00;15;35;11 - 00;16;06;25
    Alex Geesbreght
    I mean, look, I would have much rather sat down with you across from across a table, and I actually, this is better than a phone call. but I can't imagine. And this is just for me. I can't imagine conducting business with leaders. Like, we just have an executive team of 14. We in our former business, we had 4000 employees and we had 200 corporate employees that I interacted with at least once a week, and that those 45 minutes waiting were very, very important to me because I didn't I couldn't spend time with 200 people.

    00;16;06;28 - 00;16;31;04
    Alex Geesbreght
    I could spend a little bit more time with those 14 executives. But if I hadn't sat down and looked at the faces of those 200 people once a week and given them a chance to express what their interpretation of the words that I say, were, I said work, I would have lost them, and I needed to feel not just connectivity with them, but connection with them.

    00;16;31;07 - 00;16;49;18
    Alex Geesbreght
    And as an aside, and one of the things that I would do is I would spend time telling them they would see me fly all over the country. but I would spend time telling them where I screwed up and why we didn't get a contract that they can't, that they don't have to work on because of something I did or something somebody else did.

    00;16;49;18 - 00;16;52;00
    Alex Geesbreght
    But we talked about that openly in person.

    00;16;52;02 - 00;17;14;04
    Wayne Turmel
    This idea of taking it, and it's not just emotional intelligence. It goes beyond just basic the conversation about emotional intelligence, clearly. where's it going? What where do you see these conversations and this kind of thinking what's what's kind of next and where is it headed?

    00;17;14;05 - 00;17;17;00
    Alex Geesbreght
    Well, can I just tell you my dream of where it's headed?

    00;17;17;03 - 00;17;19;14
    Wayne Turmel
    Tell me anything you want, man. I up, all right.

    00;17;19;14 - 00;17;47;29
    Alex Geesbreght
    Okay, so I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if technology Wayne will drive us further from each other or if we will somehow harness it to become actually closer. But I will tell you what I want from companies, in families and teams is I want there to be sort of a global realization that none of those constructs exist.

    00;17;48;01 - 00;18;30;21
    Alex Geesbreght
    they don't exist without people, without an individual. And I think that this world will be better off. Certainly companies, certainly families. And on a team level, when people and companies understand that you don't improve groups, you don't improve teams, you improve individuals. And so our clients, the ones that we want, which is represents what I think is euphoric in terms of how a company would, go about improving their workforce and creating a happier workforce is for them to sort of step back and instead of just the lip service of our people are the most important thing in our company, and this is who we are, where people can be.

    00;18;30;24 - 00;19;03;26
    Alex Geesbreght
    That's great. But what does that mean? And instead of approaching it with the bottom right of the PNL in mind and KPIs and metrics, I wish that they would start to look at the improvement of their people a little bit more altruistically, which is tough to ask a company to do that, but to approach it as if what they've been saying forever was actually true, meaning that their people are actually the most important and invest in them and, invest in them for the sake of them.

    00;19;03;28 - 00;19;21;23
    Alex Geesbreght
    It's okay if they want to do the math and say, look, if Bob gets better and three two gets better and Sue gets better, we're all probably going to be better. And that's okay. But just for a minute, stop with the metrics, stop with the KPIs and ask yourself, when I leave a movie, how do I know if I like that movie?

    00;19;21;25 - 00;19;41;29
    Alex Geesbreght
    Do I write down, oh, I laughed three times. I didn't go to the bathroom. I, you know, I barely ate my popcorn. Yes, I like the movie. No, you just know. And one other thing I would say is that if anybody ever has an opportunity or a need to go seek the advice of somebody else, maybe even professionally, they go to a counselor.

    00;19;42;01 - 00;20;03;19
    Alex Geesbreght
    How often does a counselor sit down and say, okay, let's develop some metrics and KPIs around your, your wellness and, and how you're going to improve. Of course they don't. They connect with the person, they sit there, they do what you're doing, they ask questions. They listen. By the way, just to answer your other question, that is another thing that leaders could do better.

    00;20;03;21 - 00;20;23;26
    Alex Geesbreght
    listening and empathy and and you maybe have to fake that until you make it. But, there are several examples, but I'm digressing. But I would just say, my dream is that companies would actually do what they say is important to them, and that is invest in their people for their people, not for the company.

    00;20;23;26 - 00;20;26;13
    Wayne Turmel
    Madness. I tell you, that's crazy. Talk.

    00;20;26;20 - 00;20;30;05
    Alex Geesbreght
    It is why I said it was a dream.

    00;20;30;08 - 00;20;57;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Alex, thank you so much. This is great. Been a great conversation. Alas, our time is up. thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it. Of course, you can learn more about Alex, about Praxis, all that good stuff, by visiting the longdistanceworklife.com. You will find a transcript of this show. You can find past episodes.

    00;20;57;07 - 00;21;22;14
    Wayne Turmel
    You can leave us comments, show ideas, questions, vicious attacks, anything that you want to tell us, you can reach out to either myself or Marisa on LinkedIn or through email. And we want to remind you that a lot of you came to us because of our book, The Long-Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership, that that sucker came out in 2018.

    00;21;22;15 - 00;21;58;29
    Wayne Turmel
    September 17th of this year. We are in the second edition and updated new information. edition of The Long-Distance Leader Rules for Remarkable Remote Leadership. The second edition goes on sale September 17th, and we hope that you will check that out. in the meantime, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, if you want to be a better leader in a remote environment, if you want to work on some of the things that Alex told us about, check out our long leadership series.

    00;21;58;29 - 00;22;27;24
    Wayne Turmel
    We offer it three four times a year as a public enrollment program. You can find anything you need in terms of information, pricing, all that good stuff at KevinEikenberry.com. And of course, if you enjoyed the show, tell a friend like and subscribe. I refuse to say smash the like button because I am not 12. but but, you know, you could push a gem again.

    00;22;27;24 - 00;22;45;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Let us know that you want to like and subscribe to the show. So that is it. Ladies and gentlemen, for another edition of The Long Distance Work Life. Next week, we will be back with Marisa. I am Wayne Turmel. Thank you for being with us. Don't let the weasels get you down.

    Featured Guest

    Name: Alex Geesbreght

    Bio: Alex Geesbreght is the Founder and Partner of PRAX Leadership, LLC and Geesbreght Group LLC. Previously, he was the Owner of Emergency Medicine Consultants, where he served as General Counsel, President, and Chief Strategy Officer for over sixteen years until its sale in 2018. He also owned and led PhysAssist Scribes, the nation’s first medical scribe company.

    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    00:43 Meet Alex Geesbreght
    01:45 The State of Leadership Today
    02:50 Impact of Remote Work on Connection
    04:24 The Importance of Authenticity
    07:23 Teaching Authenticity in Leadership
    10:28 The Role of Neuroscience
    12:27 Key Skills for Remote Leaders
    14:51 Challenges of Remote Leadership
    17:14 The Future of Leadership

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    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

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    Leading Through Conflict: Communicating Unpopular Policies
    Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Leadership

    Leading Through Conflict: Communicating Unpopular Policies

    Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel dive into the complexities of leadership when confronted with disagreeable or unpopular policies. Learn effective strategies for communicating these policies to your remote or hybrid team, ensuring clarity, empathy, and maintaining morale. Wayne shares his extensive experience on how to handle the challenges of remote leadership, from understanding the reasons behind decisions to managing team pushback. Whether you're a seasoned manager or new to leadership, this episode offers valuable insights for navigating conflict and leading with confidence, no matter where your team is located.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Communication is a two-way process; it's crucial to listen as well as deliver the message.
    2. Use rich communication mediums, like video calls, for delivering significant news.
    3. Be transparent about what you know and don’t know, and ensure ongoing dialogue.
    4. Schedule follow-ups and one-on-ones to address individual concerns and questions.
    5. Understand the technical, organizational, and personal implications of policy changes.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;07;28 - 00;00;19;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Welcome back to long distance worklife where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

    00;00;19;07 - 00;00;21;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, Marisa. How the heck are you?

    00;00;21;06 - 00;00;22;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I'm great. How are you?

    00;00;22;26 - 00;00;25;13
    Wayne Turmel
    I am, I am well today.

    00;00;25;16 - 00;00;36;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Good deal. Because today, we're going to be talking about leadership and conflict and how we can handle disagreeable policies or unpopular policies.

    00;00;36;22 - 00;00;46;17
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, it's part of being the manager, right? Nobody is when everything's going great. Being the boss is fabulous. when.

    00;00;46;17 - 00;00;47;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Trade.

    00;00;47;10 - 00;01;12;14
    Wayne Turmel
    Policies come down and you, as the manager, are expected to inform the team about them, and even worse, enforce them, it can be super, super unpleasant. And when you are not in the same place as the people that you're working with, it can be unpleasant and stressful. So more stressful to be specific.

    00;01;12;21 - 00;01;34;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. So given you know that we have remote and hybrid teams now. And so it's way different than, you know, walking into the office in the conference room and being like, hey guys, like here's this decision that's been made from on high. So what are some effective communication strategies that managers can use with their remote and hybrid teams when explaining some unpopular policies to their team?

    00;01;34;03 - 00;01;47;18
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, let's take a step back when everybody's in the office, right. There's like this immediate conversation and kerfuffle. And then there's cubicle conversations. And, you know.

    00;01;47;20 - 00;01;48;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Slack messages and.

    00;01;48;25 - 00;02;17;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Whining and people going out for beverages later. And, you know, like that when you are not physically co-located with your coworkers and with your team. That same stuff happens, but you don't know what's going on. You aren't privy to the chat conversations and the texts and the whining and complaining. There is so much, as always, with long distance leadership.

    00;02;17;25 - 00;02;44;11
    Wayne Turmel
    There is so much white space that you don't really know what's going on. And so the number one communication thing is to do it. and communication is in fact a two way process. It's delivering the message, but it's also listening. And it's listening to what people say and what they don't say.

    00;02;44;13 - 00;02;44;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;02;44;24 - 00;02;49;28
    Wayne Turmel
    If you are met with dead silence, there's stuff you need to learn.

    00;02;50;01 - 00;03;07;12
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and you mentioning dead silence, I mean, that also is a good point to like how we're delivering this message. We've talked about mediums of communication before, but it sounds like, you know, if you're going to deliver something that might be unpopular, probably needs to be on a video call. Yes.

    00;03;07;15 - 00;03;21;06
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, certainly you want it to be as rich as circumstances demanded. a video call is a great way to break the news if it's possible to do it that way.

    00;03;21;08 - 00;03;22;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;03;22;23 - 00;03;35;10
    Wayne Turmel
    and you need something they can refer back to a written document that it says this is what is and isn't covered.

    00;03;35;13 - 00;03;36;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Okay.

    00;03;36;27 - 00;04;03;12
    Wayne Turmel
    because when you make an announcement, particularly one that is unpopular or has emotional tripwires attached to it, there's no guarantee they're going to get it the first time to really understand what's going on. So the communication strategy as such, there are a few steps that you have to take. The first is you better make sure you understand the change.

    00;04;03;14 - 00;04;03;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;04;03;28 - 00;04;41;18
    Wayne Turmel
    And that's not just whether or not you agree with it. You may or may not, but you darn well better understand it. And there are several levels to this. You need to understand technically what is changing or not, what is going to be the difference. You need to understand as best you can. Why is this happening right? The moment I became a real grown up adult worker was the day I realized that every decision, no matter how idiot shtick, was made for a reason.

    00;04;41;20 - 00;04;43;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;04;43;12 - 00;05;18;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Somebody had a reason for doing what they did. Now, whether this is the right response. There's all that. But if you understand what the reason is, the it tempers some of the, the pain. So you need to understand what is actually changing. You need to understand why it's happening. And you need to understand the repercussions. If we know if you're making notes to yourself for how to break this news, it starts with when this happens, this will be the result.

    00;05;18;26 - 00;05;20;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;05;20;20 - 00;05;38;11
    Wayne Turmel
    Good, bad or indifferent. And there's what's the result on an organizational level. There's what's the result on a personal level. And the challenge for leaders is that the information comes down always with the priority on the organizational level.

    00;05;38;13 - 00;05;39;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Of course.

    00;05;39;10 - 00;06;00;29
    Wayne Turmel
    This is what it means to the organization when you break it to your people. That's the secondary consideration. They want to know what does it mean for me? And you'd best have as good an answer as you can have. Now that all makes sense. The problem is we don't always have all the information.

    00;06;01;01 - 00;06;01;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;06;02;02 - 00;06;14;04
    Wayne Turmel
    And one of the mistakes that leaders make is if they don't have certain information they either withhold it completely.

    00;06;14;07 - 00;06;15;13
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;06;15;16 - 00;06;35;08
    Wayne Turmel
    Or they act as if they have the information. And this is going to happen. And what happens as policies get implemented is things don't always happen the way that we think they're going to. And then if it doesn't match what you've told your people they say you lied to us, you weasel.

    00;06;35;11 - 00;06;37;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. Well, and.

    00;06;37;01 - 00;06;55;04
    Wayne Turmel
    You may not have intentionally you may have tried to spare their feelings. You may have tried not to make a situation worse by saying this could also happen, but you also are perceived as not having told them the truth.

    00;06;55;06 - 00;06;56;21
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;06;56;24 - 00;07;03;05
    Wayne Turmel
    And you did it for all the right reasons and you did it to be a good person. And it's still going to blow up in your face.

    00;07;03;07 - 00;07;06;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I think this is part of course for being a leader to be honest.

    00;07;06;08 - 00;07;39;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Well but that's you know, how often have we said on this show time after time, leadership first, location second, like, yes, this is breaking bad news. Leadership 101 and when people aren't there, they can't look at each other and go, what the hell? They can write the text messages and the chats are going crazy and there's all kinds of stuff going on, and you can't physically see everybody's eyes, right?

    00;07;39;05 - 00;07;51;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. If you call everybody into the bullpen, into the cube farm and you make an announcement, you can see so-and-so looks stunned, so-and-so is ticked off. So-and-so just looks confused.

    00;07;51;27 - 00;07;52;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;07;52;22 - 00;08;07;18
    Wayne Turmel
    And you can respond accordingly. You don't have that benefit unless it's a very small team and you're on camera, and even then, you're so busy delivering the message that you may not see everything that's going on.

    00;08;07;20 - 00;08;19;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, that's what I was getting ready to say, too. I mean, even if you do have a small team, maybe everybody's on camera. Okay, I might look fine here, but you don't know. My foot shaking under my desk. You know. Right?

    00;08;19;03 - 00;08;46;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. Absolutely. Which means that delivering the message is only part of it. I mean, one of the things that we've taught at the cabin, I can very group for a billion years, and they've been teaching in the world for much longer than we have walked the earth is communication is missed. Message send, message received, message understood, and action taken.

    00;08;46;22 - 00;08;47;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;08;47;23 - 00;08;56;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. A commute, a successful communication sends the message. And whatever you want to have happen, happens, right?

    00;08;56;06 - 00;08;57;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;08;57;12 - 00;09;13;04
    Wayne Turmel
    The problem when you are instituting a an emotional or a complex message, is that message send is the only thing you know is going to happen.

    00;09;13;06 - 00;09;15;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely.

    00;09;15;09 - 00;09;27;01
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. You can say I sent the message. I held that call. I did that announcement. I sent that email. Yep. You sure did. And it's only a quarter of the process.

    00;09;27;03 - 00;09;32;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. The email went to spam. They didn't watch the video. They didn't attend the call anyway.

    00;09;33;05 - 00;09;43;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Exactly right. I mean, there's a lot of stuff, so sending the message is only part of it. The second thing is, did they actually hear it?

    00;09;43;12 - 00;09;44;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;09;44;27 - 00;10;05;29
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, you know, the richer the form of communication, the more likely that they are going to physically it is going to physically hit their ears. Yeah. Right. But we all know the minute you hear something that you don't want to hear, you cease being able to hear it.

    00;10;06;01 - 00;10;06;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes.

    00;10;07;00 - 00;10;22;18
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. Hey we're doing a reorg. If you're so busy thinking that's it I'm getting fired. I'm getting laid off. This is the end of life as we know it. I am literally not hearing what you're telling me, let alone understanding.

    00;10;22;26 - 00;10;28;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. And they might be saying your departments fine. And you don't have no idea it.

    00;10;28;10 - 00;11;05;02
    Wayne Turmel
    So you have to make sure they they received the message clearly do the best you can to make sure they understand it. And some of that is eliminating the walls that are immediately going to shoot up. If you merely focus on the organizational part of this, they are going to be so busy trying to figure out what it means to them that now, one way to do that, particularly live, is to say, what I am about to tell you is what we know right now.

    00;11;05;04 - 00;11;33;14
    Wayne Turmel
    There's a lot that we don't know. There's a lot that might change. So I'm giving you the best information I can at this time. I would ask you to listen to it and I will answer your questions as best I can. Yeah. Because you want to eliminate the barriers so people can at least take the information in, then you better make darn sure that people understand it.

    00;11;33;17 - 00;12;02;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Some of that can happen in the moment, right? It's an all hands meeting. There are questions that most people will not ask their questions out loud. Most people do not even know what their questions are until they hang up and later. So on a remote or a hybrid team, make sure that there is plenty of opportunity for that instantaneous feedback and connection.

    00;12;02;06 - 00;12;31;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Ideally, if your team is small enough, you would schedule one on ones immediately. You want to do check ins. How you doing? What did you hear? What are your questions and be able to address those as best you can on an individual basis. particularly for those who aren't don't have easy access to you. Right. And again, you want to be empathetic.

    00;12;31;06 - 00;12;38;25
    Wayne Turmel
    I know this is hard. That's not the same as sympathetic. I know I think it sucks to is not help.

    00;12;38;28 - 00;12;51;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well. So pivoting a little bit like should managers even be transparent with their own reservations on stuff like if, if, if I'm a leader and I hate this idea, should I tell them.

    00;12;51;25 - 00;13;01;15
    Wayne Turmel
    I think it is appropriate to say I have questions myself about this?

    00;13;01;18 - 00;13;03;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;13;03;20 - 00;13;23;07
    Wayne Turmel
    When I first heard it, I had some concerns. I hope that I get the answers that I need, and I hope that I pass those that you know, and I will let you know when I have those answers. It is not it. It is helpful to empathize. It is not helpful to throw the company under the bus.

    00;13;23;10 - 00;13;25;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;13;25;04 - 00;13;46;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Because at the end of the day, on a purely mercenary, selfish level, you as the leader are going to be at least partially responsible for the enforcement and coaching and training and helping people make this change if they know that you're against it.

    00;13;46;17 - 00;13;47;08
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;13;47;11 - 00;13;53;04
    Wayne Turmel
    First of all, are your efforts really going to be good faith efforts to make it happen?

    00;13;53;06 - 00;13;54;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;13;54;12 - 00;14;18;21
    Wayne Turmel
    And secondly they know you think it's nonsense so why should they bother. It is going to be three times harder to implement the change than it would it be if people were merely unhappy. So and this goes back to understanding the change, right. Why is it happening? I understand why the company is doing what it's doing. I don't have to like it.

    00;14;18;21 - 00;14;46;14
    Wayne Turmel
    I don't have to agree with it. But I better be able to say when somebody says, why are they doing this? And there's a difference between the stock is tanking and they need to shore up the numbers. And and you know, the stock is tanking. And so they're throwing us overboard. Those are two very different right ways of explaining what's going on.

    00;14;46;16 - 00;14;50;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And one of them is okay. And the other one is definitely not.

    00;14;50;22 - 00;15;07;29
    Wayne Turmel
    And it's perfectly natural I mean, you want transparency is important in that it creates trust. Right. Hey I don't know exactly what's going to happen either. We will figure it out together.

    00;15;08;01 - 00;15;33;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. So hypothetically speaking like you know if, if managers have a bunch of pushback from their teams about a decision, you know, and it's something maybe they personally disagree with how they've decided to share that with their team. Hopefully they take some of our advice from this episode. But how do managers handle that pushback? Because, you know, they still need to support what the decision was.

    00;15;33;16 - 00;16;02;14
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, when the pushback happens, there's a couple of things. First of all, it needs to be heard. And people need to know that it is being heard. And of course, in a remote environment that might be written. So you obviously want to have one on ones with people. But maybe there is a special slack or teams chat, for questions about things.

    00;16;02;16 - 00;16;29;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. You want to take that information because some of the information you're going to be able to answer and you're going to be able to diffuse the drama. Pretty much right away. There is also there are going to be questions, especially if you don't have the answer, that it is your job as a manager to go up the hill and get the answers that you can get, even if the answer is when are the layoffs going to start?

    00;16;29;03 - 00;16;30;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    It's still important to know that answer.

    00;16;30;16 - 00;16;31;25
    Wayne Turmel
    They got to know that.

    00;16;31;27 - 00;16;47;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. And we've talked about this on the show before too. But I want to reiterate because you've you've kind of touched on this already, but this idea of if you get asked a question and you don't know, it's okay to say, I don't know, but I'm going to go find out, do not.

    00;16;47;25 - 00;16;50;15
    Wayne Turmel
    This is where you get accused of lying.

    00;16;50;18 - 00;16;50;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;16;50;27 - 00;17;09;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Because if you try to gloss over the question or you kind of think this is the right answer. And so you give it because you want to sound like you know what you're doing. You don't want to sound like an idiot. It's going to blow back on you if that answer turns out not to be true.

    00;17;09;28 - 00;17;16;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. And we as a society just need to get better about saying, I don't know, but I'm going to go find out.

    00;17;16;11 - 00;17;45;13
    Wayne Turmel
    We as human beings, just in general. Right? Again, most of what we've talked about is conveying bad news or handling conflict 101, regardless of where you are. I think as we near the end of our time in a remote or a hybrid environment, there are a couple of very specific differences. Number one is you want to make sure that the whole team gets as much information as they can.

    00;17;45;16 - 00;18;05;16
    Wayne Turmel
    As a team, it's very tempting, for example, to call the people in the office together, make the announcement, and then have a call for the people who aren't. It's a very natural, kind of instinctive thing to do. But the team needs to hear it as a team.

    00;18;05;22 - 00;18;07;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;18;07;28 - 00;18;30;25
    Wayne Turmel
    so that's one thing, is don't fall into that trap. It should be delivered as richly as possible, and it needs a backup. It needs to have a place that people can go back and now read it for themselves. Right when the drama has settled, or they're a little calmer and they can read it and take a look, because then they may get some of their questions answered.

    00;18;30;25 - 00;18;32;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Other questions may arise.

    00;18;32;14 - 00;18;32;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;18;32;26 - 00;18;40;10
    Wayne Turmel
    And there needs to be an ongoing conversation. It's not like you can just say, well, I told them and that's it.

    00;18;40;12 - 00;18;41;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;18;41;11 - 00;19;10;22
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. It's going to be an ongoing conversation. And then you need to figure out what. Training are people going to need. What are they going to need to know. Some of it contextual, some of it, you know, added hey, here's what's going to happen. And there may be things they need to do differently. What are those things. And get that training in place as quickly as possible.

    00;19;10;24 - 00;19;16;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely. Wayne, sounds like we kind of talked about this for a lot longer than now, but unfortunately we are out of time.

    00;19;17;00 - 00;19;39;20
    Wayne Turmel
    But someday when you are a manager, young lady, you will learn, it's this is the bane. There are two things implementing policies that you yourself might not agree with and having to let people go. These are the hardest things that a manager has to do.

    00;19;39;23 - 00;20;05;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    We want to talk about that second one on another episode sometime. Absolutely. That that might be really important. And listeners, if you're listening right now and you're like, yeah, I want to hear that. Please let us know. so that way we know that that needs to go higher up on our list. But listeners, thank you so much for listening to The Long-Distance Worklife. For shownotes, transcripts, and other resources, make sure to visit LongDistanceWorklife.com.

    00;20;05;06 - 00;20;27;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes. And if you're on Apple or Spotify, please give us a rating and review. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners like you. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know you listen to this episode, or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

    00;20;27;10 - 00;20;50;16
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Like we already mentioned, we would love to hear from you. And before we go, I want to let you know that the second edition of The Long-Distance Leader is now available for preorder. For those of you watching, Wayne has a copy of it right here and it will be launching on September 17th. This updated guide is perfect for navigating today's remote and hybrid work environments with new principles and proven strategies.

    00;20;50;17 - 00;21;14;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel show you how to lead effectively no matter where your team is located. Don't miss out on the latest insights and exercises designed to boost productivity and morale. Preorder your copy now at longdistanceworklife.com/LDL and strengthen your remote leadership skills today. Thank you so much for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the weasels get you down.

    00;21;14;17 - 00;21;28;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Hey.

    00;21;28;27 - 00;21;29;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You.


    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction: Welcome and Episode Overview
    00:36 The Role of Leadership in Conflict Management
    01:34 Effective Communication Strategies for Remote Teams
    02:44 The Importance of Listening and Understanding Team Reactions
    05:03 Steps to Ensure Clear Communication of Policies
    07:39 Challenges of Delivering Bad News Remotely
    11:04 Transparency and Trust: Handling Managerial Reservations
    15:32 Managing Pushback and Ongoing Conversations
    17:45 Team Training and Support for Policy Changes
    20:05 Conclusion and Call to Action: Preorder The Long-Distance Leader

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Pre-Order The Long-Distance Leader

    Perfect your remote leadership skills with the updated edition of "The Long-Distance Leader" by Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, featuring new principles and proven strategies for today's hybrid work environments.

     Pre-Order
    The Long-Distance Leader
    Read More
    Navigating Talent Stagnation with Khaled Hussein of Betterleap
    Guests, Leadership, Surviving Remote Work

    Navigating Talent Stagnation with Khaled Hussein of Betterleap

    Wayne Turmel dives into the intricacies of the current employment market with Khaled Hussein, a remote work expert and a key player at Betterleap. As the world continues to navigate through phases like the Great Resignation and the Great Compromise, Khaled sheds light on the concept of talent stagnation and the evolving expectations of both employers and employees in a remote and hybrid work environment. Tune in to hear valuable insights on recruiting strategies, the pressure on CEOs to adapt, and the future of remote work.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Understand Talent Stagnation: Recognize the mismatch between skilled workers and employer expectations in the current market.

    2. Embrace Remote Work Benefits: Expand your talent pool by considering remote work options and accessing a wider range of candidates.

    3. Decide on Work Models: Choose between fully remote, in-office, or hybrid models based on your company's goals rather than defaulting to a compromise.

    4. Be Transparent with Candidates: Clearly communicate your company's remote or hybrid policies to potential hires to ensure mutual understanding and alignment.

    5. Support CEO Decision-Making: Encourage leaders to make strategic decisions based on company culture and goals, despite external pressures.

    6. Enhance Recruitment Strategies: Focus on recruiting strategies that align with your chosen work model and organizational objectives.

    7. Promote Clear Communication: Foster open communication and feedback within your team to maintain a strong and cohesive remote or hybrid work environment.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;07;28 - 00;00;34;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Long Distance Worklife where we help you thrive. Survive, generally, keep the weasels at bay in the crazy world of remote and hybrid work. I am Wayne Turmel your humble servant. My, normal co-host. Marissa is not here this week, which means it's an interview episode, which is always so much fun.

    00;00;34;05 - 00;01;03;23
    Wayne Turmel
    Today we are going to talk about, employment, talent stagnation and how people think about remote work and searching for talent with the very, very talented Khaled Hussein from Betterleap. So far, I've remembered the name and I've remembered the company. We're off to a great start. And talent. Who who has just moved to my city of Las Vegas.

    00;01;03;23 - 00;01;04;28
    Wayne Turmel
    So welcome.

    00;01;05;01 - 00;01;14;24
    Khaled Hussein
    Yes. Thank you so much for having me. And I was like, all right, you nailed the name. And then the company and everything that's like, great, I'm in. Great to be here.

    00;01;14;27 - 00;01;40;24
    Wayne Turmel
    At this hour of the morning. That is no small feat. So when you're talking about talent stagnant, we've been through the great Resignation and we went through the Great Compromise and we've been through a thousand little jargon d'azur waves over the last few years. When you talk about the great stagnation, what are you talking about?

    00;01;40;24 - 00;02;08;13
    Khaled Hussein
    Yeah, I'm really glad you you know, it's kind of setting the stage of what that is. And I think, you know, we're very, we're we're really good at coming up with terms that describe what, you know, what the current employment market is kind of going through right now. We are entering a very interesting stage where, you know, the talent stagnation is it's really, the way I define it is it's a mismatch between the skilled workers and the employers.

    00;02;08;15 - 00;02;29;25
    Khaled Hussein
    expectation and employers demand, growth, demand and so on one hand, you find that, you know, employers that we have the phase of, it was it was really a talent market. And you get to choose who you want to work with. And employers are willing to overpay for the talent and really consider the need for remote and work life balance and all that.

    00;02;29;25 - 00;02;50;20
    Khaled Hussein
    And I think we're going to move to, you know, the other end of the the spectrum right now in different sectors. By the way, this is a very nuanced, you know, element work is is a very nuanced, industry. And so it really, it depends on what sectors. But we kind of move to the other end of the spectrum where we it's pretty much an employer market right now.

    00;02;50;20 - 00;03;23;08
    Khaled Hussein
    And you have talent that is, you know, looking for employment. And a lot of employers are trying to reduce their talent, force their genre, find more efficient ways to, supplement their, their needs and work needs and so forth. And, and, increase their overall productivity or reduce their cost. and, and the talent is kind of starting to look for hey, this was a really good phase where we found, you know, companies that were accommodating and and so forth.

    00;03;23;08 - 00;03;27;08
    Khaled Hussein
    And I think now it's a bit more challenging for, for the talent to find that.

    00;03;27;08 - 00;04;00;24
    Wayne Turmel
    I think it is. And I think that some of this, especially around remote and hybrid work, is that working remotely or the flexibility to work hybrid has been about the only perk available. You know, the money is what it is. you know, and so when when companies think about, well, we're going to be hybrid or we're going to be remote for it's not so much a strategy as a hostage negotiation, right?

    00;04;00;27 - 00;04;15;14
    Wayne Turmel
    How much can we make them come into the office before they quit. And the workers are saying, how much can I not go into the office before they fire me? And that's not terribly strategic or good thinking.

    00;04;15;16 - 00;04;16;05
    Khaled Hussein
    Yeah.

    00;04;16;05 - 00;04;37;09
    Wayne Turmel
    So what I like to do is start at the top with the CEOs and is their their thinking about their their work strategy. And they're thinking about how are we going to be remote or we get it. You know, a lot of times, well, we want the best talent. And what they really mean is we want the best talent that lives within 20 miles of where we are.

    00;04;37;13 - 00;04;51;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. so what are the CEOs? Those the kind of C-suite. What are they thinking? And what are the the things that are keeping them up night when it comes to recruiting talent?

    00;04;51;21 - 00;05;16;10
    Khaled Hussein
    You know what? When I, I have an answer that I'll share with you. But there is also another thing that I don't think I ever share, that I'm just kind of feeling this right now, so. Oh, cool. I yeah, I literally don't think I ever said that on any other, kind of media, but one thing CEOs think a lot about right now, and I think when we talk about CEOs, you know, there is, you know, fortune 500 CEOs, but there is also the, you know, that that everybody else.

    00;05;16;10 - 00;05;37;25
    Khaled Hussein
    And so, I do think, you know, so this answer is a little bit nuanced, but I do think it applies to both to a degree. I think a big part, big kind of point that CEOs think a lot about is am I doing what everybody else also is doing? So if you get the top ten CEOs, they're starting to bring people back to the office.

    00;05;37;25 - 00;05;56;26
    Khaled Hussein
    And there is some pressure from shareholders and investors to say, hey, it looks like, you know, the CEO of this massive conglomerate is bringing people back to the office. And he's citing all these stacks of, you know, things that are going to be better if you bring people back to the office. Then as a CEO, you kind of feel a little bit of a pressure to follow suit.

    00;05;56;29 - 00;05;59;13
    Wayne Turmel
    And I imagine that's completely true.

    00;05;59;16 - 00;06;23;28
    Khaled Hussein
    And I yeah, there is there is definitely that. And I think even if a lot of CEOs are not, you know, going out there publicly saying that, that they're feeling that pressure, there is definitely an internal pressure that they're, they're, facing. And you see this and the way I know that is, I am I'm very fortunate to have been an investor in many different startups and many different work with many different CEOs, mentor for a lot.

    00;06;23;28 - 00;06;40;19
    Khaled Hussein
    And we have these discussions. We have the discussion of like, I really like my set up being either in office or being for remote or whatever, but then all of my investors are telling me their whole portfolio is going to the other way, and I feel like maybe I should. What do you think? And so there is an element of that.

    00;06;40;19 - 00;06;57;25
    Khaled Hussein
    Is there is that external pressure on CEOs to follow what kind of the new thing is? There was a phase where the new thing is everything is remote and hey, remote is great and you save costs and office space and all that and every CEO all of a sudden move the company to being remote. And then there is the wave is kind of going back to return to office.

    00;06;57;25 - 00;07;19;28
    Khaled Hussein
    And then there is a lot of CEOs coming back too. So there is an element of really just what's happening out there. you don't want to stand out too much. but the other thing is the funny and the irony in that is standing out is actually the advantage. And so being the on the other side is what's going to give you the advantage to attract the talent that like that side.

    00;07;20;01 - 00;07;36;15
    Khaled Hussein
    And so this is kind of, you know, like sticking and it's an identity company culture, identity and all of that is if we are remote, we're sticking to remote. If everybody going back to the office, that's even better for us, because we're going to get the talent that's interested in being remote easier and it's, you know, more accessible for us.

    00;07;36;17 - 00;08;01;11
    Wayne Turmel
    you know, you just said something that's kind of interesting and it's a little bit of a rabbit hole, but it's my show. And if I want to go down the rabbit hole, I can do that. I love it. you said that, you know, CEOs are kind of struggling with this. How comfortable are they on average? And I know it's nuanced and I know it's by industry and all kinds of things, but have they become more comfortable with the whole concept of remote?

    00;08;01;11 - 00;08;05;28
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, before Covid, they were the they were the ones that were convinced this was never going to work.

    00;08;05;29 - 00;08;09;09
    Khaled Hussein
    Yep. So what I see in the market today. Yeah.

    00;08;09;10 - 00;08;12;10
    Wayne Turmel
    And have they gotten more comfortable with it.

    00;08;12;12 - 00;08;43;22
    Khaled Hussein
    Yeah I see a lot of, I see it at different stages. I see a lot of times in the early stage, you know, you have two co-founders and maybe 2 or 3, you know, team members. They are actually comfortable either way. They're comfortable being everybody is in the same room. And they tend to be, you know, friends that got together and they have, you know, and new concept or a new startup and they want to start it or I see that, hey, you know, two co-founders and then they found two other, you know, or three other team members that are remote.

    00;08;43;22 - 00;09;02;23
    Khaled Hussein
    And everybody just pants on. And they're really kind of very efficient. And I, I see, you know, I see both sides 5050. And I think this is really great. As the company continues to grow and you add more and more people and there's more processes and there's a middle management layer and there is, you know, you start to really scale your business.

    00;09;02;25 - 00;09;32;21
    Khaled Hussein
    I see a lot of them become pretty uncomfortable with remote, because they have this little bit of fear. And I think, you know, it's not completely irrational, but they do have this fear of, hey, we can be more efficient and more productive if we bring people to the office, because there's a lot of, you know, the, the hallway conversations that are happening, the information sharing as a CEO, your number one thing is, you know, besides recruiting is making sure everybody has all the right information they need.

    00;09;32;23 - 00;10;01;08
    Khaled Hussein
    And so information entropy happens a lot better if everybody is obviously in, in the office. So I think they're not totally, wrong in that. But the flip side of that is there is also while you share the information, there is actually in a way, depending on the company, there is a little bit of, efficiency loss in the hallway communication, because this is not heads down.

    00;10;01;08 - 00;10;24;11
    Khaled Hussein
    I'm doing my work. And, you know, we're having a chat. and so there is, you know, pros and cons for either, and I think it really goes back to you as founders and as going to C-suite, what type of company we want to build. And I think just remove all other distractions and remove media as saying, you know, employees are the vacations, remote vacations and things of that nature.

    00;10;24;11 - 00;10;31;26
    Khaled Hussein
    You just need to ignore all the noise and focus on kind of building the right company that you want to build and, and was the right, and you stick to that identity.

    00;10;31;26 - 00;10;49;07
    Wayne Turmel
    So what are three things? Let's say if I've decided that I want, at the very least a hybrid culture, right, that people aren't going to be in the office all day, every day, what are three things that we need to think about if we're going to go out and recruit people?

    00;10;49;07 - 00;11;10;27
    Khaled Hussein
    Yeah. So hybrid is interesting. Hybrid is so interesting to me. And I'm having a little bit of, you know, some some thoughts on hybrid. Hybrid is interesting because if it's going to be hybrid then you have to hire people that are within your 20 miles, right. Or 30 miles. So you kind of limited your talent pool. And I have to hire within this.

    00;11;11;00 - 00;11;36;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Although I have heard I have a great example, the federal government and I will not name the agency because I don't want to throw anybody under a bus. But there's one federal agency. The rule is you have to be in the office two days every pay period. So somebody I know actually commutes from Florida to Washington DC to fulfill those two dates.

    00;11;36;05 - 00;11;52;23
    Khaled Hussein
    Wow. Okay. Yeah. And and, you know, interesting to know also how long the pay period. But, yeah, this is this this makes sense. But you know, for the majority of the time you end up if you're thinking of a hybrid, you're kind of thinking of people that are more or less in your city or kind of, you know, easy commute.

    00;11;52;23 - 00;12;16;11
    Khaled Hussein
    And so it limits the talent pool. Personally, I've been kind of telling people, you, you know, it's better to choose one or the other and create more frequency. And so, of getting together. So if you are remote and you're, you know, you get together every quarter making every month, you know, you can make that happen. And so but that way just opens up the talent pool for you.

    00;12;16;14 - 00;12;33;07
    Khaled Hussein
    and, you know, we are we are a remote company. we had an office, and we, we meet in the office every single day for a very long time. And then we ended up kind of hiring. We wanted to expand our talent pool, and we didn't want to restrict the specific job. So we turned the company into remote.

    00;12;33;10 - 00;12;50;07
    Khaled Hussein
    And so, I, you know, doing the hybrid, it felt like work kind of, in many ways, you know, we'll see that there's a lot of, research being done on that. But in many ways, I feel like hybrid misses that the benefits of both sides. It's a you and I.

    00;12;50;08 - 00;13;13;27
    Wayne Turmel
    I completely agree, and I think it goes back to what I said a little bit earlier, which is for most organizations, hybrid is a compromise. It's not a strategy. Right. It's like we want really you. Yeah, one way or the other. And so we'll call ourselves hybrid. But that kind of timid make a decision already you morons. thing.

    00;13;13;29 - 00;13;28;20
    Khaled Hussein
    Exactly. I'm trying to beat around the bush, but you're exactly right, I think. I think he can. I get the worst of both sides here. It's like two is one and just going to stick to it. And there is tooling and systems and processes for each one. Like we know how to work in office. And there is, you know, playbooks for that.

    00;13;28;25 - 00;13;39;24
    Khaled Hussein
    We've also learned how to work remote in the last few years. And that is playbooks for that and tooling and everything down there. We don't really have anything for that thing in the middle. Like, you know, which one is it.

    00;13;39;27 - 00;13;50;17
    Wayne Turmel
    And so and it's so easy for companies to if they are hybrid, they default to the rules that made sense when everybody was in the office.

    00;13;50;20 - 00;13;52;00
    Khaled Hussein
    That's right. That's right.

    00;13;52;03 - 00;14;16;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay. So that's on the so make a decision already is what we're trying to say. so now let's talk about the talent pool of folks. Right. What are they finding out there is I I've heard that there's a lot of bait and switch around remote work that, you know, people are kind of promising a degree of flexibility that doesn't really exist.

    00;14;16;27 - 00;14;33;02
    Wayne Turmel
    so, first of all, if I'm out there looking for a job which thankfully, knock on wood, I am not. But if I were out there looking for a job, what am I looking for? What's legit? What are the things that maybe I need to watch out for?

    00;14;33;05 - 00;14;56;27
    Khaled Hussein
    Yeah, you know, I kind of following the thread from before choosing a hybrid company, you know, has its own challenges also because, you know, the different, pros and cons for either side of very well defined. But that middle layer is and honestly there are we do even, you know, for better link when we're hiring. We do talk to a lot of talent that, hey, I like to be around people.

    00;14;56;27 - 00;15;13;29
    Khaled Hussein
    I like to meet people I like. So, you know, that frequency of getting together is really important. I think we're social beings, and I get that there's nothing, wrong about us. Not crazy or anything, but there is also the. Hey, I'd like to be heads down. I like to find talent, and I like to be able to travel.

    00;15;13;29 - 00;15;35;18
    Khaled Hussein
    I like to take care of my family. I like to do this and this and this and that and and I get my work done. And I think that could be done anywhere. I'm fortunate, you know, within tech and all that kind of stuff. And that could be done, anywhere. So I do think talent now are definitely starting to run into CEOs and companies making decision for either hybrid or coming back to office.

    00;15;35;18 - 00;16;09;27
    Khaled Hussein
    So now they have to choose not just the company that they're passionate about, their mission and their product, but they have to choose a company that's within a location that they're willing to via. And so it makes it even harder for them to really find, you know, the right job and the right opportunity. But also on top of that is, you have to you have to think, if I'm going to be remote, then the pool of company is now that is willing to be remote, that will continue that you kind of when you're talking to that C-suite, that that company and you see that they will continue to be because you don't want to

    00;16;09;27 - 00;16;28;20
    Khaled Hussein
    work at a company that six months later they're going to change that policy. And so, you know, you have to kind of test that as a candidate and you have to find a company that. But the pool of those companies have shrunk a lot. right now there is definitely a lot more, a lot less companies that are willing to be fully remote.

    00;16;28;20 - 00;16;34;06
    Khaled Hussein
    And there is a lot more towards coming back to office or some sort of, of a hybrid.

    00;16;34;07 - 00;16;55;10
    Wayne Turmel
    Is the coming back to the office thing. Is that just, you know, the pendulum is going to keep swinging. We're going to all go back to the office and then people are going to get fed up and start working from home again and working remotely. And then somebody in three years is going to get a bug in their hat and they're going to bring everybody back to the office.

    00;16;55;17 - 00;17;03;07
    Wayne Turmel
    I get the sense that it's just this pendulum that keeps swinging more so than conscious decisions being made.

    00;17;03;10 - 00;17;22;12
    Khaled Hussein
    See, I actually feel, this one, you know, I kind of have a slightly different opinion there. I do think we were forced to do remote. I think we had, you know, the external event that kind of forced everybody to be remote. So I don't think it was, you know, somebody that came up with this idea. And then we swung.

    00;17;22;12 - 00;17;38;02
    Khaled Hussein
    So I actually think it was the initial kind of change was an external factor and we had to adapt. Human beings are great at that. And now we realize, well, okay, we ran into all kinds of things here that we kind of maybe let's go back to what we were used to. But I don't think there's a swing here.

    00;17;38;02 - 00;17;58;29
    Khaled Hussein
    I actually think we're just kind of going back to what we're used to. This was just a forced thing. And what I think will happen is not that we kind of go back to being normal, but what I think will happen is different stages. I think we're going to see early stage companies are more open to being remote, and that will continue to be the case.

    00;17;58;29 - 00;18;19;14
    Khaled Hussein
    So I don't think there is a swing yet. I think it will continue to be the case because that the different stages of companies were remote really worked so well. I think those or just will recognize that and will continue to do that. And you'll find the investors even pushing for this. Refine CEOs and founders and playbooks are being decimated about like how do you do that?

    00;18;19;16 - 00;18;41;28
    Khaled Hussein
    And and I think, you know, larger stages, I think, you know, we're seeing right now with, you know, the apples of the world and Amazon that were not there kind of bringing, you know, people back to the office. And I think that will likely can I continue to be that. And then, so I think it's going to depend on which stage you're going to be part of.

    00;18;42;01 - 00;18;49;06
    Wayne Turmel
    So if I want remote to be part of my work, I should be looking at startups as opposed to legacy companies.

    00;18;49;08 - 00;18;57;23
    Khaled Hussein
    I think you will have higher chances of finding the right company with the right culture that is open to remote as you go a little bit earlier stage.

    00;18;57;25 - 00;19;28;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Dang well, this conversation went all kinds of places and I am not mad at that, actually. thank you, Khalid, for, you know, putting us in the C-suite mindset set and letting us know what's going on. if you want to know more about Khalid and about Better Leap and all that good stuff, we will have the, links in the show notes, which I will talk about in a second.

    00;19;28;27 - 00;19;31;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Khalid, anything you want to leave us with?

    00;19;31;06 - 00;19;59;03
    Khaled Hussein
    first of all, thank you so much for having me. You really. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I think, the one thing I'll say is, hey, recruiting is. And kind of the labor force is, is core to our culture and core to our economy. And I think we go through the ups and downs of that. And I think, you know, just, in a time where markets are tough and people are getting laid off and people are getting you know, try to find work life balance and try to find the right job opportunities, things can get tough.

    00;19;59;03 - 00;20;17;07
    Khaled Hussein
    But I want to I want to say that we've been here before and we survived this and and I know we will again. And I think I don't want people to lose hope. There's a lot of opportunities out there. And there is, we just have to be more clever in our approach. And, there is there there's hope.

    00;20;17;13 - 00;20;42;23
    Wayne Turmel
    There is hope. We will take that as our final words. Again, if you are interested in the transcript for this, conversation or learning more about Khalid and better Lee, we will have all of that stuff at long distance work life.com. we are really, really proud of the fact that our numbers are growing. People are listening to us.

    00;20;42;24 - 00;21;08;05
    Wayne Turmel
    You can decide why you decided to do that. but like and subscribe and tell others about the show. We are very excited. We also love to hear from you. We get a lot of show ideas from our listeners. pet peeves, things you want to vent about, things that you want to know that we should look and find good guests like Khalid.

    00;21;08;07 - 00;21;32;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Drop a line to either Marissa. Right. You can find that, you can find us on LinkedIn. You can just email us either Wayne or Marissa at Kevin eikenberry.com. And if you are interested in learning the skills necessary to be a leader in the hybrid remote, ever changing world of work, check out our long distance leadership series.

    00;21;32;11 - 00;21;53;01
    Wayne Turmel
    We do those several times a year. Or if you're interested in bringing that in-house to your company, do that. Darn it, I am done. That's another week of our lives. Khaled, thank you so much for being with us. And, for those of you listening, have a great week. Don't let the weasels get you down.

    00;21;53;03 - 00;22;05;05
    Unknown


    00;22;05;07 - 00;22;06;17
    Unknown



    Featured Guest

    Name: Khaled Hussein

    Bio: Khaled Hussein is an expert in talent acquisition and remote work strategies, currently leading at Betterleap. He is renowned for his insights into the modern employment market and innovative recruitment approaches, bridging the gap between skilled professionals and forward-thinking employers.

    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    01:03 Defining Talent Stagnation
    03:23 Remote Work as a Perk
    05:37 CEO Pressures and Decisions
    10:49 Hybrid Work Challenges
    14:33 Recruiting in a Hybrid Environment
    16:34 Advice for Job Seekers
    17:03 The Future of Remote Work
    19:28 Conclusion

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Long-Distance Leadership Series

    If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

     Learn More
    Read More
    Celebrating 100 Episodes: What We've Learned About Remote Work
    Ask Wayne Anything

    Celebrating 100 Episodes: What We’ve Learned About Remote Work

    In this special milestone episode of the Long-Distance Worklife Podcast, hosts Wayne Turmel and Marisa Eikenberry reflect on their journey through 100 episodes. They share the most impactful lessons and insights they've gained about remote work, leadership, and thriving in hybrid teams. From communication strategies to maintaining work-life balance, this episode is a treasure trove of practical advice and thoughtful reflections. Join us as we celebrate this achievement and look forward to many more episodes to come.

    Key Points

    • Reflections on reaching 100 episodes
    • Top lessons learned about remote work and leadership
    • Effective communication strategies in remote teams
    • Maintaining work-life balance in a remote environment
    • The evolution of remote work over the course of the podcast
    • Listener feedback and how it has shaped the podcast

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;07;27 - 00;00;09;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Welcome back to the Long-Distance worklife.

    00;00;09;23 - 00;00;18;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    We help you lead, work and thrive in remote hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel.

    00;00;18;19 - 00;00;22;00
    Wayne Turmel
    I want hello, lady. How are you?

    00;00;22;02 - 00;00;23;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I'm great. How are you?

    00;00;24;00 - 00;00;39;11
    Wayne Turmel
    I am swell. Hello, listeners. I am feeling my mortality today as we realize how long we've been. I've been doing this, and you and I have been doing this right. It's been a while.

    00;00;39;18 - 00;00;58;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. So actually, recently, we not only hit our two year anniversary of the show, which I think was somewhere around March 28th. But in addition to that, we have also crossed our 100th episode and we weren't paying attention to it. So we actually missed what the exact 100th episode is. But we decided we're going to talk about that.

    00;00;58;19 - 00;01;09;24
    Wayne Turmel
    18 when you crank out one of these a week and there are 52 weeks in a year times two years, it's sometime in the last couple of weeks.

    00;01;10;00 - 00;01;28;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, somewhere around in there, something like that. And I know we had some weeks where we didn't release an episode at all. And so at first something's off, but that being said, today we're going to talk about the lessons that we've learned through 100 episodes. And in my case, I've only been on 50 of them.

    00;01;28;09 - 00;01;43;18
    Wayne Turmel
    So but you have listened to and edited and been in on the conversations, even on those. And you've been listening to those as a learner, as our audience hears it.

    00;01;43;21 - 00;02;03;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That is true. So thinking about our very first episode, which I'm fairly certain was what is remote work or when did remote work start, you know, what were some of the initial expectations that you had when we started the show?

    00;02;03;21 - 00;02;37;22
    Wayne Turmel
    I mean, there's the cynical, pragmatic, take your pick of words, approach, which was we wanted to get the word out about the work that we did absolutely do. Right. And the work that we do as long distance leader and and the classes, our leadership series. And so there was a mercenary component to this. I think it's important that we also, look at our role as offering some perspective.

    00;02;37;25 - 00;02;39;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;02;39;10 - 00;02;58;15
    Wayne Turmel
    And one of the things that I did not expect to have happen, and we've gotten some pushback for this, is I did not expect that the most zealous remote work advocates would get cranky with us on occasion.

    00;02;58;18 - 00;03;16;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And they do. yeah. I hadn't thought about that until you said that, but there have definitely been some times where we have pushed back against the zealot way of thinking, and we're seem oddly or thought to be the zealots, and we're not.

    00;03;16;17 - 00;03;34;00
    Wayne Turmel
    And that's the thing, is that at the end of the day, our concern for this show and my concern that has driven my entire career in this business, which is literally this week, 28 years, by the way.

    00;03;34;02 - 00;03;35;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Wow.

    00;03;35;02 - 00;03;38;22
    Wayne Turmel
    May 6th, 1996 was my first job in the training industry.

    00;03;38;27 - 00;03;45;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    To say it, I will not comment on the fact I'm only 32.

    00;03;45;15 - 00;04;13;12
    Wayne Turmel
    A two Berta. but, my concern and what has driven me has always been helping people get through work, and the way that we work is changing. And has changed and will continue to change. And there is always the tension between what needs to be done for the employer, for the business, which is a perfectly legitimate concern.

    00;04;13;14 - 00;04;39;18
    Wayne Turmel
    Business doesn't make money, doesn't keep its stores open, people don't have jobs. Our employees owe their employers right the fruits of their labor, and they get a paycheck in exchange. And and so the circumstances of remote work have changed. And the way that we interact has changed. And I think our job is to help people navigate that and make good choices.

    00;04;39;21 - 00;04;41;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? Absolutely.

    00;04;41;22 - 00;04;53;20
    Wayne Turmel
    this notion that all jobs can be done remotely, while more true than we ever thought it could be. Yeah, is also not universally true.

    00;04;53;22 - 00;04;55;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. And we've talked about that a lot on this show.

    00;04;55;29 - 00;05;02;09
    Wayne Turmel
    You can work from home all day long if you can find somebody to pay you to do it right.

    00;05;02;12 - 00;05;05;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And there are some jobs that they just they can't be remote.

    00;05;05;24 - 00;05;42;06
    Wayne Turmel
    The job, the the purpose of our show is to help people work where and when it makes sense. And we get lumped in frequently with the zealots. And the truth of the matter is, not all work can be done remotely. Not all work should be done remotely, and not everybody is cut out for it. And if you are going to work remotely, if you are unhappy with being in the office all the time in your experiments, experimenting or exploring the idea of remote work, here's how to do it.

    00;05;42;06 - 00;05;58;05
    Wayne Turmel
    And here's how we can help. And we hope that this gets you through it and keeps the weasels at bay. So you know, we are not zealots, nor are we always on the side of the people who say, go into the office.

    00;05;58;07 - 00;05;59;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;05;59;17 - 00;06;08;17
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, it's about navigating the realities and hopefully that's what we're bringing. But we've done some stuff. I mean, 100 episodes, good heavens.

    00;06;08;17 - 00;06;22;03
    Marisa Eikenberry
    There's yeah, we've talked about a lot of stuff and so on that line. So like, what has been the most surprising lesson or maybe like an unexpected discovery while we've been doing this podcast?

    00;06;22;05 - 00;06;58;09
    Wayne Turmel
    I think the unexpected discovery was really how so many timeless concepts are relevant in the context of remote work. And I'm thinking specifically about the Johari Window episode that we did with a lot of people fell into. And, I mean, I dealt with the Johari window when the process first came out in the 80s, and people were looking at it and, you know, it was new to my career, and I did all that, and I taught it, and I talked about it and I thought, oh, it's old news.

    00;06;58;09 - 00;07;23;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Everybody knows it. But the purpose, just for those of you who want to go back and listen to it or don't remember, the Johari window says that we look at the world through this window that has four kind of panes to it. Right? There's what we see and we know we see it, and that's what it is. There's what we see and there's stuff there that we don't know.

    00;07;23;15 - 00;07;39;24
    Wayne Turmel
    There's what people see of us that we're aware of. Right. And stuff that people may not be aware of and everything. And of course that's true regardless. And that was a bad explanation. But you can go back and listen to.

    00;07;39;24 - 00;07;41;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah we'll have a link in the show notes.

    00;07;41;13 - 00;07;56;10
    Wayne Turmel
    But the point is that there there's always what you see. And there's something unseen behind it when you work remotely or when you lead people remotely, it is literally unseen.

    00;07;56;12 - 00;07;58;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;07;58;15 - 00;08;20;15
    Wayne Turmel
    So not only are the there the normal things. Right? Is she telling me the truth when she says she's on time for that project? But I can't look her in the eye. I can't look over her shoulder and see what she's doing. I can't hear the conversations she's having with her coworkers.

    00;08;20;17 - 00;08;22;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Can't see her visibly sweating as she tells.

    00;08;22;24 - 00;08;38;22
    Wayne Turmel
    Can't see her visibly sweating or, you know, rolling her eyes or whatever it is. and so that notion of so much what we do in the remote work space is white space.

    00;08;38;25 - 00;08;39;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;08;39;15 - 00;08;42;02
    Wayne Turmel
    We don't know what's going on there.

    00;08;42;04 - 00;08;43;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    We are entering into the void.

    00;08;44;02 - 00;09;08;02
    Wayne Turmel
    We need to actively seek it, and we need to have trust that our communication is clear and that people are understanding. And if there is a problem that they are willing to give us that feedback that we're getting, the feedback we need to do the job, whether they're the individual contributor or the, the manager leader, boss. Right.

    00;09;08;04 - 00;09;33;05
    Wayne Turmel
    And so while I knew that to be true, it. Always amazes me how what is true has always been true and continues to be true and will ever be true. And we get lost sometimes in the minutia of the work and the stress of working in new ways and new environments.

    00;09;33;08 - 00;09;50;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? Well, and I remember when we even talked about doing that episode, you were like, I know I'm thinking about this and, you know, but I don't know. And I was like, what the heck is that? And it was that moment of, oh, right, there are all these other people that are entering the workforce have no idea what this is.

    00;09;50;10 - 00;10;00;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And now it's one of our top episodes. And the clip of us explaining it on our YouTube, I think is one of the top clips we've ever done. So people are clearly interested.

    00;10;00;29 - 00;10;25;28
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, it's funny, I remember we did an episode with my friend Trina Halfling and we were talking about what did we get wrong? Right? Because she and I have both been in this space a very long time. We were both, you know, 15 years before Covid, talking about remote work and helping people to make that adjustment. And what did we get wrong?

    00;10;25;28 - 00;10;50;14
    Wayne Turmel
    And I think, you know, some of the things we got wrong were expected, right? We didn't have the technology we did. So the growth of things like teams and slack and and those kinds of collaboration tools, we couldn't have predicted that. I think the biggest thing that we was the jobs that could be done.

    00;10;50;16 - 00;10;51;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;10;51;10 - 00;10;52;16
    Wayne Turmel
    Remotely.

    00;10;52;18 - 00;11;03;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely. We had no idea how prevalent it was until 2020 happened. And it was like, oh, we thought this could never be done remotely, but it actually can.

    00;11;03;13 - 00;11;38;14
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. And, you know, we had a conversation with Alan Whitman, who is the head of an accounting firm, and talk about old hidebound businesses that ran by tradition. Let's talk about CPA firms. And even prior to Covid, he was in the process of and you can listen to this exercise. We'll have links in the show notes, he was in the process of revolutionizing things by saying, you know, you sit at a computer and crunch numbers all day.

    00;11;38;16 - 00;11;44;09
    Wayne Turmel
    The benefits of being in the same crowded room to do that aren't what we thought they were.

    00;11;44;11 - 00;11;45;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;11;46;01 - 00;11;56;13
    Wayne Turmel
    And by thinking about remote work differently, you know, yes, you are giving up some things. The office party really sucks, when everybody.

    00;11;56;17 - 00;11;57;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Says it's not good.

    00;11;57;23 - 00;12;32;17
    Wayne Turmel
    The pizza isn't that good. And, you know, happy hour is kind of sad and clinically dangerous. But there are advantages, right? Yes. You don't have that everyday communication. There are ways to mitigate that so that you can have real time collaboration and cooperation if you need it. But you can expand the geographic reach. I mean, when companies say we hire the best available people, well, what you mean is you hire the best available people within a 20 mile radius of your office.

    00;12;32;19 - 00;12;35;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;12;35;19 - 00;13;05;16
    Wayne Turmel
    When you open yourself up to working remotely, your talent pool expands, your customer pool expands your right. So people that are re thing king. The old ways of thinking and making it work, are interesting to me, and I think Allen's episode was a really good example of that. Yeah, I've also the other thing that does depress me about it.

    00;13;05;16 - 00;13;07;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Okay.

    00;13;07;12 - 00;13;31;11
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, I was going to say, you know, and that's when you're looking at the future, it's like, look at the all the good stuff and the positive and, and this is where the remote work folks sometimes get a bit rose colored glasses about the whole thing. Certain things continue to depress me. in many ways it's made the issue of sick days worse.

    00;13;31;13 - 00;13;32;14
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. And we've talked.

    00;13;32;15 - 00;13;55;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Americans were always terrible about taking their sick days. Most Americans don't nearly take all the time off that is available to them anyway, and they tend not to take their sick days, because they're saving it up so they can use them for vacation days, which they may then don't take,

    00;13;55;28 - 00;14;20;00
    Wayne Turmel
    But when you're at home, a lot of us are like, well, yeah, I'm sick, but I'm already home. So I'll get on that call or I'll answer those emails or I'll do these things which add can add if you're not careful and mindful to the stress and the burnout and other things that are a legitimate concern about remote work.

    00;14;20;03 - 00;14;23;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? Absolutely.

    00;14;23;12 - 00;14;34;05
    Wayne Turmel
    What about you, lady? I mean, you it's funny, you are only you are only actively engaged here and half of the shows.

    00;14;34;07 - 00;14;35;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;14;35;10 - 00;14;51;11
    Wayne Turmel
    But you edit and listen to and and have sat in on these conversations. And by the way, while I have had a lot of these conversations over the last 28 years, a lot of this is new to you. What have you or what surprised you?

    00;14;51;13 - 00;15;16;06
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. so this is one of the things that has surprised me, and it's less about what you and I have talked about as far as, like, learning something, but never knowing what's going to resonate from the listener's perspective. So we had an episode, and I'll link to it about their return to office backfire and scare tactics that were being used to get people back into the office.

    00;15;16;06 - 00;15;27;06
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And one of them was this crazy avatar, and her name was Anna, and she looked decrepit and, we made a nice layered joke and it was great.

    00;15;27;09 - 00;16;04;22
    Wayne Turmel
    But content and context. A company in the UK, who had which had a vested interest in getting people back to the office, created this avatar and this. Yeah, they sold office furniture. And it was this whole avatar about, what happens when you work from home remotely. And Anna was this vaguely Jabba the Hutt ish type who was working in bed with, like, food wrappers and all kinds of things, and she had this sickly pallor because, of course, that's what happens when you work from home, right?

    00;16;04;25 - 00;16;06;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;16;06;13 - 00;16;11;20
    Wayne Turmel
    but people did. People's reaction to that was pretty vociferous.

    00;16;11;20 - 00;16;38;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Was the most wild thing. So not only did that episode kind of had a, I mean, for us, many viral moments on YouTube, and for us, many viral is like it got 7000 views and that was incredible for us, but it just kept getting more views and we weren't expecting that to happen. Like, why did that one take off as opposed to some of the other ones?

    00;16;38;13 - 00;16;58;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    But some of the comments were interesting too, because we did have some people that were thanking us for talking about that subject and talking about, you know, why it was wrong. And we had others that were like, you know, okay, you guys are fat. Go back to the office. there were some I deleted, you know, or you guys are lazy because you won't go back to the office.

    00;16;58;23 - 00;17;07;03
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And it was like, I'm a hybrid employee, first off. And to, like, we're still doing our job. We're just doing. Yeah. From I think.

    00;17;07;03 - 00;17;32;16
    Wayne Turmel
    That's I think one of the things and by the way, if you haven't figured out by now, we do in fact, listen to you listeners. So, you know, comments, questions, vicious personal attacks. We look at them all and we incorporate them into the show. Some of the most fun episodes we've had are like pet peeves or answering specific questions or, you know, why do you hate virtual meetings, right?

    00;17;32;16 - 00;17;33;13
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. Whatever it is.

    00;17;33;17 - 00;17;34;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, yeah.

    00;17;34;29 - 00;18;08;17
    Wayne Turmel
    But I think that. The tension around remote work, is something that if we've done anything really well. Over the last two years, 100 episodes, I think it's being pretty candid about benefits and minuses and what works in order to make it successful. And what do you need to watch out for that may make it less so. And maybe that's not such a good idea.

    00;18;08;19 - 00;18;16;00
    Wayne Turmel
    I think that that's something that we've done pretty well, and I hope that the listeners, agree with us on that.

    00;18;16;02 - 00;18;38;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I think some of the other thing that's been really fun, too, is some of the topics that we've talked about where you and I approach the same topic a little differently. A because I've not been doing this nearly as long as you have. I just had my 10th anniversary at the company just last week. And, you know, and I have not worked from home most of that time.

    00;18;38;19 - 00;18;56;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    All the time I used to be in the office full time. And so there have been some things that as a digital native, I'm going to approach that subject differently than you are. And it doesn't mean that one of us is wrong. It's just a different way of looking at it and a way of us taking both perspectives and learning from each other.

    00;18;56;23 - 00;19;24;22
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, I think that the demographic differences are really important. we are at a unique time where we're going from people who had to learn to use a computer to people who practically have implants. You know, that idea of the digital native is a big change in how people approach their work and what it means to be productive.

    00;19;24;24 - 00;20;14;15
    Wayne Turmel
    I think that the demographic changes moving from, you know, the baby boomers through whatever artificial divisions we put in there. Yeah, X, y, Z, millennials, echo boomers, Zoomers, you know, Zoomers. y rabbits, whatever the heck you want to call the different groups of people. Those differences are real, and they have both. Positive benefits that they bring to the workplace and ideas, you know, I remember talking to somebody about meetings and somebody said, you know, these darn kid assets in a sentence that starts with these darn kids.

    00;20;14;15 - 00;20;34;05
    Wayne Turmel
    I usually know I'm going to really enjoy this conversation. Yeah. but it started with these darn kids. You know, they have no attention span and they aren't willing to sit through a meeting knowing that the meetings are going to be awful. But they got to do them. And I said, says who?

    00;20;34;07 - 00;20;44;02
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. Why would I sit in a meeting? That's awful and does nothing for me when I could be doing a project that I've also been assigned to do? Yeah.

    00;20;44;04 - 00;20;50;10
    Wayne Turmel
    so maybe what we need to do is make the meetings less awful.

    00;20;50;13 - 00;20;52;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    A strange concept.

    00;20;52;08 - 00;21;03;14
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, it's like, yes, I have calluses on my butt from sitting for long periods of time, inactive. But that's not a badge of honor, you know?

    00;21;03;17 - 00;21;05;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;21;05;15 - 00;21;22;09
    Wayne Turmel
    so I think that our, Even though you are an extremely old soul, I think that the demographic differences make a lot of have a lot of meaning and add a lot to the conversation.

    00;21;22;13 - 00;21;43;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, I think so, too. And, well, and even, like, a funny behind the scenes for some of you that are listening, like we did have a conversation once and I will have to look and find out what the episode was because I do not remember stuff I had. But you know, we were talking about the differences between the generations and how they work from home.

    00;21;43;06 - 00;22;07;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And you had asked me about, well, how do your friends feel about it? How do and I don't have friends that work from home like none of my immediate friends work from home. They've all got jobs that they go into the office for because they have to, or in medicine or whatever. And I remember having a moment of, I can't just tell them like, I don't have I'm trying to make up something on the spot.

    00;22;07;29 - 00;22;10;14
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So, you know, that was that was super fun.

    00;22;10;16 - 00;22;19;09
    Wayne Turmel
    but something you didn't have to make up. I loved the episode that we did where we used you as the guinea pig for the, gaming avatar.

    00;22;19;10 - 00;22;40;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I had so much fun, that it was like I got to have my hobbies and my interests and everything all wrapped up into one, and it was a it was a beautiful thing we still use. So work in that organization today. and we still have fun with it. So there's that. So so I'll link to that to.

    00;22;40;24 - 00;23;05;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. So I know we could go on about this forever. And self-congratulatory anniversary episodes are usually painless. what do you think, listeners, what have you learned from the show? What do you enjoy about it? What do you hate about it? tell us, what do you want to hear more of? This is a really good time to take stock and assess.

    00;23;05;17 - 00;23;12;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Are we bringing you what you want to hear? So let us know. And that is not lip service. We need to know that stuff.

    00;23;12;18 - 00;23;32;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah I was going to say I legitimately look at every comment that we get on all of our social media platforms. And as long as you're not a jerk, I don't delete the comment. So and usually respond. But that being said, Wayne, thank you so much for 100 episodes and here's to 100 more literally.

    00;23;32;18 - 00;23;39;07
    Wayne Turmel
    Would not have been possible without you lady. So, you do all the heavy, heavy lifting on the back end.

    00;23;39;07 - 00;23;42;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So when someone told you to do it.

    00;23;42;12 - 00;24;06;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Plus you're the one that told me to do it. thank you to Marissa. Thank you to Kevin and the team at the Kevin Eikenberry Group who keep us afloat and paid. And thank you to you listeners. you know, we want to do what you need from us. That's what we do here. So, thank you for listening.

    00;24;06;22 - 00;24;08;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Marissa, bring us home.

    00;24;08;21 - 00;24;28;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, as I said, thank you so much for listening and for show notes, transcripts and other resources from this show or any other of our episodes, visit long distance work life.com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes. While you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show.

    00;24;28;12 - 00;24;44;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes. Let us know you listen to this episode, what you liked, what you hated. We'll listen to both and even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode. We really want to hear from you, and we really want to talk about the topics.

    00;24;44;25 - 00;25;06;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You want to talk about. And before we sign off, I want to tell you about our long distance leadership series at Kevin nike.com/ld. Liz. Whether you're a seasoned leader or stepping into remotely leadership role for the first time, this series offers practical tools and expert advice to help you succeed. It's great for individuals or for your whole leadership team.

    00;25;06;11 - 00;25;24;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Again, that's Kevin eichenberg.com/l d. Let's start strengthening your remote leadership skills today. Thank you so much for joining us for over 100 episodes. Whether this is your first one or you've been with us for a long time. And this way I'd like to say don't let the voices get you down.

    00;25;24;15 - 00;25;29;05




    Timestamps

    0:00 Introduction
    1:00 Celebrating 100 Episodes
    2:30 Top Lessons on Remote Work
    5:00 Effective Communication Strategies
    8:00 Work-Life Balance Tips
    12:00 Evolution of Remote Work
    15:30 Listener Feedback and Impact
    18:00 Looking Forward to Future Episodes

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Long-Distance Leadership Series

    If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

     Learn More
    Read More
    Fantasized Talent: How Remote Work Changes Self-Perception
    Guests, Leadership

    Fantasized Talent: How Remote Work Changes Self-Perception with Jim Frawley

    In this episode of the Long-Distance Worklife Podcast, Wayne Turmel interviews Jim Frawley, the author of "Fantasized Talent" and an expert in executive development. Jim delves into the concept of fantasized talent, a term he coined to describe a specific type of overconfidence that can emerge in the absence of real feedback, particularly in remote work settings. Wayne and Jim discuss the challenges of receiving and giving feedback remotely, the psychological aspects of imposter syndrome and fantasized talent, and practical strategies for both individuals and leaders to navigate these challenges effectively.

    Key Points

    • Introduction to fantasized talent and its implications.
    • Comparison between imposter syndrome and fantasized talent.
    • The importance of feedback in maintaining a realistic self-perception.
    • How remote work can exacerbate the lack of feedback.
    • Strategies for individuals to seek meaningful feedback.
    • Tips for leaders to provide effective feedback in a remote environment.
    • The role of social cues and context in communication and feedback.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;06 - 00;00;43;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Long Distance Worklife, the podcast where we try to help you thrive, survive, generally keep the weasels at bay in this crazy world of remote and hybrid. And whatever your work situation Sean is. my name is Wayne Tremmel. I am with Kevin Eikenberry Group, my regular co-host. Marissa. I can Barry is not with us today, which means it's an interview episode and we have a really good one for you today.

    00;00;44;00 - 00;01;05;29
    Wayne Turmel
    I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. So before I run over my intro and get all redundant on you, I am going to call in Jim Frawley. Jim is, the author of Fantasized Talent. And Jim, who are you? What should we know about you? And then we'll jump in.

    00;01;06;01 - 00;01;30;07
    Jim Frawley
    Sure. My name is Jim Frawley. I run an organization called bellwether, and we do executive development. We're based in New York, and we, really do executive development from the top, straight on down throughout the organization. My background was in executive communications, mostly in the financial industry. So that's where I really earned my chops. And as we take a look, our real sweet spot is how do you get people to prepare for change when they don't know what change is coming?

    00;01;30;10 - 00;01;39;11
    Jim Frawley
    And part of that is the remote work that we saw with with Covid and everything else, and the way that the workplace has changed over time. So we really help people adapt to that.

    00;01;39;14 - 00;01;58;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Now there is a cool phrase which you have adopted called fantasize talent, which sounds extremely consultancy and and gimmicky, but there's an actual really, really excellent point here that I would love you to kind of define for us and tell us what we're in for.

    00;01;58;15 - 00;02;18;24
    Jim Frawley
    Yeah, it, so the term fantasized talent and it came up, I was giving a presentation in Vegas at an HR conference, and someone asked if, imposter syndrome was getting increased with all this work from home. And what I've actually seen as I thought about it was this idea of fantasize talent, fantasize talent comes. There's an assessment.

    00;02;18;26 - 00;02;51;06
    Jim Frawley
    It's a great assessment called The Hogan. It's a leadership assessment that has all kind of full gamut of how are you when you're at your best? What do people see when you're at your worst? then there's another report you can get on your values, your motivations of I mean, it really covers the whole kind of circle. And one of the areas to look out for, for some people, is this idea of fantasized talent, which is believing that you either are born for greatness or you have this really, original, inventive, unique.

    00;02;51;06 - 00;03;12;20
    Jim Frawley
    You are special. and it can be perceived as a very arrogant, attribute of you when we're really under stress. Sometimes this can, if this is one of your your noted components of a Hogan, this can be seen when you're under stress. It's one of those negative behaviors that people can see because you think that you're destined for this greatness that can push other people down.

    00;03;12;20 - 00;03;27;28
    Jim Frawley
    And, and we are seeing I'm, I'm seeing anyway, this increase in this idea, I love the term of fantasize talent that we're better than we are, because we're not getting the real feedback that we need to really fit into. a bigger picture.

    00;03;28;01 - 00;03;50;10
    Wayne Turmel
    Now, there's two things that you just said there which fascinate me. One is this is kind of the flip side of impostor syndrome. Imposter syndrome is I suck. They're going to find out any minute. I'm going to be busted. You know, I I'm I'm a big fat fraud. The flip side of this is I'm a genius. And the sooner they realize that, the better.

    00;03;50;10 - 00;04;12;04
    Wayne Turmel
    So that's kind of the first thing. And the second thing, which is super important, is that we get that sense of reality, right. Whether I'm as good as I am or I'm a horrible, awful human being. Based on feedback and without feedback, you're left with the voices in your head making that decision.

    00;04;12;06 - 00;04;31;13
    Jim Frawley
    Yeah, it's you know what? It's the flipped. I could say it's the flip side of imposter syndrome, but they're from they're on the same coin. They're both forms of insecurity. I would say, you know, you're not really imposter syndrome. You're not really tapping into reality of what other people are actually seeing. If you get this promotion, if you do this work, there's a reason for it.

    00;04;31;15 - 00;04;47;16
    Jim Frawley
    And we always have the self-doubt and everything. That's a healthy self-doubt. So when we're dealing with imposter syndrome, it's what are people actually seeing? There's a reason I'm here. Am I living up to those expectations? And there's this fear to drive us to kind of continually be better on the same side. This fantasized talent is you're not getting the feedback you need.

    00;04;47;16 - 00;05;04;27
    Jim Frawley
    You're not matching reality. You're not really seeing you think you're doing a great job, but you're not necessarily picking up what what really leverage you have. And so when we're working remotely and feedback comes in so many different forms, we want this feedback. We want to be told how we are, but we don't necessarily believe the words that we're told.

    00;05;05;00 - 00;05;24;14
    Jim Frawley
    And so when we think about feedback, you know, I could tell you ten different ways how great you're doing. We still don't necessarily believe it. And feedback comes in so many different forms with, social cues, verbal cues, the the way that people look at you, the little shrugs, the facial expressions that people make when you're in a room with other people.

    00;05;24;17 - 00;05;46;22
    Jim Frawley
    And so feedback comes in so many different forms that have been removed when working remotely. We're going through the screen now. We don't get the rest of the room as you're talking one on one with someone or in the hallway or something else. How's that idea really picked up? And so it is kind of the same coin in terms of how are we actually landing on other people to remain relevant as the workplace changes.

    00;05;46;24 - 00;05;57;22
    Wayne Turmel
    And of course, the challenge here is the same as it is with everything having to do with remote work, which is it's not like we were great at this when we were all together.

    00;05;57;24 - 00;06;18;10
    Jim Frawley
    No. Yeah, right. Most people, nobody likes to give negative feedback. Nobody likes to tell you how to to improve. it's the biggest complaint that people have in so many when I'm working one on one with coaches or with teams, I don't get the feedback that I need is something I always hear, but the first question I ask them is, how are you going to get your feedback?

    00;06;18;10 - 00;06;35;16
    Jim Frawley
    How are you asking for feedback? How are you giving context? Feedback is not just this extrinsic, external kind of give it to me. I'm waiting for you to come to me. You have to meet them halfway. It's not just, how am I doing? Oh, you're doing fine. It's. Hey, look, I want to become a chief marketing officer or a chief operating officer.

    00;06;35;16 - 00;06;51;15
    Jim Frawley
    Do you think I'm taking the right kind of steps? It's a very different type of question. We can say, oh, now that I know where you want to go, I can give you feedback relevant to where you actually want to go. So there is this, there is this accountability also on the individual to get the actual feedback that you want.

    00;06;51;15 - 00;07;08;18
    Jim Frawley
    And when we're not in person, you know, when you give a presentation to a senior group of people and you look around the room and you're just asking your boss later, how did that go? But you know how it went because you know how people are sitting and changing and leaning into your questions and asking questions and are really interested in what you're presenting.

    00;07;08;23 - 00;07;14;23
    Jim Frawley
    It's a very different, way to communicate that. We seem to have lost when we're working remotely.

    00;07;14;25 - 00;07;44;07
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. And it seems like I mean, everything is based on the question you ask, right? How did it go is a wide open question. It's you're really asking, did they like it or are they going to take action? Did I do my job? Did you know there are a whole bunch of micro questions inside that seemingly innocent enough question.

    00;07;44;10 - 00;08;03;08
    Jim Frawley
    And and one of the things I love to talk to groups about is do you understand the definition of a question? And most people don't. Most people cannot define what a question is and the way I define it. And I've pulled this from a couple of different places. It's a request for information where you legitimately do not know the answer.

    00;08;03;10 - 00;08;22;18
    Jim Frawley
    And so when you're requesting information where you say, how am I doing? It's not really giving the framework to get something that's really tangible for you to do, right? You're asking for something from a different person's perspective. You have to line them up and guide them to get the actual information that you want and ask a really meaningful question.

    00;08;22;20 - 00;08;36;06
    Jim Frawley
    that and ask ourselves the same types of questions where there's no judgment involved in terms of the way we ask our question. It has to be purely a request for answer where we are, a request for an answer where we do not know what that answer is going to be.

    00;08;36;08 - 00;09;01;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Wow. That is that is big. Because so often when we hear the answer, we're putting it through that filter of do I think I'm a genius or do I think I'm a big fat liar? And we're going to hear because human beings do this, right, it's rationalization 101. We hear what confirms our bias is to start with.

    00;09;01;29 - 00;09;19;01
    Jim Frawley
    And also what confirms our biases because we think we know. I mean, so many people will go and give a pitch, you know, for a new product and they come out and say, that went horribly. And then they find out that everybody loved it or vice versa. That was amazing. And then they do it. What we do, though, is there's so much we don't know, because we don't know everybody else's perspectives.

    00;09;19;01 - 00;09;38;01
    Jim Frawley
    And the way that they interpret things. I mean, the 5 million people listening to this podcast, some are going to say, this is really insightful. Other people are going to say this was a waste of time because they may have already known, based on their perspective or whatever it is. And so we have to lose judgment. We fill in the gaps where we don't know what other people's perspectives are.

    00;09;38;07 - 00;09;55;26
    Jim Frawley
    We fill in gaps. If you if you ask me, how am I doing? I'm filling in the gaps of what the context is. On why you're asking. If you want to give me feedback, you're filling in the gaps based on your perspective of where you are, where you wish to go, and everything else where we have to line people up to say, these are my expectations.

    00;09;55;26 - 00;10;02;14
    Jim Frawley
    These are my intentions. This is what I want so that we can kind of fill in those gaps for them so we can get the feedback that we actually need.

    00;10;02;17 - 00;10;20;18
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, I think the number one challenge with remote work is that there is so much white space around us, and in fact, you know, in lieu of real evidence, we tend to make up what fills that white space, whether that's positive or negative. Delusional.

    00;10;20;21 - 00;10;20;27
    Jim Frawley
    Yeah.

    00;10;20;28 - 00;10;29;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Whatever that is. Right. We're creating unless we're unless we're proven otherwise, we're going to fill that up with our own assumptions and biases.

    00;10;29;24 - 00;10;45;29
    Jim Frawley
    And and working from home. We're doing an amazing job, right? If you're sitting there digging a tunnel and you say, I'm working really hard and I'm working extra hours and I'm digging this tunnel, but then from left field, somebody says, what are you building a tunnel for? You need a bridge. You say, I'm completely out of, you know, I've done the completely wrong thing.

    00;10;45;29 - 00;11;08;24
    Jim Frawley
    I'm in the completely wrong place. And I've spoken to many people, have lost their jobs over the last few years because it's happening a lot. And I've heard this from multiple people. I had no idea how out of touch I really was. I had no idea how irrelevant I really was, how I was becoming so further away from the mark because they weren't asking questions, they weren't inserting themselves, they weren't getting in front of the right types of people.

    00;11;08;27 - 00;11;23;16
    Jim Frawley
    And then they wake up one day, there's a massive layoff, and they say, I was working so hard. I was doing crazy hours, I was doing good work. And so this part of the business is no longer relevant. We're cutting it out. You're gone. And so we have to ask these types of questions on remaining relevant. And that's really the hard part.

    00;11;23;16 - 00;11;30;21
    Jim Frawley
    When you're working remotely, how do you remain relevant and make people aware of you. And we have to do this by asking really good questions.

    00;11;30;23 - 00;11;40;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, I call those wily coyote moments where you're running and you're off the cliff and you're way off the cliff, and you don't know it until you look down. You do a.

    00;11;40;03 - 00;11;41;21
    Jim Frawley
    Couple blinks and you're stuck.

    00;11;41;21 - 00;12;12;18
    Wayne Turmel
    Exactly. I just everybody should be issued a little sign that says, yikes. okay, so there are two things that kind of came to mind, as you were saying, that, and one is from the leader's side and one is from the employee's side. So clearly we need the feedback. Let's start with the individual. Right. How do we consciously, intentionally get the feedback that we require.

    00;12;12;18 - 00;12;21;00
    Wayne Turmel
    And this applies no matter how or where you work. But it is particularly important in remote environment.

    00;12;21;02 - 00;12;41;12
    Jim Frawley
    So the first thing we have to recognize is that feedback is a social exercise. And so we have to surround ourselves with the people who can give us the good, honest feedback that we need. And this is a social exercise. It helps to be in person, but if it's not a person, then we can do it remotely. Obviously, your direct manager, you want to get it from them.

    00;12;41;18 - 00;13;01;21
    Jim Frawley
    You've got peers, you've got other allies within the organization. You've got people that you naturally trust. Ideally, you've had people throughout your career. Even if you're young in your career, you've got people who have had a major impact on you becoming the type of executive or worker that brings out the best in you. These are people that you want to surround yourself with completely.

    00;13;01;21 - 00;13;16;24
    Jim Frawley
    And when you surround yourself with these types of people, we then have to teach them how to give us feedback. We have to give them the context on where we wish to go, what we wish to do. What are you really asking for? Are you asking for feedback? Why? Because you want a promotion. Because you want to raise?

    00;13;16;27 - 00;13;35;14
    Jim Frawley
    Because you want to make sure you're doing a good job. Because you're afraid of being laid off. Whatever the context is driving your request for feedback, you need to have a solid answer on why. And one of the exercises you can do, it's almost like this, root cause analysis that you'll see in work is I always tell people S5 was, how am I doing?

    00;13;35;14 - 00;13;52;12
    Jim Frawley
    Why are you asking that question? Because I want to find out how I'm doing. Why? Because I want to see if I can get a promotion. Why? Because I want to. You know, and if you go through five questions, five whys, eventually you're going to get to some kind of root cause as to why you want this type of feedback.

    00;13;52;12 - 00;14;09;00
    Jim Frawley
    And what's driving your question. Then suddenly you have a context that you can give most people when we're communicating, we don't give context. And this goes to leaders or individuals. We don't give kind of, why did you do that? It's not a question. That's a judgment. You want to kind of cue them up so that you can cut them down.

    00;14;09;07 - 00;14;23;07
    Jim Frawley
    So how can you ask? Tell Me More allows you to get some context so that you can give the proper answer that that people are actually looking for. So we have to give context to why we're asking for feedback, so that people can give you the feedback that you really, really want.

    00;14;23;10 - 00;14;48;10
    Wayne Turmel
    You said something really important. I mean, setting context is critical, but you said something important that kind of got glided over, and I want to make sure that our listeners pay attention to that which is feedback comes from all kinds of places. When we hear feedback, we assume many people assume that that's my boss giving me performance evaluation feedback.

    00;14;48;15 - 00;15;06;08
    Wayne Turmel
    I'm doing a good job, I'm doing a bad job. But in fact, feedback takes all kinds of forms from all kinds of places. And very often we don't give feedback to our peers, to our colleagues, to whatever, because that's not our place, right?

    00;15;06;08 - 00;15;26;29
    Jim Frawley
    Yeah. We don't want to over summer bounds. We love to, pass judgment. We're thinking about how other people are doing, but we never want to tell them. but also, you know, depending on who your audience is for feedback and getting feedback, I mean, whether it's a senior person, your direct boss, people who report to you, people who are peers, the type of feedback can be different.

    00;15;26;29 - 00;15;43;20
    Jim Frawley
    It's not just, how am I doing, right? You're not going to ask a person reporting to you, I want to be a chief marketing officer. How do you think I'm doing? feedback comes in many different types of questions. So you can get these, you know, did we, tackle what we wanted to achieve in that meeting? How do you think that went?

    00;15;43;22 - 00;16;03;01
    Jim Frawley
    how would you have done it differently? What what do you think that meaning means for us today? And is there something that you saw in that meeting that maybe I didn't? All of this is feedback, that it's data that we can absorb to say, wow, this person saw something that I did not even think about, that I should probably incorporate into my presentation next time or into my meeting next time, or something like that.

    00;16;03;06 - 00;16;25;04
    Jim Frawley
    So the types of questions we ask run the full gamut, but we want honest feedback, and we need to lay the groundwork where people can be honest with us. And it's not this personal kind of, you were good or you were bad or you were this. Ask them for their interpretation of it, because then suddenly, if you give the context and ask for their interpretation, people will talk your ear off because they love to talk about the way they think about things.

    00;16;25;04 - 00;16;47;16
    Jim Frawley
    So why did they approach things and these different perspectives? That's feedback. That's the social kind of network that you want around you to give that valuable perspective, to challenge your belief systems, to challenge your assumptions. Every assumption you have is probably wrong. And so how do you take these assumptions and get the feedback? You need to challenge it so that you can be better in the next, the next round.

    00;16;47;19 - 00;17;10;20
    Wayne Turmel
    So as an individual, it's about create contact. When you're seeking feedback, create context for it. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but let's put the shoe on the other foot. I'm the manager, right? I'm the leader. Whatever. And I need to give feedback. What do I need to be aware of? Watch out for.

    00;17;10;23 - 00;17;29;08
    Jim Frawley
    First two things I would say. One is you have to create the expectation, right? If you want an expectation of brilliance, you need to say, I expect brilliance, and I'm going to cut every string so that you can be as brilliant as you are, but recognize when you don't hit this, I'm going to come out and I'm going to tell you that you didn't hit it right.

    00;17;29;08 - 00;17;55;02
    Jim Frawley
    So if you properly set it up at the beginning to say, these are my expectations, then it's easier to have the conversation later. That's one. But then secondly, you have to create an environment and someone call this psychological safety. Some would call it other things where your teaching people. If you're a manager, you want to teach your people to be asking legitimate questions of themselves because you want them to be asking themselves.

    00;17;55;02 - 00;18;16;27
    Jim Frawley
    These questions before you ask the question of them. And so after every meaning, they should be saying, what, could I have done better in that meeting? Or what went really well in that meeting? They should be asking this on a constant developmental, spin. And I have some clients who start every meeting now with three simple questions or five simple questions.

    00;18;16;27 - 00;18;45;05
    Jim Frawley
    What did you learn this week? what challenges are you working on this week? what's your biggest challenge this week? And how can anybody help? Right. And if you start facilitating these types of questions where people know that that's what's expected of them, no judgment, just pure questions. A real question has no judgment where your perspective is given, suddenly people are more open to answering these types of questions and asking more questions and saying, I have this idea, and how about this?

    00;18;45;12 - 00;18;50;19
    Jim Frawley
    So you're facilitating a type of discussion where people can ask really, really good questions.

    00;18;50;22 - 00;18;55;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Jim, we could go on for ages. This topic is fascinating.

    00;18;55;05 - 00;18;55;25
    Jim Frawley
    I love this stuff.

    00;18;55;27 - 00;19;23;04
    Wayne Turmel
    And we're geeks about this stuff. And we can talk about this for much longer than anybody wants to listen to it. But thank you so much. the whole concept of fantasized talent and, you know, what we believe about ourselves should be evidence based. And are we getting feedback that supports or doesn't is such a, uniquely phrased thing which we don't hear very often in this business.

    00;19;23;04 - 00;19;28;24
    Wayne Turmel
    So thank you for creating that easily stolen concept. we we like that.

    00;19;28;27 - 00;19;38;02
    Jim Frawley
    Yes. It's good. I'll give credit to Hogan, but I love it. I love the term right. Fantasize that it's so relevant right now. It's it's because we just don't know.

    00;19;38;04 - 00;20;06;20
    Wayne Turmel
    Indeed. ladies and gentlemen, if you have enjoyed this conversation, and I can't believe you didn't please, listen to other episodes, like, and subscribe if you want to take another look at this. If you want links to Jim's business bellwether, to Jim himself, all of that good stuff, check out long distance work life.com. That's where we keep our transcripts, past episodes, all of that good stuff.

    00;20;06;23 - 00;20;31;08
    Wayne Turmel
    If you have an idea for a show, if you have a comment, you know, if you have feedback for us, whether that's legit feedback or vicious personal attacks, which may be legit, we're good with it. reach out to either myself or Marissa Wayne at Kevin Eikenberry. Marissa at Kevin Eikenberry, find us on LinkedIn. We love to interact with our listeners.

    00;20;31;10 - 00;21;01;07
    Wayne Turmel
    Pet peeves, future topics, future guests. We want to hear from you. And if you want to learn more about delivering feedback, you can certainly talk to Jim. Not for nothing. At the Kevin Eikenberry Group, we have our longest leadership series that's available in-house for our clients or as an open enrollment program. If you want to learn the nuts and bolts of being a good leader in a remote and hybrid environment, check us out.

    00;21;01;09 - 00;21;14;29
    Wayne Turmel
    links are also on the show notes. Jim, thank you for being with us. We really appreciate your time, man. And for everybody else, thank you for listening. Don't let the weasels get you down. Hey.


    Featured Guest

    Jim Frawley

    Name: Jim Frawley

    Bio: Jim Frawley is the founder and CEO of Bellwether, an executive development firm based in New York. With extensive experience in executive communications in the financial industry, Jim specializes in preparing leaders for change. He is the author of "Fantasized Talent," focusing on the impact of overconfidence and the importance of feedback in the workplace.

    Timestamps

    0:00 Introduction
    1:00 Meet Jim Frawley
    2:00 What is Fantasized Talent?
    4:30 Fantasized Talent vs. Imposter Syndrome
    7:00 The Role of Feedback in Self-Perception
    9:15 Challenges of Receiving Feedback Remotely
    11:45 Strategies for Seeking Meaningful Feedback
    15:00 Tips for Leaders on Giving Feedback
    18:30 The Importance of Social Cues and Context
    21:00 Closing Thoughts

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Long-Distance Leadership Series

    If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

     Learn More
    Read More
    Supporting Mental Health in Remote Teams
    Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

    Supporting Mental Health in Remote Teams

    Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel dive deep into the relationship between mental health and remote work. They explore the roles organizations play in supporting the mental well-being of remote employees and discuss various strategies and initiatives that can help. From the benefits of remote work for individuals with social anxiety to the challenges of isolation and blurred work-life boundaries, this episode provides practical advice for both leaders and team members. Tune in to discover how to foster a healthier remote work environment.

    Key Points

  • The role of organizations in supporting the mental health of remote employees.
  • Examples of effective policies and initiatives, including health insurance and mental health apps.
  • The importance of regular check-ins and open communication in remote teams.
  • The dual nature of isolation in remote work: its benefits and drawbacks.
  • Managing stressors unique to remote work environments.
  • How remote work can serve as a safe haven for individuals with social anxiety.
  • The significance of self-awareness and checking in with oneself and others.

    • View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;06 - 00;00;18;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Welcome back to the long distance work life. We help you live, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Turmel.

    00;00;19;02 - 00;00;21;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, Marisa. How are you today?

    00;00;21;28 - 00;00;23;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I'm great. How are you?

    00;00;23;10 - 00;00;31;28
    Wayne Turmel
    I am, I am well today. Actually, I've thought about it and I've taken inventory. Yes, I am up and taking nourishment. And life is good.

    00;00;32;01 - 00;00;56;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, thank God for that. And speaking of taking inventories of ourselves, we are actually going to talk about how mental health and remote work kind of go together. so one of the things like kind of wanted to start with and, Wayne, I know you did some research for this episode before we even got here, but, what roles do organizations play in supporting mental health of remote employees?

    00;00;56;12 - 00;00;58;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Is that their job?

    00;00;58;19 - 00;01;22;04
    Wayne Turmel
    see, that is the great question, right? Is what do employers owe their employees? What do their employees owe their employers? And in a strictly capitalist labor is services in exchange for money world. Technically, employers don't owe their employees much.

    00;01;22;06 - 00;01;27;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? Which I'm sure will thrilled the people that are listening to. Well, right now.

    00;01;27;13 - 00;01;54;03
    Wayne Turmel
    There is a much larger conversation to be had about what do we owe each other? Right? Is there a social contract? But to be purely technical, if we're just looking at the letter of the law, your employer doesn't owe you squat. Now, is it in the employer's best interest? Right. You have employees who can function at a high level and do good work and be productive.

    00;01;54;03 - 00;02;17;19
    Wayne Turmel
    And the answer is yes. And so somewhere, like so much in this world, there is a balance where they say you know, we really need to support our employees, partly because we're not complete ogres, but also because it helps people get the work done. And that's what we're paying them for. That's so that an imbalance is always there.

    00;02;17;19 - 00;02;38;23
    Wayne Turmel
    And some organizations take it very seriously. They offer lots of, benefits, support, mental health resources, which statistically is easy and inexpensive for them to do because most people do not take advantage of them.

    00;02;38;25 - 00;02;46;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. So have you seen some examples or of policies or initiatives that companies have done that have made this effective?

    00;02;46;10 - 00;02;55;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Sure. Well, here in America, it usually takes the form of, health insurance. That includes mental health.

    00;02;55;18 - 00;02;58;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Support, which is huge by itself.

    00;02;58;07 - 00;03;28;17
    Wayne Turmel
    Which is not to be sneezed. That, the big thing is that there are services out there which companies partner with and they say, hey, you know, as part of your employment package, you have access to X amount of counseling through this particular service, or you can get this particular package of resources and very often and those tend to be much larger companies.

    00;03;28;20 - 00;03;57;18
    Wayne Turmel
    but they're there and it's important I mean I don't need to say this because if you listen to us for 30s, you understand that we are not mental health professionals and understand, dear listener, that we are speaking as lay people and people who care about you. and we are not doctors, so, you know, that needs to be said.

    00;03;57;20 - 00;04;04;07
    Wayne Turmel
    everything we say needs to be examined and run through that filter.

    00;04;04;10 - 00;04;27;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and you were talking about different programs and things that, some companies do. One of the other things that I've seen some companies mention, or people mentioning that their companies are doing, would even be things like having a year long access to the calm app or the headspace app as like this kind of meditation can chill out for a second kind of thing.

    00;04;27;08 - 00;04;36;10
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. And again, that gets done on an individual company and an individual team kind of basis.

    00;04;36;13 - 00;04;37;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;04;38;00 - 00;05;16;08
    Wayne Turmel
    you know, and there are things managers are doing. But one of the things that I think we need to to bear in mind is that there are benefits, there are mental health benefits to remote work, and there are some challenges. And leaders are often really uncomfortable because they aren't experts, either they aren't psychiatrists or psychologists, and they very often are dealing with their own feelings, thoughts, ideas.

    00;05;16;11 - 00;05;48;14
    Wayne Turmel
    And so it is very difficult for them unless there is a really good communication process and unless we check in with each other on a regular basis, and pick up on what's happening, it's really easy for things, especially in a remote environment, for things to go unnoticed. I mean, if I'm in the office and Alice breaks down sobbing over her keyboard.

    00;05;48;16 - 00;05;49;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;05;49;12 - 00;05;54;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. It's pretty easy for me to go, oh, there's a problem here.

    00;05;54;07 - 00;05;55;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    All right. Alice, are you okay?

    00;05;55;28 - 00;06;17;14
    Wayne Turmel
    And we're not being flippant about this. I mean, we see this every day in the workplace. Everybody is dealing with their own stuff. if Alice can hold it together for the 20 minutes of a zoom call, I have no idea if she's slumped over her keyboard when the camera's off.

    00;06;17;17 - 00;06;32;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. Or to that point, too, because, you know, some people will do zoom meetings with cameras off to begin with. And if you haven't seen Joe in three weeks because he never turned his camera on, like you may have no idea that he's going through something.

    00;06;32;06 - 00;06;44;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. So I, I think it's important that we look at, you know, what are some of the positive aspect. How does this positively affect mental health and how does it not.

    00;06;44;02 - 00;07;07;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. So I know we've talked about some of these things before. So things like isolation or having blurred boundaries between, you know, when you're working and when you're home. but one of the other things is like, you know, obviously we have a bunch of stressors. So what are some stressors for remote workers that you've noticed and how can they be effectively managed?

    00;07;07;02 - 00;07;42;21
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, one of the big stressors for remote workers is that they are very often torn. I mean, we saw this during Covid. This became blatantly aware, during Covid where people were dealing with death and illness and, you know, those types of things that were going on in the background of, oh, and by the, you know, I need to get my kids schooled and I need to look after my parents, and I need and I don't feel that good myself.

    00;07;42;25 - 00;08;18;04
    Wayne Turmel
    And oh, by the way, I need to keep my job. And so I need to put on a good face or they'll make me go back into the office right? Right. And and so that split loyalty for some people, it's very easy. They can compartmentalize very well. Again, not everybody can of course. Right. And to say, oh, we gave you the same chance we give everybody else may well be true and it may save your conscience.

    00;08;18;06 - 00;08;40;22
    Wayne Turmel
    I'm not entirely sure it's the best way to look at it. for managers and leaders out there. I know that I myself and I've told a similar story to this before. I used to kind of judge everybody's actions and effectiveness and motives by what was going on with me.

    00;08;40;25 - 00;08;42;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Don't we all?

    00;08;42;03 - 00;08;42;23
    Wayne Turmel
    Well.

    00;08;42;25 - 00;08;44;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    At least to start, until we know.

    00;08;44;20 - 00;09;09;25
    Wayne Turmel
    That that self-awareness is really, really important, right? I remember very early in my career, I was talking to my boss's wife, who happened to be part of the business, and she was very judgmental. Somebody was having what was clearly a mental health episode, although we didn't call it that at the time. Right. and she goes, well, I wish I had time for that.

    00;09;09;28 - 00;09;19;13
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, I was busy raising a child and running a business, and bye bye bye bye bye. And I just didn't have time to whine and feel sorry for myself, was how she phrased it.

    00;09;19;16 - 00;09;22;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Wow, she sounds delightful.

    00;09;22;08 - 00;09;34;29
    Wayne Turmel
    And you know what she is? She is a lovely person, but she white knuckled her way through most of the crises in her life. And if she can do it, why can't everybody else?

    00;09;35;01 - 00;09;36;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And but I just not like that.

    00;09;36;25 - 00;10;03;08
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, I came across an analogy and it was during the Northridge earthquake. Okay. We lived in Southern California in in Northridge, in the center of the quake zone. And the ground, if you can picture taking a carpet and kind of flipping one end of it and it rolls, that's what the ground did. And as a result, the house, there were three houses next to each other.

    00;10;03;08 - 00;10;09;03
    Wayne Turmel
    We were in the middle. The house on one side was almost completely destroyed.

    00;10;09;06 - 00;10;10;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Wow.

    00;10;10;10 - 00;10;20;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Our house suffered damage but was functional and we could live in it and all that good stuff. And the house next to us got almost nothing.

    00;10;20;26 - 00;10;21;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Wow.

    00;10;21;29 - 00;10;33;22
    Wayne Turmel
    All three houses were the same builder. They were built at the same time. They had the same floor or plan and got hit by the same earthquake.

    00;10;33;25 - 00;10;35;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    With three different outcomes.

    00;10;35;20 - 00;10;41;00
    Wayne Turmel
    And yet had completely different results.

    00;10;41;02 - 00;10;41;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;10;42;01 - 00;11;13;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Three different outcomes. And that analogy has stuck with me when we're talking about this. And so, you know, you take something like isolation. for one person, isolation might be the best thing I can get my work done. My work requires focus. And being able to work and maybe listening to my body a little bit. So sometimes a day work better than others, and I don't get bothered by people like that.

    00;11;14;00 - 00;11;42;19
    Wayne Turmel
    So isolation, or at least being more alone makes sense. And that works for me. For other people, it exacerbates what other problems they have. Again, during Covid and not making light of anything. The number of teens harming themselves during Covid during the the school shutdown here in Clark County, double.

    00;11;42;21 - 00;11;45;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, I'm not surprised.

    00;11;45;26 - 00;12;08;01
    Wayne Turmel
    Well and so isolation is really tough. And as a leader how do you manage that with your team. Right. Is somebody quiet because they're quiet. Are they quiet because there's something else going on. And so check ins and I don't mean you have to put them on a couch and ask deep, you know.

    00;12;08;02 - 00;12;08;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;12;08;21 - 00;12;16;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Probing questions about your psyche. but legitimately checking it.

    00;12;16;14 - 00;12;20;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely. And that's why one on one so. Right.

    00;12;21;01 - 00;12;23;16
    Wayne Turmel
    It's it's really, really critical.

    00;12;23;18 - 00;12;38;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Changing direction directions a little bit and going into some of the benefits, that remote work can have with mental health. So can you discuss how remote work might actually act as like a safe haven for individuals with social anxiety?

    00;12;38;10 - 00;13;12;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. Exactly. Right. It's, you know, the number of people who. Experience social anxiety is higher than we've ever thought, because people have always just kind of white knuckled their way through it. What remote work has allowed people to do is not have to deal with some of those stressors, that we have to work with. You know, commutes are horribly stressful.

    00;13;12;09 - 00;13;54;21
    Wayne Turmel
    By the time you get to the office, you're already freaked out. we are experiencing an era where, people are afraid to speak up for whatever reasons. social tensions on things like politics and what's going on in the world and all that stuff is making the workplace a very stressful environment. And for those who are, well, bullying, for lack of a better word, which sounds very grad school but goes on in the workplace all the time, is actually on absolutely.

    00;13;54;24 - 00;14;32;04
    Wayne Turmel
    What we've experienced is that remote work removes some of that. And I'll give you an example. we're hearing that and this is all anecdotal, but it's pretty widely documented that people who traditionally don't speak up. Right, whether because they are socially anxious, whether because there's a power imbalance, whatever that is, are more comfortable speaking up because I don't have to sit in a conference room with Bob staring daggers at me if I disagree with his idea.

    00;14;32;11 - 00;14;37;20
    Wayne Turmel
    And oh, by the way, Bob is going to follow me all the way back to my desk, haranguing me for it.

    00;14;37;22 - 00;14;59;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? Yeah. Well, and to give you another perspective too, because like, I mean, I, I have a fair amount of social anxiety. I am an anxious person by nature. This will shock no one who actually knows me. but for me, I'm not necessarily like, obviously I've worked on our team for ten years. I trust the team members.

    00;14;59;23 - 00;15;21;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I trust our coworkers. I know that it's not a, you know, waves, not staring daggers at me across the room. Like, don't you dare say anything. Like, that's not happening. But for me, I'm somebody that I want to work so hard not to interrupt a conversation. So if we're all at a conference table and everybody's talking, or even during a team meeting on the web, everybody's talking all at once.

    00;15;21;19 - 00;15;38;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I have something to say. But there's no breath for me to do it. And if there's no breath, I'll never say it. But now I can open up a chat window and I can post it in there, and somebody might be able to see it and then go, oh, hey, she just said this and it can get added to the conversation.

    00;15;38;17 - 00;15;44;10
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And then maybe that gives me an opportunity to go off mute and say something else.

    00;15;44;12 - 00;16;27;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. Which brings us to the power of you're absolutely right. The chat feature in meetings is frequently, underutilized and underappreciated. It allows those who maybe aren't as comfortable speaking up or can't find a good time. Like me says, making air quotes to to contribute allows them to do that. There is also the asynchronous component of things like teams and chat and slack, where you don't have to have that brilliant idea right there in the middle of the conversation.

    00;16;27;06 - 00;17;02;16
    Wayne Turmel
    You have time to think about it. You can actually use AI to. There are so many tools now that you can say, hey, I want you using Grammarly, for example. Yeah. you know, I want this to sound friendly or I want this to sound professional or whatever. You can write what you're doing and it will adjust the tone for you till it sounds like you think it should sound so that you are not lashing out anymore.

    00;17;02;19 - 00;17;38;01
    Wayne Turmel
    Right? This is this is actually an ability to communicate more effectively, not display your anxiety. not add to anyone else's. Because very often, and those of us who tend to make jokes, those of us who tend to be, a little more assertive than others frequently add to other people's burdens without meaning to write. you didn't have to agree that quickly.

    00;17;38;04 - 00;17;39;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I mean.

    00;17;39;24 - 00;17;41;09
    Wayne Turmel
    And it's true.

    00;17;41;12 - 00;17;43;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;17;43;22 - 00;18;03;09
    Wayne Turmel
    So, you know, and we could go on for a long time about this, but I think that the key here is that as individuals, we need to kind of take inventory periodically. How am I doing.

    00;18;03;12 - 00;18;04;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. Right.

    00;18;04;20 - 00;18;08;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Why am I doing that way? Why am I doing that.

    00;18;08;02 - 00;18;11;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, right. Is it something on my end or. It's something.

    00;18;11;11 - 00;18;46;28
    Wayne Turmel
    Trivial? Is it something identifiable that I can deal with or that I need help dealing with? Is it a more general sense of anxiety or fear or whatever it is? It starts there, right? As leaders, are we checking in even if we don't have high priced psychological resources and mental health benefits and all of that stuff? We can check in and say, how are you doing?

    00;18;47;00 - 00;18;49;16
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, it's as simple as that.

    00;18;49;18 - 00;19;12;20
    Wayne Turmel
    It's really important and that we listen to the answer without judgment. I, I, I have worked from home for most of my career, pretty much full time, almost 20 years, and I have had times when I'm doing great and times when I'm not doing so great.

    00;19;12;23 - 00;19;16;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, me too. And I've done half that time.

    00;19;16;02 - 00;19;43;21
    Wayne Turmel
    And it takes courage. And that's a word that gets thrown around a lot. But it takes courage to raise your hand and say, hey, this is not working for me. I mean, very recently I said to Kevin, I need to stop doing this. Yeah. Certain things because this is not working. Right. There are projects that I was working on.

    00;19;43;29 - 00;20;03;19
    Wayne Turmel
    I can't do that right now. I am not, and I'm a grown man who has done this a lot. And it's, you know, but I was completely overwhelmed and I wasn't I wasn't moral in terms of what's on my plate. It wasn't worse than anybody else has. You have a busier agenda than I do most days.

    00;20;03;21 - 00;20;20;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    But to be honest, the thing, you know what? Everybody's perspective is going to be a little different, like what your busy is and what my business might look different, what I can handle versus what you can handle might look different. And that's okay. That doesn't mean that one of us is better or not than the other person.

    00;20;20;28 - 00;20;54;21
    Wayne Turmel
    And that's the thing is the removal of judgment. We have to stop judging ourselves and be observant of what's happening and why it's happening, and be as honest with ourselves as we can. When others reach out to us, we need to be honest to them. You don't need to share everything right? But understand that they're coming from a place of they want to help and it may be that remote work is not great for you.

    00;20;54;23 - 00;21;11;13
    Wayne Turmel
    It may be that being in the office every day and fighting the commute and dealing with the crowds and all that stuff, maybe you need to back off a little bit and think about, maybe a more flexible work schedule.

    00;21;11;16 - 00;21;14;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    yeah, maybe a hybrid is the thing that works the best for you.

    00;21;14;11 - 00;21;37;06
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, nothing is one size fits all. But if we leave you with nothing else in this session, I think we need to recognize that how we work is a part of our life. It is not all of our life. If it is, you need to reexamine some things.

    00;21;37;08 - 00;21;37;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;21;38;01 - 00;22;10;17
    Wayne Turmel
    how and why and what we do as work is part of our life, and you can't just portion it off from everything else. Absolutely. And good leaders understand that. Good organizations consider that when they're looking at the the health and, state of their employees. And as individuals, we need to think about that as well. And so there are things like apps that can help us be more mindful.

    00;22;10;24 - 00;22;42;15
    Wayne Turmel
    There are things like meditation. There are things like, getting off your chair and going to that office function even when you don't want to. If that's going to help get you out of whatever you're in. so I hope that was helpful for folks. The big thing that I want people to remember is, whatever it is, it's not just you.

    00;22;42;18 - 00;23;04;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Amen to that. Wayne. Thank you so much for this episode. this was really great conversation. I really hope that it's helpful to our listeners and listeners. Thank you so much for listening to the Long Distance work life. Our show notes, transcripts, and other resources. Make sure to visit Long Distance Work life.com if you haven't yet, subscribe to the show so you don't miss any future episodes.

    00;23;04;28 - 00;23;19;29
    Marisa Eikenberry
    While you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you like about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know you listen to this episode, or even suggest a topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode. We'd love to hear from you!

    00;23;20;02 - 00;23;46;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And before we sign off, I want to tell you about our long distance Leadership series at Kevineikenberry.com/ldls. Whether you're a seasoned leader or stepping into a remote leadership role for the first time, this series offers practical tools and expert advice to help you succeed. It's great for individuals or your whole leadership team. Again, that's Kevineikenberry.com/ldls. Let's start strengthening your remote leadership skills today.

    00;23;46;04 - 00;23;54;03
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Thank you so much for joining us. And as Wayne likes to say don't let the weasels get you down.

    00;23;54;06 - 00;23;58;20



    00;23;58;22 - 00;23;59;13




    Timestamps

    0:00 Introduction
    1:00 The Role of Organizations in Mental Health
    3:40 Examples of Effective Mental Health Policies
    6:30 Benefits and Challenges of Isolation
    8:00 Managing Stressors in Remote Work
    11:15 Remote Work as a Safe Haven for Social Anxiety
    14:30 Importance of Self-Awareness and Check-Ins
    17:45 Practical Tips for Leaders
    20:30 Closing Thoughts

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Long-Distance Leadership Series

    If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

     Learn More
    Read More
    Guests, Leadership, Working Remotely

    The 12-Week MBA: A New Approach to Remote Leadership Training with Nathan Kracklauer

    Wayne Turmel chats with Nathan Kracklauer, the Chief Research Officer at Abilitie, about the innovative 12-Week MBA program. Discover how this experiential learning approach is transforming remote leadership training and providing valuable skills for managers in hybrid and remote work environments. Nathan shares his insights on the importance of building trust, learning in cohorts, and the unique challenges faced by remote leaders. Tune in to learn how you can elevate your management skills without stepping away from your career.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Explore Flexible Learning Options: Consider enrolling in innovative programs like the 12-Week MBA to gain essential leadership skills without the time and financial burden of traditional MBAs.
    2. Focus on Building Trust in Remote Teams: Prioritize developing trust and effective communication within your remote or hybrid teams to enhance collaboration and productivity.
    3. Leverage Peer Learning: Engage in cohort-based learning to benefit from the diverse perspectives and motivation that comes from studying with peers.
    4. Seek Credible Certification: Ensure that any non-traditional learning program you undertake provides credible certification or evidence of completion to bolster your resume and professional credibility.
    5. Adapt to Global Learning Trends: Stay open to new and flexible learning methods that are being increasingly accepted worldwide, making education more accessible and relevant to your career goals.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;07;26 - 00;00;37;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Long Distance Worklife for podcast dedicated to remote hybrid working, thriving, surviving wherever you happen to be trying to get your work done. My name is Wayne Turmel. I am super excited to be here today. This is a sans-Marisa episode, which means we have a very, learned, exciting, cool guest that I'm excited for you to see.

    00;00;37;27 - 00;00;50;01
    Wayne Turmel
    And we're going to bring him in right now. Nathan Kracklauer who is in Germany somewhere? welcome to the long-distance worklife.

    00;00;50;04 - 00;00;52;28
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Yeah. Thank you. Wayne, it's a pleasure being here.

    00;00;53;00 - 00;00;56;13
    Wayne Turmel
    So who are you and why do we care?

    00;00;56;15 - 00;01;22;11
    Nathan Kracklauer
    well, I am the chief research officer of a company called ability. And ability does management leadership training. through a methodology called experiential learning and specifically through business simulations. And we have a, a solution that is what we call a mini MBA. We call it the 12 week MBA, about which I have just written a book along with our CEO.

    00;01;22;13 - 00;01;44;02
    Nathan Kracklauer
    And, it's an online learning experience, which I think is what many of your listeners will be interested in to see, you know, what are the approaches you can take to learning, to, how to learn about management related topics online, but also maybe what management related topics are different, when you're working online?

    00;01;44;04 - 00;02;12;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, yeah. I mean, let's let's start with the idea of the kind of do it yourself structured finding stuff where you can way of educating yourself. a lot of our listeners know I don't have a formal college degree, certainly not an MBA. And yet here I am, right. so I am passionate about self-development and learning and taking it on yourself.

    00;02;12;02 - 00;02;27;19
    Wayne Turmel
    How does the kind of traditional MBA experience, but up against remote and hybrid work and the way that we're working now in whatever part of the 21st century this is?

    00;02;27;22 - 00;02;52;26
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Yeah, I mean, that's I think that's one of the core questions, I think for many years, just having, the traditional MBA to work with as an option has limited very many people from gaining the kinds of management, not experienced, but the access to the skills, the knowledge and the insights and the mindsets, even though they would, like you said for yourself, have ample opportunities to have to use them in the real world that they were facing.

    00;02;52;26 - 00;03;16;11
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Right. And the challenge, I guess, of the traditional MBA is it makes you take off, you know, 1 to 2 years out of the workforce. And that is a huge cost, both personal. because, you know, that's two years out of your life. and it's a financial as well, but it's also the opportunity of cost of not continuing to develop your personal network in a, in an industry and in a company.

    00;03;16;11 - 00;03;37;26
    Nathan Kracklauer
    It's you're not developing your knowledge of that industry and your skills specific to that industry in that company. And so for many people, it hasn't really been been an option or an attractive option. and yet we all know that when you make that transition from being an individual contributor to being a manager, you need some kind of support.

    00;03;37;28 - 00;03;41;23
    Nathan Kracklauer
    it's an entirely different universe. On the other side of that threshold.

    00;03;41;25 - 00;04;01;19
    Wayne Turmel
    So what are the things? What are the things specifically? call them topics or subject matters. Just because we got to call them something. Where are the areas of learning that, particularly when it comes to remote work, people are most in need of.

    00;04;01;22 - 00;04;29;02
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Yeah. So, in our program, we focus on two areas. And with respect to remote learning and the challenge, excuse me, the remote working and the challenges thereof. it's really the second topic that is, I think, the one that stands in the, in our focus, which is how we work with people, and in truth, few of our formal, learning opportunities, certainly throughout, school and throughout college and even throughout the MBA, they don't focus enough on that.

    00;04;29;02 - 00;04;51;19
    Nathan Kracklauer
    And yet, what we need to know about how to work alongside others and through others as a manager, is all the more urgent in that remote setting? and I think the first principle, again, in any kind of relationship, in any kind of working relationship, is the principle of working in a trusting relationship, finding, trust.

    00;04;51;19 - 00;05;19;00
    Nathan Kracklauer
    But it's all the more important online, working remotely, as I have experienced myself. because there are so few opportunities to do the kinds of care and feeding of relationships that sort of are natural and built into how we, have been sort of built to work together over millennia, and over our entire evolutionary history.

    00;05;19;00 - 00;05;27;14
    Nathan Kracklauer
    So we're kind of separated from each other when we work remotely. And a lot of the ways that we build trust are just simply not there. So we have to find ways to replicate them online.

    00;05;27;17 - 00;05;54;01
    Wayne Turmel
    So one of the things that I have certainly dealt with in my own career, and the people who take advantage of your program or those just building their own right, is so many of us have done is at least if you go to Wharton or even University of Phenix or something, where there is a name that says, yes, you have completed this.

    00;05;54;03 - 00;06;25;18
    Wayne Turmel
    If you're going to develop yourself, how do you do that in a way that is credible to the people who are going to care, right. People in your organization who promote you, who want to know that you've actually studied this stuff, you can't just say, oh yeah, I read all these book and took all these online courses. How do you actually build a credible resume with the outside world when you're doing it piecemeal, bit by bit, on your own?

    00;06;25;20 - 00;06;56;16
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Yeah, that is truly the challenge. And, I think from an employer perspective, it's quite interesting. I see you and I were talking about this, just the other day about his experience, that he had recently speaking to somebody on the employer's side who also questioned whether the amount of time and money you spent on an MBA, for those who have done that actually bodes well for your decision making prowess and your financial investment making prowess in the real world, so that could actually go in the opposite direction.

    00;06;56;16 - 00;07;21;03
    Nathan Kracklauer
    But I think what employers do value is the fact that you are making those efforts, because not everybody does. So if you can say, look, I actually went to this course and it was concluded, now we have to, of course, providers like ourselves have to provide something that says, yes, it was completed according to the completion criteria we have so that you can legitimately post that on your LinkedIn resume, your LinkedIn profile, or on your resume.

    00;07;21;06 - 00;07;56;25
    Nathan Kracklauer
    but, the signal that you are doing that, that you are spending money, but more importantly, your time to develop yourself indicates something to employers. And that may actually be, appreciated if it's at smaller and incremental skills and in specific targeted areas than if it's this general, traditional two year MBA that's highly expensive, and the content might not be as focused on the specific tasks that you are trying to that you're currently doing, or that you're trying to, apply for in your next job in the next step up.

    00;07;56;27 - 00;08;30;11
    Wayne Turmel
    Which I think for those listening kind of raises an important point. And while I'm not, you know, I don't encourage busy work and kind of covering your butt with tons of paperwork you need evidence of having done these things, even if it's just a certificate from the provider or something to say that you have completed this program or gotten this grade on the program or however it works, you got to have that evidence.

    00;08;30;14 - 00;08;58;05
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Yeah, exactly. And and one of the ways that, I mean, we're, experimenting with this is I think many programs are, something we introduced, just in the last cohort that we, we had for our program, was to have the option to have closing interviews, so to speak, with some of our facilitators. And, so our faculty and, what that allowed the participants to do was, share.

    00;08;58;07 - 00;09;21;25
    Nathan Kracklauer
    I mean, it wasn't it wasn't like an oral examination, but they could they had some questions that they could prepare and then have a conversation. Really. with the faculty member that went back and forth. So how does this apply to you in this concept that you talked about? How does this apply to your particular position? And, you know, how could it maybe how could it apply in your next position in having more of a, a conversation around some of the core topics?

    00;09;21;25 - 00;09;44;12
    Nathan Kracklauer
    But what that also allowed for is the participant to feel quite confident that they had truly understood the concepts it was had that character of an examination without feeling like it to, you know, provide validation of the concepts. And what it then allowed us to do is to say, you know what? As part of that, you know, if you apply to your job, will will also, you know, write a recommendation for you on that basis.

    00;09;44;12 - 00;10;00;25
    Nathan Kracklauer
    So there are ways, I think, that these online programs like ours are experimenting with to provide exactly that sort of evidence in ways that are also even relevant, maybe more relevant than just having a stamp of approval on on a resume or a badge on a, on a LinkedIn charter.

    00;10;00;27 - 00;10;29;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. You said something earlier that I want to get back to, which is the notion of learning in cohorts. there's kind of this notion that especially if you are a remote worker and, you know, you're out in the provinces somewhere, wherever you happen to be, that you're kind of on your own to do this. certainly a lot of what I did back in the day was me and a book and a course and an online thing.

    00;10;29;18 - 00;10;35;10
    Wayne Turmel
    But talk to me about learning in cohorts and what that means.

    00;10;35;12 - 00;10;53;19
    Nathan Kracklauer
    right. Yeah. So, I think that's new terminology that is coming along, but I what it gets to is that learning is inherently also a social activity. And when you think about it, what we get out of our peers is not just that we can learn from each other, although that's a big part of it. Right?

    00;10;53;19 - 00;11;11;25
    Nathan Kracklauer
    We'll have complementary experiences. but if we could put together with a group of other peers and have, avenues for interacting with each other, we will teach each other things. but we'll also be using each other as benchmarks, really? We'll say, I'm finding this very hard if we if we do that on our own.

    00;11;11;25 - 00;11;36;25
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Right. If we're all in our lonesome, reading a book we don't know is the problem with me. Or is this book maybe not written well, or is this concept not one that's even relevant to me? We just don't know these things. If you go into a group of peers and you find I'm having a hard time with this, but then I discover everybody else is too, that actually is a very relieving experience, that can help us be motivated to actually dive a little bit deeper and put in the extra effort.

    00;11;36;27 - 00;11;59;08
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Or conversely, we find that everybody else already understands it, then that might raise some anxiety, but that also means it's time for us to up our game, because everybody else gets this concept. I better get it too. So there are many different ways that we reinforce each other's motivation and learning when we work together in groups or cohorts, as is the fashionable word now.

    00;11;59;10 - 00;12;35;29
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, I mean, there is something to be said for learning with other people. And, you know, we spend a lot of time when we work remotely and we work in our own heads going, maybe it's just me and this, this notion that it's yeah, it's probably not. Yeah, right. And where it is, you clearly you need to step up your game, but where you realize, oh, it's not just me or a lot of times I'll find that a colleague or somebody else has a way of explaining it that maybe is clearer than what the instructor is telling me.

    00;12;36;02 - 00;13;11;01
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, right. It's a way of picking it up that way. So what's the balance of alone work? And I know we're talking about your program in particular, and there are other companies out there, you know, no big shock. There are other companies doing kind of the same thing. And certainly you can self-organize a lot of stuff. But, you know, just in your, company's experience, what's the balance of head down alone work versus synchronous with other people versus asynchronous with other people?

    00;13;11;04 - 00;13;35;15
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Yeah. I yeah, trying to run the numbers in my head now, but I think it's going to be on the scale of two thirds, three quarters, actually in synchronous activities for us. And I think that's really important, especially when it's online. Now, the reason that we can do that is that our particular methodology, I mean, one way to do this right would be, hey, you come to a synchronous event where there's an instructor and maybe they're able to get the discussion going on a zoom call with breakouts.

    00;13;35;15 - 00;13;56;15
    Nathan Kracklauer
    And there's some of that too. but then that the, the classic way of doing this is then you go and you work on something on your own, an exercise or problem set or whatever, whatever it is, you maybe write a little paper delivery. That's sort of the classic way of doing things where a lot of the application is what you do on your own, and then the information gathering is what you do in the classroom.

    00;13;56;22 - 00;14;26;15
    Nathan Kracklauer
    What we do is we have these business simulations that are platforms are actually applying the concepts directly, and we're in one synchronous experience, along with our colleagues and with a faculty member going through cycles of experiencing the actual content by making decisions, running a virtual business along with their colleagues, and then going back and cycling back into a discussion with the instructor about, okay, what does this mean?

    00;14;26;20 - 00;14;54;27
    Nathan Kracklauer
    What does this mean in the real world? Here's some new tips and ideas, new concepts, maybe on business acumen. maybe on on, how to build trust, maybe on how to work together in teams. And now with those new inputs, let's go back into the next cycle and start applying them. So in that way, what we have is a, experience that is fundamentally built on the synchronous and where the, the, asynchronous components and the self-study components are somewhat ancillary to that.

    00;14;54;29 - 00;15;26;12
    Wayne Turmel
    One of the things that I find fascinating is, and the more I do this podcast, the more I realize, you know, I'm a Canadian living in the States, talking to people wherever. And, and and that has just boggled my brain for years, right. That the world is that small. you are living in Germany right now. How does the rest of the world look at these kind of incremental, less formal ways of learning?

    00;15;26;12 - 00;15;38;07
    Wayne Turmel
    Do German companies offer more or less credibility to those? Are they still kind of hidebound to the traditional university approach? What's the rest of the world doing about this?

    00;15;38;10 - 00;16;06;08
    Nathan Kracklauer
    It's yeah, it's really, of course, quite complicated because first of all, I don't know most of the rest of the world. I do know Europe fairly well. And there's divides north, south, east, west and all that. that make that, answer quite complex to answer, just for example, I think you find, that in, in traditionally the Latin based cultures of southern Europe, the role of the teacher, the instructor is quite different.

    00;16;06;10 - 00;16;30;29
    Nathan Kracklauer
    the instructor, the expectation coming from learners is that that person be, more of an authority figure, whereas in northern Europe you would now have. No, no, we're all peers here, including the faculty member. And so that drives a whole different I mean, that's part of this, but, that's just one of the major phenomena that overlays the cultural differences.

    00;16;30;29 - 00;17;10;07
    Nathan Kracklauer
    That alone makes up for quite significant differences, I would say, between any given area in Europe and the US. And I know it's quite there are many similar dynamics in play also, all around the world. I've worked quite a bit in Asia. Also, I think in terms of the acceptance and credibility of these things, I do think the US, is moving somewhat more quickly on that, that, the idea of do it yourself and, less formal training and alternatives to, to traditional methods, I think there's more of a willingness to pioneer that, in the US and I don't mean pioneered from the state of, point of

    00;17;10;07 - 00;17;34;17
    Nathan Kracklauer
    view of the provider, but pioneer it as actual user thereof, as somebody willing to try these things out. by and large, I think the acceptance is somewhat higher in the US, but at the same time, I want to qualify with that, with saying that many of the, areas around the world, that have not had access to, let's say, the traditional forms of education are also now quite willing to pioneer that and are hungry for it.

    00;17;34;19 - 00;18;05;19
    Nathan Kracklauer
    so I have personally not had many opportunities to travel to Africa, for instance. But I know that we have actually many participants in our open enrollment programs coming from Africa through partnerships, in, in that broad region, very large region, continent, and that, actually are quite interested in using these alternatives because they are more accessible in, in time, accessible in terms of the financial resources required and so on.

    00;18;05;21 - 00;18;39;01
    Wayne Turmel
    While I've got about ten more questions that I want to ask and not nearly enough time. Nathan Kracklauer from ability. If you are interested in learning more about their programs, if you're interested in learning more about Nathan, we will have all of those links and other good stuff on our website. Long distance work life.com, along with a transcript of this, conversation so that if you missed some of the good stuff that we talked about or didn't get the notes right, they are there for you.

    00;18;39;04 - 00;18;46;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Nathan, thank you so much for being with us, man. I really appreciate your time today. It's been a good conversation.

    00;18;46;02 - 00;18;50;22
    Nathan Kracklauer
    Thank you. And it has been and I look forward to speaking with you again.

    00;18;50;24 - 00;19;22;08
    Wayne Turmel
    Alrighty. So we are wrapping it up. as I say, you can always find, transcripts, links, information on this or any of our conversations at Long Distance Work life.com. I would also urge you, if you are interested in learning more about leading remote hybrid teams. Nathan mentioned public programs. Certainly ability has public programs that anyone in the world can register for, as do we.

    00;19;22;08 - 00;19;51;18
    Wayne Turmel
    The long distance leadership series is an important part of what we do. You can visit Kevineikenberry.com/LDLS which stands for Long Distance Leadership series. And as always you can reach out to myself or Marisa. Questions comments, vicious personal attacks. Anything that you would like to share with us. We are at your service. You can email us or connect through LinkedIn or our LinkedIn page for this show.

    00;19;51;18 - 00;20;13;04
    Wayne Turmel
    For the long distance work life. That's it! Thank you so much. You all know how podcasts work. Please like and subscribe. We hope that if this is your first time with us, you see it. Check out the other episodes and if you are a long time listener, thank you, thank you and be part of the community. Be part of the conversation.

    00;20;13;04 - 00;20;28;04
    Wayne Turmel
    We want to bring you off that you want to know about. So that's it. I am you know, pretty much done with you for the day. Go to. My name is Wayne Turmel. Don't let the weasels get you down.

    00;20;28;06 - 00;20;32;11
    Unknown


    00;20;32;13 - 00;20;33;13
    Unknown



    Featured Guest

    Name: Nathan Kracklauer

    Bio: Nathan Kracklauer is the co-author of "The 12-Week MBA," a groundbreaking book that reimagines business and management education for the 21st century. With over twenty years of experience in learning and development, Nathan has designed and delivered leadership programs for multinational corporations and top-tier business schools. He is passionate about inspiring people to take on management roles with confidence, competence, and compassion. Additionally, Nathan has led product design and development teams, successfully commercializing innovative learning software applications.

    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    01:22 What is the 12-Week MBA?
    03:37 Challenges of Traditional MBAs
    04:52 Importance of Self-Development
    05:19 Key Topics in Remote Leadership Training
    07:56 Credibility of Non-Traditional Learning
    12:36 Learning in Cohorts
    14:54 Balancing Synchronous and Asynchronous Learning
    18:39 Global Perspectives on Learning
    20:28 Closing Thoughts and Resources

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Long-Distance Leadership Series

    If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

     Learn More
    Read More
    Revolutionizing Remote Onboarding with AI: Insights and Innovations
    Ask Wayne Anything, Hybrid Work, Surviving Remote Work, Technology, Working Remotely

    Revolutionizing Remote Onboarding with AI: Insights and Innovations

    Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel dive into the exciting intersection of AI and employee onboarding. They explore how AI tools like Microsoft Copilot and ChatGPT can streamline the onboarding process, enhance personalization, and provide 24/7 support for new hires. Tune in to hear real-life examples, expert insights, and a touch of humor as Marisa and Wayne discuss the future of AI in remote and hybrid work environments. Discover how AI can revolutionize the onboarding experience, making new employees feel valued and accelerating their assimilation into the company culture.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Leverage AI for Time Efficiency: Integrate AI tools like Microsoft Copilot or ChatGPT to handle repetitive onboarding tasks, saving time for both new hires and onboarding managers.
    2. Personalize the Onboarding Experience: Tag and categorize onboarding materials to help AI deliver personalized content that matches the specific skills and needs of new hires.
    3. Implement 24/7 Chatbot Support: Set up chatbots to provide continuous support, ensuring new hires can get answers to their questions even when human supervisors are unavailable.
    4. Utilize Data-Driven Insights: Regularly review data collected by AI tools to identify areas for improvement and make data-driven decisions to enhance the onboarding process.
    5. Balance AI with Human Interaction: Use AI to manage routine tasks, freeing up managers to focus on building personal relationships with new hires, which is crucial for engagement and assimilation.
    6. Integrate AI with Internal Systems: Work with your IT team to connect AI tools with your company’s internal network and resources, ensuring they have access to the relevant data and documents needed for effective onboarding.
    7. Solicit Feedback from New Hires: Regularly gather feedback from new employees about their onboarding experience and use this information to continuously refine and improve the process.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;02 - 00;00;20;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Welcome back to Long Distance Worklife, where we help you lead, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marisa Eikenberry, fellow remote worker. And joining me is remote work expert and my co-host, Wayne Turmel. Hi, Wayne.

    00;00;20;11 - 00;00;24;05
    Wayne Turmel
    Hi. I'm here until I am replaced by our robot overlords.

    00;00;24;08 - 00;00;45;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Every time. but, listeners, so some of you who have been listening to this show for a while, you heard us talk about zoom and some of the AI stuff that's being added to all kinds of different platforms and not just zoom itself. And so we wanted to take a little bit of that and talk about AI and onboarding and how those two could kind of come together.

    00;00;45;22 - 00;00;54;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And in true AI fashion. we decided to get a little meta and ask, I believe it was copilot right wing.

    00;00;55;00 - 00;01;26;29
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. So here's the deal. we have been playing with various things, you know, what is it that we're worried about? Right. And one of the hardest things for remote and hybrid teams is onboarding employees. Right? And I have sat through enough HR, software, webinars, taking the bullets so you don't have to. Dear listener. And one of the things that they say all the time is, well, it can help with onboarding.

    00;01;27;05 - 00;01;29;11
    Wayne Turmel
    And me being me went, okay.

    00;01;29;11 - 00;01;32;16
    Marisa Eikenberry
    How right. Tell me.

    00;01;32;18 - 00;01;50;23
    Wayne Turmel
    Seems a reasonable question. and so, as Marisa says, we we decided let's see what AI has to say about this, and then we will respond. And so, as it turns out, I was using copilot.

    00;01;50;25 - 00;01;51;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;01;51;25 - 00;02;00;07
    Wayne Turmel
    a lot of people who don't work with this day in and day out assume that ChatGPT is the.

    00;02;00;10 - 00;02;01;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Guy who built.

    00;02;01;28 - 00;02;17;10
    Wayne Turmel
    It. It's the one that they know. It's the Kleenex, right? It's their whatever. You're on the generic Xerox of the, AI world. And in fact, I had dinner the other night with somebody who uses three services.

    00;02;17;12 - 00;02;17;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Oh, wow.

    00;02;18;02 - 00;02;48;01
    Wayne Turmel
    That GPT, she uses Google Bard, and she uses Microsoft Copilot, and they all have their charms. So this is not a recommendation. I will tell you that I use copilot for the simple reason that my free ChatGPT account ran out, and I just didn't feel like paying for it. Whereas because I am a Microsoft office 365 user, I get copilot for free.

    00;02;48;04 - 00;03;14;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Done. Sold. Sign me up. The other thing that copilot does, which I like, and this is as close to a recommendation as you're going to get folks. Is that what I like is that copilot gives you the source from which they drew the information. So if it's an article, some of it, for example, you look and go, oh, that's paid content, right?

    00;03;14;04 - 00;03;31;05
    Wayne Turmel
    So I need to pay that. Take that with a grain of salt. I like having the the source content available. so we did. The question was. And I asked very politely because I'm very, of course, machines.

    00;03;31;08 - 00;03;34;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I mean, I said thank you to our echo all the time.

    00;03;34;18 - 00;03;54;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Alexa and I, I am extremely, extremely kind. but the question was, what are five ways I can assist in onboarding new employees? This is a very real problem that people are having, right? And so they came up with five ways.

    00;03;54;17 - 00;04;06;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. And so like I was going to say I'm looking at the first one right now. And one of the first ones it talks about is time efficiency. and how, you know, onboarding takes a while. Like we've all been there.

    00;04;06;09 - 00;04;31;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, it does take a while. And there are even the obvious, even the less obvious things. Like, I know my boss told me this yesterday in the three hour orientation brain dump that I was given, but I can't remember. Where do I find X right? Right. AI is great for hey copilot! Where the heck do I find that?

    00;04;31;12 - 00;04;45;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. Well, and and I know that some people are also doing, like, employee handbooks or something. Also make documentation. So that way you're not asking Susie every five minutes where something is because she might kill you if you ask too many questions.

    00;04;45;28 - 00;05;18;16
    Wayne Turmel
    Now, I actually one of the things that we need to preface this with, because I ran into somebody who was a little confused and not everybody who listens to this clearly is an expert in such things. Some of us who speak on it are barely experts on such things. but it was clear if your company has a paid account and the AI is tied to your internal network and your internal content.

    00;05;18;18 - 00;05;19;18
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;05;19;20 - 00;05;21;07
    Wayne Turmel
    It will find anything.

    00;05;21;10 - 00;05;22;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes.

    00;05;22;10 - 00;05;45;19
    Wayne Turmel
    And if I am a new employee and I don't even know the name of something, and I don't know exactly where it is on the drive, and it's hidden over here. And by the way, you don't have to be a new employee. I frequently, because we have 13 people. I've been here ten years. KPMG, Google Drive is insanely dense with content.

    00;05;45;23 - 00;05;47;11
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. It's massive.

    00;05;47;14 - 00;05;55;21
    Wayne Turmel
    It's massive. And not everybody uses the same thought process as to where that file is.

    00;05;55;22 - 00;05;57;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;05;57;27 - 00;06;12;00
    Wayne Turmel
    and so if I'm looking for what is the password to get on to our corporate zoom account to lead a webinar, we've got several accounts. Right. Where the heck is the password for that?

    00;06;12;02 - 00;06;17;15
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. Because you might look for it in a place that wasn't where I put it.

    00;06;17;18 - 00;06;48;10
    Wayne Turmel
    I did not know that that information is on the tech team folder. Yeah. Not what I would have thought it'd be under instructor materials, because the instructor might need to know where how to get on. so that kind of thing is great. And when you're a new employee, when you're struggling to learn stuff, you don't always know the question to ask, and you're afraid to ask the question because, you know, somebody just told you this yesterday, right?

    00;06;48;13 - 00;06;51;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Like I said, you don't ask too many questions or Susie will kill you.

    00;06;51;25 - 00;06;59;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, exactly. so that's actually a really, really powerful tool just right there.

    00;06;59;12 - 00;06;59;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;07;00;02 - 00;07;10;19
    Wayne Turmel
    The ability to do that. Now, again, you know, if you if you are not if you're AI is not connected to the network, you're going to get somebody else's.

    00;07;10;22 - 00;07;11;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;07;11;10 - 00;07;29;04
    Wayne Turmel
    And you're going to get all kinds of useless information. Right. But that's so yes, your your organization. In order to optimize, I must have it reading your network or you're not going to get the value of this.

    00;07;29;07 - 00;07;44;06
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Well, and real quick, we've talked about this too in our previous episode where you were talking about, you know, my boss just said this in a meeting the other day. If you have, like I set up for like zoom or something like that, it can give you action items or, you know, here's the main points of this meeting.

    00;07;44;06 - 00;07;51;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And so you might be able to consult that. and, you know, instead of asking your boss again.

    00;07;51;07 - 00;08;02;03
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, absolutely. And especially in Microsoft Teams, you can punch in the date of the meeting and assuming your IT department has set it up, actually find that stuff.

    00;08;02;06 - 00;08;02;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Oh, that's.

    00;08;02;25 - 00;08;15;08
    Wayne Turmel
    What what I have started doing is on sales calls is I will say to the customer, do you mind if I run this in the background? Because it's going to take way better notes than I can.

    00;08;15;11 - 00;08;22;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Oh yeah. Yeah. And then you get to focus on the conversation. You don't have to focus on making sure that you've typed everything exactly right.

    00;08;22;17 - 00;08;48;24
    Wayne Turmel
    And by the way, it does a really, really good job. Yeah. everything I've done, teams, zoom. you know, any I that's attached to WebEx at any I that's attached to that has been trained really well to take good notes. And you will remember who gets what action item and who raised this issue and like that.

    00;08;49;01 - 00;08;50;03
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;08;50;05 - 00;08;58;00
    Wayne Turmel
    so for time efficiency first thing. Yeah. Copilot told me time efficiency. the answer is yes.

    00;08;58;02 - 00;08;58;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Okay.

    00;08;59;00 - 00;09;00;20
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay. You dig that?

    00;09;00;23 - 00;09;18;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    So what about, the next one it had was personalization. So it said you can utilize AI and machine learning. Onboarding programs can be tailored to match the specific skill set and needs of a new hire and personalized training and materials and resources. I'm failing to see your AI helps with this, but maybe you can.

    00;09;18;29 - 00;09;27;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, that like everything else. I mean, you and I were talking earlier. You know, the answer you get depends on the question that you ask.

    00;09;27;21 - 00;09;29;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Oh, of course.

    00;09;29;12 - 00;10;20;03
    Wayne Turmel
    So if as you are creating orientation materials, if you are creating an employee handbook and you label things as or you tag them as useful for beginners, useful for onboarding, useful for orientation, for somebody who's looking for that will find what they're looking for versus somebody else who's just looking for general information. personalization. What I can do this is both the beauty and the terrifying thing, okay, is the more you use it and the more it knows you, the more it will find what you are looking for or what is useful to you at the beginning.

    00;10;20;03 - 00;10;38;21
    Wayne Turmel
    It's going to be in general, new hires want to know this, right? It's going to be more specific. The machine will learn. Oh, this is Wayne. He's in accounting. He works with these particular clients. And so the searches will get infinitely more granular.

    00;10;38;27 - 00;10;40;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, that makes sense.

    00;10;40;12 - 00;11;12;18
    Wayne Turmel
    So when they say personalization, it's not. You know, I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave. It's not like that. Right? We're not we're not going there. And if you are under 40 or not a nerd, it's a movie reference. Just stick with us. Well, so what is this personal personalization? That's what it's talking about. The more it interfaces with you and learns who you are, the more it will exclude extraneous information and give you the stuff that is really relevant.

    00;11;12;25 - 00;11;22;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, well, it sounds like two from the, basically someone has to set up the stuff ahead of time for the AI to even see it correctly.

    00;11;22;28 - 00;11;38;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Everything is in the setup and where that becomes really important is actually the third thing that, yeah, it came up with, which is 24/7 support, which is all about chat bots.

    00;11;38;18 - 00;11;39;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;11;39;23 - 00;11;57;06
    Wayne Turmel
    And you know, your boss is not always going to be available to you when you need them. you know, the person you're asking may be in Singapore and when you're starting your day, they're going to bed. I mean, there's realistic we need information when we need it.

    00;11;57;08 - 00;12;20;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? And we know how powerful chat bots can be anyway. I know that we have one on the desk site right now. so just personality testing.com. And for those of you who have heard us talk about this before, like our support team is two people and we have to sleep sometime. so the chat bots been really helpful because we've put stuff into it to say, here's how we say this.

    00;12;20;09 - 00;12;29;16
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Here's all these videos, here's all these transcripts. So it's learning off of us, and it can answer a lot of these questions that we're asleep and can't answer it right now.

    00;12;29;16 - 00;13;00;04
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and I just came back from a conference of HR and learning technology and oh my gosh, like, even since last year's ATD conference, which is the last time I walked in Expo floor and saw this stuff, they are so much more sophisticated and personalized and you can set the level of formality. You know, do you want it's super friendly and chatty or do you want, you know, give me the facts and give me what I'm looking for.

    00;13;00;06 - 00;13;22;27
    Wayne Turmel
    And incredibly sophisticated and deep searches and the ability to figure out what you meant to say, which is not, you know, if you go into Google right now, if you go into Google and you say, I want to know this, and I can't think of an example. Yeah, but I want to know this. It will give you exactly what you ask for.

    00;13;23;00 - 00;13;26;06
    Wayne Turmel
    But that may not be what you really want to know.

    00;13;26;09 - 00;13;30;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. You're going to call it X. We're actually called something else.

    00;13;30;22 - 00;13;46;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. If I call it, where is the customer service file for x, y, z customer. And your organization calls it a, service response file.

    00;13;46;03 - 00;13;49;22
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;13;49;24 - 00;13;51;09
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, a Google get a.

    00;13;51;13 - 00;13;52;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Couple.

    00;13;52;06 - 00;14;30;16
    Wayne Turmel
    Engine is it's going to struggle a little bit to come up with what you need. Whereas what I'll give you a, a non work example because I just stumbled across this and you know some of the people who listen to this know that I write novels in my spare time. And so I was because I've got a book coming out, I was trying to figure out some marketing materials and they and I said, you give me five comparable titles to the Johnny Lycan Werewolf Pi series.

    00;14;30;19 - 00;14;31;23
    Marisa Eikenberry


    00;14;31;25 - 00;14;53;19
    Wayne Turmel
    And the results were really odd, and they were really kind of uneven. And some were historical fiction and some were this somewhere that So I took a second shot at it. And I said give me comparable titles to the urban fantasy Detective Noir or Johnny Lycan Werewolf Pi series.

    00;14;53;26 - 00;14;54;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;14;54;20 - 00;15;07;19
    Wayne Turmel
    I got exactly the seven. comp titles which were most popular. Most recent. Exactly the list I needed.

    00;15;07;22 - 00;15;14;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, I mean, we've known for a long. So that's specific. You get it? It helps a lot.

    00;15;14;28 - 00;15;22;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, but A.I. is getting a lot better at. Oh, I see what you were trying to say.

    00;15;22;04 - 00;15;22;14
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;15;22;21 - 00;15;25;07
    Wayne Turmel
    So it's getting better at that.

    00;15;25;09 - 00;15;26;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And it's like, oh, human.

    00;15;26;20 - 00;15;41;01
    Wayne Turmel
    It's not that. Well, it's funny because a lot of us look at chat bots as, oh, great, I have to deal with a chat bot because they can't be bothered hiring a human who can actually interact with me.

    00;15;41;03 - 00;15;41;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And that's not necessary.

    00;15;41;28 - 00;16;00;06
    Wayne Turmel
    And there is some of that. Yeah. To be fair, to be fair, there is some of that going on. but it it is more than that. You know, having a human to answer your questions is great until you've actually dealt with a human.

    00;16;00;08 - 00;16;02;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes.

    00;16;02;07 - 00;16;25;18
    Wayne Turmel
    There is no guarantee you're going to get what you're looking for. and then, of course, the fourth thing was data driven insights, which is right. It will find the if the data is out there, it will find it. And crunch it and give it to you, probably in ways that you don't expect. But that feedback, the accuracy and the speed of that feedback.

    00;16;25;21 - 00;16;54;16
    Wayne Turmel
    And then you can go back and say, tell me more about this is going to be just impressive and huge. which brings us to the last thing that copilot said, which is it's about engagement. AI can create a modern and engaging onboarding experience, making new employees feel valued and accelerating their assimilation into the company culture. And I say,

    00;16;54;19 - 00;17;05;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I was going to say this one sounds like we're right. Waving a flag like we're with you of, you know, four. But this one might.

    00;17;05;24 - 00;17;17;07
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. It's like, does this help engagement? And I'm still not entirely sure that people's default should be to the machines.

    00;17;17;10 - 00;17;19;09
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;17;19;12 - 00;17;43;20
    Wayne Turmel
    now, some of this may be just cranky old white guy who's saying, well, I'll use it when I need it, and the rest of the time, you know, let me interact with humans. But there is, especially in the onboarding process, which let's not forget, this is what we're talking about here, right? The onboarding process is where the relationships get built.

    00;17;43;20 - 00;18;17;18
    Wayne Turmel
    It's where people decide the level of engagement that they're going to have with their employer and their coworkers and their team. And while there may be people who say, I would rather deal with copilot than Bob because Bob is mean to me in meetings, realistically, I think we need to not default, especially in the very early days, weeks, months of, of a, new hire or bringing people on or orientation.

    00;18;17;23 - 00;18;22;23
    Wayne Turmel
    I think we still need to get them to connect with the people.

    00;18;22;25 - 00;18;24;12
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely.

    00;18;24;14 - 00;18;52;27
    Wayne Turmel
    And and so we need to be really, really leery of that. That's kind of where I'm so. So that was it. We asked, hey, give us five ways I can assist in onboarding. And with all the caveats that we have mentioned. And they are not to be underestimated. Right. There's five ways they can help. Four of the five I don't disagree with.

    00;18;52;29 - 00;19;06;21
    Wayne Turmel
    I think they need to be done thoughtfully. They need to be done intentionally. All of that good stuff. The engagement piece, I don't know, but what else is I going to say?

    00;19;06;24 - 00;19;08;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. Exactly. Well, and we.

    00;19;08;25 - 00;19;17;29
    Wayne Turmel
    Asked the I. Yeah. It's like if you come to me and say, you know, what do you do with this? I'm going to say, well, let me help you here.

    00;19;17;29 - 00;19;18;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;19;18;12 - 00;19;34;17
    Wayne Turmel
    And who doesn't want Wayne helping them for corn sake? Well, oh, how how. Okay, here's here's something I doesn't do. It's. I don't get snarky. It doesn't do sarcasm worth a darn.

    00;19;34;20 - 00;20;00;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I was like, I can't get snarky. It depends on how you run the Gpt3. But but listeners, if you've worked with any sort of onboarding things with AI or if you've seen it in your company or stuff, please let us know, because we would love to hear from you on that. And Wayne, thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for putting this into copilot, because my default is ChatGPT.

    00;20;00;09 - 00;20;21;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    so but this was a really great conversation. I'm really excited to continue talking more about AI and how it can help with remote work. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to Long-Distance Work Life. For show notes, transcripts, and other resources. Make sure to visit Long Distance Work life.com. If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes while you're there.

    00;20;21;19 - 00;20;36;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Be sure to like and review! This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or suggest another episode or another topic for Wayne and I to tackle in another episode.

    00;20;36;25 - 00;20;47;03
    Wayne Turmel
    And for the record, we like nonviolent, respectful, counter opinions. Don't be afraid to, tell us where you think we're wrong.

    00;20;47;06 - 00;21;10;06
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because we would love to do an episode about that. And in some cases, we may try to change your mind. We'll see. But if you want to know more about how to work with and manage remote teams, please check out the Long Distance Leadership Series, which you can learn more about at Kevin eikenberry.com/l d l s thank you for joining us.

    00;21;10;06 - 00;21;17;26
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And as Wayne likes to say, don't let the seasons get you down. Hey.

    00;21;17;28 - 00;21;18;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You.


    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    00:45 AI in Onboarding Overview
    01:26 Challenges in Remote Onboarding
    03:14 Advantages of Microsoft Copilot
    04:31 AI for Time Efficiency
    09:00 Personalization with AI
    11:12 24/7 Support Through Chatbots
    13:22 Data-Driven Insights
    16:00 Enhancing Engagement with AI
    19:08 Final Thoughts and Listener Feedback

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Long-Distance Leadership Series

    If you want to dive deeper into the strategies and tools for effectively managing remote teams, check out the Long-Distance Leadership Series by The Kevin Eikenberry Group. This comprehensive series offers valuable insights and practical advice on leading remote and hybrid teams with confidence and success. From mastering virtual communication to fostering team engagement, the Long-Distance Leadership Series has everything you need to become a more effective remote leader. Start transforming your remote leadership skills today!

     Learn More
    Read More
    Navigating Return-to-Office Strategies in the U.S. and Europe
    Ask Wayne Anything, Surviving Remote Work, Working Remotely

    Navigating Return-to-Office Strategies in the U.S. and Europe

    Marisa Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel explore the intriguing differences in return-to-office strategies between the U.S. and Europe. Dive into a detailed discussion on why European workers are heading back to their offices at a higher rate compared to their American counterparts. Wayne shares insights from his extensive research and personal anecdotes, shedding light on cultural, geographical, and infrastructural factors that influence these varying approaches. Whether you're a remote worker, a manager in a hybrid environment, or just curious about the future of work, this episode offers valuable perspectives on adapting to post-pandemic work life on both sides of the Atlantic.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Embrace Flexibility: Companies should consider the diverse needs and contexts of their global workforce when designing work policies.
    2. Understand Cultural Differences: Recognizing and respecting cultural differences in work habits can enhance productivity and worker satisfaction.
    3. Plan for Long-Term Strategies: Rather than reactive measures, thoughtful, strategic planning for hybrid and remote work can lead to more sustainable business practices.

    View Full Transcript

    00;00;08;00 - 00;00;18;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Welcome back to Long Distance Work, where we help you meet, work and thrive in remote and hybrid teams. I'm Marissa Eikenberry, a fellow remote worker. And joining me is my co-host and remote work expert, Wayne Trammell. Hi, Wayne.

    00;00;19;01 - 00;00;20;26
    Wayne Turmel
    Hello, Marissa. How are you?

    00;00;20;28 - 00;00;22;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I'm great. How are you?

    00;00;22;08 - 00;00;27;19
    Wayne Turmel
    I am very well, and I'm actually kind of geeked about the show this week.

    00;00;27;21 - 00;00;55;01
    Marisa Eikenberry
    As you should be. So listeners, we are actually we're talking about Return to Office, which is not the first time that we've ever talked about this before. However, the spin that we're doing today is that we're talking about the differences between how the US handled it and how Europe has handled it or is handling it now. So, Wayne, I want to start off with, by what are the main differences that you've already observed between the U.S. and European countries and how they're handling return to office?

    00;00;55;04 - 00;01;08;17
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah, it's interesting because you can kind of get stuck in. And Americans in particular are really bad about this, where, you know, if it doesn't center around the Statue of Liberty, it didn't happen right here, right.

    00;01;08;17 - 00;01;10;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Eastern time zone or bust. Right?

    00;01;10;15 - 00;01;34;02
    Wayne Turmel
    Right, exactly. And so I've been writing for management issues out of the U.K. for a billion years. It feels like. And I was doing some work for them and some research. And I was fascinated to find that return to office is much more prevalent in Europe and in a lot of other countries. Matter of fact, the US is severely different.

    00;01;34;05 - 00;01;55;29
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay, in the, number of people, just as a rough number, 70% of people in the UK have gone back to predominantly return to office or not in the UK, but in Europe. Okay, going back to 70% return to office basically full time in the US it's more like 50%.

    00;01;56;01 - 00;01;56;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;01;57;03 - 00;02;08;18
    Wayne Turmel
    and we're talking about those obviously who can work remotely, of course. Right. I mean, there was this whole thing everybody went home during Covid. Well, no, it was about a third of the population.

    00;02;08;23 - 00;02;10;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. It feels like a lot more people.

    00;02;10;18 - 00;02;14;14
    Wayne Turmel
    It feels like a lot more than that because we hang with who we hang with.

    00;02;14;17 - 00;02;14;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right?

    00;02;15;17 - 00;02;33;10
    Wayne Turmel
    but 70 to 50 is a pretty significant difference. And so I being me, you know, I remember at five, my grandmother actually stopped babysitting me for a while because I wouldn't stop asking why.

    00;02;33;12 - 00;02;35;02
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I could act like I'm surprised.

    00;02;35;05 - 00;02;40;00
    Wayne Turmel
    And I still to this day.

    00;02;40;02 - 00;02;45;05
    Wayne Turmel
    And for those of you listening in audio only, it is a very short face. Oh.

    00;02;45;08 - 00;02;46;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely.

    00;02;47;00 - 00;02;52;21
    Wayne Turmel
    So anyway, I started geeking out and going down the rabbit hole and I figured this was a worthy discussion.

    00;02;52;23 - 00;03;09;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely. So, okay, we've already discussed 70 to 50. Like that's a really big deal. So why is it that Europe seems to be having way more return to office people than we have? I mean, is it just people fighting back and be like, no, I want to work from home? Or is there something else?

    00;03;09;28 - 00;03;38;00
    Wayne Turmel
    No, I think there are. I'm going to say three because I'm doing this off the top of my head, okay? B and there are sub reasons to those three reasons, but there are three things that strike me as most obvious. Number one is that most people in European cities live much closer to where they work. Europeans in general do not commute long distances to go to work.

    00;03;38;04 - 00;03;45;04
    Wayne Turmel
    And by the way, when we talk about the European numbers, there's a giant asterix there that says everywhere but London, right.

    00;03;45;04 - 00;03;47;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You and I have talked about this offline.

    00;03;47;06 - 00;04;15;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. Well, we'll we'll talk about why London is the outlier in a moment. But the fact is that most people in Europe do not have the hellish commutes that Americans have. and they are much more willing to use public transportation and all kinds of things. So as a result, the commute isn't as onerous as it is for North Americans.

    00;04;15;26 - 00;04;16;16
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That makes sense.

    00;04;16;18 - 00;04;36;21
    Wayne Turmel
    So, you know, the number one reason Americans give for why do I want flexible with because the traffic is killing me, and getting to work makes me miserable. And grumpy and grumpy before I get there. And by the way, when I was home with Covid, I was saving $5,000 a year. And that's a real number for a lot of people.

    00;04;36;26 - 00;04;55;24
    Wayne Turmel
    So the commute is a big part of that. So the commute comes out of the equation. The second thing, and this is very controversial, and I just talked about this at a conference this week and got some I got some hallelujahs and a lot of uncomfortable squirming in seats.

    00;04;56;01 - 00;04;59;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Oh, I can't wait for the podcast comments on this one. Then.

    00;04;59;20 - 00;05;32;12
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, it basically comes down to Americans view hybrid work in particular, and the right to work from home as a perk. Okay, it's a perk. It's something they want. And the reason is Americans in particular do not get a lot of perks in terms of work. That is, if you think about the average European worker, their health care is paid for, their education is essentially paid for or extremely cheap.

    00;05;33;07 - 00;05;38;01
    Wayne Turmel
    there are laws about how many hours you can work and not work much longer.

    00;05;38;01 - 00;05;39;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Vacation time, you.

    00;05;39;06 - 00;05;52;13
    Wayne Turmel
    Know, more vacation time. All of those things are if you get them through an American company, you get them through negotiation and then bargaining and threatening to quit and all kinds of stuff. Right?

    00;05;52;13 - 00;05;54;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, they aren't inherently there.

    00;05;54;07 - 00;06;18;21
    Wayne Turmel
    So there is. Whereas companies are willing to say, yeah, you know what? We're not going to give you health care or, do any of that other cool stuff. But if you want to work in your jammies a couple of days a week, we're good with that, right? And so that's part of it. Right? and that goes to the fact that the work life balance in Europe is generally better.

    00;06;18;21 - 00;06;40;00
    Wayne Turmel
    People are better at I go to work and I work, and when I leave work, I leave work, and I don't think about it so that they tend to enjoy the time they're there. They take that eight hours and they work, and they get their social contact with their friends, and they work hard and they do their jobs and then it's done.

    00;06;40;02 - 00;06;41;17
    Marisa Eikenberry
    And then they go home and do it all.

    00;06;41;17 - 00;06;53;22
    Wayne Turmel
    Over, and then they go, so, you know, the ability to do that is already there. They don't put the same value on it that American workers have put on it.

    00;06;53;25 - 00;06;58;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah. We're it's almost like our, our identity and our careers sometimes become our identity in many ways.

    00;06;58;18 - 00;07;27;19
    Wayne Turmel
    Well it does and you know, we can get deeper into that. But the third reason I'm trying to stick to three, because I said I would, I remembered the third reason as we were just talking, which is the infrastructure for working from home doesn't exist in a lot of places. And I noticed this at the beginning of Covid, where it was really problematic getting people in Asia, for example, to work from home.

    00;07;27;22 - 00;07;52;19
    Wayne Turmel
    And then I realized why, if you live in Tokyo, you're living in an apartment the size of my garage with no distinct room to work in. Right? You're trying to cut million dollar sales deals on the end of your bed, and that doesn't really work. And it's the same thing. Housing in Europe, especially in the cities, tends to be smaller apartments.

    00;07;52;19 - 00;08;04;23
    Wayne Turmel
    Even the houses are smaller than we're traditionally used to here in America. And so the idea of having a home office is just physically not possible.

    00;08;04;25 - 00;08;05;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, no, that makes for a.

    00;08;05;27 - 00;08;06;17
    Wayne Turmel
    Lot of people.

    00;08;06;18 - 00;08;07;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    I thought about that.

    00;08;07;25 - 00;08;32;08
    Wayne Turmel
    I hadn't either. This is why we go down rabbit holes. Because we learn stuff right? so if you think about just those three things, right, the, the structure of the commute going to work, isn't that bad. Well, okay. You know, it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. It ceases to become a bargaining chip when you're talking to your boss.

    00;08;32;10 - 00;08;53;10
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, if you don't have a lot of perks, it this has become. And by the way, flexible work is the number one thing people are asking for when they apply for jobs. Yeah. So this is far more important here. There is a value on flexible work that just hasn't caught on in much of the rest of the world.

    00;08;53;14 - 00;09;19;15
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and then the third thing is, even if I am working from home, can I be as productive? Can I do the same job? And the answer is maybe not. It's not quite as convenient and simple as it is in North America. So those are kind of the obvious things. And there are some really interesting long term impacts on this which we can get to in a moment.

    00;09;19;18 - 00;09;22;25
    Wayne Turmel
    I did mention that the outlier is London.

    00;09;22;27 - 00;09;41;23
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. Well, and I did want to go into something robust before you get into London. So and unfortunately I don't have the data with me right this second. But wasn't there something I want to say? Switzerland, maybe Sweden, that it was like work from home was like a protected thing. Like it was like you had a right to work from home.

    00;09;41;26 - 00;09;44;22
    Marisa Eikenberry
    How is that different than some of the other stuff that we're seeing?

    00;09;44;25 - 00;10;12;22
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, what's happening is that as a result of Covid, there was a big rush to codify things like how many hours can your boss expect you to work when you're not in the office? Do the same labor laws that protect you in the workplace. Protect you when you work from home? there was all kinds of that stuff that was kind of rushing to judgment on a lot of that.

    00;10;12;22 - 00;10;39;17
    Wayne Turmel
    And this the countries that you would expect to do that, right. The companies, the countries that put a large value on work as part of the social experiment. Right. Switzerland. Okay, Sweden, the Nordic countries, you would expect that that's where the first of this would come. I think a lot of that has kind of come to nothing, because so relatively few people are taking advantage of it now.

    00;10;39;19 - 00;10;39;25
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Or.

    00;10;39;25 - 00;10;55;27
    Wayne Turmel
    When they do, when they do, they're kind of going along with the stealth work thing, which is going to work for a short period of time. Eventually, people will start running afoul of labor laws and and things, and, you know, somebody will always ruin it for everybody else.

    00;10;55;29 - 00;10;59;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? Like that happens all the time.

    00;10;59;21 - 00;11;17;20
    Wayne Turmel
    You know, it's important to remember that every law was put in place, and it made sense to the person who wrote it because they were trying to solve a specific problem. Right, right. so it's interesting to see where it's going to shake out.

    00;11;17;22 - 00;11;22;13
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right. And so going back to your thing about London, so how was London different?

    00;11;22;16 - 00;11;36;23
    Wayne Turmel
    London is really expensive and really big. And as a result the commutes are basically London as a work environment is much more like New York or Chicago.

    00;11;36;26 - 00;11;37;19
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Okay.

    00;11;37;22 - 00;11;39;24
    Wayne Turmel
    Than it is Amsterdam or Paris.

    00;11;39;26 - 00;11;41;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Okay, that makes sense.

    00;11;42;05 - 00;11;57;10
    Wayne Turmel
    the problems that you've got with stupid expensive housing and, you know, and you can't even drive your city, your car into the City of London without paying an entry fee every day. It's the only city that has a coverage charge.

    00;11;57;12 - 00;11;57;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Oh my gosh.

    00;11;58;17 - 00;12;18;06
    Wayne Turmel
    you know, which again, was instituted to solve a specific problem. But there are unintended consequences to this. But basically, London doesn't fit into the European model. the third reason, which also makes sense in London, is that there are so many international companies headquartered there.

    00;12;18;07 - 00;12;18;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;12;18;21 - 00;12;19;05
    Wayne Turmel
    That.

    00;12;19;08 - 00;12;20;04
    Marisa Eikenberry
    They're already doing.

    00;12;20;10 - 00;12;34;04
    Wayne Turmel
    More working. Yeah, well, they're doing flexible work in times of hours and and whatever. And if I have to be in the office at 9:00, I don't want to still be there for the 9:00 at night. Call with the team in Singapore.

    00;12;34;07 - 00;12;37;16
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely. And I don't blame them for that right now.

    00;12;37;16 - 00;12;45;26
    Wayne Turmel
    The impact of all this is really interesting. One of the things is that European cities are already built.

    00;12;46;03 - 00;12;46;28
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yes.

    00;12;47;01 - 00;13;22;07
    Wayne Turmel
    They've been there a long time. The footprint of the city is what it is, and as a result, there is less, building going on all the time in these places. And the, the if you look at the square footage of business properties available again, it is something like it's a vacancy rate of somewhere between 7 and 10% versus some American cities, and London, where it's getting close to 50.

    00;13;22;09 - 00;13;43;16
    Wayne Turmel
    Like even if there are people in a building, they there may not be people on all floors because businesses have kind of shrunk. And some of that is remote work and people not coming in. Frankly, some of it is automation, and we need less people than we needed ten years ago to do the same job.

    00;13;43;17 - 00;13;44;08
    Marisa Eikenberry
    That makes sense too.

    00;13;44;11 - 00;14;02;25
    Wayne Turmel
    So all of these factors I found absolutely fascinating. and if you are the CEO of a company, if you're thinking about how do we come up with a policy that makes sense? If we are an international company, how do we come up with a policy that makes sense?

    00;14;02;28 - 00;14;03;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;14;03;24 - 00;14;15;16
    Wayne Turmel
    This is all stuff we have to take into consideration. And one of the things I wanted to do was just bring those facts out there and throw them on the table and go, I don't know what you all are going to do with this, but there you are.

    00;14;15;19 - 00;14;31;24
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? So with all of this, like looking forward, what trends do you predict will emerge in the workplace because of this? Like, do you think that we're going to continue to see more return to office in Europe? Do you think that we're going to stay about the same in the US?

    00;14;31;25 - 00;14;53;07
    Wayne Turmel
    I think we will gradually see a rise in remote work, at least part time. We're going to see a rise in hybrid work, in, in all corners of the world. I think we're going to see that, but it's going to be more gradual. It wasn't like the sudden boom in remote. Right? Right.

    00;14;53;10 - 00;14;54;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right.

    00;14;54;08 - 00;15;22;15
    Wayne Turmel
    I think we're going to see that. I think we're still seeing attention in North America. And I said this and got more hallelujahs than not the other day when I said, you know, in America, because of this idea of using it as a perk instead of looking at it from the standpoint of the business sense, saying what's best for the business, it's kind of it's not so much a strategy as it is a hostage negotiation.

    00;15;22;18 - 00;15;47;25
    Wayne Turmel
    Okay. Where the where the company says, how much can we make them come into the office before they quit or won't come work for us? And the workers are going, how much can I avoid going into the office and still draw a paycheck? And they've kind of settled on whatever formula two days, three days a week that they've settled on, which is not really sustainable.

    00;15;47;25 - 00;15;50;25
    Wayne Turmel
    And more importantly, it's not strategic.

    00;15;50;27 - 00;15;53;12
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Right? Yeah. There's no rhyme for it.

    00;15;53;15 - 00;16;20;00
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, there's a rhyme and a reason. It's just, you know, it's it's vulgar on poetry, which means nothing to anybody who hasn't read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. But it is poetry, and it is the worst poetry in the universe. So that's really where we are. I think we've hit this compromise and we're kind of dealing with it, and long term it's not going to progress and improve.

    00;16;20;12 - 00;16;44;11
    Wayne Turmel
    until we get strategic about what's going to happen is and somebody actually said this, I can't remember who said it, but it was a quote and it hit all the business papers said this whole return to office remote work, hybrid work thing would just go away. What we need is 20% unemployment, okay? Because then people will be so darn glad to have a job, they'll just shut up and show up.

    00;16;44;13 - 00;16;48;27
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah, I feel like I've also heard that quote before or something like it.

    00;16;49;03 - 00;17;10;09
    Wayne Turmel
    Yeah. So yeah, that's that's where we are. And and I thought this was a worthy discussion. Right. It's like you will there be kind of a growing acceptance of hybrid work when people realize they aren't going to have to spend all day in their 500 square foot flat? Probably.

    00;17;10;11 - 00;17;10;20
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Yeah.

    00;17;10;26 - 00;17;28;27
    Wayne Turmel
    Right. will Americans get the hang of it and figure it out? Maybe. but their conversations worth having, and you can't make those decisions without context. Absolutely. So that's what we hope. That's what we hope we did today was give you some context.

    00;17;28;29 - 00;17;48;07
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely. And I'll make sure to link to your management issues. article inside of our show notes. So for people who want to read even more about this, it will be there. And listeners, thank you so much for listening to the long distance work life or show notes, transcripts, and other resources. Make sure to visit Long Distance Work-Life dot com.

    00;17;48;09 - 00;18;06;21
    Marisa Eikenberry
    If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss any future episodes. And while you're there, be sure to like and review. This helps us know what you love about our show. Feel free to contact us via email or LinkedIn with the links in our show notes, and let us know that you listen to this episode, or suggest another topic for Wayne and I to tackle in a future episode.

    00;18;06;23 - 00;18;08;00
    Marisa Eikenberry
    We'd love to hear from you.

    00;18;08;02 - 00;18;34;14
    Wayne Turmel
    Well, and one of the things, if you're kind of asking these questions about what's it like leading remotely, how is leading a hybrid team different? We would urge you to take advantage of our open enrollment programs. The long Distance Leadership Series runs a couple of times a year. You can find out more on the Kevin eikenberry.com site. We would love to have you or talk to you about delivering that content inside your organization.

    00;18;34;16 - 00;18;36;01
    Wayne Turmel
    Or it's a bring us home.

    00;18;36;04 - 00;19;03;18
    Marisa Eikenberry
    Absolutely. And you can learn more about that at Kevin eikenberry.com/ldl s. Thank you so much for joining us, Wayne. Thank you for saving me for a second right there. And as Wayne likes to say, don't let police escort you down. Hey.

    00;19;03;20 - 00;19;04;05
    Marisa Eikenberry
    You.


    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    01:34 Statistical Differences
    03:09 Culture and Structural Reasons
    06:18 Work-Life Balance and Infrastructure
    14:15 Future Trends in Work
    17:10 Conclusion

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Order The Long-Distance Team

    Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

     Order
    Read More
    Guests, Hybrid Work, Leadership, Working Remotely

    Navigating Hybrid Havoc with John Forsythe

    Wayne Turmel sits down with John Forsythe of Deloitte Consulting's Human Capital Group. They dive into Deloitte's Human Capital Trend Report 2024, exploring the evolving landscape of hybrid work and what it means for senior leaders. John shares his insights on the push and pull of hybrid arrangements, the importance of flexibility, and how AI is shaping the future of work. Whether you're a team leader or an executive, this episode is packed with practical advice on how to navigate the challenges and opportunities of remote and hybrid work.

    Key Takeaways

    1. Build Trust in Remote Work: Focus on measurable outcomes to build trust in remote productivity.
    2. Promote Micro-Cultures: Encourage local team leaders to set their own work cadences.
    3. Enhance Worker Agency: Involve team members in decision-making to foster ownership.
    4. Leverage AI for Efficiency: Automate mundane tasks, focusing human efforts on creativity and problem-solving.
    5. Align Hybrid Work with Talent Lifecycle: Be intentional about in-person interactions for key lifecycle moments.
    6. Pilot Before Policy: Test and iterate hybrid strategies before rolling out policies.
    7. Invest in Manager Development: Provide training and resources for managers to lead in hybrid environments.
    8. Explore Emerging Technologies: Experiment with AR, VR, and new collaborative technologies.
    9. Prioritize Intentional Leadership: Create a positive culture focused on helping employees thrive.

    Timestamps

    00:00 Introduction
    01:14 Hybrid Work Concerns
    02:26 Together When It Matters
    05:09 Flexibility as a Competitive Advantage
    07:16 Autonomy and Accountability
    09:09 Worker Agency
    11:14 AI and Hybrid Work
    14:00 Talent Lifecycle
    16:16 Think Like a Researcher
    18:10 Technology and Collaboration
    19:47 Conclusion

    Featured Guest

    Name: John Forsythe

    Bio: John is a managing director in Deloitte Consulting's Federal Organizational Transformation service line. With over 25 years of business management experience, including 17 years in federal government consulting, John specializes in driving broad organizational change. His expertise spans organizational consolidation, culture change, strategic change, communications, leadership alignment, and executive coaching. John has also advised clients across the federal sector, focusing on the defense sector, including USTRANSCOM, the Navy, and the Wounded Warrior Recovery Care Program.

    Related Episodes

    Additional Resources

    Order The Long-Distance Team

    Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

     Order
    Read More